Debates of 19 Mar 2019

MR SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:18 a.m.

VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:18 a.m.

Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Hon Members, correction of Votes and Proceedings and the Official Report.
Votes and Proceedings of Friday, 15th March, 2019.
Page 1…17 --
rose
Mr Ablakwa 10:18 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on page 17, under the Appointments Committee, “… the following nomination…” should read “… the following nominations…” It should be plural.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Thank you very much, Hon Member.
Page 18…23 --
Mr Ablakwa 10:18 a.m.
Mr Speaker, same error on page 23, which is the second meeting of the Appointments Committee. “… nomination…” should read “… nominations...”
Thank you very much.
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Page 23…27 --
rose
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Iddrisu 10:18 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am about doing the computation but just to draw your attention to the Table. The distribution formula for GETFund 2019 on page 11. In the GETFund's original document as I have it, the percentages on page 6 does not tally with what I see captured here.
I have the GETFund official correspondence. So they should look at them and make sure that it is consistent with what they have. For instance, I have for tertiary education, 26.52 per cent; but on page 11, it is 26.40 per cent.
Then the last one is 1.94 per cent, which is now 2.05 per cent. We need to reconcile them so that we have the 100 per cent indeed.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
The Table Office should please reconcile the two documents accordingly.
Hon Members, the Votes and Proceedings of 15th March, 2019 as
corrected is hereby adopted as the true record of proceedings.
Official Report of 14th February,
2019.
Hon Members, any corrections?
rose
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Yes, Hon Ablakwa?
Mr Ablakwa 10:18 a.m.
Mr Speaker, a few corrections to take note of. In column 830, “… the Representation of the People (Amendment) Act, (Act 609)…” should be “… (Act 699)”, not “… (Act 609)…” as has been captured here.
In column 829, paragraph 4, “Hon” has been repeated for “Hon Minister for the Interior”. So if one could be deleted, please.
Mr Speaker, then in column 837, the last but one paragraph, the correct expression should be “… seem…” instead of “… seemed...”
Finally, in column 850, the first paragraph, “… with these few word…” should read: “… with these few words…” So it should be corrected accordingly.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Thank you very much, Hon Okudzeto Ablakwa.
Hon Members, the Official Report of 14th February, 2019 as corrected is hereby adopted as the true record of proceedings.
Mr Speaker 10:18 a.m.
Hon Members, item numbered 3, Statement by Hon Ato Panford, Hon Member for Shama and Vice Chairman for the Committee on Trade, Industry and Tourism, on Imported Substandard Electrical Cables and Gadgets.
Yes, Hon Member?
STATEMENTS 10:28 a.m.

Mr Ato Panford (NPP -- Shama) 10:28 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to make this Statement as a clarion call to this August House and the nation as a whole to highlight the challenges faced with this nation in respect of the importation of sub-standard electrical cables, gadgets and accessories .
Mr Speaker, the Ghana Standards Authority (GSA) has a core mandate to maintain the National Quality Infrastructure to ensure trade facilities and consumer protection.
The Authority derives its mandate from the Standards Act of 1973 (NRCD 173) as well as subsequent legislations including the Weights and Measures Act 1975 (NRCD 326); the Ghana Standards Certification Mark Rules 1970, L.I 662 as amended by L.I. 664; the Ghana Standards Authority (Food, Drugs and other Goods) General Labelling Rules, 1992, L.I. 1541; Prosecution
Mr Ato Panford (NPP -- Shama) 10:28 a.m.


of Offences under the Weights and Measures Act 1991, L.I. 1513; Custodians of Weights and Measures (Duties and Power) Regulation 1986, L.I 1325; and Weight and Measures (Permissible Errors) 1992, L.I. 1550.

The aims of GSA include the promotion of standardisation in industry and commerce as well as the promotion of standards in public and industrial welfare, health and safety (NRCD 197; Section 3).

The functions of the Authority include the preparation and promulgation of standards. The Authority is mandated by section 3 (2) (c) of the Standards Act of 1973 “to prohibit the sale or manufacture of goods in the national interest”.

