Debates of 17 Jun 2009

MADAM SPEAKER
PRAYERS 11 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker 11 a.m.
Hon Members, we commence with the Correction of Votes and Proceedings of Tuesday, 16th June, 2009. Pages 1 6 - [Pause.]
Mr. I. K. Asiamah 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
yesterday not only was I visibly present, I was ably present in this august House but I have been marked absent on page 6, item 4, number 9.
Madam Speaker 11 a.m.
Thank you, Hon
Member, it will be corrected.
Mr. Frederick Opare-Ansah 11 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, page 6, item 4 number 18, Frimpong, Kofi (Kwabre East), he was absent with permission on a delegation. In fact, his permission was actually forwarded to your office, so if he can be appropriately captured as being absent with permission.
Thank you.
Mr. Richard Akuoko Adiyia 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, on page 6, item 4, number 4; Adiyia, Akuoko Richard (Ahafo Ano North), I was present in the Chamber yesterday but I have been marked absent.
Mr. Wisdom Gidisu 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I was present yesterday but I have been marked absent.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Page 6 and what number?
Mr. Wisdom Gidisu 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, page 6, item 4, number 19.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Page 7 -- [Inter- ruption.]
Prof. (Emeritus] S. K. Amoako:
Madam Speaker, page 7, item 7 11:10 a.m.
“The Member for North Dayi and Minister for Women and Childrens' Affairs…” The apostrophe should come before the “s” not after “s.” It should read “Children's.”
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Pages 8, 9, 10, 11 -- [Interruption.]
Mr. J. B. Aidoo 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, page 11, item 3, number xvi, the title to the name “Mr. Regina Vondee”, I think it is wrong. I think it should rather be “Mrs.” Or “Ms.” The appropriate title should be given to her. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Members, the Votes and Proceedings of Tuesday, 16th June, 2009 as corrected be adopted as the true record of proceedings.
We have the Official Report of Tuesday, 16th June, 2009; any corrections?
Mr. J. B. Aidoo 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I
refer you to column 609, and under my submission, paragraph 3, the first line, “These problems are not…” It should be “now”. It should read: “These problems are now being compounded . . .” The word should be “now” and not “not.”
Then in the same paragraph, line seven, the word there should be “tend” and not “turn”. It should read: “…problems tend to…” Then on column 612, the first paragraph, line four, “Not only children engage in . . .”, the word is “engaged” so “d” should be added to the word “engage” there. It should read “.… engaged in Galamsey”.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Members, the
Official Report of Tuesday, 16th June, 2009 as corrected represents the true record of proceedings.
Item 3 - Questions. The Question marked 6, stands in the name of the Hon Benito Owusu-Bio, Member of Parliament for Atwima-Nwabiagya. Hon Member, can you ask your Question now?
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 11:10 a.m.
MINISTRY OF LOCAL 11:10 a.m.
GOVERNMENT 11:10 a.m.
AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT 11:10 a.m.
Mr. Owusu-Bio 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I would like to know from the Minister what is the status of the remaining 6. This is because 36 have been distributed and it is left with 6.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the 6 remaining graders are still being distri- buted in line with the -- [Interruptions] -- Now, there are a few issues still around the remaining ones and that is why they are still there. We are trying to resolve those issues.
Mr. Owusu-Bio 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the Minister said there are some issues still pending. Can he, please, tell us what those issues are?
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, on the issues -- if he wants me to give him the issues then he must come properly for me - [Laughter.] But some of the District Assemblies have written to indicate that they are no longer interested in the graders. Others also say the rate at which the deductions are being made from their Common Fund, they are not comfortable.
So these are the issues that we are trying to resolve which border on having
Dr. R. W. Anane 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want the Minister to let this House know whether he believes in the buying of equipment by the District Assemblies for execution of projects which generally are not their core business.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, our Standing Orders do not allow for opinions to be sought of people and my Colleague is asking for my opinion. I do not have any opinion on the matter -- [Laughter.]
Mr. I. K. Asiamah 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want the Hon Minister to inform this House when did the process of acquiring these graders begin.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, they began in the period of his Party in government -- [Laughter.]
Mr. I. A. B. Fuseini 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I would want to know from the Minister whether the contract for the purchase and distribution of the graders was entered into with the suppliers by the Ministry, or per each District Assembly with the contractors or suppliers.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, as I explained in the Answer, the District Assemblies passed resolutions and subsequently, we have copies of these resolutions urging the suppliers to give them these graders. The bank was the one
that they entered into the contract with to pre-finance the purchase, and over time, for them to be paying this money through the Common Fund deductions. That is what happened, not the Ministry. The Ministry did not get involved directly in the contract administration.
Dr. A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, can the Minister tell us the cost of each grader?
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, if he
wants to know the cost of the grader, he should ask my Colleague who has received one of them -- [Laughter.] On the other hand -- [Interruptions] - I am coming, why? Ah!
rose
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Member, let him finish his answer.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
I am serious - [Inter- ruptions] - Wait! This is a contract I told you is not with the Ministry. I will get you the figures at the appropriate time.
Mr. E. K. Bandua 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. I rise to ask the Minister whether beyond this arrangement, the Government intends to provide tractors or graders to other District Assemblies which may be interested.
Mr. Chireh 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the District Assemblies are autonomous and they have their decisions to make. Unless they pass a resolution, it is not the duty of the Ministry to procure anything for them or direct them to do any procurement for what they do not like. So I would say that, yes, if District Assemblies are interested in procuring and their members agree with them, they pass the necessary resolutions, all the Ministry can do is to facilitate and perhaps, co-ordinate whatever activities need to be done, since each of the District Assemblies cannot spend all its time and
effort to be doing so, since the things are mainly done in Accra.
Mr. Hackman Owusu-Agyemang 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I think a bit of seriousness on the part of the Minister will be in order -- [Interruptions.] He seems to be taking it in a joking manner.
Madam Speaker, I rise seriously to say that, if you are asked “when was it done . . .? he says “when your Govern-ment was in power -- 8 years” - [Laughter] -- I think he is completely out of order. Even when he was asked how much it cost, he said “go and ask the person who knows it”.
Sorry, this is an august House, we demand answers from him. There must be proper answers. He cannot just come and stand here and say “when your govern- ment was in power, for the 8 years” - how do I determine it?
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Order! Hon Member, I think today you are out of order. [Hear! Hear!] Order 68(5) says:
rose
Some Hon Members 11:30 a.m.
Sit down.
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Member, that
is my ruling and I think I have finished with you.
Mr. Owusu-Agyemang 11:30 a.m.
I am not
challenging the ruling. I did not provoke debate. I am saying that we shall need more specific answers rather than this sort of attitude that he is adopting. And I think it is not right. I was asking; I am not provoking debate. I was complaining to your high office that he is not taking us seriously and I have every right to do that. I am not provoking debate, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, the Hon Minister in an answer to a supplementary question has said that the 6 - that is, providing an answer to the stage of distribution of the 36 graders out of the 42 and we have 6 outstanding. The Hon Member then asked a question - the status of the remaining 6. The Hon Minister starts by saying that the 6 are being distributed. That is in one breath.
Then in another breath, he says there are issues being attended to before the distribution.
An Hon Member 11:30 a.m.
When?
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Somebody is asking me “when” - [Laughter] - If you had ears to listen, you would have heard - [Uproar.]
Madam Speaker, that indeed, is what my Hon Colleague said and he would not rebut what I have said.
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Minority
Leader, continue with the question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Well, the
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Minister, can
you answer the question?
Mr. Chireh 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I started
by saying that they are being distributed, because if you look at the subsequent answer I gave, I said there are issues. Now, I do not even know whether as I am speaking, a district has been given or they have resolved the problem with the district and they are giving the thing out. That is why I said so.
The contradiction he assumed is not a contradiction in terms of what I am saying. They are being distributed, which means that as soon as the matters are resolved concerning each particular grader, they would release it. So, that is the essence in which I said so.
I am saying that as they resolve the matters, then they release them. That is why they are being distributed.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, so you see where the issue about seriousness, with respect to my Hon Colleague comes in. Because he said “the person who asked the question about the issues”, and his response was that “if he wants to know the issues, he should come
properly”. That was the first statement.
Then he goes on to answer that there are issues being attended to before the distribution. Then in another breath he says, “the things are being distributed”. If he had said that they are being processed for distribution, that would have been more satisfactory. But he said “they are being distributed”. [Inter-ruptions.] He said “they are being distributed” and in another breath, he says, “there are issues to attend to before the distribution”. That is why I was asking how he reconciles the two.
Madam Speaker, clearly ,the answer he has given is most unsatisfactory, if he would come again and answer in a more satisfactory way.
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Minority Leader, it may be unsatisfactory but he has answered your question. [Hear! Hear!]
Any other question? The Hon Minister has two more Questions to answer. Any other, last question?
Mr. Kwasi Ameyaw-Cheremeh 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the Hon Minister whether payment for the graders have been made by the remaining six District Assemblies.
Mr. Chireh 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, as I said, it is a contract between the bank and the District Assemblies. And as soon as the bank gives the approval for the money to be used by the supplier to bring in, automatically, the payment schedule goes on.
Now, in the case of the 6 that have not yet taken delivery of the graders, it is based on the delivery also that the deductions - but as soon as you agree and sign, you will have that arrangement with the bank to be deducting and paying. But it was from the delivery that some of the efforts would be made to pay up.
Now some of the Assemblies ,
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Minister, thank you.
We will move on to the next Question from Hon John Agyabeng, Member of Parliament for Agona East.
Hon Member, ask your Question.
Composite Budgeting (Commencement)
Q. 7 Mr. John Agyabeng asked the Minister for Local Government and Rural Development when would the proposed composite budgeting at the district level commence.
Mr. J. Y. Chireh 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
composite budgeting at the district level will commence as soon as modalities for transfer of resources to District Assemblies, which are being worked on with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning (MOFEP) and Controller and Accountant-General are completed. The modalities include the harmonization of Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) and the Metropolitan, Municipal and District Assemblies (MMDAs) Chart of Accounts, the establishment of the departments of the District Assemblies, that is, L.I. 1931, and the passage of an Appropriation Bill that will seek to direct resources to the districts vis-à-vis the sector Ministries of the decentralized departments.
The modalities are taking into
consideration section 92(3) of the Local Government Act, 1993 (Act 462) which states:
“The budget for a district shall include the aggregate revenue and expenditure of all departments and organizations under the District Assembly and the District Coordinating Directorate, including the annual development plans and programmes of the departments and organizations under the Assembly.”
Madam Speaker, I wish to inform Hon Members that the training of Budget and Planning Officers in the preparation of composite budget and strategic plan within the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) for the implementation of the composite budget has been carried out nationwide.
Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Local
Government and Rural Development (MLGRD), in collaboration with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning (MOFEP) has also put together guidelines for the preparation of composite budget for use by all District Assemblies.
Vetting of 2009 draft composite budgets
by District Assemblies out of the training programme are ongoing, which will identify weak areas for possible follow-up training programmes.
Mr. Agyabeng 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the Hon Minister whether he is aware that the composite budget had been tested in more than ten districts within the past ten years.
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I am aware. At least, twenty-five or so districts have been testing this.
Mr. Agyabeng 11:40 a.m.
I would also want to know from the Hon Minister whether the harmonization of the Municipal, District and Metropolitan Account has already
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, yes, I am not aware. But what I can say is that, I am saying this harmonization programme is going on, but whether they have been tested, I was not there at that time to be able to tell whether they were tested or not.
Mr. Agyabeng 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, in defending his budget estimates this year, the Hon Minister made us aware that the composite budget at the district level would commence any moment from now. Now, in giving us the Answer, he is just repeating what has been done. I just want to know from him, when exactly the composite budget would start; whether this year or next year, as he himself promised this House when he was defending his budget estimates.
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I think that as I said, we are going to commence at any time; it includes when it is practicable to do so, given the consulta-tions that I have mentioned in the Answer.
We are dealing with other agencies and until we are all prepared, I cannot say I will start or the Ministry would start the programme. That is why I am saying that, as soon as it is practicable.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, when the question was asked of the Hon Minister, whether he is aware that the composite budget has been tested in some districts, his answer was, “Yes, I am not aware.” What does he mean by that? Madam Speaker, if he says No, I am not aware, that is understandable. If he says, “Yes,” then it is, “Yes, I am aware.” But he says, “Yes, I am not aware.” What does he mean by that? [Laughter.]
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, in that particular question, I said, “Yes, I am aware.” And I even gave a figure - 25. What I want to explain is that, it is rather the second question, which is also not about awareness. He was making a statement of fact and I said that I was not there at the time.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the question that I am posing to the Hon Minister is this. When the question was framed, is the Hon Minister aware of something and then he says, “Yes, I am not aware.” [Interruptions.] What does he mean? In the second answer, Madam Speaker, that is what he said. So what does he mean by “Yes, I am not aware”? [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Let him answer
the question. Hon Minister, answer that question.
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, yes, I am aware and I gave a figure. The second one, he made a statement about testing of the composite budget - not composite budget; it is about the harmonization and my response was that, yes, and I con- cluded by saying it was not an opinion of whether I was aware or not. He was making an emphatic statement about what had taken place; that is why I said, I was not there. [Laughter.]
Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I know that the Minority Leader certainly understands my answer, but wants to say that I am not serious with this House; I am thoroughly a serious person and I take the House very serious because I am a Member of this House and above all, I know it is a place of democracy.
Mr. Joseph A. Bosompem 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, my question to the Hon Minister is this, this composite budgetting has been
on the drawing board for the past twenty years. We have been trying to pick it up because that is the last continuum of the decentralization.
The major problem that had bedevilled this process is the unwillingness of heads of MDAs to relinquish power to the districts. What practical steps is his Ministry taking to manage this major change process?
Mr. Chireh 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the practical steps that the Ministry, together with others, will take, including this House, would be for us to look at the legal framework, harmonize the laws that currently seem to be contradicting each other. Particularly, the L.I. 1931 which creates the district departments and therefore, automatically, will have all those district departments preparing their budgets under the District Assembly. Now, that is a legal issue.
The change management issue is with the Local Government Service and they have engaged discussions with the Head of the Civil Service as to the transfer of people, those with central Civil Service to the Local Government Service. And if that is done, these are the practical ways that we can easily have the composite budget obstacles removed.
Madam Speaker 11:40 a.m.
We move on to the next Question, standing in the name of the Hon Member for Agona East (Mr. John Agyabeng.)
Salaries of Staff of the Various Assemblies (Absorption)
Q. 8. Mr. John Agyabeng asked the Minister for Local Government and Rural Development when would the salaries of the staff of Area, Town, Urban, Zonal and
Sub-Metropolitan Assemblies be absorbed by the Local Government Service.
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, payment of salaries to staff of Area, Town, Urban, Zonal and Sub-Metropolitan Assemblies is governed by Part V, Section 29 (4) of the Local Government (Urban, Zonal and Town Councils and Unit Committees) (Establishment) Instrument, 1994 L. I. 1589. This relevant section, I quote with your permission:
“Every Urban or Town Council shall have a Secretariat, the staff of which shall be appointed by the relevant District Assembly on such terms as it may determine in consultation with the relevant Urban or Town Council; except that the staff so appointed shall not be members of the Civil Service and shall be responsible to the relevant Urban or Town Council”.
Madam Speaker, it stands to reason that by the above quoted enactment, District Assemblies are required to cater for the salaries of staff of the Area, Town, Urban, Zonal and Sub-Metropolitan Assemblies and the Ministry does not intend to amend it.
Madam Speaker, the Local Government Service taking up the payment of salaries of the staff of Area, Town, Urban, Zonal and Sub-Metropolitan Assemblies would mean an additional burden on Central Government.
Mr. Agyabeng 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I
want to know from the Hon Minister whether he is aware that almost all the offices of the lower structures are closed and not functioning at the moment.
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I am
Mr. Agyabeng 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to know from the Hon Minister whether he is aware that the inability of the District Assemblies to pay the staff of the lower structures has led to the non- functioning of the lower structures.
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, yes, it is among the reasons assigned for the non- functioning of this sub-district structures, the non-payment; but there are other reasons why they are not functional.
Mr. Agyabeng 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, in his Answer, he made us aware that the Ministry is not prepared to amend the L.I. 1589, meaning that the lower structures which are the pillars of the decentralization are going to suffer. I want the Hon Minister to explain to us why the Ministry is not prepared to amend the L.I. 1589 since it existed before the Local Government Service Act was passed.
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, if he got that impression then it is not that we are not going to amend this part of the L.I. And the reason that we do not intend to amend it now is the fact that Central Government can really not take on these persons who are employed at the local level.
Mr. B. A. Banda 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister has just indicated that there are other reasons why the lower structures are not functioning. Can he tell this august House those other reasons why the lower structures are not functioning?
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, some of the reasons I can give include the fact that some have no offices, the staffing position in terms of qualified staff to even man these are a problem and many others
which I cannot give offhand.
Mr. A. C. Ntim 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the Hon Minister whether he is aware that the proper and efficient functioning of the District Assembly depends so much on the efficient running of the sub-structures.
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I am aware that the whole concept of decentralization and getting it working also presupposes that the lower structures are effective. I know that if we had the resources and the means to be able to do this, that would have been the ideal situation for us as an effective democracy in going down to the doorsteps of the people. I am aware of that.
Dr. M. O. Prempeh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, will the Hon Minister come again to the Despatch Box and now tell us if he is very much well aware that the efficient functioning of the Assemblies depends on the sub-structures and why he seems so unconcerned as to whether they are functioning or not? [Interruptions.]
Mr. Chireh 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I am very concerned about this situation and I wish I were in a position to do something immediately about it.
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Hon Minister. Thank you very much for coming to answer our Questions.
We move on to the Question standing in the name of the Hon Member for Atwima- Nwabiagya (Mr. Benito Owusu-Bio). Hon Member, ask your Question?
MINISTRY OF FINANCE AND 11:50 a.m.
ECONOMIC PLANNING 11:50 a.m.
Minister for Finance and Economic Planning (Dr. Kwabena Duffuor) 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the total expenditure for the entire transitional process amounted to GH¢361,924.41 (three hundred and sixty- one thousand, nine hundred and twenty-four Ghana cedis and forty-one Ghana pesewas) - [Uproar.]
Madam Speaker, this expenditure is in four categories; namely:
Honoraria to members;
Refreshment (members, security, volunteers, invitees and press);
Hiring of office equipment; and
Stationery (pens, paper clips, file covers, note pads, A-4 paper, et cetera).
The breakdown of honoraria paid to members of the transitional team is as follows:
Chairman GH¢2,250.00
Two supporting staff at GH¢1,800 each
GH¢3,600.00
Seven su-committee chairmen at GH¢1,800 each GH¢12,600.00
141 members at GH¢1,350 each GH¢190,350.00
Dr. Duffuor 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, refreshment (water, tea and snack, and lunch) for the transitional team members, security, volunteers, invitees and the press amounted to GH¢135,316.30.
Hiring of office equipment totalled
GH¢15,024.01.
Lastly, Madam Speaker, expenditure on stationery was GH¢2,784.10.
The total expenditure on the entire transitional process therefore, amounted to GH¢361,924.41.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Owusu-Bio noon
Madam Speaker, I
would like to know from the Hon Minister, when did the process start and when did it end - [Pause.] How long?
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, I
Some Hon Members noon
How long?
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, about

