Debates of 6 Jul 2009

MADAM SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:50 a.m.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 10:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members, I
have the pleasure to introduce to you, a six- member delegation from the Parliament of Uganda who are here on a four-day study visit to our Parliament.
The delegation comprises four
Ministers of the Ugandan Parliamentary Service Commission and two officials of the Ugandan Parliament.
Hon Members, they are:
Hon Just ine Kasule Lumumba
-- Commissioner/Leader of Delegation
Hon Guma Gumisiriza -- Commissioner
Hon Obua Denis -- Commissioner
H o n F l o r e n c e I b i E k w a u - -
Com- missioner
Mr. Kasirye Ignatius --
Assistant Director
Ms Namazzi Sarah -- Secretary
They arrived in the country on Sunday, 5th July and will be leaving on Thursday, 9th July, 2009.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members,
we commence with Correction of Votes
Mr. Tanko Abdul-Rauf Ibrahim 10:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, page 6, number 14, I was in this House on Friday but my name is included on the list of Hon Members absent.
Madam Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Pages 7 - 13.
The Votes and Proceedings of Friday, 3rd July, 2009 as corrected be adopted as the true record of proceedings.
We now move to the Official Report of
Friday, 3rd July, 2009. Any corrections?
Hon Members, in the absence of any
corrections, the Official Report of Friday, 3rd July, 2009 is hereby adopted as the true record of proceedings.
Hon Members, we move to item 3. Question time.
Mr. Isaac Kwame Asiamah - rose—
Madam Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Yes?
Mr. I. K. Asiamah 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker, thank you. I want your guidance on this. I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee. We have had a Report that has been laid before this House but there is a Report outstanding, that is the Report of the forensic audit of the National Vocational Training Institute for the period January 1997-December, 2002. We are told this Report is available but it has not been laid before this House. Meanwhile, those reports that even came later on have all been laid.
My issue is why is it that this one that dates back to January 1997 up to December 2002 has not been attended to but other reports that emanate from 2006 and others have all been laid before this House?
So I want to know why the delay of

this Report and the status of this very important Report; that is my concern.
Mr. John Tia Akologu 11 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, the Hon Member may have a point but maybe, he should have raised it when the Business Statement was read last week. We will consider it when we meet on Thursday and know what the situation is and act on it.
Thank you.
Madam Speaker 11 a.m.
Thank you, Honour-
able. I think you have your answer now?
Mr. I. K. Asiamah 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
my issue is, why the delay? It is here but why the delay? I think it is not enough to say that I should have raised it last week before the Business Committee - I want an answer to this very legitimate question that, why the delay in laying this very important Report before the House.
Mr. Akologu 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I do
not know whether some people or Hon Members always want to just raise red herrings. He has raised an issue, he wants to know why the delay. I have said that we do not know but if he had raised it when we presented the Business Statement, we would have looked at it. Now that we are doing it at this time, we will still go and look at it, and whatever the situation is, we will rectify it and then work on it. I cannot tell you why the delay, unless I get the information from the Clerks-at-Table.
Madam Speaker 11 a.m.
Item 3. Question
URGENT QUESTIONS 11 a.m.
MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR 11 a.m.
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, could the Minister confirm that the lack of space for training might be one of the reasons as my information is, that they have almost closed down the Police Training School at Pwalugu and whether that has not got to his notice.
Mr. Avoka 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker, this is
outside the Question under reference. He is talking about the issue of closure of a training school and this is clearly outside the Question under reference. If he wants, he can ask it as a major Question in the future and I will explain to him.
Mr. Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with respect to the Hon Minister, admissibility of questions rests with you and not with him. Madam Speaker, you may have to admit the question and if you admit the question, the Hon Minister will have to answer it. It does not lie in his mouth to say that it is not part of the substance but it is outside the substantive Question.
Mr. Akologu 11 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I
do not think the Hon Minister is out of order in this matter. He is aware of the practice of this House that if in case a supplementary question is outside the remit of the main Question, it may need notice. If he presented it otherwise, it is for Madam Speaker to give direction. He is not saying that he is providing what he knows the security should be. Madam Speaker is still in the Chair and can give
Mr. Akologu 11 a.m.


direction as to whether the Hon Member is in order or not. I think that the Hon Minister is just giving an indication that the Hon Member should come properly.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Member, obviously, the Hon Minister knows the processes of this House. But it is for me to rule whether the question is outside -- [Hear! Hear!] -- And what is the question again?
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the question was whether the lack of training space could be one of the reasons, as my information is that, there are moves to close down the Police Training School at Pwalugu, and obviously, that goes into training and the capacity to train more personnel. I do not think this falls outside what he could answer. If he does not know, he can come back.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Member, to be very, very honest with you, I heard the beginning of the question. Can you repeat it? Move further away from the microphone.
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11:10 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, my question is, whether the lack of training space is a factor, as my information is that, there are moves to close down the Pwalugu Police Training School in the Upper East Region.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Minister, if you can answer the question, please answer it? It flows from -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, it is not
due to lack of training space that we have suspended the recruitment exercise now. It is due to the reasons that I have indicated earlier to the House.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Member, the
next question, if you have any.
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, is the Hon Minister suggesting that until accommodation is provided for all incoming trainees or people who are going to be enlisted, there will absolutely be no recruitment? Could he confirm that there will be no recruitment until accom- modation is provided?
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, as I said, the exercise has merely been suspended and not cancelled. We are looking into other possibilities, for example, some District, Metropolitan and Municipal Assemblies have indicated their preparedness to build accommodation for office and residential accommodation as well. We are taking note of that. We are also taking note of other areas where we need to renovate certain structures to be able to put the personnel there.
So when these things are in place, assuring the police personnel of both residential and office accommodation, we shall recruit. It is not cancelled, it is only suspended.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Member, ask your third question.
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, while this House might not indulge in speculation in asking Questions, could the Hon Minister confirm whether this action is being influenced by the World Bank conditionalities of non- employment?
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Minister, yes, he is suggesting -- What is the answer?
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, that is not the case.
Dr. A. A. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister is aware that the Government has signed a loan with the World Bank, and one of the conditions, with your
permission, I quote:
“… to implement a net hiring freeze in the public sector.”
Is the Hon Minister saying that he is going to be able to hire people in the light of these conditions? Is the Hon Minister saying that in the light of the commitment to implement a net hiring freeze, he will be able to hire people into the Ghana Police Service, if accommodation is available or not?
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I do not seem to appreciate the question. There is no issue of hiring people in the Ghana Police Service. You are talking about recruitment; I do not know whether the two issues are the same.
Dr. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I need your guidance as to whether or not recruitment and hiring do not amount to the same effect.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Recruitment and hiring?
Dr. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, do they not amount to the same thing?
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Well, it depends. I would not say they are of the same effect, recruitment and hiring. I could hire but I cannot recruit. Is it not it?
Dr. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, my question
is, this Government has signed off an agreement with the World Bank, and one of the conditions is to implement a net hiring freeze in the public sector of which the Ghana Police Service is one. Is he saying that in the light of this condition, they could still be able to recruit?
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon Member,
would you not rather ask whether the Hon
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.


Minister knows about this condition?
Dr. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, he is a
Member of this House, and he is a member of Cabinet, which approved this condition. So, I am sure he is already aware. I just want to know whether in the light of this, he would still be able to -
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Well, that was why I thought if he knew about it -- [Inter- ruption.]
Dr. Osei 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, he does.
Madam Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Then he will answer the question. So let us ask him then whether he knows. Hon Minister, he says there are conditionalities against recruitment.
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, my
Mr. H.H. Bayirga 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
with the increase in armed robbery and other crimes in the country, the recruitment was to augment the strength of the Ghana Police Service. Meanwhile, the housing of the Ghana Police Service in the country will be a very, very big project, and it will take years to complete. Is the Hon Minister saying that that project will be completed before they will have a look at recruit-ment?
Mr. Avoka 11:10 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I certainly appreciate the security concern that my Hon Colleague has raised, the threat of armed robbery and other criminal offences taking place in the country. Therefore, we ought to beef up police numbers to fight the menace.
But I want us to also appreciate that quality is as important as quantity, if not more important. It is not enough to go on
recruiting and recruiting to fight armed robbery and other criminal activities when we do not take care of their welfare. If they have no place to sleep, they have no office to stay and be trained and do their work, at the end of the day you will have a large number, that means nothing.
So, we appreciate the need to beef up numbers, but we should also take into account the need to improve the quality of training or the quality of personnel on the ground. Certainly, we need to motivate the personnel on the ground to be able to deliver.
If you have a large mass of policemen or security men who are demotivated, who feel that they are not well taken care of, in terms of accommodation, in terms of logistics, and the rest of them, at the end of day, the large numbers mean nothing. That is why I said earlier that, notwithstanding this position that we have taken, we are taking note or we are satisfied with the fact that some District Assemblies are offering to provide both office and residential accommodation for us to beef up security in their areas.
I am saying that the military and police commands are also trying to look at areas where they can renovate structures easily in place so that we can increase numbers of intake. When these are done, we shall certainly take care of his concern.
Mr. Albert Kan-Dapaah 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, it is important that the Hon Minister responds to specific questions. I am taking over from where my Colleague left.
Madam Speaker, maintenance of law and order is obviously a priority to all Ghanaians and His Excellency the President has assured us in this House during the Sessional Address that it will be a priority and we all applauded it. Everybody knows that lack of adequate personnel is responsible for this problem.
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Honourable, you
are asking him now of his opinion. Put it in a question then.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
does the Minister admit that the ban by the police administration on recruitment into the Service runs counter to the promise that His Excellency the President made to the country and that as long as the temporary ban exists, Ghanaians cannot expect to see -- temporary ban - [Interruptions] -- see any improvement in the law and order situation in this country?
Mr. Avoka 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, let
me state that it is not a ban, it is just a suspension.
Secondly, let me state that His Excellency the President did not indicate, for that matter, about the welfare or the security of the country, that you can go about recruiting and recruiting to ensure that people are safe in this country.
I had earlier indicated that if we have quality security personnel on the ground, if you are well motivated police/security personnel on the ground, if you take good care of them, one person can perform to the tune of as many as five persons. I have said so.
I have also indicated, Madam Speaker, that without prejudice to the current situation of suspension, where Assemblies -- and some of them have indicated their willingness and ability to provide office and residential accom-modation -- when
they do that there will be the need for us to increase the numbers and reach those areas.
We have an increase in the number of districts of late. We have to look at that area because we have to have police stations in the various districts in the country, et cetera. So we are looking at it holistically, we are not looking at the issue piecemeal. We are looking at the issue of beefing numbers. We are looking at the issue of providing accommodation, residential and office accommodation. We are looking at the issue of providing logistics and other equipment for them. They have to go hand in hand with each other. You cannot do one and leave the other.
So as a nation, yes, we are concerned about security but I do not think -- I beg to disagree that when you have a large number of policemen in the country then your security situation is taken care of or controlled. It is not a hard and fast rule. You can have large numbers of policemen and they do very little.
We have been strategizing. We realized that in the recent past, because of the type of men we had, the leadership role that they played was suspect and that is why we are now doing all other things to really ensure that no matter the number of people we put on road block or patrol and the rest of them, they are effective and they are delivering satisfactorily. We are doing that.
rose
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
We had about
twenty-five minutes for one Question time and we have five Questions. So Hon Member, one hour for the whole of Question time.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:20 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, that indeed is recognizable but when a Minister answers a Question and
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:20 a.m.