Mr Speaker, in order to enforce its mandate, the GSA undertakes periodic market surveillance to identify and remove from circulation, substandard products. Mr Speaker, in November 2017, in response to the identification and detention of two (2) containers of cables at the Tema Port, the GSA carried out a nationwide sampling of electrical cables on the Ghanaian market.

GSA purchased 56 different types of cables (35 separate brands) for testing. Mr Speaker, surprisingly only (12.5 per cent) out of the 56 samples passed the test in relation to the critical parameters of the conductor resistance.

Two (2) of the seven (7) brands which passed the test were locally made cables. Subsequent tests

indicated that all the three brands of the locally manufactured cables passed all the crucial parameter tests.

Mr Speaker, in August 2018 the GSA undertook a wider exercise at selected markets in Accra and Kumasi. Products sampled included;

i. Electrical cables;

ii. Electrical accessories;

iii. Electrical gadgets;

iv. Electrical appliances (Switches, Sockets, LED Lights etc.);

v. Footwear, bags, dresses, vehicle spare part accessories (brake pads, bushing, lower arms); and

vi. Household appliances and accessories (flasks, blenders et cetera.).

The total number of footwears, bags et cetera sampled was 139 whilst the number of electrical products was 204 and 151 vehicle spare parts and accessories.

Over 90 per cent of the products failed the labelling requirements and majority also failed the tests for critical parameters, that is, parameters which have health and safety implications. A comprehensive report of these is available at GSA.

Following the above activity, the GSA acting in line with its mandate worked with the Ghana Police Service to confiscate products from one

company whose products con- sistently failed the critical parameters test. The products retrieved have all been tested and they all did not conform to the applicable national standards.

The Criminal Investigation Department (ClD) of the Ghana Police Service arrested two (2) individuals at the scene and they are helping the police in their investigations. The volume of goods retrieved from just one facility was so huge that it required the GSA to bring it to the attention of this August House.

Mr Speaker, if we do not support GSA in dealing with the problem of the huge presence of sub-standard products circulating on our market, we stand a huge risk of bearing the brunt of high fire outbreaks, deception of consumers by wrongfully labelled products and cheating of consumers into purchasing sub-standard goods.

Mr Speaker, I hereby humbly plead that this August House takes a critical look at this disturbing issue and further recommend the following;

i.That this House supports the GSA by reviewing its legal mandate and support it with appropriate legislation with deterrent fines and the power to destroy all failing goods, et cetera.

ii.That GSA humbly makes a request through Parliament to the Chief Justice to set up a

Special Court to fast-track the adjudication of such cases.

iii. That there is a review of GSA's 90 per cent decrease of the disbursement it receives for its inspection activities and frequent market surveillance to protect the consumer.

iv.That Parliament recommends to the Ministry of Finance to release funds due the GSA for its Inspectorate activities.

v.That funds from its Import Inspection Activities must not be capped to ensure that GSA can maintain the necessary personnel and equipment in order to provide Ghana with the much needed quality infrastructure for the protection of consumers and promotion of trade.

Mr Speaker, import specifications and standards in the Iron Rods and Steel for the building and construction industry are all failing in Critical Parameter Standards. I pray we support GSA to serve Ghana best by their legal mandate.
Mr Speaker 10:28 a.m.
Thank you very much, Hon Member.
Hon Members, we would take one contribution from each Side, according to what we agreed on.
rose
Mr Speaker 10:28 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member.
Mr Speaker 10:28 a.m.
Hon Member, all this would not help us with brevity. [Laughter.]
Hon Member, please let us go on. You should say, “I rise to contribute…”; then you go on.
Mr Sulemana 10:38 a.m.
The Statement, in my view, is appropriate and timely. The mandate of the Ghana Standards Authority (GSA)amongst others include ensuring that standards in this country, that labellings are done appropriately, and that measurements of goods produced in this country are done very well.
Mr Speaker, this mandate is very vague, very big and very huge, and so there is the need for government to give it the necessary support to be able to do this and do it well.
Mr Speaker, we are talking about the importation of sub-standard electrical gadgets and what have you, including even vehicle parts. You would agree with me that most domestic fire outbreaks could be attributed to sub-standard electrical gadgets.