Madam Speaker, I will provide the exact date to Parliament next time.
Mr. Owusu-Bio noon
Madam Speaker, I
Madam Speaker noon
Order! Order!
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, I remember that members of the transitional team used their own vehicles, bought their
Dr. Duffuor noon


own fuel -- [Uproar] - that is what I did and I know that it applied to all members. We were not given fuel, we were not collected from our homes. We used our own vehicles and bought our own fuel. That, I remember, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker noon
Hon Member, your
third question now.
Mr. Owusu-Bio noon
Madam Speaker, the
Madam Speaker noon
Order! Order!
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, here, I
am referring to the entire transitional team. I do not know who were the NPP or who were the NDC. We are talking about -- [Uproar] - Please, we are talking about - [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker noon
Order! Let the
gentleman answer the question.
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, the data
I have is about the transitional team unless NPP was not part of it.
Mr. J. K. Avedzi noon
Madam Speaker,
the Hon Minister mentioned the honoraria that was paid to the members of the team -- the chairman, GH¢2,250.00 -- and the rest. And I want to find out from the Hon Minister, whether this is the amount that was paid to the committee members for the whole period that the transition ran or it was paid on monthly basis to them.
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, it
Dr. A. A. Osei noon
Madam Speaker, I
am informed that the Hon Minister, in
answering one of the questions stated categorically that all members of the transition team were paid. Is he aware that I was a member of the Economic and Finance Sub-committee? I have never -- and I do not know of anybody on this side who received - [Interruptions] -- Is the Hon Minister categorically saying that -- [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker noon
Order! Let us hear
the Hon Member.
Dr. Osei noon
Madam Speaker, is the
Dr. Duffuor noon
Madam Speaker, I
remember saying that I was referring to a team. I do not know whether it is NPP or NDC but I am referring to a team; I am referring to a transitional team.
Dr. Osei noon
Madam Speaker, there is a
list here which talks about the - [Pause]. I yield to the Leader -- [Pause.]
Mr. Dan Botwe noon
Madam Speaker, it
Madam Speaker noon
Order! Order,
please.
rose
Mr. Bagbin 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I believe we want to do justice to this Question. And it is important that in asking questions, we state the truth. There is nothing in this Answer saying that one billion, three hundred and fifty
Mr. Botwe 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I think
the Hon Minister is capable of answering the question.
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Minister, tell us the proper position. Is it true? [Interruptions.] Order, please. Hon Minister, I hope you got the question? [Interruptions.]
Dr. Duffuor 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker,
these were expenses incurred during the transitional period; when revenue came in from the Customs, Excise and Preventive Service (CEPS), Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and so on -- Madam Speaker, we managed the country with revenue we mobilized, and this is where this money came from.
Madam Speaker, the point I am making is that -- [Interruption] -- Madam Speaker, I have difficulty with that question because we use revenue in managing the nation, and revenues which came in after 1st January, part was used to manage this situation.