introduces new matters, they must be appropriately addressed. I agree that we will still have to operate within some set time. But when the Minister answers the Question and introduces matters that are substantive, they must be addressed, with respect, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Last question for
you before I move on.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:20 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, I noticed that the Hon Minister has endeavoured to retreat from the main Question that was asked.
Madam Speaker, let me also put it on record that in this House, when the Minister for Defence came here, he used the same terminology “suspension”. Eventually, he conceded that it amounted to ban and revocation -- [Inter-ruptions.] It is on record, it is in the Hansard.
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Honourable, put it
in a question, ask a question.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:20 a.m.
I will,
except to place on record, that the howling will not dissuade me from asking the question, the howling will not.
Madam Speaker, it is on record that the
Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, when he also came here used the terminology “suspension”. Even- tually, he conceded that it is revocation and ban.
This Hon Minister is saying that in his own mind “suspension” is not the same as “ban”, it should be on record.
Madam Speaker, but the Minister in
answering the Question, casts aspersions on the leadership of the Ghana Police Service, that the leadership was suspect. Madam Speaker, how does he explain it? He should explain “the suspect leadership” of the Ghana Police Service. Can we hear from the Hon Minister further elucidation on this?
Mr. Avoka 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, my
Colleague, the Hon Minority Leader did not hear me well. If he heard me, well he did not appreciate my answer. What I said is this, that in recent past because of the threat of armed robbery, we put a lot of personnel on the ground to do patrol day time, night time, et cetera. But the type of leadership we had given to them -- they were led by junior organs, as well became difficult for them to deliver on the ground.
So now, we have strategized and taken a decision that every patrol team will be led by a senior police officer, from Assistant Superintendent of Police (ASP) and above, so they can provide leadership and then co-ordination so that they can be effective on the ground. I was not talking of the police high command.
Madam Speaker 11:20 a.m.
The next Question
stands in the name of Hon William Ofori Boafo.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 11:20 a.m.
MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR 11:20 a.m.
Minister for the Interior (Mr. Cletus A. Avoka) 11:20 a.m.
Madam Speaker, Col. Kwadwo Damoah reported to the
CID Headquarters that his residence had been invaded by some men. The Inspector- General of Police consequently wrote to the Ghana Armed Forces High Command on 11th of March, 2009 to release some army personnel who were mentioned as suspects by the complainant to assist in the investigations. The Ghana Armed Forces Command, however, is yet to respond to the request.
Madam Speaker, let me explain this
development. The delay in the response has been occasioned by two main factors. First, the letter from the CID or the police to the military high command was wrongly routed. My investigation revealed that the letter should have gone to the Ministry of Defence and the Minister for Defence would have then known how to go about it and get them to answer or to report to the police. That has accounted for the delay. We all appreciate how meticulous the military are, the precision they require as far as routine or these things are concerned.
So that is the major factor. The letter was wrongly routed, so they had to pass a circumlocution. Certainly, Madam Speaker, that was the time that there were changes in the military high command where the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), Army Commander, et cetera had to be shifted or had to be changed and new personnel brought in and that brought about the -
Madam Speaker, I want to assure Hon Members that no one wants to condone injustice or misconduct in the society. Whether you are a civilian or a military officer or a policeman, if you infringe the laws of the country or you take some- body's rights for granted, you have to be brought to book.
Minister for the Interior (Mr. Cletus A. Avoka) 11:30 a.m.


So I have now been in contact with my colleague the Minister for Defence and he is doing everything possible to ensure that they do their own internal investi- gations and if need be, submit them to the police for further investigations. At the appropriate time, I will brief this House of the outcome.
Mr. Boafo 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, since the Question relates to identification and prosecution of persons involved, can the Hon Minister inform the House, the particulars of the persons who were involved?
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I do not have that information yet. It is under investigation. When the investigations are completed, we will know who were involved.
Mr. Boafo 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the complainant mentioned the names. It is not something which is being fished for by the investigators.
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, it is not a question of who were mentioned, it is a question of bringing an investigative report. At the moment, the complainant has mentioned suspects. The police for various reasons want to keep the names under control until they hear from the military high command.
Mr. Boafo 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, it is true the Minister has indicated that the Ministry of Defence is taking steps to expedite action. But it is four months now. May we know the exact steps which are being taken to expedite the prosecution?
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with the greatest respect, I am not the Minister for Defence. I cannot, therefore, know the steps he is taking.
Mr. C. S. Hodogbey 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I will like to know from the Hon
Minister, whether there is any limitation in investigating criminal activities.
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, as far as my knowledge of the criminal law is concerned, there is no statute or limitation as far as criminal matters are concerned in this country. So if it is one year, two years or five years, they will still be brought to book.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, will the Minister for the Interior inform this House whether this same time and the procedure of complaining to the Ghana Armed Forces Command would have extended to a civilian or it is a special case because it involves the military?
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
The microphones are not too clear, can you repeat your question? We did not hear it properly.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, it has taken four months for the police command to hear from the Ghana Armed Forces. I want to know from the Hon Minister whether it is a normal practice peculiar to the military. Would the same thing have been extended to the person if he were a civilian?
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, this is quite hypothetical, that if it was a civilian, it would have taken four months, is neither here nor there.
Secondly, I want to state here that every case must be treated on its own merit. I had indicated here before that the routing of the letter was faulty and that took time to be reconciled within the Ministry of Defence.
I have also indicated that around that time there was a change of the military high command and there was jostling and therefore, the letter could have been in limbo. These were the two factors that I indicated. It may not apply to a civilian
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.


person who might be a suspect.
rose
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
I was going to take two from each side but there is none here. So I will go here.
Maj. Derek Y. Oduro (retd): Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister mentioned that the first letter was sent on the 11th of March. I want to find out from him when the second letter was sent.
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I do not recall talking about a second letter being sent. I said that the Minister for Defence had undertaken to ensure that the right thing was done.
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
One last question. I will take a new face.
Mr. Joe Baidoe-Ansah 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, will the Hon Minister assure us that he will take keen interest in ensuring that this investigation is facilitated so that the culprits are brought to book as soon as possible?
Madam Speaker, I am saying this because the attitude of the military has always been like that. In the case of Molbila, it is getting to six years now. This whole issue has always been the attitude of the military, based on their own internal rules and their relationship with the police. That is how long it has taken Molbila; so I am asking whether the Minister will assure us that it will not take as long as the case of Molbila.
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I had earlier mentioned that I will endeavour to make sure that investigations were completed in this matter so that the truth would be known.
rose
Madam Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Is it a question, Hon Minority Leader? The last question on this issue.
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the Question to the Minister is this -
“To ask the Minister for the Interior what steps the Ministry had taken to identify and prosecute persons who attacked and invaded the residence of Col. Kwadwo Damoah. . .”
The Minister says the Ghana Armed Forces Command is yet to respond to the request. That is the request of identifying and prosecuting the persons. That is the Answer he himself has provided.
Madam Speaker, we want to know beyond the identification and prosecution which have already taken more than four months what other investigation is going on.
Mr. Avoka 11:30 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I do not know what the Minority Leader is driving at. The complainant is alleged to have mentioned some persons' names as those who had threatened or assaulted him. That is the complainant's position. The State is to investigate this allegation and come out as to whether those who were mentioned were actually involved or not, and I am saying that it is not the Minister for the Interior that is investigating. We are using the military in the first instance to identify them because their names are there but we do not know them and when they do it, they will refer them to the police for proper investi-gations.
Increasing Spate of Violence, Brutalities and Indiscriminate Arson
in Bawku Municipality and its
Environs (Measures)
Q. 13. Mr. William Ofori Boafo asked the Minister for the Interior what steps or measures the Ministry had taken or put in place to curtail or stem the increasing spate of violence, brutalities and indiscriminate arson in the Bawku Municipality and its environs.
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, to stem the increasing spate of violence, brutalities and indiscriminate arson in the Bawku Municipality and its environs, the following measures have been taken by the police and military administrations:
(a) Curfew has been imposed in the area to enable the security agencies to bring hostilities under control and also enable them to review their operational strategies aimed at bringing a lasting solution to the conflict.
(b) The military and the police are conducting a joint house-to- house search to retrieve arms and ammunition that are used in the conflict.
(c) The conflict area has been sectored into six (6) zones with each zone being manned by a senior police officer and thirty (30) other ranks.
(d) Plain clothes police personnel have been deployed in the municipality and its environs to gather intelligence.
(e) There are day and night joint police-military patrols with much emphasis on market days, because on market days a lot of people come into the township.
(f) Those who break the law are
arrested and expeditiously prosecuted to serve as a deterrent to those who would take the law into their own hands.
(g) 24-hour security duties are provided at all vital installations in the municipality, to ensure that services are still provided for the citizenry.
(h) An inter-ethnic peace committee has been commissioned to carry out public education and awareness creation of consequences of conflict. This committee is to dialogue between the factions on issues that can cause conflict and address them. This committee is also to give early warning signs of conflict to Government so that remedial action can be taken.