Mr Speaker, in 2018, about 3,283 domestic fire outbreaks were recorded and this comes from the Ghana National Fire Service (GNFS). Again in 2017, 3,102 fire outbreaks were registered. We all know the harm that this causes in terms of loss of property and lives.

Mr Speaker, when we allow sub- standard vehicle parts to be imported into this country, it would increase vehicular accidents and we know the repercussions of accidents in this country.

This Government is trying to industrialise our economy which is very appropriate, but we cannot industrialise if we do not have standards. The One District One Factory (1D1F) initiative would need GSA to do the work well.

Mr Speaker, the challenge has been that we have very few personnel in this organisation. I am told that we have about 230 personnel at GSA and we are talking about 1D1F.

One would have thought that, at least, we would have one staff in each district so that he or she could help in the implementation of this laudable Government policy.

Mr Speaker, somewhere last year, the Government launched the Building Code -- a very important document. My view is that if we do not strengthen GSA, that beautiful document would remain on the shelves.

There is the need for us to empower them to enable them educate the general public so that the very reason for which that document was made would be realised.

Mr Speaker, Government has capped their revenues and that is also a source of worry to the organisation. The Hon Member who made the Statement made some requests which I fully associate myself with; and I would call on you and the House to take a serious look at them.

I believe that if we give GSA the needed support, they would be able to employ many hands to deliver on its mandate.

It is also important to know that in trying to industrialise this economy, we would have to ensure that when it comes to standardisation, we do not compromise on that. We allow so many Chinese products that do not meet standards to be imported into this country.

It means that our borders are porous and so there is the need once again to empower this organisation. If we give them money, they could employ so many people to be at those checkpoints so that sub-standard products are not allowed into our country.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you for the opportunity.
Mr Speaker 10:38 a.m.
Thank you very much, Hon Member, for your contribution.
Dr Bernard Okoe Boye (NPP -- Ledzokuku) 10:38 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am most grateful for the opportunity.
I would like to commend my Hon Colleague for this Statement on the need to ensure that we maintain the right standards when it comes to the products and services that are patronised by citizens of this country.
Mr Speaker, the then Ghana Standards Board (GSB) made a very strong case that their transformation into an Authority would enable them to efficiently carry out their mandate.
I am happy to mention that both Sides of the House collaborated to ensure that the appropriate legislation was crafted and passed in this House to enable them do their work as promised.
Mr Speaker, it is important to mention that three key ingredients are necessary to allow the Authority to do their work well. They are capacity or expertise of personnel at the Authority; having the right number of workers so that they could be everywhere; and the right legislative framework to allow them do their work.
I am happy to mention that the workers at GSA have the expertise, but the numbers is not too appropriate. I believe my Hon Colleague mentioned that we need to recruit some staff so that they can have the right ratios to carry out their mandate.
The vision of GSA is to become a model of excellence in standardisation in Africa. Its mission is to promote

standardisation for the improvement of the quality of goods and services and sound management practices in industries and public institutions.

This is a very loaded mandate which requires that we give them the necessary support and resources to carry it out.

Mr Speaker, when cables are not of the right standard, they can lead to fire outbreaks. What is even worrying has to do with products that are consumed by the human body or those products that come into direct contact with the human body.

I am happy to mention that there is now a lot of collaboration between GSA and the Food and Drugs Authority (FDA). In the past, there was some form of lacuna which allowed some products to come in and affect citizens negatively.

Mr Speaker, once we talk about standards, it is important also to remind citizens that when they want goods or services at very cheap prices, there is a tendency to compromise the quality but all of us must help the Authority to ensure that we do not support activities that involve cheap products; we must actually be in the position to pay for the right value.