Madam Speaker, sorry, I have to

come back. Madam Speaker, the figure GH¢ 135,316.30 covered expenses on

water - [Some Hon Members: Tea] -- [Laughter] -- tea and snack and lunch - [Interruption] -- so not only tea.
Mr. A. K. Agbesi 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to know from the Hon Minister, whether given the time, he will be able to furnish this House the amount spent on water, tea, snack, lunch, security, volunteers, invitees, and the press to the satisfaction of this House.
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Minister, he said, can you tell us the amounts spent on these various items?
Dr. Duffuor 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, sorry, I did not hear the question properly, so ask him to repeat it, please - [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Members, let us hear the answer, please.
Mr. Agbesi 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, what I am asking the Hon Minister is this -- He has mentioned an amount of GHC 135,316.30, and this amount covered a lot of items. My question is, given time, can he break down these items as to how much was spent on each?
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Minister, have you got the breakdown of these here? Can you answer that question?
Dr. Duffuor 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, that can be done later on. We can break it down.
Mr. Isaac Osei 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, will
the Hon Minister now confirm that the transitional team ate and drank as much as 1.3 billion old cedis -- [Uproar] --Well, it is not just tea but they ate and drank as much as GH¢135,000. Will the Hon Minister confirm this to this House?
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Order! Order! Hon Osei, I will ask him to answer it. But if he says they drank, and they ate food, they drank tea -- [Laughter] - But I will still ask him - [Interruption.]
Mr. Osei 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister should confirm it to us.
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Minister, I thought the answer was there; but he wants a confirmation. Can you? He asked, did you drink and eat; and other things? Yes, Hon Minister? [Interruptions.]
Dr. Duffuor 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the figure represents expenses on refresh- ment. We had the members of the whole transitional team; we had security around; we had volunteers, invitees and the press -- a whole lot of people - [Uproar.]
rose
Madam Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Member, ask your question.
Mr. Felix Twumasi-Appiah 12:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, will the Hon Minister confirm to this House that whatever was eaten, drunk, spent as members of the transitional team, also included -- and indeed, majority of the transitional team were members of the former Administration -- [Uproar.]
Thank you.
Dr. Duffuor 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I am sorry, I was not there.
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon Member, he has answered. He said he was not there.
Hon Members, it is almost one hour; we have another Question. Let us have two more questions and then we move to another Question, unless you want to spend all the one hour on this Question - [Interruptions.] All right, when the time comes, we will forego the other Question; but it is to the same Hon Minister. I think it will be fair to take two more questions.
Mr. O. B. Amoah 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, can the Hon Minister provide a full list
of members of the transitional team to this House? [Interruptions.] The full list of the transitional team - [Pause.] Yes, Madam Speaker, I was saying that can the Hon Minister provide a full list of members of the transitional team, how much each earned and the number of days they served on the transitional team.
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon Minister, have you got those facts? Can you answer the question?
Dr. Duffuor 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, with time, I should be able to compile such data for him.
Mr. I. A. B. Fuseini 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, can the Hon Minister tell us in comparative terms whether more money was expanded in the transitional period of 2001 as against - [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Order!
Dr. Duffuor 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, with time I must be able to compile such data for the Hon Member.
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, ask one last question and we will move on to the next Question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister has indicated to us that the total membership of the people who served on the transitional team came to 151, that is, the chairman, two supporting staff, seven committee chairmen -- that makes 10 -- plus 141 members. And if you total it, comes to 151.
Madam Speaker, the list provided

Madam Speaker, let me insist that no gesticulations from Hon Members on the other side, including the Majority Leader, can stop me from asking the question.

Madam Speaker, now the question, given that the National Democratic Congress (NDC) side, the number comes to 100 as per their own list - [Inter- ruptions.] When you become silent I will ask the question --
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon Member, ask
your question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
The question is, because the Hon Minister has stated categorically that the amount paid was to cover the entire transitional team that included the NDC side and the NPP side, is the Hon Minister aware that nobody from the NPP side was paid anything? Is the Hon Minister aware? [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Can I take a point
of order from the Hon Majority Leader?
Mr. Bagbin 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, my Hon Colleague, the Minority Leader started by arguing and coming to conclusions on answers that were provided by the Hon Minister but it is clear that the Hon Minister talked about the transitional team and the transitional team was not only made up of NPP and NDC members it was also made up of Conventional People's Party (CPP) members; it was also made up of people who have not identified themselves with any political party. It was also made up of institutional represen- tation - [Interruptions.] So it is not a matter of NDC and CPP or NPP; it is not.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I fail to see the relevance of the intervention of the Hon Majority Leader. He is completely out of order. Madam Speaker, I asked a simple question directed at the Hon Minister. He intervenes and
interjects himself and starts arguing.
Mr. Bagbin 12:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we are guided by rules and I was referring him to Order 67 (1) (b). So I was objecting to the question he had posed and saying that you should not allow the Hon Minister to answer that question because the question offends the spirit and letter of Order 67 (1) (b).
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I do not intend to travel on the road of pettiness with my Hon Colleague. [Hear! Hear!]
Madam Speaker, the question is unambiguous, very succinct, very clear. And I stated the question without any equivocation or prevarication.
and for the avoidance of doubt, let me repeat it to the Hon Minister responsible for Finance and Economic Planning. Madam Speaker, the question is not directed at the Hon Majority Leader
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Well, but he had the right to make a point of order; did he not?
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, that is when he is on the right track. In this case, he was on a very slippery ground and that is why you have not ruled - [Interruption] - I thank you for that.
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader, ask your question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister stated categorically that the payments which have been effected altogether to the 151 people - the chairman, two supporting staff, 7 sub-committee chairpersons and 141 members; that comes to 151. Madam Speaker, the NDC members on the transition team, the number comes to 100 - [Interruptions] - yes. Madam Speaker, the Hon Majority Leader is saying it is not true. He does not know. He is not the Leader of Government Business and so he does not know and he will not pretend to know - [Interruptions.] He cannot pretend to know because he does not know - [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Order! Order! Hon Minority Leader, where did you get the figures from? I do not have them.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, it is from the NDC itself - [Interruptions.] It is from the Office of the President and it was announced. If they dare me, let me go through the list of the committee members and let anybody challenge it. Madam Speaker, it is from the NDC. It is from the Office of the President.
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Can I have a look at the list?
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, you will have it in due time, if you so wish.
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Can I have a look
at the document?
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, you will have it but before I ask my question -- [Some Hon Members: Read, read] --
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
So that the House
gets to know what you are quoting.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, the list -- the team has Mr. P.V. Obeng as the Chairman, Mr. Alex Segbefia as Secretary, Mrs. Hannah Tetteh Kpoda as Spokesperson. Madam Speaker, then you come to the sub-committees. They are Mr. Victor Gbeho, Chairman, Inauguration Sub-Committee; Mr. Don Arthur, Chairman, Sub-committee on Transfer of Executive Assets; Togbe Afede Asor xiv, Chairman, sub-committee on the economy, Brigadier Nunoo Mensah, Chairman, National Security Sub- committee; Alhaji Muhammad Mumuni, Chairman, Committee on Governance; Mr. Ekow Spio-Garbrah, Chairman, Social Sub-committee; Mrs. Betty Mould Iddrisu, Chairperson, Sub- committee on legal matters; Mr. Kwame Peprah, Chairman, Sub-committee on Energy; Alhaji Mahama Iddrisu, Chairman, Nominations Sub-Committee

Madam Speaker, for the Inauguration Sub-Committee, of course, I have mentioned the name of the Chairman, Mr. Victor Gbeho. Then we have Kofi Adams, Mr. Doe Adjaho, Ms. Sherry Ayittey, Hon Alban Bagbin - [Uproar] - Mr. Kojo Bonsu, Hon Ms. Akua Sena Dansua, Hon E.T. Mensah - [Uproar] -- Mr. Fiifi Kwetey, Mrs. Kate Ocran,

- [Interruptions] -- I know. I had it. So the impression. - [Inter-ruptions.] So Madam Speaker, I am asking the Minority Leader to rephrase his question because these are not NDC members, it is the team. [Interruption.]
rose
Mr. Bagbin 12:30 p.m.
It will not help you --
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Order, Hon
Majority Leader, have you finished with your contribution? He should rephrase the question and the Minister will answer it.
Hon Minority Leader, I have said before, ask your last question, last question. Ask your question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:30 p.m.
Clearly, if
Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Hon Minister,
the question is, are you aware that they have not been paid? Can you answer the question?
Dr. Duffuor 12:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I am
not aware - [Uproar] - I will need to find out. As of now I am not aware.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:40 p.m.
Madam
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Order! Order! Hon
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:40 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, I have posed the question to the Hon Minister. The Hon Minister understands the question. Can the Hon Minister answer the question?
Mr. Bagbin 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker,
definitely, we will allow the Hon Minister responsible for Finance and Economic Planning to answer his legitimate questions. That is why he is here. But Madam Speaker, I was a member of the transitional team in 2001 - [Mr. E. T. Mensah: And I was also a member in 2001] and leadership of Parliament is always part of the transitional team because we have a sub- committee on Parliament - [Pause.]
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Order! Let us hear them.
rose
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Yes, Hon Member?
Mr. Owusu-Agyemang 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I have a point of order. [Interruptions.]
Mr. Bagbin 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I am raising this point of order - [Interruptions] - because my Hon Colleague is misleading the whole House. The list he is reading is the NDC team of the transitional team - [Interruptions.] Former Minister for Justice, will you kindly listen -- not NDC members. If you go through the list, you will come across a lot of names that are not members of NDC that I know
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon Member, I will
not allow that question [Interruptions] because you asked him a question as to whether he is aware. That was your question and he said, no. That ends the matter.
Thank you Hon Members -- Shall we move to the next Question which stands in the name of Hon Samuel Johnfiah, Member for Ahanta West to the same Hon Minister?
Mr. Samuel Johnfiah 12:40 p.m.
Thank you
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Order!
Mr. Johnfiah 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, before
I pose my Question to the Hon Minister, may I crave your indulgence to make a correction. It is actually an omission on line (3). Between the year “2008” and “the” I want us to “insert” the word “particularly”.
Divestiture of State-Owned Enterprises (Status)
Q. 22. Mr. Samuel Johnfiah asked the Minister for Finance and Economic Planning the status of the divestiture of state-owned enterprises as at 31st December 2008, particularly the total number of state-owned enterprises placed on divestiture, payments made on each and outstanding payments due.
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon Minister, can you answer the Question for us, please -- [Interruptions.] Hon Members, let us hear the Answer to the Question. [Inter- ruption.] Yes, Hon Majority Leader?
Mr. Bagbin 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we
all know the procedure for asking and answering Questions. You ask a Question, the Answer is submitted, and when the House is ready to listen to the Question read on the floor and the Answer given as printed on the Order Paper, the Question is amended. So the focus has shifted to particular entities. That is what he has stated now. So you will see that the Answer might not respond to that “particularly”.
I want my Hon Colleague to understand that because he has just amended it now, the Answer will not be responding to the current amendment . [Interruptions.] So he should take it that if he accepts it, the Hon Minister will read the Answer. [Interruption.]
Mr. Johnfiah 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I
Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Ask your printed
Question.
Mr. Johnfiah 12:40 p.m.
Yes, this is what I am
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:40 p.m.
Madam

Divestitures of State-Owned Enterprises (Status)