Madam Speaker, yes, no doubt about

that but it is an ongoing exercise. It is not a one-stop exercise; it is an ongoing exercise. Anytime we get a tip-off or need be, we conduct a search and it is quite useful to the security of the area.
Mr. Boafo 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, in his Answer to the Question, he has indicated to the House that those who break the law are arrested and expeditiously prosecuted. Is the Hon Minister aware that about 26 people were arrested two weeks ago and they are still in police cells in Navrongo and Bawku?
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, those
who were arrested were sent to court and remanded in Navrongo and Bawku; they are not in police cells as such. Besides
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.


that, they have to be screened. If you arrest as many as 46 people, it is not everybody you can arraign in court and proffer evidence, prosecute and convict. They are being screened. After screening, those who are culpable will be pro-secuted.
Mr. Boafo 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, may I
know from the Hon Minister what work had been done by the inter-ethnic peace committee which he has commissioned and to what extent the work which has been done by them has impacted on the peace building operation.
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
education is an ongoing process so that is why I indicated that this is a committee that has been put in place, particularly, to give Government early warning signs. Normally, when somebody commits a crime or is suspected to have committed a crime, we rely on them to produce him because some of the security people will not know the fellow.
So they have chalked a lot of successes. They have tried to educate; they go round from village to village, section to section of Bawku, educating the people on the dangers and the consequences of conflicts. They go round educating the people on the need for them to dialogue, on the need for them to avoid revenge, conflict and I think on the whole they have done some good work. They complement the work that the security services are doing on the ground and it is good that they continue.
Mr. C. S. Hodogbey 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
my question to the Hon Minister is -- According to his Answer, the police and the military are conducting surveys or whatever it is. In the use of vehicles and guns, the police are now using vehicles which are not able to stand the kind of vehicles which these criminals use. Also, the weapons used by the police now, the AK47 and SMGs are so big that when
the criminal sees those weapons coming -- people holding those weapons, they run away.
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, if I can
conjecture, I do not know. But the security are assessing the situation. If they realise at any point in time that the weapons and ammunition that the conflict people are using are above what they are using, they will advise us to be able to take account of that.
Mr. Kofi Frimpong 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
in one of the answers, he said that the search for arms in the Bawku Municipality has been very successful. May I know from him, so far, the quantity of arms that have been retrieved and where they are?
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with due
respect, as at now, I cannot indicate the number of weapons that have been seized.
But I want to add that even the psychological effect of the searches on the ground is dissuading people from taking arms in the area. The psychological effect alone of the house-to-house search, the community searches are scaring them from rearing their ugly heads.
Mr. A.W.G. Abayateye 11:40 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, I want to know from the Hon Minister how may military and police personnel are involved in bringing the hostilities under control.
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I cannot
be very precise but I can recall that a few weeks ago we had about 500 policemen on the ground and then about 80 soldiers as well.
Mr. Daramani-Sakande 11:40 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, can the Hon Minister confirm
Mr. Avoka 11:40 a.m.
Madam Speaker, with due
deference to the Hon Colleague, I want to state here and without any contradiction that no particular section or group or one ethnic group for that matter in Bawku has been targeted. The security personnel on the ground have been very, very neutral.
I want to also add that there has been no Executive interference in their work.
Dr. F. B. Dakura 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker,
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
What is your
question, Hon Member?
Dr. Dakura 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want

Madam Speaker, can the Hon Minister rise and tell me whether he can do everything possible to address the issue of poverty alongside?
Dr. A. A. Osei 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I
Dr. A. A. Osei 11:50 a.m.


rise on Standing Order 67 (1) (e);

“a Question shall not solicit the expression of an opinion or the solution . . . ”

Madam Speaker, he is asking the Hon Minister of his opinion. Our Standing Orders do not allow that.
Dr. Dakura 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I have
asked a question.
Thank you.
Ms. Beatrice B. Boateng 11:50 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, my question stems from an answer to the question which demanded the number of arms that had been retrieved, and the Hon Minister said he had no idea, he could not tell.
Madam Speaker, I want the Hon Minister to tell us how sure or how safe we are, if arms have been retrieved and kept, and he does not know the number. What happens if somebody goes to pick them and re-use them? I care to know.
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Can you - [Inter- ruptions.]
Mr. Avoka 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, let me
assure my Hon Colleague that her safety, like other Hon Colleagues, is guaranteed notwithstanding the fact that we do not know how many are in stock now.
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
We move on to the
Mr. Alfred Abayateye 11:50 a.m.
Madam
Speaker, the Hon Member is not in and he has directed me to seek your permission to ask the Question on his behalf.
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Yes?
Office Accommodation (New)
Q. 38. Mr. A. W. G. Abayateye (on
behalf of Mr. E. A. Armah) asked the Minister for the Interior when the police would move to the newly completed police office accommodation at Dom-Sampaman built by the community.
Mr. Avoka 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, the newly
completed police office accommodation at Dom-Sampaman has been inspected by the police high command and it was noted that it is at the remotest part of the suburb with unmotarable roads. It was further noted that there are no residential facilities there for the personnel. The police high command therefore, intends to discuss the issue of residential accommodation with the community and the District Assembly in order to post a few personnel there to maintain law and order.
Mr. Abayateye 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Hon Minister - This was an initiative taken by the community, so what effort is Government or the police administration making to help in the construction of the motorable road?
Madam Speaker 11:50 a.m.
The motorable
road?
Mr. Abayateye 11:50 a.m.
Yes, Madam Speaker,
the Answer says that “it is in the remotest part of the suburb with unmotorable roads . . .” Now the point is, this is an effort put in by the community; the community built the police station at their own cost. Now the access road is unmotorable. What efforts is the police administration or Government as a whole putting in to make the road motorable so that they can access it?
Mr. Avoka 11:50 a.m.
We commend the people
of the area for using their own initiatives
and resources to construct the police station for themselves. We commend them and we appeal to other communities to also do so. We are in contact with the Ministry of Roads and Highways to ensure that they construct a motorable road to the area. But I did also indicate the absence of suitable accommodation for the police personnel.
So we are taking them holistically, we would work on the road through the Minister for Roads and Highways and we would also work on the need to get accommodation for the officers. We are doing everything possible to make sure that that police station works.
Prof. (Emeritus) S. K. Amoako 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, I believe the Hon Minister has told us that this is a community initiative and one of the reasons why recruitment of police personnel has been put on hold is lack of accommodation. I want to know from the Hon Minister, what are the conditions for providing accommodation or other infrastructure to help the Ghana Police Service. What are the conditions to be met if the community decides to provide some accommodation or police station, or any such facility?
Is there a condition to be met? Because I know people are listening and they might want to help. What are the conditions to be met for a community to donate a building or any facility to help the Ghana Police Service?
Mr. Avoka 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, there are no conditions as such, except that if a community wants a model police station, the police administration has got some site plans and structures that they can use to develop and build their own police station in line with other model police stations or facilities.
They can do that. If the community wants to build on their own, they can be
guided by the police administration as to the key features of the office that they want to build. Because in building the office, we need the charge office, the district or station officer's office, police cells for both men and women, et cetera.
So there are no conditionalties as such, but I am saying that Central Government per se may not be able to provide the facility at the right time that we need and that if any community makes the effort, we will commend them and we will just go to their rescue.
Mr. A. K. Agbesi 11:50 a.m.
Madam Speaker, this is an issue concerning security. The community has taken its initiative but the police high command says that they intend to discuss the issue of accommodation with the community. When are they going to have this discussion with the community over the matter?
Mr. Avoka 11:50 a.m.
As soon as practicable. We are grateful to them, we commend them and we shall do so timeously.
Madam Speaker noon
We move on to the last Question in the name of Hon Robert Sarfo-Mensah, Member for Asunafo North.

Goaso Ghana National Fire Service Station (Fire Tender)

Q. 39. Mr. Robert Sarfo-Mensah asked the Minister for the Interior when a fire tender would be allocated to the Goaso Ghana National Fire Service Station.
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, the Goaso Ghana National Fire Station in the Brong Ahafo Region was allocated a fire tender with registration No. FS 244 in 1995. The vehicle has since broken down and it has not been possible to repair it because of lack of spare parts.
Government has recognized the need to equip and strengthen the capacity of the Ghana National Fire Service throughout the country. Consequently, efforts are being made to secure new fire tenders and definitely the fire station at Goaso will be taken care of when the facilities are procured.
Mr. Sarfo-Mensah noon
Madam Speaker, in the Hon Minister's Answer, he says:
“….efforts are being made to secure new fire tenders . . .”
Madam Speaker, would the Hon Minister tell this House what are some of these efforts and when these efforts would materialise?
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, firstly, Government has procured a facility through ECOWAS Bank for Investment and Development to order some 75 fire tenders from India. Hopefully, during the course of this year, these 75 fire tenders will arrive, and then hopefully, Goaso Ghana National Fire Service Station will benefit.
Secondly, Madam Speaker, we are also processing another facility from Exim and Commerce Bank (USA) to procure also 75 fire tenders including high rise ladders so that if there is any structure that is very tall or high, we would be able to fight fires on that.
Hopefully, when these also arrived, Goaso Ghana National Fire Service Station may be considered.
Madam Speaker, let me add a rider that in the past we used to distribute some of these fire tenders arbitrarily; now, we are doing an assessment of the needs of each area. There are low-risk areas and there are high-risk areas; there are vulnerable areas and there are less vulnerable areas. So when we get these fire tenders, we may