To conclude, we have a role to play as leaders. We must make sure that all the necessary resources during the Budget hearing -- most of the time, when you talk to those at the Authority, they complain that sometimes, they have issues with the allocations that are made to them.
Minority Leader (Mr Haruna Iddrisu) 10:48 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the Statement. I join in commending the Hon Ato Panford for bringing up the matter of challenges of imported sub-standard electrical cables and gadgets to Ghana.
Mr Speaker, in commending him, I would like to disagree with him on the merit of some of the issues.
First of all, GSA's enabling legislation of 1973, (NRCD 173) is itself outdated and needs a complete overhaul and revision as a law to reposition GSA as a quality standards institution to support the country. As far back as 2013, I formerly submitted to Cabinet a request for the revision of the Act which was referred to the Cabinet sub-committee.
Mr Speaker, my second disagreement with him is -- With your permission, I would want to quote him:
“That Parliament recommends to the Ministry of Finance to release funds due to the Ghana Standards Authority for its inspectorate activities.”
Mr Speaker, this is not to disagree with him per se, but to share privileged information. GSA must be de- subvented. It is not one of the babies Government should continue feeding. I recall again, as Hon Minister for Trade and Industry, I wrote formally to the Hon Minister for Finance to wean off GSA between 2012 and
2013.
They are very capable of being on their own from the fees and charges that they make if they are allowed to retain part of it.
So GSA should not look up to the Ministry of Finance for additional financing; they can be on their own.

So GSA should not be looking up to the Ministry of Finance for additional financing. They could be on their own and they should be encouraged to be on their own in terms of their financing module.

Mr Speaker, again, between the period, 2009 and 2012, I enforced together with Customs and other institutions a ban on some of these electrical gadgets including fridges.

Unfortunately, there was a review of the decisions and some of those fridges were allowed onto the market against a particular legislation which was signed to say that, seize, confiscate and do not let them go back. There was a strong lobby which walked the corridors of the Ministry to allow for the releases.

Mr Speaker, so it is a very important institution. Globally, when you are measuring the ease and cost of doing business, the GSA is one such appropriate institution which could be used for such measurement.

Mr Speaker, my final comment is on phytosanitary conditions. And that is why I support the Hon Member's comment that they need adequate financing; but where they get it, I do not think it should be the Ministry of Finance. They should be de- subvented, then they could raise the money themselves to enable them function properly.

Mr Speaker, on phytosanitary condition today, Ghana cannot export to many European countries, including Turkey and Poland, just because we have not met the minimum phytosanitary conditions.

The expectation is that the GSA would set those quality standards together with the Standards Authorities of the other countries. So if we are dealing with the Standards Authority of Turkey, we must align with them to agree on what could be sent in and what could be sent out.