Q. 22. Mr. Samuel Johnfiah asked the Minister for Finance and Economic Planning the status of the divestiture of State-Owned Enterprises as at 31st December 2008, the total number of State- Owned Enterprises placed on divestiture, payments made on each and outstanding payments due.
Dr. Duffour 12:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, some State-Owned Enterprises were divested through the Ministries. What we have here is the list of those divested through the Divestiture Implementation Committee
(DIC).
Mr. Johnfiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the Minister for the Answer that he has provided. But when you look at page 21, you will see that in the year 2003 alone, we have some outstanding debts that some companies were owing and when you add the figures it comes to about GH¢1 million. In addition, we have also $80,000. In fact, if you total the whole list, you will come to about GH¢2 million. I want to find out from the Hon Minister why the Ministry is not making any conscious effort to recoup some of the debts this year.
Dr. Duffuor 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we are now in June and we are making an effort to collect the debts.
Mr. Johnfiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I have the 2009 Budget Statement, and if you look at page 203, there is no indication that they are going to get receipts from divestiture. So how does he reconcile that with this statement that he has made?
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Minister, have
Madam Speaker, that is the point at issue, whether it was a typographical error or whatever, is another matter. But he needs to state it for the records that this is the Question that he filed and it appeared yesterday appropriately, that was the issue that he raised. So it cannot be said of him that he is amending it on the floor of Parliament today.
Mr. Bagbin 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the
Hon Member clearly stated before reading his Question that he is amending the Question. I am not ascribing that to him. [Interruptions]. He has stated that he is amending -- [Interruptions.] If the Hon Member is drawing our attention to the fact that the Question he posed has not been properly captured and that this word is left out and so we should insert it, that is different from you saying that I am amending the Question. [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Johnfiah, what
word is missing from your Question as it appeared?
Mr. Johnfiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I
wanted an emphasis to be laid on the Answer of the Question that I asked. That was why I added “particularly” and it should be inserted. [Interruptions.] Madam Speaker, I want to leave “particularly” out and take the Question as it stands.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Members, we
have already exhausted our one hour and we are going into two hours, I will allow more time, ask your Question and three more Questions from you and we will move on because we have only one hour for Questions.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 2
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the total number of divested State-Onwed Enterprises as at 31st December 2008, stood at 367. The breakdown is as follows:
Madam Speaker, attached are tables showing payments made on each and outstanding payments due.
12.40 P.M. TABLE

12.40 P.M. TABLE 3 12.40 P.M. TABLE 4
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 5 12.40 P.M. TABLE 6
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 7 12.40 P.M. TABLE 8
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 9

12.40 P.M. TABLE 10
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 11

12.40 P.M. TABLE 12
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 13

12.40 P.M. TABLE 14
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.


12.40 P.M. TABLE 14

you got the question? Please, answer it.
Dr. Duffuor 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, there are indeed outstanding debts as he is talking about. We have debts which have gone bad and we have given those people to the court, they are in the hands of lawyers. Then we have debtors who are paying and we are pursuing them. So Madam Speaker, it is not that we are not making any efforts, we are making efforts.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Your third question, please.
Mr. Johnfiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Minister has provided an answer but my concern is that, in the 2009 Budget Statement - [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Yes, you asked that question and he answered you. Ask another question, your last question.
Mr. Johnfiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, if you look at page 19 of the document, you realise that we have a company called Norpalm ASA Norway. In fact, Norpalm ASA Norway happened to be in my constituency and the company was divested to them in 1999. As we talk now, there is an outstanding debt of ¢1,480 million. The question I want to ask is -- the Minister has indicated that the sale of total Government of Ghana (GOG) shares - He says the investor is asking for price revision due to diseased crops prior to handing over. So for the past ten years Madam Speaker, the issue has been outstanding, meanwhile, the company is working.
In fact, they planted trees on the land and they are yielding. So what effort is the Minister going to make to ensure that we retrieve this outstanding amount?
Dr. Duffuor 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I would like the Hon Member to know that this matter is in court.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
We have spent up to two hours and we are moving to item
4 - Statements.
Hon Minister, thank you very much for appearing before the House. We hope you will come again when we invite you.
Hon Members, I have admitted a Statement from Hon Justice Joe Appiah, Member of Parliament for Ablekuma North. Are you here, Hon Member for Ablekuma North?
STATEMENTS 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Member, what are you reading? Is it a Statement?
Mr. Appiah 12:50 p.m.
Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Which paragraph have you read?
Mr. Appiah 12:50 p.m.
I am on paragraph five.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Paragraph five?
Mr. Appiah 12:50 p.m.
Yes, Madam Speaker.
We of ten see a lcohol ic dr ink advertisement in broad day light when
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Member, I have a Statement from you and it is not what you are reading. Let me check it up.
Mr. Appiah 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the heading is “Alcohol Abuse on Ascendancy”.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Member, it appears I have a different copy. It is not what you are reading. Can I have a copy of what you are reading? It was sent by Hon Gifty Kusi and I admitted it, but it is not the same as you are reading. [Interruption.]
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, if you are not too sure of the text before you, may I plead that we stand it down till tomorrow, possibly?
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Members, we stand it down and we move on with the work.

Commencement of Public Business - Laying of Papers. Item 5 (i), Chairman of the Committee?
PAPERS 12:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Item 5 (ii), who is laying it? Chairman of the Committee?
Dr. A. A. Osei 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker, on a point of order. Madam Speaker, there is an issue that we need your advice on since you are not only the Speaker but a learned Judge. There is a constitutional matter which we have discussed with the Minister's representatives and the Chairman of the Finance Committee.
Last Saturday, there was a prominent display of a signing of these Agreements and the reason given that there was a deadline being given to the Ministry which I was told was the 16th. Article 181 (3), I believe, talks about this issue, and because it is so important, I want us to clear our minds so that we are not seen to be doing the wrong thing.
The Hon Deputy Minister was advised, I am told, to sign the loans with AFDB - Hon Fiifi Kwetey -- I am told, because ADB had suggested that if he did not sign it, it would lapse by the 16th. I read it, and that is why I need your judgment. Article 181 (3) states and with your permission, I want to read:
“No loan shall be raised by the Government on behalf of itself or any other public institution or authority otherwise than by or under the authority of an Act of Parliament.”
I am told that it was because of that emergency that he went and signed it, and now, it is being laid for us to approve. So my question is, are we doing the proper thing, having him sign it, and then we are going to, after the fact, approve it? Am I interpreting the Constitution wrongly?
I just need your judgment.
Madam Speaker 1 p.m.
Well, I need to know the facts before I can ---
Dr. Osei 1 p.m.
Yes, I think the Minister can
appraise us of the facts.
rose
Madam Speaker 1 p.m.
Yes, Hon Leader?
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we are
doing the right thing, and when he was at the Ministry, that was the right procedure that was followed. Let me refer to the provision that he himself has quoted, and particularly article 181 (2) -- [Inter- ruption.] I will go to the subclause (3) too. Article 181 (2):
“An agreement entered into under clause (1) of this article shall be laid before Parliament and shall not come into operation unless it is approved by a resolution of Parliament.”
So there must be an agreement entered into and it is that agreement that will be laid before Parliament. Then you go to subclause (3) which reads:
“No loan shall be raised by the Government on behalf of itself or any other public institution or authority otherwise than by or under the authority of an Act of Parliament.”
These loans are raised under the Loans Act. There is an Act of Parliament. So there is nothing wrong being done, it is the right thing. They are raised under the Loans Act and when they bring them here, they refer to the Loans Act. He was there at the Ministry, and he passed through the
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.


same procedure, we went through them, there is nothing wrong with signing the agreement before it is laid.

They must enter into the agreement and it is that agreement that is now laid, and it will not come into effect until it is approved by a resolution of Parliament, and that is the right thing that is being done.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, this matter has always aroused some controversy. The Majority Leader started quoting from article 181(2). Madam Speaker, let us address our minds to article 181 (1). Article 181 (1) reads:
“Parliament may, by a resolution supported by the votes of a majority of all the members of Parliament, authorize the Govern-ment to enter into an agreement for the granting of a loan out of any public fund or public account.”
Madam Speaker, and then subclause (2) says 1 p.m.
“An agreement entered into under clause (1) of this article shall be laid before Parliament and shall not come into operation unless it is approved by a resolution of Parliament.”
Madam Speaker, that is where the
problem is, while he chose to go on the second leg thereafter, I do not know. But is article 181 (1) --
Madam Speaker, I am aware that this thing has always engendered some controversy. Perhaps, we may have as a House to put this matter beyond dispute. But it is incorrect for him to go and stand on the second leg and proceed further. Madam Speaker, let him start from subclause (1).
rose rose
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker, let me
draw his attention before he comes in.
Madam Speaker 1 p.m.
Let us hear him.
Mr. Joe Ghartey 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker,
I usually agree with Mr. Kyei-Mensah- Bonsu on his legal interpretations even though - But on this occasion, I cannot agree with him. The practice has always been that whether the agreement is signed before or after, if Parliament does not by a resolution approve it, it does not come into effect. Indeed, when we are doing due diligence, when we are signing agreements in the Attorney-General's Office, we make it clear to the other side that this signing is subject to approval by Parliament. [Interruptions.] It is a condition subsequent.
Madam Speaker, when you look at articles 181(1) and 181(2) and (3), there seems to be the possibility of it coming here, then going back and coming here again. But the practice that has developed in the Attorney-General's Office over the years is that, it is signed and it comes to Parliament and it does not come into force until Parliament has approved it by a resolution.
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker,
while agreeing with my Colleague, Hon Joe Ghartey, I just want to add that article181(1) is talking about the granting of a loan from public fund or public account of Ghana. That is what that one is talking about. Before the Government can grant a loan out of public funds or public accounts; our money, we have to authorize the Government to do that. But when the Government is contracting a loan, that is different - [Some Hon
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.