have to do the assessment and find out those areas that are of high-risk and supply them as compared to those of low-risk.
Mr. Sarfo-Mensah noon
Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister has just said that in the past the distribution was done arbitrarily. Would he explain to this House what he means by arbitrary distribution?
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, what I meant by “arbitrarily done” was the fact that it was not done according to any assessment or evaluation; it was done just because they are there and a district had to be supplied and they gave them out. But we have now taken account of the whole nation and we know for the past two or five years, which parts of the country have had rampant fire outbreaks. And that is why we are going to do those assessments so that we would know those that are vulnerable as compared to those that are not very vulnerable and then distribute them accordingly.
So we are doing assessment and evaluation, we are taking account of those areas where fire outbreaks are more frequent than the others. That is what I mean by the assessment as compared to hitherto where these considerations were not taken.
Mr. Sarfo-Mensah noon
Madam Speaker, is the Hon Minister implying that the Ghana National Fire Service did not have any strategic plan regarding where to site fire stations and went about siting stations arbitrarily?
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, my Hon Colleague got it all wrong. I did not talk about sitation of fire stations; I was talking about distribution of fire tenders and I am saying that Goaso will benefit.
Mr. Twumasi-Appiah noon
Madam Speaker, in the Hon Minister's Answer, he intimated that:
“Government has recognised the need to equip and strengthen the capacity of the Ghana National Fire Service . . .”
In order to avoid what I would call “pick and choose”, as to where and when fire tenders would be sent, would the Hon Minister tell us when -- and I know it is one of the policies there -- he will allocate fire tenders to all the district capitals as contained in their policy?
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, I indicated that there is now a procedure -- assessment of needs. We are going to take that into account and when the fire tenders arrive - and I said hopefully during the course of the year they will come. When they come, any district that falls within the high-risk area, will benefit before those that fall within the low-risk area.
Madam Speaker noon
Hon Member, last question.
Mrs. Catherine A. Afeku noon
Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Hon Minister what are the criteria in establishing a high-risk area since every part of Ghana is prone to fire outbreak. Would he please explain to this House the criteria?
Mr. Avoka noon
Madam Speaker, I did indicate earlier in my answers that areas which are very prone to fire outbreaks are high-risk areas. If we take the Accra Metropolis, if we take Makola and its surroundings, if we take Tema Metropolis, if we take Kumasi, Accra Metropolitan Assembly (AMA) and the urban areas, they are high-risk areas. If we take the central markets in these areas, they are high-risk areas as compared to the rural areas where the phenomenon of fire outbreak is not high.
We are talking about the phenomenon of fire outbreaks, the statistics of fire outbreaks in parts of the country, maybe, for the last five years. If we take account of those statistics, we would get to know those which are high-risk areas and those which are low-risk areas.
Madam Speaker noon
Thank you very much, Hon Minister, for coming to answer our Questions. Thank you.
Hon Members, we are now moving to item 6 - Commencement of Public Business and Laying of Papers. Laying of Papers -- Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, can you lay your Paper which is item 6 (i)?
PAPERS noon
Madam Speaker noon
Hon Members, item 7 -- Motion. Hon Members, this motion was moved and seconded on Friday, 3rd July, 2009. We shall now continue with the debate on this motion.
MOTIONS noon
  • [Continuation of Debate from 3rd July, 2009]
    • Mr. D. B. A. Nitiwul (NPP - Bimbila) noon
    Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the motion on the floor of the House ably moved by the my Chairman, Hon James Avedzi.
    Madam Speaker, I rise to also say that as a country, we need money to be able to move the system forward and to be able to move the country in the right direction. But Madam Speaker, there are a few observations that the committee made and I think I would want to concentrate on just a few of them.
    Madam Speaker, the loan that the
    country is sourcing from the International Development Association (IDA) has a conditionality that I believe the country would have to re-look at properly. Madam Speaker, the first thing is that, the country should have implemented a net hiring freeze excluding the absorption of trainees in education and health.
    Madam Speaker, what that simply means is that out of the 600,000 public sector workers in the country, approximately, if we would have to absorb about, for example, a thousand more this year, we should either have sacked a thousand people from the service or a thousand people should have retired
    before we can absorb any new person.
    But Madam Speaker, the thousands of youth who are out there, who did campaign vigorously with the NDC, thinking that they were going to get jobs, where on earth are they supposed to get jobs today?
    Madam Speaker, we have people
    currently doing their national service. Madam Speaker, where are they going to get jobs? The jobs can be got in two tranches - public sector, that is, by government; and the private sector. But Madam Speaker, today, interest rate is about 30/33 per cent.
    Madam Speaker noon
    Yes, Hon Member,
    let me take a point of order.
    Mr. E. A. K. Buah noon
    On a point of
    order. Madam Speaker, I respectfully have to interrupt because the Hon Member is misleading the House. The 600,000 employees is government's own ceiling that government has set for itself. That is, there has to be discipline in our economy and government has set a 600,000 ceiling; it is not a World Bank or IMF dictate. And so I want the Hon Member to make sure he is not misleading the House.
    Mr. Nitiwul noon
    Madam Speaker, either
    he was not hearing me or he chose to mislead himself. Madam Speaker, what I said was that we have approximately 600,000 public sector workers and if we have to add to this number, we should either have sacked people from the service, or people should have retired to create a loophole for others to come in.
    I have said this is not good for the country, more particularly, the fact that Government says that it is the government that initiated the project. Madam Speaker,
    that is not the campaign message that we sold to Ghanaians. We sold to Ghanaians that we needed jobs -- [Interruptions.] -- We sold to Ghanaians that we needed jobs - [Interruptions] --You, you, you sold to Ghanaians we needed jobs and today where are the jobs?
    Madam Speaker, where are the jobs? [Interruptions.] I said before - Madam Speaker, I said before -- [Some Hon Members: Teach them, give it to them.] - Madam Speaker, I said before that under this Government, I fear for my pocket. Today, the statement has come to -- I really fear for my pocket.
    Madam Speaker, we were told by the
    police that for lack of accommodation they were not going to recruit. But the truth is now bare that the military, the police and all the forces are not recruiting because of this conditionality -- [Hear! Hear!] Madam Speaker, there are people in Ghana today who are 25 years old. If you are not a professional, either a medical doctor or some sort of professional and you move beyond the age of 25, you cannot enter the Ghana Armed Forces or the Ghana Police Service, particularly, the Ghana Army.
    Now, if next year, or even the year after, when this conditionality may have gone down, those people would never have the opportunity to enter the Ghana Armed Forces again.
    Last year, Madam Speaker, when the recruitment exercise was being done, we had more than a hundred thousand Ghanaians seeking to enter the army. What will the fate of these people be?
    Madam Speaker, we have national
    service personnel sitting out here and some are working in Parliament. They will not be able - they cannot be absorbed in Parliament until somebody leaves or we sack somebody. Are we taking this loan to sack people or we are taking this loan
    because we want to develop Ghana?
    Madam Speaker, National Youth
    Madam Speaker noon
    Order! Order!
    Mr. Nitiwul noon
    That is the fact. They are
    going to sack the people who are supposed to be employed so that they can create avenue to employ other people. I think they should rather expand the system and stop sacking people.
    Madam Speaker, the second other
    Mr. A. W. G. Abayateye noon
    On a point
    of order. Madam Speaker, my Hon Friend made a statement that government is deciding to dismiss people from the National Youth Employ-ment Programme -- [Interruptions] - I want to tell him that it is a blatant lie. This is a blatant lie. I am on the committee which is seeing to the National Youth Employment Programme. Nowhere has that decision been taken to dismiss people. Avenues are being created to take on more. He is misleading the country and he needs to withdraw.
    Mr. Nitiwul noon
    None

    Mr. Frederick Opare-Ansah -- rose
    - noon
    Madam Speaker noon
    Order! Let us solve
    this business. Yes?
    Mr. Frederick Opare-Ansah noon
    Madam
    Madam Speaker noon
    Order! Order!
    Yes, Hon Member?
    Mr. Opare-Ansah noon
    Madam Speaker, I
    think my Hon Colleague opposite is totally out of order. His choice of language in describing the words of the Hon Member on the floor as being lies is unfair and unacceptable.
    Madam Speaker, indeed, last week, on the 2nd of July, 2009, if you refer to the Hansard, column 1250 -- I am quoting the Acting Minister for Youth and Sports, Hon Rashid Pelpuo. He said:

    So he said it right in this Chamber and that is precisely what the Hon Member is saying that they are going to end the contracts of these people. How then can the Hon Member say that the Hon Member on the floor is lying? I think he has to be made to withdraw the statement and apologise to the Hon Member on the floor.
    Madam Speaker noon
    Hon Opare-Ansah,
    a contract is not the same as sacking people, is it? [Uproar.] If one's contract ends, does it mean they have sacked the person?
    Mr. Opare-Ansah noon
    Madam Speaker, I
    believe that if you take a critical look at the National Youth Employment Programme, you would realize that the youth who have been employed under this Programme did not sign any contract with the Ministry. We take it, as the Hon Minister spoke here, that it was a nice way of diplomatically