Mr Speaker, it is even affecting our export base as a country. For instance, if we take mango, pineapple, banana and many of the horticultural crops that could be exported, we are denied market access because of our inability to satisfy the phytosanitary condition, which is part of the mandate of the GSA.
Mr Speaker 10:48 a.m.
Hon First Deputy Speaker?
Mr Joseph Osei-Owusu (NPP -- Bekwai) 10:48 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for the opportunity to comment briefly on the Statement. I would like to commend the Hon Member who made the Statement for bringing his learning onto the Floor of the House.
Mr Speaker, the Statement reflects two things; one, it reflects the character of us now in this country. We take advantage of every opportunity to cheat, make money irrespective of the consequences to others. Those bringing in the substandard goods know the goods are substandard.
They actually go and demand or procure products whose standards they know are low. And then they are willing and ready to compromise every and any official so that they could sell it at premium price. That is the worst part; they would sell the low quality at premium price to unsuspecting Ghanaians.
Mr Speaker, but their business is also thriving, because on many occasions, the work men that Ghanaians use have refused to be certified and they would charge their employer premium price and go and buy substandard materials for the unsuspecting customer. That is the kind of character we are showing in all our dealings in our country.
Mr Speaker, if we read the Statement carefully, it talks about cables coming in, and then, getting to the end, it recommends that the resources the appalled representatives get should not be capped. That shows that they have people at the various entry points.
How did it happen that those people did not detect the substandard products? They allowed them in and they go back after them in the market. The whole essence of putting them there is to ensure that substandard products do not enter the market.
Yet, 90 per cent plus of the products on the market are substandard. They pass through these officials we have put there; these officials they say we should resource the more.
I wonder why we should even put them there. If 90 per cent of the products on the market pass through where they are and yet, they are substandard, I wonder why we should keep them there let alone resource them.
Mr Speaker, I am emphasising that the challenge is to do with the character that is pervasive in our country now. We are dishonest; we should admit that and work on it.
If we do not start working on our integrity as a people, whether it is the classroom teacher, whether it is the mechanic, whether it is the official at the port, the results and the value would be the same.
Mr Speaker, but there is a silver lining in the clouds. In the first paragraph of page two of the Statement, it says, “two (2) of the seven (7) brands which passed the test were locally made cables”.
That for me is what we should focus on. That means at least two of the cable manufacturers in Ghana are doing good work. We should identify those groups and spend money to support them and help them to market those quality products.
They are good; they are better than those that are coming from outside and we would be safe if we use them.
Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.
Mr Speaker 10:48 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr First Deputy Speaker.
Hon Members. We all agree that this is a very important Statement. I would like the Hon Minority Leader to stay a while.
In view of the fact that the Hon Minority Leader had done some work on this matter before, and I believe that with our decision to help with legislation, the time has come when now we should unearth all these documents and then, with the help of our newly established Legal Department, start to work on this because it is a matter of very grave importance.
Houses are being burnt for nothing because of compromised cables. And we all know that there are a lot of things that are happening which are not just good enough.
What recommendations shall we as a Parliament make so as to improve upon the system? For that matter the relevant Committee together with the Hon Leaders should look seriously into this.
And I would ask that the moment we finish Sitting, copies of today's proceedings should be made available to the Legal Department and we all examine this matter further so that some action would be taken with regard to these low quality works.
This, for example, relates to what I know in India. They have a Construction Industry Development Council. There is no Council which
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
regulates the electricians as such and so on and so forth. These are some of the best practices we could also learn from by legislation. And then, definitely, it would do us a lot of good.

In the process, we should also contact the Ghana Standards Authority as to some of the difficulties they are faced with and then we would all help to tighten the laws and regulations in the best interest of our country.

One thing is certain; we produce first-class quality cables in this country. I got to know this as Minister for Energy and for a long time we disallowed Government corporations from importing foreign cables, which worked a lot of good for our country.

These are things which must be revisited by the appropriate Committee on Trade and Industry as well as our own leaders who are inclined towards assisting in this matter, particularly, the Hon Minority Leader who has made a contribution in that direction in the House this morning.

Thank you very much and this would end Statements time for now. We have a lot of business on our hands. We would move straight to the Commencement of Public Business.

Item numbered 4, Presentation of Papers? Item numbered 4(a), Minister for Communications?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister for Communications is indisposed, so she is unavailable. I crave your indulgence to lay the document on her behalf.
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Hon Majority Leader, you may proceed.
PAPERS 10:58 a.m.

Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Item numbered 4(b), by the Minister for Health. And in his absence --
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, again, respectfully, may I present the Paper on behalf of the Hon Minister for Health?
Minister for Parliamentary Affairs (Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah 10:58 a.m.
None

Protocol to Eliminate Illicit Trade in Tobacco Products.