Members: “Teach him.”] - That is different. Please, I am very clear in my mind on this. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 1 p.m.
Let us hear him - yes, Hon Member, say it again.
Mr. Bagbin 1 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I
said article 181(1) is dealing with when Government wants to grant a loan out of any public account or out of any public fund, that is Ghana money, we have to authorize the Government to do it. That is article 181(1).
Then article 181(2) is talking about
entering into the agreement, yes, entering into the agreement, and it states that it will have to be laid, that agreement will have to be laid before Parliament, and before it comes into effect, it must have been approved by a resolution of Parliament.
Article 181(3) deals with Government
raising loans -- not Government granting loans, which is different. That is the two. The practice is what Hon Joe Ghartey mentioned. The former Minister at the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning is aware that in practice - and we have copious examples that we did together during the time he was at the Ministry. So I do not see the point he is raising here at all.
No law has been breached, no rule has been breached, no procedure has been breached. We are going according to what the law says, what procedure has been done and everything is in order.
Dr. Osei 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, with respect, I do not think that the Hon Majority Leader has been listening to me. Something was brought to this House and referred to the Committee - some agreement. [Interruption] Listen to me -
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
Is it an agreement?
Dr. Osei 1:10 p.m.
That is why I asked because something was signed.
Madam Speaker, something was signed on Friday - [Hon Members: What?] - A loan agreement with the AfDB. That agreement, Madam Speaker, with respect, we do not have copies in this House -- [An Hon Member: That one has not come before us] - So what are we laying?
Madam Speaker, it is the same issue
that we are about to discuss. And I think that it is only fair that that agreement that was signed on Friday, at least, be brought here. Otherwise, we will be looking at two separate agreements. It is not here.
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
All that he is saying is that he wants to see the agreement. Is that not it? That he has not seen the agreement.
Mr. J. K. Avedzi 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Member who is raising the issue is the Hon Ranking Member of the Finance Committee. He says that no agreement has been laid before the House, but this particular Report we are laying now was an agreement which was laid and he was part of the meeting that discussed it. Even when the draft was prepared, we discussed it together.
We agreed on all details of the Report. What issue is he raising now? If he knows that no agreement has been laid before the House, what was he working on? What report was he looking at? What report
has he agreed on with me before we brought the Report out? So I think what he is saying is out of the issue. He should sit down.
Mr. Joe Ghartey 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, after an agreement is signed, it has to be brought here. All we are saying is that we can only approve what we have seen. And what we are saying is that even if the Committee sees it, the whole Parliament has not seen it. So when you are bringing your Report, bring it together with the agreement as well. That we should all see it.
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
That is all that he is asking, that the Report has been laid, where is the Agreement?
Mr. Bagbin 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Agreement was laid here and referred to the Committee. The Committee worked on that Agreement and they are reporting to the House. He is talking about another Agreement that has been signed at the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning by the Hon Deputy Minister. That Agreement had not been laid in this House. It is not referred to any committee. So we do not have that before us. What we have before us is the earlier Agreement that has been referred to the Committee, which they are reporting on.
The second Agreement -- [Inter- ruptions.] - Please, what is your worry? That Agreement will have to come to this House before it can come into force. That Agreement that he is talking about will have to be brought here, be laid and referred to the Committee. But as at now, this is what we have. The Agreement was laid here and referred to the Committee and the Committee is reporting on it. That is what we are to discuss today.
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
Hon Member, you were complaining that you have not seen the Agreement, and he is saying that that Agreement which you referred to has not been laid in this House at all.
Dr. Osei 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we have to be careful. We all want to do the proper thing. Some Agreement was brought to this House -- some Agreement -- which was not signed. It was referred to the Committee and the Committee is now bringing its report.
Subsequently, some Agreement, whose content I do not know, on the same matter; it is not a different matter - has been signed by the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning for a legitimate reason, on these loans that we are talking about. None of us here, except the Ministry has seen what was signed. It is only fair to this House that we are convinced that what the Committee was given is the same one that he signed so that we are doing the proper thing.
Madam Speaker, I am not trying to - we have to be careful. Assuming, for the purpose of argument that there is even one clause that is different from, what do we do?
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning is here. He can tell us, as we go through the Report, what was signed, so that we, all of us here, can be convinced.
Madam Speaker, I started by saying that there was a compelling reason; they were told that it will lapse on the 16th by which time we had not brought our report. Why do we not ask for a copy of that Agreement to assure ourselves that it is the same one that came to the Committee? Otherwise, I cannot support this Report because I do not know -
Mr. Bagbin 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, there is a procedure in this House. He cannot talk about the Hon Minister importing information on another Agreement through the back door, whether it is on the same
subject matter or not. We have not seen it. So what we have with us is what we work on - [Interruptions.] Please, even when the Hon Minister is debating, he cannot be referring to the provisions of that Agreement which is not before this House. The Hon Minister will be referring to what is before this House. He has a genuine case.
But I am saying that there is a procedure of bringing these things here -- And we have the Standing Orders. If later on the Ministry -- [Interruptions] - Why not? Because we cannot debate something that is not before us. We cannot discuss something we have not seen. We have not seen it.
I am not talking about the Hon Minister. The Hon Minister is from the Executive. He is not with Parliament. So when the Executive brings it to Parliament and it is duly laid, it becomes our property and then we can work on it. But what we have now is the first Agreement that has been laid properly, referred to the Committee and they are reporting on it. That is the proper thing. Later on, if they bring any Agreement, we will work on it.
And there are rules on how to handle whatever resolution we are going to enter in here. The Standing Orders are clear - [Interruptions.] It does not matter.
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
Yes, Hon Member, he is saying that the proper thing will be done later, and that what was laid was not the signed one. But you are saying subsequently you have heard it has been signed. Is that not the position?
Dr. Osei 1:10 p.m.
I just want to save this whole House the agony and time of having to bring another signed Agreement, which we are also going to discuss and it turns out that, God forbid, there is a slight difference. If that Agreement is there, why do we not, instead of rushing and laying this, do the proper thing? [Inter-ruptions.]
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
Hon Leader, I think he wants things to be done quickly and he says if you have it, attach it.
Mr. Bagbin 1:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I am very clear on this matter. We have not breached any rule. We have not breached any law. When the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning - [Interruptions.] Please, if the Ministry feels that there is the need that that is the same thing that we are considering today, there is a proper time for the Hon Minister to withdraw this for the new one to be re-laid. [Inter-ruptions.] The rules are clear. We cannot anticipate. It is against our rules. We cannot anticipate. Our rules say that we cannot anticipate.
Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
What is the Order you are referring to?
Mr. Bagbin 1:20 a.m.
I am saying, say -
[Interruptions.] What is your problem?
Madam Speaker 1:20 a.m.
In any case, I
thought this was for distribution.
Mr. Bagbin 1:20 a.m.
If my Hon Colleague
may avail himself of the provisions on anticipation - Order 95 - [Inter-ruptions.] What do you mean by “quote”? I am aware the wording is talking about Bills. It says that:
“It shall be out of order to anticipate a Bill by discussion of a motion dealing with the subject-matter of the Bill on a day prior to that appointed for the consideration of that Bill.”
(2) [Interruptions.] Oh!
(2) “It shall be out of order to anticipate a Bill or a motion by discussion of an amendment to it.”
Please, read (3):
“In determining - [Interruptions.] I am giving all so that you can understand it properly. “In determining whether a discussion is out of order on the ground of anticipation, regard shall be had by Mr. Speaker to the probability of the matter in anticipation being brought before the House within a reasonable time.”
Madam Speaker, that is why I am
drawing his attention, that he might have heard or seen being signed by the Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning is not a matter before this House. He is anticipating that business which is not before this House. It is not a Bill, but in trying to interprete it, they are talking about matter. The matter could be a Bill, but it could also lead to a Bill and I am saying that until that matter, until that Agreement is brought to the House, we are not aware of that Agreement.

No, no. The Committee is reporting on what has been referred to them; that is what they are reporting on. The Hon Minister is also here; that is the advantage. If he had not been here, there would be a problem, but the Hon. Minister is here.

The Hon Minister discussed the matter with the Chairman of the Committee and

it is time for laying and the Chairman laid the Report. So I take it that what is before them is what they are reporting on. What is yet to come will come at the right time, it would be referred to them, they would report on it and this House would have the opportunity to debate it.
Madam Speaker 1:20 a.m.
I can make a ruling. If the Committee which is laying the Paper has not seen any other Agreements, then how could they talk about it here? They are only laying what this House referred to them.
Dr. Osei 1:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, if you
Madam Speaker 1:20 a.m.
Of course, of course.
Dr. Osei 1:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, this was put in our boxes today; it is no secret. The Daily Graphic of Saturday prominently put it there in anticipation of that as we are discussing it today, there was the likely probability that that Agreement exists.
That is why I am trying to assist the Hon Minister, as the Majority Leader said, find the way to withdraw it and make sure that this House does not go through the agony of having to postpone -- because they have a problem, which is that, the African Development Bank (ADB) was compelling them to move forward, on that basis they went and signed an Agreement. And this is the same thing - roads - they are talking about.
Madam Speaker, it is only prudent that we advise properly so that he can do the proper thing and do the amendment. The same amount of money - If we approve this, Madam Speaker, we would be rejecting it later on. That is why he is here --
Madam Speaker 1:20 a.m.
Why are you going away? [Laughter]
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with respect, we are where we are because of some technicality. You would remember that when we started, the Hon Majority Leader insisted that it is for the Ministry to sign the document before it comes here. That was the initial issue that we were trying to unravel.
Madam Speaker, we are being told - [Interruptions.] That indeed was the issue. And that is why he quoted article 181 (2); that it should come here for us - that the Agreement should be signed by the Ministry before it comes here; that was the initial point.
Now, we are being told that the document before us has not been signed and that now, as of last Friday, the same Agreement has now been signed. Fortunately, we have the Hon Minister here. As we speak, he has gone out.
But Madam Speaker, first of all, we should be clear in our minds that the Hon Minister, even if he is not a Member of Parliament, he is not a stranger, by our rules, he is not a stranger -- So if we come into some labyrinth and we need some clarification he could be asked, because he is not a stranger, to furnish us with further and better particulars about anything within his competence.
The question to pose to the Hon Minister is whether the Agreement that was signed last Friday is the same. If it is the same then we need not continue to process this, because we need to know that Agreement. If it is the same; if it is not
the same and they relate to two different Agreements then perhaps, we could go on.
But the Hon Minister is here; could he inform us whether the Agreement that was signed last Friday relates to the same subject matter before us. And if it is so, then perhaps, we may have to just stand it down for about one or two days and it may then be referred to the Committee which perhaps, may even determine it to be of urgent nature and then we could proceed on that.
I do not think that in principle, anybody is against it but we think that it is the proper thing that ought to be done; it is the procedure that we are talking about.
Mr. Bagbin 1:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the first issue that was raised by the Hon Member for Old Tafo [Dr. Osei] which led him to quote article 181 (3); that was what he quoted. So that is what brought me in to respond the way I did and then I tried showing that there are two different procedures: when you are granting a loan and when you are contracting a loan.
Now, the first procedure is the one dealing with 181(1) and 181(2). The second procedure under 181(3) is talking about the Act of Parliament; that has been done.
Now, as to whether when the Government is contracting a loan, the Agreement must be signed before it is laid in the House, which is the issue now, is something that we in this House have insisted that before our Government commits our country to some agreements, particularly loans with countries, we the representatives of the people should go through the provisions of that Agreement to make sure that it is in the interest of the country.
We have insisted many times and we
always say, we even discussed with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other development partners that they should not always go and make a done-deal and then try to bring Parliament in belatedly where everything is agreed upon and then we are called to rubber-stamp. We decried that and insisted that before our Governments append their signatures to such an Agreement, they should bring them before this House for us to have the opportunity to go through. That is what was done in the first instance. The Agreement was therefore brought for us to go through to make sure that the national interest is safeguarded before the signing of the Agreement. It is the same Agreement; the terms are the same.
But if our view is now that they should sign them before they come and lay them, we can go according to that. But I think the better view is for us to have the opportunity as a House to go through them before they are signed.
I can only fault the Ministry for not waiting for us to pass it before signing because the proper thing is for us to go through it; that is what we insisted on and that is what was accepted and that is why it was laid unsigned.
So I agree with that one.

That one I believe we have to look into. But I just asked the Hon Minister and the Chairman of the Committee and they said it is the same Agreement. The only difference is that it is signed because as the Ranking Member has raised the issue of time. But they are discussing it with the Ranking Member and the Chairman and the members of the Committee and they have not raised any issue to show that

the interest of the country is not properly protected in the Agreement. That is what might have encouraged, the Hon Minister to sign the Agreement. And I think that they should have waited for us to pass the resolution before they signed because that was our request as a House and I think that is the proper procedure to follow.
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
The question is,
Mr. Ambrose P. Dery 1:30 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, carrying on from where the Majority Leader has left. What we have before us as far as this motion is concerned, is the unsigned Agreement. That being so, going by Standing Order 95 (2) (3), it means that the situation has changed and we can now defer within reasonable time for the signed one to be brought in and approved accordingly.
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
Not only brought
in but considered.
Mr. Dery 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, and
considered because if they are the same or not the same it is now left with the appropriate committee to come and report to this House before we approve. So I think that the situation is different because what we are moving on with is an unsigned one. There is now a signed one and we should go to deal with it.
Mr. Bagbin 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I want
us to get the procedure correct because if it is our position that we should consider signed Agreements -- [Interruption.] Now, if it is our position that we should consider unsigned Agreements and then when they are signed they are re-laid - [An Hon Member: No.] Aha! That is why
Mr. Bagbin 1:30 p.m.


there is a problem here. Now, our position is that before they sign the Agreement they should be brought for us to consider them, then after that they now go to enter. This is because we have all agreed that our national interest is well taken care of. That is why I said the Ministry should have waited for us to make the resolution.