    informing us that he is going to dismiss the members on the Programme and employ -- [Inter-ruptions] - because they do not have any contract with the Ministry.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Well, Hon Member, did he say they did not sign a contract? We are trying to unravel the words “sacking” and “finishing a contract”.
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I believe we are all Hon Members of Parliament. We have constituencies within which these programmes are. We do interact with members on this particular Programme. If you go to those who work in the sanitation area, Zoomlion employees, I do not think any of the members there has signed any contract with the Ministry. They do not have any contract with the Ministry in question.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, a point of order was raised by my Hon Colleague behind me (Mr. Alfred Abayateye) and I think that as a member of the Leadership, he would have allowed the Chair, your goodself to give a ruling before he made his comments, that is, if he was not happy.
    But indeed, the point that my Hon Colleague raised about the fact that people are not being sacked, as he puts it, and he himself, the Hon Minority Chief Whip, his contract in this House indeed, will end on 6th January, 2013, that does mean he would be sacked? No, he would not have been sacked.
    It is only that his contract would have ended. And he is saying that, the condition he was given was that the contract will be ended. He will have to go back for a review of the contract, come December 2012. So for the Hon Member to say that the contract would have ended and they will take a second look at it and make
    sure that people are well recruited into the system, I do not think -- It is neither here nor there.
    My Hon Colleague has raised a point of order and I thought that as a member of Leadership, the Hon Minority Chief Whip would allow Madam Speaker to rule first on the point of order raised before he made his unuseful intervention.
    Madam Speaker, I would urge you to just rule him out so that we can continue this debate.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    I could only have ruled if I knew what he was referring to. And the Hon Member said that in the Hansard there was some “end of contract”. So two Hon Members are either saying “sacking” or “end of contract”. That is what I wanted to find out. So until I am able to find out whether there was a contract of some form which will end then the word “sacking” is relevant, is that not it?
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, the word “sacking”, in this case, is not relevant.
    Madam Speaker, like I referred humbly
    to my Hon Colleague here, we all here as Hon Members of Parliament have a contract with the people of Ghana and our contract will therefore end on 6th January, 2013. So that does not necessarily mean that once our contract is ended we are being sacked.
    Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister made that comment. But the point he made was that they have signed a contract with the State to do a job and their contract was biannual. After the two years, the contract will be reviewed and if indeed, they are supposed to be retained, they will be retained. That does not amount to
    “sacking”.
    And my Hon Colleague's (Mr. Alfred
    Abayateye) point of order was that the Hon Colleague (Mr. D. B. A. Nitiwul) who was on his feet speaking said that this Government is sacking people. Those were the words he used - “sacking people and employing other people.” But indeed, those other people, are they not Ghanaians? They are also Ghanaians as well. [Interruption.] But we are not sacking anybody. The point is that the Hon Minister made it quite clear that the contract would be reviewed. Madam Speaker, there is nothing wrong with the revision of contract.
    Absolutely there is nothing wrong with the revision of contract. So if my Hon Colleague is afraid of reviewing the contract, it means there is something up their sleeves more than what we see on the paper -- [Uproar.] And they must come clear. If they are afraid of reviewing the contract, what it therefore means is that there is something up their sleeve than we on this side know rather than what they are telling us. So they should allow and accept the revision of the contract and let us move on. At the end of the day, it is the same Ghanaians who are going to be employed.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Well, I think I would like to look at the paragraph the Hon Minority Chief Whip read. Can you read it again? That is what you are relying on to support -
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I believe my objection to the Hon Member's - [Some Hon Members: Read! Read!] - My objection to the Hon Member for Sege was specifically with his choice of words.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Just read the paragraph.
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:20 p.m.
    I am just about to do that. I wanted to aid you by explaining the point that I raised.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    And we are trying to find out - he said “lies” and you said it could not be “lies” because from the Hansard there was some “sacking”. So I said, let us hear you read it.
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, my point is that the choice of the word “lies” is very unparliamentary and we all know that. He could say that the Hon Member was misleading. And it is becoming clear that indeed, there has been some termination here. This morning, in this Chamber, we have heard about seeking the difference between “recruitment” and “hiring” . We have discussed the difference between “suspension” and “banning”. [Interruptions.]
    I know that I have the mandate of the people of Suhum to be in this Chamber for four years. I have not signed any contract with anybody. So clearly, we are going into another arena of choice of words. So if the Hon Member on the floor was saying that the Hon Minister is going to end the employment of some people and my Hon Colleague feels it is not proper, that is no reason for him to call him a liar. And that is precisely my point.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    So, your point of order was on the word “lies”.
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:20 p.m.
    It was on the word “lies” and the Standing Orders are very clear on our choice of words.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Then let us hear from him. He said the word “lies” is unparlia-mentary.
    Mr. Abayateye 12:20 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “lies” and replace it
    Mr. Abayateye 12:20 p.m.


    with “He has misled the House”.
    Madam Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    I would like the Hon Member to carry on with the debate. Your Hon Colleague has withdrawn the word “lies” and said you have misled the House.
    Mr. Nitiwul 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, fair enough.
    I just want to cite a few examples. The Hon Member for Nkoranza North Constituency, my good friend is sitting on my right - letters have been received. The good women of Ghana who are toiling to feed our school children under the School Feeding Programme have been sacked. In Zabzugu/Tatale, they have received letters. They sacked them. In Techiman, they have sacked them. Madam Speaker, those people doing the cocoa spraying have been sacked. So what are we talking about? Madam Speaker, let me move away from there.
    Madam Speaker, the Government says it has agreed to take contingency fiscal measures, once the public wage increase for 2009 has been established to correct any deviations with respect to the fiscal deficit. et cetera, Madam Speaker, what it simply means is that, if there is a cumulative increase of about GH¢50 million, the Government will have to increase either taxes or cut somewhere within the Budget to limit itself within the 9.5 per cent budget deficit that it has set for itself.
    Madam Speaker, if we are to increase taxes, all we will simply do is to burden the good people of Ghana again with something that we promised them not to do. Supposed we did cut, all we will say is that we have given the people of Ghana a salary increase to the right and use our left to take it back. We give them no jobs to do, like what is happening currently.
    I remember, SFO came out to say that their budget has been slashed such that they cannot do any work, the same thing with CHRAJ and many more MDAs. Today, they are just sitting in their offices because they have nothing to do. It is not good for Ghana. There is no growth. And that is why the Government has slashed the growth rate from seven to 5.9 per cent. How on earth that in 2008, which was a very bad year globally, an economy grew by 7.0 per cent and today we are targeting 5.9 per cent? It is not good for Ghana. It is not good for us. Madam Speaker, let me continue.
    It also says that Government should
    have completed - that is by September - Government should have completed, through the Ministry of Energy, consultations with stakeholders on an electricity sector financial recovery plan and through its Cabinet approve the said plan. Madam Speaker, but what are the expected outcomes that the World Bank and the IMF are looking for from Ghana?
    That the operations accounts of ECG and VRA are improved and measured by the operations cost over the revenue account, excluding Government's assistance. [An Hon Member: Are you reading your notes?] - Madam Speaker, I am reading from the Report. So what that means is that if one removed Government's assistance, ECG and VRA should be able to stand alone and make profit by September.
    Madam Speaker, that is a recipe for disaster. What that simply means is that, we should brace ourselves for tariff increases. As I speak today, Government has put on some tariff increases. [Interruptions.] Madam Speaker, tariff increases are what we should brace ourselves for. I do not
    think that is what we campaigned on. That is not the impression we gave the people of Ghana.

    When I asked the Hon Minister, what he told me was that, well they could plug the loopholes. I asked, plug what loopholes? With the massive debt that ECG and VRA are in, and we are giving ourselves three months that we should make them profitable without tariff adjustments. That is not something that anybody can do.

    I suspect and I know that Government has already inserted salary adjustments and it is going to increase more in a very large proportion, which will put the good people of Ghana into more poverty. That is not something that we bargained for, that is not what the Government promised us. So I believe that the good people of Ghana should brace themselves for hardships from September. Why, Madam Speaker? From September, there would be pressure on the cedi because tradi-tionally, Ghana expects that in December -
    Mr. Avedzi 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, on
    a point of order I want to correct the impression that my Hon Friend is creating.
    Madam Speaker, he mentioned that one of the actions that the Government wants to take is to have a financial recovery plan for the ECG and he concluded by saying that that would result into an increase in tariffs. Madam Speaker, I think my Hon Friend knows what the plan is. He must wait for the plan to come before he comments on it.
    So I want to correct the impression that the financial recovery plan that is being meant for the ECG is not something that is going to automatically result in increased tariffs. So that correction should be made.
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Your time is up
    -- 12:30 p.m.
    Mr. Nitiwul 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, just
    to say that traditionally, there is always pressure on the cedi from September because many Ghanaians are looking to buy the dollar to go outside and bring goods for Christmas. So what would happen is that if we have utility prices going up -
    Dr. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, with respect, we are debating a very important loan for the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning. Madam Speaker, the Hon Minister is not even here, and he came and said it is a very urgent matter. This is why we are meeting today. Not even a deputy is here. Madam Speaker, this is unheard of. He came on an urgency and this Honourable House, we have been called back from our constituencies on a Monday, on a very important loan but we do not even have the Hon Minister here -
  • [HON MINISTER FOR FINANCE AND
    • ECONOMIC PLANNING 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    The Hon Minister
    is now here.
    Mr. Nitiwul 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker --
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Your time is up. A lot of people want to contribute -
    Mr. Nitiwul 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I am
    concluding.
    I was saying that traditionally there is pressure on the cedi from September because people would need to buy the dollar to import. Madam Speaker, we are
    Mr. Nitiwul 12:30 p.m.


    being told that from September school fees would increase, utility prices are increasing - [Interruptions.] Madam Speaker, and we are taking a loan for budget support, not for a specific project where the future generation who would be paying this loan in forty years' time would see physically.

    Madam Speaker, I hope this loan is not for the tea party - [Hear! Hear!] Madam Speaker, I hope that this loan would not be used for tea party, [Hear! Hear!] I hope this loan would not be used for pampers, [Hear! Hear!] I hope this loan would not be used for Chinchinga. [Hear! Hear!]