Referred to the Committee on Health.
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Item numbered 4(c)?
By the Chairman of the Committee --
Report of the Committee on Subsidiary Legislation on the Aircraft Accident and Serious Incident Regulations, 2019 (L.
I. 2375).
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Item numbered 4(d), Chairman of the Committee on Finance.
By the Chairman of the Committee --
Report of the Finance Committee on the Loan Facility Agreement amongst the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ING Bank (a branch of ING-DIBA AG Deutsche Bank AG) Hong Kong Branch (as Original Lenders, Arrangers and Coordinators), ING Bank N.V. (as Agent), and ING Bank N.V., Beijing Branch (as ECA Agent) for an amount of one hundred and twenty-three million, seven hundred and fifty- six thousand, seven hundred and seventy-four euros and fifteen cents (€123,756,774.15) to finance the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Item numbered 4(e)(i) and 4(e)(ii).
By the Chairman of the Committee --
(i) Report of the Committee on Education on the Contract Agreement between the
Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for an amount of one hundred and seventeen million, eighty-eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
(ii) Report of the Committee on Education on the Amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta),and SUMEC Com- plete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on the last document in respect of item numbered 4(e)(ii), which has just been laid, there is a Report of the Committee on Education on the amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana, represented by the Ministry of Education, and P. C. Education
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Item numbered 5, Motion.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, item numbered 5 cannot be taken now. We would stand it down and finish with it tomorrow. I have had some discussions with the Minister for Information. We will deal with it tomorrow. There are some limitations we need to consider. We would certainly take it tomorrow.
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
Very well. Could we go on to item numbered 6?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we just laid the Report in item numbered 4(d). So, until Hon Members have assessed the Report, we cannot deal with Motions numbered 6 and 7 in addition to the Resolution.
I would plead then, that we consider item numbered 15, the Payment Systems and Services Bill. I guess we would be able to complete it today.
Mr Speaker 10:58 a.m.
None of those preceding are ready except item numbered 15?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:58 a.m.
Mr Speaker, they all relate to what we just did in items numbered 4(d) and 4(e) and those Reports would have to be availed to Hon Members before we would be able to deal with the subsequent Motions and Resolutions.
Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
Hon Members, item listed 15 -- Payment Systems and Services Bil1, 2018 at the Consideration Stage.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 11:08 a.m.

STAGE 11:08 a.m.

  • [Continuation of debate from 15/03/19]
  • Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, clause 99?
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, last Friday, we got to clause 99 and the Hon Second Deputy Speaker who was in the Chair directed the Table Office to recapture clause 99 in the Bill together with the proposed amendment on the Order Paper. So the new rendition in the Order Paper is what I seek to move.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 99 -- subclause (2), redraft as follows 11:08 a.m.
    “(2) The Bank of Ghana may issue guidelines
    (a) for the procedure for the submission of returns on the operations of payment service providers, elec- tronic money issuers and agents;
    (b) for the operations of a clearing house and other retail payment products or channels;
    (c) for the operations of large value transfer systems;
    (d) for standards on information communication technology security, payment systems equipment and instruments;
    (e) for the procedure for accreditation of printers of payment instruments;
    (f) for consumer protection;
    (g) for cyber security;
    (h) for participation in the clearing system;
    (i) for electronic financial services; and
    (j) generally for the effective implementation of this Act”.
    Mr Avedzi 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it does not look like it is just a matter of redrafting. -- Probably, there are new things that might have been added to it, so if the Hon Chairman of the Committee could explain, it would help us.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the Hon Deputy Minority Leader would refer to page 16 of Friday's Votes and Proceedings, he would find out that there is;
    “Question proposed: Debate arising
    Debate deferred''
    Mr Speaker, the whole idea was for the Table Office to redraft. That is why under subclause (2) of clause 99 on page 9 of today's Order Paper, there is “redraft as follows''.
    We debated the entire subclause extensively and the Table Office was to redraft, which is on pages 9 and 10 of today's Order Paper. Subclauses (h), (i) and (j) were the new additions to the original subclause in the Bill. All of the subclauses were redrafted in order to make them tidy.
    Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
    The additions were subclauses (h), (i) and (j) to make it
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 100 -- interpretation of “agency agreement” delete and insert the following:
    “agency agreement'' means the contractual arrangement between
    “(a) a principal and an agent,
    (i) a master-agent and an agent,
    (j) a principal and a master- agent for providing banking or electronic money, payment services to end-users on behalf of the principal”.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 100 -- interpretation of “Bank of Ghana” delete.
    Mr Speaker, there is only one Bank of Ghana and there is no ambiguity in what it is, so we need not define it.
    Mr Avedzi 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the definition provided in the Bill, it says that, and with your permission, I beg to quote:
    “ ‘Bank of Ghana' means the Central Bank of Ghana established under article 183 of the Constitution''.
    This is perfectly in consonance with what the Constitution says, so if we put it in the Bill or the Act, it does not change anything. The “Bank of Ghana'' was used in the Bill so it must be defined and the definition must agree with what the Constitution provides. Why does he want to delete it? It should be maintained once it agrees with the definition of the Constitution.
    Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, or we should interpret “Bank of Ghana''? [Laughter.]
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we are not careful and any Ministry, Department or Agency is introduced in the Bill, then we would be defining same in the Bill. The “Bank of Ghana'' is the Bank of Ghana -- it is the Central Bank of Ghana.
    If it were in the case that we said, “the bank'', then at the interpretation section it would be, “the bank'' and that would mean the Bank of Ghana''. But what is used in the Bill is the “Bank of Ghana'' and “the Bank of Ghana'' is the Bank of Ghana.
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is only one Central Bank, but he cannot tell me that there is only one “Bank of Ghana''. There