Now, they did not, so we have in our possession the unsigned Agreement which is in accordance with procedure and request. That is what we requested; that is what is before us and so do not let us allow the signed one to be introduced. Let us go on with the unsigned one, we approve - [Interruption] - and that is our request; that is the procedure, then they continue to sign at the Ministry and that one is not before us. That is our request. What is before us is the unsigned Agreement.
Mr. J. K. Avedzi 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we
must get the issue clear. The procedure, I know in this House is that for Parliament to make an input into the Agreement, we agreed that the document should be initialled, not signed. It should be initialled that Parliament will work with that document before the signing would be done. So in this particular case, the document that was referred to the Committee that we worked on was initialled by the two parties and it is the same document that was signed.
So actually, we are going - [Inter- ruption.] So Madam Speaker, if we are changing the position now that the Agreement should be signed and when it comes to Parliament, we only rubber- stamp it, we should know from here. But if we should go by the old system that we are used to and we had precedence in the previous Government that the document should be initialled, Parliament will work with it and then Government goes ahead and sign while we satisfy ourselves that the terms and agreements are in the interest of
the nation, then we should go by whatever we have done by the Committee and go ahead and lay the Paper.
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
Hon Members, the
question of time comes in too, does it not? Whatever we decide to do this particular incident is a question of time, that if it is not done within a certain time limit it will lapse. Is that not it Hon Osei?
Dr. Osei 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I brought
this up as I said because it is in the public domain. I think the Committee's Report, we should look at the signed Agreement to confirm what we worked on before we brought the Report but it has already been signed. The Committee could have met yesterday, today, Monday and made sure that our Report, we can prove that it is consistent with the signed version before laying it, then this matter will not arise.
The Majority Leader is agreeing with me. It should not take long for the Committee to do this work to bring it back to the House so that the right thing will be done because we want to make sure that what we consider is what has been signed. We do not want to come back and say something else is different. We will all be in trouble.
So I think the proper thing for the Committee is to stand this down, let us review the signed Agreement to make sure it is consistent with what we used for the Report and then bring it back and lay it, then it is not a problem.
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
Except that if
you say that there is a convention which allows an initialled Agreement to be laid before the House and at the same time also permit a signed Agreement then what is the problem?
Dr. Osei 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the problem is that,there could be a difference between the initialld one and the signed one and no member of the Committee, maybe, except the Chairman has got the chance to look at it. But it is this House's responsibility and not the Committee's; and our responsibility is to check that and bring it back to the House. [Interrup- tion.] I am not a constitutional lawyer but I think this House will be best served - [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
I thought you had
heard the lawyer that it could be done.
Dr. Osei 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the signed
version, I think should be seen by the Committee members and consequently, this House so that we can be sure that there is no variance.
Madam Speaker 1:30 p.m.
But before approval
you would see a signed Agreement, would you not? No, not today, in the course of time.
Mr. Ghartey 1:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker,
my worry is that, like you are saying, before we approve we must see a signed Agreement. So when you bring an unsigned Agreement here, the draft, you initial it or whatever you do to it, you bring it before the Committee, the Committee works with it, then it gives you permission to go and sign it. If what you are signing is different from what was approved, how does Parliament know?
Madam Speaker, there has been precedence in this House where signed Agreements have been amended. Indeed, the Vodafone Agreement, it was signed and brought and copious amendments were made because the Committee insisted that even though it had been signed, they did not agree with this, they did not agree with that. The fact that you have signed an Agreement, does not mean it cannot be
changed by Parliament because it must be subjected to parliamentary approval.
My worry is that if the Agreement is
unsigned, if the only time Parliament sees the Agreement, it is unsigned Agreement or initialled Agreement, what happens if in the worst case scenario a change is made because that Agreement never comes back to Parliament. Parliament is not the custodian of the signed Agreement after that. It is the Ministry, it is the Executive, the Attorney-General's office, Finance or whatever Ministry was involved with the Agreement and not Parliament. And the only time we see the signed Agreement is when we consider it. So if we consider just an unsigned Agreement, we may be running into problems.
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
I think I am inclined to agree with the Hon Yieleh Chireh because how does Parliament even consider an unsigned Agreement? It should be signed, not initialled. At least, then it is in our domain, it is a signed Agreement which we are considering. I am still groping for the correct answer, please.
Mr. Bagbin 1:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, let me just assist in this. If the Agreement is signed, what are we considering? If it is signed between the parties, that is, Government has signed, entered the Agreement, everything is agreed upon, what are you considering? Please, there are two different things, I have shown the differences. It is when our money, our money is being taken for somebody as a loan that we must authorize the Government to enter into that. But when Government is contracting money, then it is - [Interruptions] -- Why?
I have read all, it is at this stage that this House -- I even said we proceeded to the World Bank in our discussion to say -

“do not come and sign anything with our government -- the Executive and they bring it to us and say we should rubber stamp it”

But no, what they did was to bring the initialled, not the signed one and therefore, this Committee was asked to consider it. If the terms are in order, the Government will then sign it. [Interruptions.] That is not before this House - [Interruptions.]
rose
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
Well, let us hear from the Hon Member, he was also a former Attorney General.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:40 p.m.
Madam
Speaker, really for me, either way the Constitution and the laws of this country state that unless the terms and conditions of a loan have been laid before Parliament, the loan shall not come into operation, signed or unsigned.
So for me, yes, perhaps, we have practical problems, we have been in government before, we have had to sign Agreements on the basis of good faith. However, the other party understands that unless and until the terms and conditions are approved by Parliament, the Agreement does not come into operation and there is always a clause to that effect.
Indeed, after an Agreement or the terms have been approved by Parliament, the Attorney-General is expected to sign a document to indicate that all forms and procedures under the Constitution have been complied with.
So for me, even if Government signed something yesterday, it does not bind us, we can change it and Government will be compelled to go and effect the amend- ment.
I was not here when the argument commenced.
However, that is my view; an Agreement was laid before this House, the House is
considering the Agreement, irrespective of whatever Government has signed it, what the House agrees to, is what the Government is bound by the Constitution of this country to sign.
rose
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
Hon Members, I think I have had enough education and that I can make a ruling. Except that I see you standing, Hon Minority Leader. Maybe, I will give you the last before I make my ruling. Hon Minority Leader.
Mr. Albert Kan-Dapaah 1:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, my understanding of all this is that, an Agreement was brought to this House, it was properly referred to the Committee, the Committee has considered it and the Committee is satisfied with it and they have decided to bring it to the floor. Before we have a look of it on the floor of the House, we are being told that in respect of the same Agreement, an Agreement has been signed.
What it means is that if we consider this Agreement, it is of no effect to the extent that the new one now has to be brought here for the Committee to discuss. Are we saying that we are going to consider this one and take it to be the same thing as has been signed? So there is no point in approving this to the extent that we know a new Agreement has been signed.
We have now been told by the Hon Minister that the Agreement that we have sent to the Committee is the same Agreement that he has signed.
Madam Speaker, you have already ruled that in spite of that we need to see that Agreement and reconsider that Agreement that has now been signed. So why do we want to worry ourselves on
this one which has been superceded by a subsequent event?
To me, we need to step it down, have a look at the one that has been signed and make life easy for everybody.
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
Does anybody dispute the fact that if we saw the signed one, it will not be preferable? Does anybody dispute the fact or against seeing the signed one before we progress? That is because either way, we could go on. But when a matter like this has been raised -- if this matter were not raised, we could carry on with the convention. But this matter has been raised, that in the meantime, before we could even consider it, they had seen some signed Agreement which is not the same because the other one we considered was not signed.
So is there any objection to us seeing the signed Agreement so that we carry on? And if they have copies here, would it be wrong to stand this down and look at it? So we quickly deal with the matter because we do not want to delay matters. So I will suggest that if you have copies, let us see them, distribute copies, let us carry on with the work of the House and if it is the same, we go on.
Mr. Bagbin 1:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we cannot distribute copies of an Agreement signed by the Ministry. The procedure as we know it, is that the Agreement will have to be brought and laid. The Agreement is not laid until it is programmed by the Business Committee and on the floor. I know you can ask for permission to introduce new matters. I know. And that has to be done before the document is laid. When it is laid, it becomes the property of the House, then copies can be distributed.
Now, my fear is that, we will be opening a window where at anytime a report of a committee is being presented, an allegation is made or a document is produced that something has been
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
Does it not help with our work?
Mr. Bagbin 1:40 p.m.
Madam Speaker, no. Clearly, the law has been stated by the former Majority Leader and the Minister for Justice that what we resolve and approve here is what is going to take effect, not what has been signed by any person anywhere.
What we resolve and approve here is what will take effect and we in practice have considered both but we as a House insisted that the proper thing is to bring the initialled one and not the signed one. So that is what we are doing; let us follow up and approve what has been initialled and brought to us and that is what is going to be effective. Whatever has been signed, whether it is different from what we are approving or not, is of no effect, that will not apply.
Madam Speaker 1:40 p.m.
I have heard enough from Hon Members to help me to come to a decision on this matter. Shall I now announce my decision because if we go on, we will never -
rose
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I think you specifically mentioned my name that I should make an intervention; and then the Hon Member for Afigya Sekyere West (Mr. Kan-Dapaah) intervened -- And since you did not rule him out of order, I thought you had granted him space.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I think what we are concerned with here is a matter of procedure, it is procedure. And indeed, article 181 (5) talks about the - that this article, and it refers to article 181 and Madam Speaker, with your permission I quote:
“. . . shall, with the necessary modifications by Parliament, apply to an international business or economic transaction to which the Government is a party as it applies to a loan.”
Madam Speaker, it is the procedure; whether we are to consider a signed Agreement or an initialled Agreement. Madam Speaker, that is what I spoke about when I said this matter had come to this House on many occasions, and we have debated and debated this matter several times over until we came to adopt a position that we should deal with the initialled documents.
The initialled document has come here, we have processed it, and just before we give approval, the same document for whatever reason is signed. As the Majority Leader has said, that is the mistake of the Ministry. [Interruption] -- That is what the Majority Leader said, you cannot say that we do not know.
Madam Speaker, we cannot close our eyes over this matter. And so the issue now is, if we give approval - [Inter-ruption] -- Madam Speaker, because it is part of the process -- because if one looks at -- I am not too sure that we just -- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
We are laying these Papers for distribution. Is it not? And so it will come up again when we really debate the matter.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
Madam
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
Hon Member, shall I pause here. Hon Members, having regard to the state of business of the House, I hereby direct that Sitting be extended beyond the normal hours. It is getting to two o'clock, so we are extending the time.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
Madam

Madam Speaker, my Hon Colleague, Hon Fuseini Inusah is asking what is controversial about it? Or what is different about it? Madam Speaker, if I should remind this House, just last Friday, there was some controversy when the Hon Minister responsible for Energy came here, he assured of the authenticity of a letter that was with him. And I said that if there is anything wrong and we discover later, we may have to bring him back. He gave all the assurance. When we came

here and the letter came, we saw there was everything wrong with it.

So how can we go on that track? That is why I am saying that it is important for us to have a look at the signed document; just to assure ourselves that we are not dealing with two different documents.

Madam Speaker, because if the wording in the Agreement is even the same, some punctuation could even affect the interpretation of the Agreement; so it is important for us to look at it and then we move on. I do not think that it should arouse controversy at all.

Madam Speaker, I think by the indications that you gave, we should not be even spending any more time on this because you have given that indication that there will not be anything wrong if we see the signed documents before we proceed.

Madam Speaker, that is what you have said; and if that is your indication and nobody has challenged it on a substantive motion, Madam Speaker, then that should hold and then we move on.