    Madam Speaker, thank you very much.
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    The next Hon Member to speak will be the Hon Member for Sene, Mr. Twumasi-Appiah.
    Mr. Felix Twumasi-Appiah (NDC - Sene) 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, the issue on this floor is very, very simple. Very, very simple, and Madam Speaker, let me address the minds of Hon Members to the motion at stake:
    “That this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Governance and Poverty Reduction Credit Agreement between . . .”
    - Madam Speaker, it is very simple. I wonder and I would be surprised if there is any single Member on the floor of this House who would disagree with us taking this credit and hence I wonder what this too much talk is about.
    Madam Speaker, I appreciate the comments that are being made by my Hon Colleagues and for me, it is an admission that they themselves, when they were there, much as they had more than enough, more than necessary of these funds, probably, might have learned their lessons as to how they might have misapplied,
    misused or did not go according to the tenets of the agreement.
    We here, would want to learn from their experience.
    Madam Speaker, I want to go to the nitty gritties as my Hon Colleagues here raised -
    Dr. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    On a point of order Madam Speaker, with respect, the Hon Colleague who just spoke is using terms that are unparliamentary. Talking about “mis- apply”. Madam Speaker, that is a very serious allegation that those of us on this side of the House object to. There is no fact that anybody has misapplied anything. For him to infer that, it is insulting to those of us from this side of the House. [Interruptions.] Madam Speaker, with respect, I object to that language and I think he needs to withdraw it.
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, objection has been taken to -
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, all I said was that there is absolutely no question about the fact that the people of the Republic of Ghana need this money and I would be extremely surprised if there is any Hon Member on the floor of this House who would want to object to this Credit Agreement. I intimated that Madam Speaker, unless of course, Hon Members on the opposite side of the House who needlessly are debating things that, for me, I think are irrelevant to do so, would want to tell us that they indeed have had the experience and they indeed had the opportunity for some of these provisions and probably, might have - I used the word “probably” -- might have misapplied it, misused it or did not use it for the purpose for which it was planned. We are prepared to take those pieces of advice in good faith.
    Madam Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Member, the objection that the Hon Member is taking is to the word “misapply”. In the circumstance, “misapply”, he says - Yes?
    Mr. Bagbin 12:30 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I was just telling my Hon Colleagues opposite, when the Hon Member for Bimbilla, Mr. Dominic Nitiwul was talking about misapplying money for Chinchinga, [Interruptions] - for tea, for others, they were shouting [Hear! Hear!] Now, he mentioned they misapplied money, they rise on a point of order. What double standard is this? We have to -- both sides of the House would have to be decorous and both sides of the House must speak on facts.

    Madam Speaker, my Hon Colleague is here; he is raising an issue about this misapplication. This House approved a loan for Ghana @50. Cars were imported; the cars arrived after the celebrations. The cars are still here; they are still looking for market for them. [Interruptions.] What evidence do you want?
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, with
    respect to the Hon Majority Leader, when my Hon Colleague was speaking, he had the opportunity to object if he so wished. Madam Speaker, when my Hon Colleague was speaking, my Hon Senior Colleague had the opportunity to object to any improper language, he did not object. He is speaking, I have the opportunity, I am objecting then he starts talking about Ghana @ 50.
    Madam Speaker, the Public Accounts Committee has not met on Ghana @ 50 yet. Why is he raising that now? He has a Presidential Commission, the report is not yet here. Why will the Hon Majority Leader bring a matter that is yet to come to the House right now? If he wants to object, he should so object but he cannot take away my right. I object to the use of that language “misapplication”. It is improper and I am taking that opportunity to ask that he withdraws that language.
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Members, is it
    only misapplying government money that the word “misapply” is objected to? That is because I can misapply my own money, is that not it?
    Dr. A. A. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    I hope Madam Speaker is not - [Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    No! No! I want to have an understanding then the ruling will affect both sides. We do not talk about misapplying -
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, if he has facts to that effect. Madam Speaker, he said that “if those of us on this side of the House had cause to misapply funds” and I saying that I object to that and that if he has facts he should bring them to the House, there is a proper way to do that, otherwise, he should withdraw. I object to the use of those words.
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, what I said was that, when those words were used, they had the opportunity if they so wished to object. And so if I am making use of my privileges as a Parliamentarian, I should not be denied that.
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Members, the word “misapply” standing on its own is difficult for me to say we should not use it here. But “misapply funds by a Govern- ment”, yes, unless you have evidence for saying that. If you say that “government has misapplied money” - and it will affect the whole House. So anybody who says there is “misapplication of government funds or loan”, if he cannot prove it, would have to withdraw it.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, the Hon Colleague opposite by his own statement said that I said “if”, he himself -- and the Hansard has captured it. I am saying that if that is what they did, we are prepared to learn from them but I want to promise them that Professor Atta Mills' Government would not do exactly what they did.
    Madam Speaker, what are we talking about? The fundamentals and the basis of this matter is that we are indeed in need of this credit and even today an Hon Member opposite - one of the Hon Members of the New Patriotic Party (NPP) has given credible evidence that the money meant for the people of this Republic, when we had approved of a deal between Ghana Government and Vodafone was in a way misapplied. That Hon Members opposite
    even took US$5,000 each by way of the misapplication. He is an Hon Member here.
    Madam Speaker, I just want to move on.
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Order! Let me come in, please. An objection has been taken, now let me rule on it.
    If the use of the word “misapply” was referring to a government misapplying loans or government money then it should not be used in the House by both sides unless there is some evidence. So if that was the implication even though you did not say it directly, they say use another word.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker. I will place emphasis on what I said that the coming of this money into this nation is a desirable thing and I want to believe and hope that every well meaning Ghanaian would want to support the coming of this money.
    I want to take the comments of my Hon Colleagues opposite into consideration and then say that if by some experience they believe that some money came during their tenure and did not satisfy the purpose for which it was brought, we are prepared to take those pieces of advice into consideration. But I want to also in addition promise them that this Government will not do what they are afraid of or what might have happened in the past and then to move on to say that a lot of issues have been raised -
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    In other words, he has withdrawn the word.
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, but unfortunately, he has made it worse. [Interruptions.] Madam Speaker, he stood here a moment ago and referred to US$ 5,000 that somebody on this side of the House is saying -- Madam Speaker, we ought to be careful in this House. Madam Speaker, that is even more objectionable than the earlier statement. What is this House coming to? Hon Members get up without any evidence and make serious allegations on this floor. No wonder people do not respect Members of Parliament. Madam Speaker, this is really even worse.
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, have I not ruled on the first objection that the word “misapply” should not be used unless there is evidence?
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, with respect I accepted that but in so doing, he went even deeper -
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    To say?
    Dr. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, he said, and I am sure every Hon Member heard him that somebody from this House is saying that Hon Members have taken US$ 5,000. Madam Speaker, that is even worse than the word “misapplication”. Madam Speaker, no wonder people do not respect this House.
    Madam Speaker, Hon Members of Parliament ought to treat this House with the seriousness that it deserves. Such language does not belong to this floor and I think you should rule that he should never use those words on this floor again. He should completely withdraw it so that it gets out of the Hansard. It is unconscionable and no Hon Member of this Parliament should accept that type of behaviour, it is unacceptable, Madam
    Mr. Opare-Ansah 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I thought my Hon Colleague when you directed that he withdraws the word “misapply” was going to make it simpler for all of us to proceed with this debate. But as Hon Dr. Akoto Osei indicated, he has made matters far worse. Now, he is alleging and indicating that he can prove that some Hon Members on this side of the House took US$ 5,000 in the Vodafone deal.
    Madam Speaker, I am coming under Standing Order 91 (b) that this is a matter of privilege leading to a matter of contempt of Parliament. If indeed, my Hon Colleague can name the Hon Member that he said is saying that Hon Members on this side of the House took US$ 5,000 in the Vodafone deal, let him name the Hon Member now so that the matter be referred to the Privileges Committee for investigation.
    Madam Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, can you tell us what you said again about the US$5,000? What did you say?
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I was saying that in view of the comments made by Hon P. C. Appiah- Ofori that Hon Members on their side of the House received US$ 5,000 each for voting for the Vodafone deal is a clear indication that in the past some moneys might have been misapplied. The Hon Members know, that if indeed what Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori is saying is not true, there are provisions provided by our Standing Orders to ensure that he provides evidence and not me. He does provide evidence, not me. I am only making reference to a speech or a statement he might have said and if indeed, the Hon Minority Chief