I thank you.
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
Shall I now rule?
Mr. Bagbin 1:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, Parlia- ment has the opportunity to always crosscheck whether what we approve here is what is being applied by the Government. And it is provided for in article 181 (7). We can at anytime, always request the Hon Minister responsible for Finance and Economic Planning to submit these things for us to crosscheck. It is there, and I quote:
“The Minister responsible for finance shall, at such times as Parliament may determine, present to Parliament any information concerning any discrepancies relating to -
(a) the granting of loans, their repayment and servicing;
(b) the payment into the Con- solidated Fund or other public fund of moneys derived from loans raised on institutions outside Ghana.”
So Madam Speaker, the issue that he is raising, that when we approve this, which is initialled and then what has been signed, if there are differences - he is trying to presume that that one that is signed is what is going to be applied. We have this provision to request for them to bring them anytime. We can then see what we approved and what they are applying whether there are discrepancies, and we will apply the brakes. I do not want us to try to introduce something that is not before us.
The right procedure is being adopted, let us approve. And let us insist that that is what has been approved, and that is what is effective. That is all what we are aware of.
rose
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
Hon Members, shall I now rule? We were dealing with Laying of Papers, item 5 (a), and I thought, we had already finished with 5 (a) and have said it is for distribution. Is that the one we are now - [Interruption] -- all of them? All right. And so we have finished one and the objection did not come before we -- [Interruption.]
Dr. Osei 1:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I was going to raise the objection before you allowed the Chairman to lay one. Because it was related to all three of them.
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
I know.
Dr. Osei 1:50 p.m.
Madam Speaker, and I did not catch your eye so -- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.
I know. So 5 (1)
Madam Speaker 1:50 p.m.


has been laid; 5 (2) and 5 (3), what affects them will affect this one. So we cannot go back to 5 (1) because it has been laid. But 5 (2) and (3), let us consider this issue.
rose
Madam Speaker 2 p.m.
As the Hon former Attorney-General said, a signed copy could be discussed, laid here and unsigned but initialled copy could be laid, and it has been the convention. And I am not one for changing conventions unless it is for a very good reason. If by convention, the two are submitted, and if the final Agreement will have to come here for our approval before it operates, then I do not see much that could go wrong.

I am saying so especially since the Hon Dr. Osei drew our attention to the fact that some copy had been signed but he did not tell us that it was different from what was raised here specifically.
Dr. Osei 2 p.m.
Point of information.
Unfortunately, I have not been privy to that. I read it in the newspapers and I raised - I was at the workshop with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning this week end - [Inter-ruptions.] Listen, listen! Please, listen, listen! Madam Speaker, I was at the workshop with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning this week end and I drew their attention to this problem. That is why I was raising it today so that they themselves will be aware of the problem. This is not a secret matter.
Madam Speaker 2 p.m.
I think you need to
be congratulated for drawing our attention. There is nothing wrong. Hon Member, it means he is very vigilant and there is nothing wrong. I think I for one would like to know all these things --
Mr. Fuseini 2 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we
commend him for being vigilant.
Madam Speaker, experience will recall that I drew your attention to a development that is gradually taking root in this House that a Member rises and makes an assertion without more and that seems to be gaining ground and taking root in this House.
Madam Speaker, a newspaper has reported that an Agreement had been signed and that again has become the basis for this argument. Madam Speaker, and we know that the newspaper, instead of saying a document had been initialled, it would say a document had been signed and then no one has sighted a signed document.
In any case, Madam Speaker -- if there is in existence of a signed document, will this House open its eyes to a document that is not before this House? Madam Speaker, the rules of this House are very clear on that. We are not minded to open our eyes to documents that do not come before us -- [Interruption] this House, clearly.
Madam Speaker 2 p.m.
But we are not
also to close our minds if something is going wrong and our attention is drawn to, honourably. So if an Hon Member draws our attention, like I said, he drew our attention to the fact that something had been signed. He did not say that there was a particular discrepancy. But it is a good thing that our attention has been drawn to that and we debated it.
As I said, if the convention is that we can deal with an unsigned but initialled copy and particularly considering the fact that we are going to come to it again before we approve, as well as the fact that, article 181 (7) also permits us to correct discrepancies even at any stage such times as they arise, I will rule that we carry on with this, laying of Papers. We will have ample time to consider the points that were raised by Hon Isaac Osei except to commend him for bringing this
to our attention.
Thank you Honourable.
So now we go on to item 5 (ii). The
Chairman, can you lay your Report?
By the Chairman of the Committee --
(ii) Report of the Finance Committee on the Supplementary Loan Agreement between the Govern- ment of Ghana and the African Development Fund (ADF) for an amount of thirteen million, four hundred thousand Units of Account (UA13,400,000) [equi- valent to US$20.10m] for the implementation of the Akatsi- Dzodze-Noepe Road Upgrading Project (Lot 2: Dzodze-Akanu Section and Overlay).
(iii) Report of the Finance Committee on the Supplementary Loan Agreement between the Govern- ment of Ghana and the African Development Fund (ADF) for an amount of four million, three hundred thousand Units of Account (UA4,300,000) [equivalent to US$6.45m] for the implemen- tation of the UEMOA-Ghana Road Programme 1, Techiman-Kintampo Road Rehabilitation Project (Lot 2: Apaaso-Kintampo).
Madam Speaker 2 p.m.
Item 5 (iv), Chairman?
Mr. Avedzi 2 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Report is not ready, it is still with the Committee.
Madam Speaker 2 p.m.
Honourable, I did not hear what you said.
Mr. Avedzi 2 p.m.
Madam Speaker, the Committee is still working on that Report; 5 (iv), the Committee is still working on it; so it is not ready. So it should be stepped down to be programmed later.
MOTIONS 2 p.m.
Chairman of the Committee (Mr. James Klutse Avedzi) 2 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Joint Committee on Finance and Mines and Energy on the Credit Agreement between the Republic of Ghana and Societe Generale (Canada) (with Insurance Guarantee from Export Development Canada (EDC) for an amount of one hundred and ninety-four million, three hundred thousand United States dollars (US$194,300,000.00) to finance the construction of a 132-megawatt combined-cycle thermal power plant at Aboadze.
Madam Speaker, in doing so, I wish
to present the Joint Report of your Committee on Finance and Mines and Energy.
1.0 Introduction
The Credit Agreement between the Republic of Ghana and Societe Generale (Canada)(with insurance guarantee from Export Development Canada [EDC]) for an amount of one hundred and ninety-four million, three hundred thousand United States dollars (US$194,300,000.00) to finance the construction of a 132-megawatt combined-cycle thermal power plant at Aboadze was laid in the House on Tuesday, 2nd June, 2009 and referred to a Joint Committee on Finance and Mines and Energy for consideration and report.
The Joint Committee met and considered the Agreement with the Deputy Ministers for Finance and Economic
Chairman of the Committee (Mr. James Klutse Avedzi) 2:10 p.m.
2.0 Background
Government has an objective to increase the existing power generation capacity of the country to ensure adequate and reliable power supply. It is projected that Ghana would require an installed generation capacity of 5,000 MW to meet her expected power demand as the country moves to attain a middle-income status.
The country presently has an installed generation capacity of 1,925 MW (excluding the 126 MW Emergency Power Plants). Ongoing and committed power generation projects by Government/VRA and Independent Power Producers (IPPs) are expected to increase the installed power generation capacity to 5,000MW by the year 2015. This 132 MW project therefore forms part of the planned installed power generation capacity of 5,000 MW in the medium-term.
3.0 Purpose of the Loan
The purpose of the facility is to finance the construction of a 132-megawatt (MW) combined-cycle thermal power Plant at a proposed site near the existing thermal plant complex at Aboadze in the Western Region.
4.0 Terms and Conditions
The terms and conditions of the facility are as follows:
Loan Amount: US$194,300,000.00
Interest Rate: US 6-M Libor+1.6 per cent
Grace Period: 2 Years
Repayment Period: 12 Years
Maturity Period: 14 Years
Insurance (repayment period): 4 per cent (semi- annually on
reducing balance)
Arrangement and Management Fees: 0.6 per cent (flat on loan amount)
Flexibility Fee: 0 .15 pe r cent (flat on loan amount)
Commitment Fees: 0.5 per cent (cal. on undrawn amount).
5.0 Observations
The Committee observed that the loan facility of US$194,300,000.00 covers the total project cost of one hundred and eighty- five million, four hundred thousand United States Dollars (US$185,400,000.00) and EDC insurance premium of eight million, nine hundred thousand United States dollars (US$8,900,000.00) for the first eighteen months or the disbursement period.
The insurance cover during the repayment period will however be charged on 95 per cent of the Principal At Risk (PAR) plus Interest Due (ID) at a rate of 4 per cent per annum.
The Committee also noted that works under the project would be covered by a Sovereign Guarantee provided by the Government of Canada.
It was noted that the engineering, procurement and construction of the project would be executed by Canadian Commercial Corporation (CCC), an
agency of the Government of Canada and their sub-contractor Magellan Aerospace Corporation of Canada. Magellan has previously built power generation facilities in Russia, Ukraine and Canada.
The Committee was informed that the 132MW plant to be constructed under the project will have the ability to use three (3) fuels, namely Light Crude Oil (LCO), Diesel no. 2 or Natural Gas. The plant would be made up of six (6) units thus making it highly reliable and flexible in delivering power at all times. Also, the combined-cycle nature of the plant would significantly improve fuel efficiency, thus reducing the cost of fuel required by about 33 per cent as compared to a plant of the same size in a simple-cycle mode.
The technical team from the Ministry of Energy informed the Committee that the plant, when constructed would make use of natural gas expected to be produced from Ghana's Jubilee Field by the close of the year 2010.
As to the level of local participation in the execution of the project, the Committee was informed that Ghanaian companies are expected to benefit from sub-contracts under the project.

These sub-contracts may include (but not limited to) site preparation and construction of fuel tanks.

The Committee noted that the Flexibility Fee would become applicable only when Government decides to opt for a fixed rate of interest as against the floating rate. (The floating rate being US 6M Libor + 1.6 per cent)

The Committee also noted that a legal fee of 0.08 per cent of the loan amount was provided in the agreement. That any legal

fee that should be submitted for payment should not exceed the above percentage.

Taxes

Clause 17 of the Agreement provides that any present or future taxes, levies, imposts, duties, deductions, withholdings, fees, liabilities and similar charges levied by any taxing authority in Ghana, as well as all bank charges, if any, on principal and/or interest and/or fees shall be borne in full by the borrower (that is the Government of Ghana).

Prepayment

The Committee was further informed that the Agreement permits Ghana to prepay the loan in advance of the repayment period under certain conditions.

Governing Law

The Agreement would be governed by the laws of the Province of Quebec and the federal laws of Canada.

1.0 Conclusion

In view of the relative favourable terms of the Agreement and the need for the country to augment its power generation capacity for accelerated development, the Committee recommends to the House to adopt this Report and approve by Resolution, the Credit Agreement between the Republic of Ghana and Societe Generale (Canada) (with insurance guarantee from Export Development Canada [EDC]) for an amount of one hundred and ninety-four million, three hundred thousand United States dollars (US$194,300,000.00) to finance the construction of a 132-megawatt combined- cycle thermal power plant at Aboadze in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution and section 7 of the Loans
Madam Speaker 2:10 p.m.
Any seconder?
Mr. Ignatius Baffour Awuah (NPP - Sunyani West) 2:10 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I rise to second the motion on the floor. The Report seeks the approval of the House for Government to borrow the sum of US $194,300,000.00 to finance a thermal power plant at Aboadze.
Madam Speaker, the loan as we have seen from the Report, is not a concessionary loan. It is a commercial loan with an interest of liable plus 1.6 per cent. There is an insurance premium of 4 per cent per annum on reducing balance basis, and there is an arrangement fee of 0.6 per cent and flexibility fee of 0.15 per cent.
Madam Speaker, it may interest you to note that the management fee of 0.6 per cent translates in real terms to 1.165 million dollars, which in cedis term is around 1.5 million cedis and in old Ghana cedis, it is around 15 billion cedis.
Madam Speaker, this is not a cheap facility. As I said earlier on, it is on commercial terms.
Apart from the cost of the loan being very high, Madam Speaker, my other concern is on the objective of the facility itself. That is to help finance another thermal generation plant in Ghana.
Madam Speaker, as we are aware, in Ghana we have two major sources of power generation. That is hydro and thermal and we are aware that hydro, by far, is cheaper than thermal in generating power. Apart from that, Madam Speaker, thermal uses either gas, gasoline or crude oil to generate, which as of now, we do not produce in our country locally. We may have to depend on producing
countries to import to support the power generation which in actual fact will also add additional burden to VRA.
So Madam Speaker, in seconding this particular motion, I want us to critically look at the cost of the loan and then the need for us to lay more emphasis on production of power from hydro sources rather than from thermal sources.
Madam Speaker, I will want at this juncture to advise the Minister for Energy - I do know for a fact that during the time of NPP, studies were done on the possibility of generating hydro power on rivers like Pra, White Volta, the Ankobra and some other rivers which we need to continue, but whilst waiting for that to be done, Madam Speaker, I submit that in the interim we need to be able to keep pace with our energy demands.
On that note I second the motion on the floor.
Thank you very much.
Madam Speaker 2:10 p.m.
The motion has
been moved and seconded. It is for consideration of the House.
Question proposed. Mr. David Oppon-Kusi (NPP --
Ofoase/Ayirebi): Madam Speaker, I rise to strongly oppose the motion on the floor. Madam Speaker, I will give reasons why I oppose the motion.
I am one of the very few people who will go against any intervention that will seek to improve our erratic and unreliable power supply. For three days last week in my own constituency, we had to sleep in darkness. So I will support any move that seeks to improve our power supply.
Madam Speaker, just last week, no less a person than our own President, His Excellency John Evans Fiifi Atta Mills,
told us and the whole world that we owe so much that we are unable to access credit.
Part of the reason why we cannot even get fuel on credit and other things is that we owe so much and I took his word for it.
Madam Speaker, as a representative of the people of Afoase/Ayeribi who are crying because of high fuel prices and who want to see this economy on sound footing, until we get to a point where our own President will tell us that the reason for our inability to get loans is not because of the level of our loans, I do not think that we need to add more to a situation where we cannot manage.
Madam Speaker, if our President finds it very difficult to get credit outside because of our loan burden, then I would always oppose any new loans that will be ratified by this House and until we get to a point where we can manage our loans - Madam Speaker -- if we cannot manage what we have, then there is no reason why we should go on and add.
So on this note, Madam Speaker, it is not only for this loan, but until we can manage our loans, until we get to a level where this does not become a burden, this does not become something that will stop us from getting more loans, we do not need to add more to our loan burden
I do not want to quote the figure His Excellency gave, but the reason he has given is that, our loan portfolio is unmanageable - they cannot manage it. So if we cannot manage what we have, how do we continue to ask this House to impose more burden on an already unmanageable situation?
So with this Madam Speaker, I strongly oppose the contraction of new loans in addition to what we already have.
Thank you Madam Speaker. [Hear!
Mr. A. W. G. Abayateye (NDC - Sege) 2:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I rise to urge the whole House to support this loan Agreement to alleviate the burden we are having on electricity.
Madam Speaker, indeed, the loan is a commercial loan as the Deputy Ranking Member of the Committee said; but the benefits to be accrued from it is what we are looking at.
I remember in 2006, 2007 thereby, when we were having the energy crisis, several generators were imported into the country and they were planted at Tema and other places. They were using plant diesel to run. But what can we say? That was an ad hoc solving of the situation and it did not take us anywhere. We are trying to solve the problem permanently.
These things, which are being done -- this particular project is going to depend on either light crude oil, diesel or natural gas. Thank God that we are expecting to be reaping the gas from the West African Gas Pipeline anytime from now. Therefore, the point of orders being raised that it is going to be a burden, I see it in a different way.
Madam Speaker, we need to handle issues holistically and one of these is the planting of this power at Aboadze, raising about 132 megawatts, is to solve the problem once and for all. We are talking of hydro, indeed, hydro is cheaper but we cannot control the heavens. The heavens are controlled by the Maker and our cry now is that, most of the problems that we are having is because of the rainfall pattern. We are building the Bui Dam but it can also end up as we are if the heavens do not come in.
Mr. J. K. Adda (NPP - Navrongo Central) 2:20 p.m.
Thank you Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to the motion on the floor of the House.
Madam Speaker, why I support the motion is because this is a very important project and it will augment the power needs of the country.
I would like to comment on a few things that were said by the last Hon Member who spoke.
Madam Speaker, indeed, initially, I was getting up to oppose what he said but he has come round to acknowledge the good work that the New Patriotic Party (NPP) Administration did just before they left office.
Madam Speaker, on the issue of electricity generators, he said that those generators did not take us anywhere. That, I disagree with. Indeed, the emergency generators did provide us with some power to stabilise the situation while we were taking action on the immediate to long-term plan. One of the plans that we had brought up which is the one we are debating now in this House, is a plan that is going to support the long-term generation capacity of the country.
Madam Speaker, how did this come about? It came about from the very good initiatives of the NPP Administration.
Indeed, the idea to bring about this plan was mooted by ex-President Kufuor's Administration, we had moved quite far with all the negotiations to be able to implement it. So they have come round to support us in the sense that, whatever action that we are now taking, in the long- term, to prevent what it is that he seems to be suggesting as ad hoc plans. Indeed, we would move in the right direction in trying to implement the medium-term plan.
So I commend him for supporting the motion. I only wish he would have added that he is congratulating the NPP Administration for actually initiating this action.
Madam Speaker., there are some benefits from the plant. Being a six-unit combined-cycle plant that uses three fuels, there is the very good advantage of improvement and efficiency of power generation. And clearly, this is something that we must all support. The flexibility to move from diesel to light crude oil and to use natural gas, is a very crtiical thing that this power plant brings about in the country.
Except that when we run out of one product, we can go onto another one or if the cost of fuel goes up, diesel goes up like it has gone up recently, then we can move on to natural gas if it is available.
The advantages are very clear and I think that we should all support this motion for us to be able to implement the project.
Madam Speaker, there is the additional benefit of Ghanaian companies being able to get some contracts from the imple- mentation of the project. This is one of the good reasons, and something that we should all be happy about and support so that we can start implementing the project as quickly as possible.
Madam Speaker, there is one issue that I have on this whole matter. The previous Administration had recognised the difficulties that the premier power generation agency of this country, that is, VRA, had some shortcomings in terms of its ability to manage thermal plants. So we were negotiating action to break the VRA into two companies -- One that will locally focus on the hydro side and the other will focus on the thermal side. With this, we can improve efficiency and get specialised, and technical expertise to ensure that the thermal generation capacity of the country is competitive globally. Otherwise, we will keep on buying thermal plants and then we do not have the capacity to operate and maintain them.
I therefore, wish to call on this Government that as they are continuing with the ideas of the previous Government to implement some of the projects that they have started. I wish to urge them to also consider the idea of separating thermal from hydro. That is to say, breakVRA into thermal company as well as hydro company. Two separate companies that would specialise in their areas of expertise and can manage their enterprises very well.
While I urge Hon Colleagues to support the motion, Madam Speaker, I wish to commend the NPP's Administration for initiating this project.
Thank you Madam Speaker.
Mr. E. Armah-Kofi Buah (NDC - Ellembele) 2:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I rise in support of the motion to approve this loan Agreement for the 132 megawatts of power generation. While I support the motion, I would like to revisit some of the issues raised by my Hon Colleagues, who spoke earlier.
Madam Speaker, I would like to point some of the missed opportunities during the 8 years of the NPP Administration for
failing, for example, to turn some of the single-cycle plants into combined-cycle. And the NDC has the opportunity to turn a lot of the single-cycle in Aboadze into a combined-cycle. Those decisions were postponed and we are happy that we are going to quickly do that to the benefit of the country.
We just went to Asogli Thermal Plant today which was inaugurated -- the President is very, very aggressive on this goal to ensure that we as a country, we are moving to achieve the goal of 5,000 megawatts. Through that, Madam Speaker, a lot of decisions that unfortunately were postponed, have already been addressed within the five-month period that the NDC Administration had been in power. And I am very happy to be part of it.
Dr. Matthew O. Prempeh (NPP - Manhyia) 2:20 p.m.
Madam Speaker, I rise to support this motion and it is one of the few motions. I think both sides of the House can all take satisfaction from because it is going to solve a problem we all hope never existed -- frequent power cuts.
In supporting this motion, I would urge my Hon Friend, the Deputy Minister for Energy to take absolute control not of the project, but of Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG).
Of late, what has been happening with ECG -- Government seems to be pouring a lot of money into generation, into transmission, into distribution, but we are not getting the value for money. The happenings and the goings-on in ECG need to be investigated for us to see to the benefits of these investments that we are making. ECG losses total about 20 something per cent, and if you quantify
Madam Speaker 2:30 p.m.
Thank you, Hon Members. I will close the debate at this stage and now put the Question.
Question put and motion agreed to.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 2:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, if you look at the Resolution that the Hon Minister is coming to move, I doubt if we have the requisite number to carry that Resolution. So I have been signalling the Leadership that we should wait till tomorrow morning when we have the numbers and then you put the Question. [Interruptions.]
Madam Speaker, if you look at the Resolution, it does not only require that there should be a quorum, it requires that we must be not less than 116, more than one-half of Members. We are not even 100. It is just a Resolution which we can do by voice vote, but when it is obvious that we do not have the numbers, I am of the view that it would not be right for us to do so. We can take it tomorrow very early in the morning. I am therefore drawing Madam Speaker's attention to this.
Madam Speaker 2:30 p.m.
Hon Member, are
you suggesting that early tomorrow the House would be full? It never is.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 2:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, we will certainly have more than one-half. We must have an appreciable number, but when we have so many empty seats and it is so obvious that we cannot be more than one-half, I believe it would be proper for us to defer the Resolution till tomorrow when we have the appreciable number.
Mr. Bagbin 2:30 p.m.
Madam Speaker, Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah is right, we did a count and we have 71 Members and 71 is far below more than half. I think we can take this tomorrow morning when we get the numbers. It is a matter of the Resolution and the voting. This is because, usually, we do not debate the Resolutions, I think that we should take both tomorrow. Others were proposing that we take the Resolution by moving the motion and then voting tomorrow, but usually we do not debate Resolutions once we debated the motions. So I want to agree with him and to urge you to let us take this tomorrow.
In the circumstances, if I may then proceed to the next issue to urge Madam Speaker, to duly adjourn the House. I am not moving because it is after 2.00 o'clock and you do not need anybody to move but I am just urging you to do so now, considering the work we have done so far, particularly heated arguments about procedure.
Madam Speaker 2:30 p.m.
Hon Member, you are not moving so I will adjourn this House.
Hon Members, the House is adjourned till Thursday, 18th June, 2009 at 10 o'clock in the forenoon.
ADJOURNMENT 2:30 p.m.
  • The House was adjourned at 2.35 p.m. till 18th June, 2009 at 10.00 a.m.