    Whip is aware, he knows the procedure - If indeed, Hon P.C. Appiah-Ofori is not telling the truth or has no evidence, it does not lie upon me as he -- he knows the procedure as to how to get him to bring evidence to either clarify himself or otherwise.
    Mr. Kwame Osei-Prempeh 12:40 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I believe that -- [Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Order! Order! Hon Member, sit down. Let me rule on this. [Interruption.] Let me rule on that objection. Another objection has been taken to the five thousand dollars. Let me rule on it. Yes, Hon Leader of the House. Hon Members, let us listen.
    Mr. Bagbin 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, under
    Standing Order 30 (g) and 31. I will read them and then urge you to refer this matter to the Privileges' Committee. 30 says:
    “The following acts or conduct shall constitute a breach of privilege or contempt of Parliament”.
    -- 30 (g) says
    “misconduct or corruption in the execution of official duties by Members or officers of Parliament”
    -- 31 says
    “In all cases of proceedings where complaint is made of a breach of privilege or contempt of Parliament, Mr. Speaker may direct that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privileges.”
    I was at a meeting and came to the floor
    late but I heard my Hon Colleagues on air and I was happy that my good friend the Hon Member for Atwima-Mponua (Hon I. K. Asiamah) even mentioned that he was going to raise the matter on the floor so that it will be referred to the Committee on Privileges.
    The matter of the allegation made by Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori on the issue that Hon Felix Twumasi-Appiah had just mentioned, and this is a matter I believe we must get to the bottom because it actually affects the dignity and reputation of Parliament as an institution and Members of Parliament as a whole and erodes the fabric of democracy in this country.
    I believe this is a serious matter that our Committee should deal with expeditiously and let the whole world know what actually happened. And I think if we are able to do that and we are able to convince the generality of the populace, definitely, we would be on a very good course. I suspected that if no action was taken with this matter, these exchanges will be erupting. It is good that it has come today when the matter was to be referred.
    I think that from the mood of Hon Members, they take this matter seriously. I think and I can read that they are in total agreement and I will urge Madam Speaker to refer the matter to the Privileges Committee for investigation.
    Mr. Ambrose P. Dery 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Speaker, without prejudice to the merits of whatever Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori might have said, and the need to refer that to the Privileges Committee, I want to state here that the context in which Hon Twumasi-Appiah made the statement in this Parliament is different. As far as what I have heard is concerned, Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori made an allegation about an occurrence in the past. He stands here and he points at us sitting on this side of
    the House and he makes a statement about corruption. The situations are different because I was not a member of the other Parliament.
    Without prejudice to the fact that today he is pointing at this side and I am here, so assuming, we were going to refer the two cases, Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori and his, if that is so, I totally agree with the Majority Leader and that we do not come here to sit down for people to take our reputations for granted.
    That must be done. The feeling on this side of the House is very bad; Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori had said something, yes, we were considering that and we were talking about jurisdictions or what have you, because we have Privileges Committee of this Parliament - as to whether it is going to be - how was it dealt with during the past, we have to deal with that? But what I am saying now is this, that he has made an allegation against this side [Inter-ruptions.] Yes, yes, and he either withdraws or he is referred. It is a clear case.
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Twumasi-
    Appiah, what the Member is saying is that -- [Interruptions.] Let me finish please. Let me finish -- you made an allegation here, that they had taken five thousand dollars and if you cannot prove it here and now, then withdraw it before we come to whatever the Hon Leader of the House also said because you said you heard.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Speaker, I get the impression that Hon Members on the other side of the House were not listening to what I said because they were talking about me using the word “misapplication” and what I said was here and then --
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    No, What I want to
    know is, they are complaining --
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    They are com- plaining that you said you had heard they had taken money and that if you cannot prove it here and now, say so. That has nothing to do with the request also by Hon Majority Leader that he has heard something which he wants to - if you do not, then we refer both but if you can withdraw yours, we will now deal with what the Hon Majority Leader said.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I am saying that their complaint is a misplaced one and it is neither here nor there. What I said, indeed, was the fact that they were challenging me on this issue about misapplication and I am saying that if what I heard from, Hon Appiah-Ofori had been anything to go by, or has any truth in it, then indeed, it stands to reason that in the past there were some misapplications.
    So if there is no proof in it, what are they afraid of? If there is no truth in what Hon Appiah-Ofori is saying, then what are they afraid of? Hon Akoto Osei made it amply clear and he used the word I used, I said “if”. “If what I heard from Hon Appiah-Ofori has any truth in it, or had anything to go by, then indeed”, then came my point of “misapplication”. Because you do not go for a deal for the State and then begin to share five thousand dollars each when it did not even appear under the conditions for the -
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Member, even if you had heard that, what money had they misapplied? If even you have heard the payment of five thousand dollars, what moneys have they misapplied?
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Speaker, I want to quote again. I want to quote exactly what the Hon P. C. Appiah- Ofori said this morning on air, that “. . . during the approval of the deal for Ghana Telecom passing over to Vodafone, the then Members on this side of the House where they were -”
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    That has nothing to
    do with misapplying government money.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Speaker, we were approving those --
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    What money was
    used to pay the five thousand dollars? Can you pinpoint the government money that was used? If you cannot, withdraw it. We will come to the matter which the Hon Leader of the House has drawn our attention to.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam
    Speaker, according to the originator of the story Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori, the money came from the Vodafone deal. And I am saying that if he is right, then those monies we approved here have been misapplied, according to him. And I am grateful that the Majority Leader has called for an investigation to be made on that particular issue. At the end of the investigation, we will know whether Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori is right, whether monies were misapplied or not. So I want to move on with the debate.
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Member, I
    will make a ruling. We have two matters before us now. I mean withdraw that statement and then we will go and deal with the request by the Hon Majority Leader. Because you pointed there and said they had taken monies which were government money and you cannot prove it, so you withdraw that one first. It is still an allegation, it has not been proved. Honourable, what you heard is an allegation.
    1. 00 p.m.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I am at a loss as to what exactly I am supposed to withdraw. I am saying that - [Interruption.]
    Some Minority Members - rose -
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Well, I have ruled
    that you must withdraw.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, with directive from the Chair, I withdraw that one. I withdraw. And I want to move on. [Interruptions] -- You were making noise so you would not hear. [Inter-ruption.]
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, you made an application, we have come. Do you want --
    Mr. Bagbin 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, I was
    actually urging that both allegations by Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori and my Colleague, Hon Felix Twumasi-Appiah be referred to the Privileges Committee. Madam Speaker, I, in doing this, did not draw your attention to Standing Orders 102 (1). I only mentioned Standing Orders 30 and 31.
    Madam Speaker, but I think 102 (1) is very, very germane to this. It is apt, and I think, I will read that. It is unfortunate, my Hon Colleagues have already left, but 102 (1) says:
    “Whenever in the opinion of the person presiding a statement made by a Member is prima facie defamatory of any person, the person presiding shall refer the matter for inquiry to the Committee
    of Privileges which shall report its findings to the House not later than thirty days of the matter being so referred.”
    So this one falls within the statement that has just been made by Hon Felix Twumasi-Appiah. And I was saying that both his statement and that of Hon P. C. Appiah-Ofori be referred to the Privileges Committee so that the Committee will investigate the matter and report to the House. Then we will be in a better position to debate the report and cleanse ourselves, if possible. If not, then, we will stand sanctioned according to the law. That is the call I made.
    Madam Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    That was why I said I was coming to -- [Interruption.]
    Mr. Bagbin 12:50 p.m.
    It is a matter of defamation,
    it is not a matter that one can easily just withdraw and that will be the end of it. In fact, we need to investigate this matter. And in fact, when we all heard it, and the discussions that took place, and calls were made, and there were emphasis placed on those allegations, we got very worried, and at the meeting that I attended this morning, I was questioned on it.
    I said, I had no such evidence, we heard at that time as a rumour. But we had no evidence to prove that. So if the Hon Member is saying that then, I was happy that Hon I. K. Asiamah had indicated on air that this morning he was going to urge the House to refer the matter to the Privileges Committee. So it was really timeous that the matter has cropped up, but it is unfortunate, that it has led to a
    Mr. Bagbin 12:50 p.m.


    walkout by our Hon Colleagues in the Minority. I hope that we will not have such an opportunity again.

    Madam Speaker, but in the circum- stances, we will have to continue with the debate until we close proceedings and then we can take a much desired adjournment. So the House will continue to Sit.
    Prof. A. M. Oquaye 12:50 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, in seeking your guidance so that the integrity of Parliament will also continue to be upheld, in order that the true traditions, the true principles of equity and good conscience would also continue to prevail, I think it is important for us to make certain clear distinctions.
    Madam Speaker, when a Member makes a statement that he or she cannot support by evidence at the appropriate time, it is fit and proper for Madam Speaker, to ask such a person to withdraw that statement. Madam Speaker this is entirely without prejudice to whatever other steps or actions may be taken in the particular context that that statement may be referring to.
    Madam Speaker, in other words, as the Majority Leader himself has said, many Hon Members of this side of the House were themselves mindful of raising this matter before this Honourable House. Madam Speaker, it means, therefore, that nobody would want to stop any; in fact, everybody would want to encourage the Committee of Privileges to go into this matter.
    But, it was I believe, well ruled upon by Madam Speaker, that there are two issues that a distinction can be made of. One, a statement that cannot be supported at this particular time, and for which
    matter, it must be withdrawn. And that, an allegation being made supposedly by an Hon Member of this House, outside the full parameters of this House, and which may also be taken up in the proper manner so that, that also be referred to the Committee of Privileges.
    Madam Speaker, if I heard my Hon Friend on the other side of the House well, he had actually started to withdraw, in fact, I did hear, and I am sure, the Hansard would have recorded that accordingly.
    If we had ended up with the withdrawal and then continued with the formal referrals to the Privileges Committee Madam Speaker, we would not be in the difficulty that we are now. So I respectfully say, Madam Speaker, that let the apology stand as I believe, I had heard and it is well recorded and also that the appropriate steps of appropriate referral also be made and I believe we would all have been in the winning situation.
    Mr. E. K. D. Adjaho 1:10 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, Standing Order 102 (1) deals with defamatory statements. And that if it is in the opinion of the person presiding that it is defamatory, then Standing Order 102 (1) which the Hon Majority Leader referred to then applies. If on the other hand, it is your opinion that it is not defamatory, then I will entirely agree with the submission being made by my Colleague, the Second Deputy Speaker. Therefore, the determination that you have to make is whether it is defamatory. If it is defamatory, then the apology will come after the investigation because if you go and read Standing Order 102 (2), it says that:
    “Where the Committee of Privileges reports to the House that the statement made by the Member
    is defamatory of any person, the Member who made the statement shall, within seven days after that report, render an apology at the bar of the House, the terms of which shall be approved by the Committee of Privileges and communicated to the person who has been defamed.”
    Madam Speaker, therefore, the most important decision that you have to make - ruling that you have to make is whether the statement that is being attributed to the Hon Member on the floor is defamatory. If it is defamatory, then the procedure that follows, then the proper provision that has to deal with the Standing Orders is Order 102.
    However, if it is not one of defamatory but one on making an allegation which has to be substantiated but has not been substantiated, then I will agree with the submission made by the Hon Second Deputy Speaker. So you have to determine whether it is defamatory or not defamatory.
    Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, the thing will be defamatory when it is not true and that is why I said since the Hon Member was just quoting that somebody had said and he cannot support it with the truth, he should withdraw it. I did not go to defamatory matter at all. So he should withdraw on that basis. But he has raised it anyway, like the Hon Leader said, he has alluded to what he had heard. And the Hon Majority Leader is saying that it is a matter which should be referred to the Privileges Committee.
    I agree with what both of you said and I will say that the Hon Second Deputy Speaker got my line. Unfortunately, having made the decision that he should withdraw, and him having withdrawn, the Opposition side still walked out. Anyway
    we cannot stop them but I thought I had made the decision that he should withdraw because he could not prove the truth of it here and now but they had walked out.
    However, let us now deal with an application by the Hon Leader of the House that the report had been made in the House, it affects Parliament and it is a matter which should be referred to the Privileges Committee. Under Standing Order 31, I do refer it to the Privileges Committee for investigation and report.
    Mr. Adjaho 1:10 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, as the Chairman of the Privileges Committee, I want to be clear. Is it both which are being referred or the first, the Hon Appiah-Ofori one which is being referred?
    Madam Speaker, I am forced to ask for your guidance because when you look at Order 102, the end result of an investigation is apology. So if it is taken that the Hon Member has already rendered an apology then -
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    He did not render, he withdrew. That is different from rendering an apology after an investi- gation, is it not it, Hon Member? There is a distinction between the two. When you withdraw a thing, it is not an apology, it is unparliamentary to say something which has not been proved.
    However, I see the point you are making. The matter has been raised here anyway by the Hon Member who says he has heard, whether he withdrew it or not, the point has been made; he has made the point that it has been said. And then the Hon Majority Leader also said he had heard it. So I am referring the whole matter to you. The fact is, it is alleged that some moneys had been taken and it demeans Parliament and breaches Parliament. So you are to investigate it.
    Hon Leader, we can now carry on, can
    rose
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, you have withdrawn it; yes and we finished with you and we have - unless you say you still have not finished your -
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 1:10 p.m.
    Madam Speaker --
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Then wind up. End up your debate on the motion.
    Mr. Twumasi-Appiah 1:10 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, like I was saying, we all agree, both my Colleagues opposite who are not here and us here that this amount of money indeed, is desirable for our economy. There are those who want to make reference to electricity tariffs and energy crisis and what have you. Madam Speaker, I want to say here that indeed, it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that receiving this money will not go anyway into bringing any untold hardship as has happened in the past.
    Madam Speaker, what did you see in the past? In the past when in 2001 petroleum prices were about - gasoline was about ¢6,000, it went to about 60 per cent increment with some of these things that we see.
    Subsequently, it went to about 100 percentage increment, that is from ¢6,000 to ¢10,000, from ¢10,000 to ¢20,000. Madam Speaker, as we sit here now, we know very well, anybody who is expressing fear that receiving this money like the Hon Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu said will go a long way to increasing electricity tariffs is neither here nor there because this money is coming in to
    cushion the Ghanaian economy. And like he rightly said, here it is Budget Support Credit that we are receiving from the International Development Agency that will not go any way in destroying our economy.
    Madam Speaker, they are talking about the fact that in September, the people of Ghana or some people will be going out there to import certain goods. Madam Speaker, one of the major commodities that is being imported into this nation as we saw from the State of the Nation Address in 2001 is rice.
    As we speak now, even when it was identified in 2009, what has been done to ensure that at least, rice cultivation in this nation is given the boost that it needs to ensure that we do no longer import rice in those quantities as we do now?
    Madam Speaker, we have the history of the Aveyime Rice Project before us and behind us; what happened to those projects? Madam Speaker, there are local rice projects. Madam Speaker, I had been so much interrupted.
    So Madam Speaker, I want to wind up by saying that I do not think and I would be extremely surprised if there is any Member on the floor of this House - I was going to youth employment and other issues but you said I should wind up -- who will disagree that this credit facility should come to Ghana. I would be extremely surprised and such a Member should be made public to his or her constituents to know that he or she does not mean well to the economy and to the people of Ghana.
    Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity and with these few words, I would end my statement here.
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Motion 7, should
    we go on debating it or should we close the debate now because I do not see anybody standing up wanting to contribute?
    Mr. Bagbin 1:10 p.m.
    Madam Speaker, we will - Motion No. -
    Madam Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Motion No. 7, we were debating when there was a walk-out.
    Mr. Bagbin 1:10 p.m.
    It is the Motion No. 7 that has been debated now and we will want to move to Motion No. 7 --
    Well, there are more Members expressing interest in having a bite on this motion number 7. Many more Members want to speak on motion number 7. So if we can give opportunity particularly to the Chairman of the Committee -- [interruption] - oh, sorry -- [Inter- ruption] - you have spoken; then the Chairman of the Committee on Energy. Then we can conclude the debate and then we do not take the vote and we will continue tomorrow on those issues.
    MR. FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER
    Mr. Moses Asaga (NDC - Nabdam) 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this all important debate on the loan Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the World Bank under an IDA support facility.
    Mr. Speaker, if you look at the facility, it is a three hundred million dollar facility and I think that Ghanaians should be happy that in times of credit crunch all over the world where now resources are limited from most financial institutions, the Government of Ghana through the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning have been able to secure a three hundred million dollar concessionary
    facility for us.
    Mr. Speaker, the interesting aspect of this is the fact that this loan is going on a zero interest and the payment period is over 40 years and the commitment fee is only 0.5 per cent.
    Madam Speaker, you will notice that the total loan apart from the three hundred million, is about five hundred and twenty five million dollars that is being granted to Ghana in tranches. It shows that the NDC Government under Professor Mills is doing the right things as far as the management of the economy is concerned. These days the World Bank has what we call selective lending to countries that are managing their economies very well, and not until you provide an economic plan that can be justified, an economic plan that would grow the economy, you would not be given this kind of loan facility.
    I t is therefore, a credit to the Government of Ghana that of all the Third World countries, and in particular Africa, Ghana was the first to secure a very large facility of five hundred and twenty-five million dollars for which a portion of three hundred million dollars will be used to support the Budget.
    Mr. Speaker, if you look at the policies that Government has put forward that have convinced the World Bank, it includes the fact that we want to reduce the budget deficit which stood at 14.9 per cent to almost 9 per cent. Also Government has given itself the task of reducing Government expenditure and also to make sure that increasing Government debt would be debt that would continue to meet our debt sustainability. As a result of that, Government will be going in for more concessionary loan facilities rather than non-concessionary.
    But on a case by case, we will go for concessionary borrowing when we are
    Mr. Moses Asaga (NDC - Nabdam) 1:30 p.m.
    to target those loans at projects that have very high rate of return and are very productive.
    Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that our Colleagues on the other side were finding faults with this good loan facility.
    Mr. Speaker, as a budget support, this would also come as a supplementary budget. We noticed that a lot of the Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs), when they came for the budget hearing, they were all saying the amount given to them would not be able to finance their projects.
    This is now a good opportunity with this three hundred million dollars, for Government to be able to improve upon the budget requirement of the MDAs. As a result, part of the loan will be used to target the Ministry for Water Resources, Works and Housing to provide potable water to our rural communities.
    The loan facility too would be used to improve sanitation in Ghana. Not only that, in education, it is the intention of Government to apply this loan to improve the infrastructure of senior high schools to meet the new Government policies and also increase the intake in senior high schools. Also part of this loan would be used to support the incentives that will be given to teachers who will be in the rural areas. Also, we want to provide not just quantitative education in increasing enrolment in schools but we also want to improve the quality of education in Ghana.
    Mr. Speaker, for all these, what else did our Colleagues on the other side want this loan facility to do? I believe that Ghanaians are very enthused that this loan is not going to be misapplied like it used to be in previous times, when loans collected
    and targeted at certain MDAs and they turn out that they did not go down to the beneficiaries.
    Mr. Speaker, one of our Colleagues on the other side was talking about the financial recovery plan for the energy sector and alluded to the fact that the only way that the financial recovery plan can be successful will be to increase tariffs in electricity, water, et cetera. I think he got it all wrong.
    The idea is that, if we get the loans, we are rather going to provide new equipment to some of the energy sector corporations like Electricity Company of Ghana, Volta River Authority (VRA) and GRIDCO to improve their efficiency. It is through the improvement of their efficiencies that they will be able to resolve the recovery plan for their present financial state which is nothing to write home about.
    But Mr. Speaker, if you look at the task that Ghana Government has set itself, you will see that this loan agreement would also be used in the energy sector and we are going to provide rural electrification to most of the rural areas. That is in buying low tension poles, in providing cables, and providing street lights to most of the towns in Ghana. So I find this loan to be a very useful loan contrary to other people's views.
    But I must also make a point that, for Ghana to be able to sustain its economic development, the first oil target of the last quarter of 2010 should be met, because expectation of Ghanaians is very high. The Minister for Finance and Economic Planning had always told Ghanaians that we will be able to manage the economy in a seemingly difficult times because of the funding that we need but he is assuring Ghanaians that by 2010, when there is complementary resources from the oil and gas, Government will be able to do a lot
    more for Ghanaians.
    But the only way this can happen is for Parliament to be able to pass the Ghana Petroleum Regulatory Authority Bill which is yet to come back to Parliament. I am therefore, appealing to the Ministry of Energy, that this is very urgent if we have to meet first oil in September, 2010.

    I also think that the oil and gas policy, the draft which was shown to Parliament, we need to deepen it and again, the Ministry of Energy must work very hard to make sure that we complete this document policy which would be the policy to guide our oil industry.

    Finally, Mr. Speaker, I think if the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning is talking about oil resources, to be able to use to support future budgets, I think oil revenue management will become very important.

    Therefore, if oil revenue management is important, we need to legislate an oil fund, we need to also legislate the future or generation fund and again, the Ministry of Energy and Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning should be seen working together.

    As we sit right now, the plan of development for the Jubilee Fields is ongoing. The question we need to ask is, how is the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning involved in this? What kind of information are they giving to the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning so that he would also be in a position to prepare his staff on petroleum taxation and other revenue measures that will make sure that the revenue to Ghana will be optimised?

    On this note, I urge all Hon Members to support this loan facility and to also let the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning make sure that the disbursement will not be delayed. Immediately we approve this loan facility, we should see them hitting the ground running with the World Bank to make sure that the disbursements are effected.
    Mr. Bagbin 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think having closed the debate on this item, I will want to move, that we do adjourn till tomorrow so that we can continue with the rest of the business tomorrow.
    Mr. First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I thought the under- standing was that we close the debate, which means that I put the Question. I do not know, I want to get the signal right because you are in charge of business of the House.
    Mr. Bagbin 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, in fact, I
    went too fast. I did not give you space to put the Question to close the debate. So close the debate before I move the motion.
    Mr. First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Very well.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Mr. A. S. K. Bagbin 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, that the House do adjourn till tomorrow in the forenoon when we shall reconvene to continue with business.
    Mr. J. T. Akologu 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I rise to second the motion for adjournment.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    ADJOURNMENT 1:30 p.m.