    Mr Speaker, I am referring to the Hon Chairman of the Committee -- but I am addressing the Chair. Nobody knows; there may be many banks, but there is only one Central Bank.
    Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
    There is one Bank of Ghana Act.
    Mr A. Ibrahim 11:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, precisely. That is why the law says so and that is why it would be good for us to maintain it as “The Bank of Ghana'' as defined by the Act.
    Mr Speaker 11:08 a.m.
    Which establishes a one and only Bank of Ghana?
    Mr A. Ibrahim 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, because the Constitution has already defined the ‘'Bank of Ghana'' as the Central Bank of Ghana, as the law stipulates, so it would be appropriate for us to maintain it in order to avert future confusion.
    It is not referring to the Central Bank but it is talking about the aspect of the Bank of Ghana. So while the Constitution has defined what the Bank of Ghana is and the Bill is also copying from what the Constitution says, I do not see anything wrong if we maintain it in the Bill. To avert future confusion, I think we must allow it to stand as it is.
    Mr Kwabena Ohemeng- Tinyase 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the field of economics and finance, the Central Bank is alluded to by “the country.” Therefore, it is either the Central Bank of the country or the bank of the country.
    Mr Speaker, when we talk about Bank of Ghana, we are referring to the Central Bank. Bank of England is the Central Bank of the United Kingdom (UK); Bank of Nigeria is the Central Bank of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. So we only have one single bank of a country which stands as the Central Bank of that country.
    Dr Kwaku Afriyie 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am inclined to support the Hon Deputy Minority Leader's position.
    First of all, maintaining it in the interpretation section does not detract from its validity as he cited in the Constitution.
    Secondly, I do not get the Chairman's logic. He says that if we accept the Hon Deputy Minority Leader's position on this issue, it means we would have to define every entity. Logically, it does follow from that. So I propose that we maintain the interpretation and take the position as maintained by the Hon Deputy Minority Leader.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Hon Members, I will put the Question.
    The proposal is that the interpretation of the Bank of Ghana as proposed should not stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Yes, Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Committee, via the Hon Chairman, is making a proposal to us. So the Question should rather be that it should stand part -- and it will be defeated if he does not withdraw.
    Mr Speaker, given the circumstance, I believe he may want to withdraw his own amendment. But the Question should be that “as amended by the Chairman should stand part of the Bill”. If he does not withdraw that Question then it would be defeated by the House.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Hon Members, the proposal is that the interpretation of Bank of Ghana should be deleted.
    Yes, Hon Chairman?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, amendment deemed withdrawn. [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, the proposed amendment is withdrawn.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the proposed amendment is deemed withdrawn.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Very well.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the Hon Chairman is withdrawing the amendment, he should say so unequivocally. [Laughter.] He cannot say that the amendment is “deemed withdrawn”.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Yes, Hon Chairman?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, I withdraw the amendment. [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Very well.
    The amendment is duly withdrawn.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Hon Members, a further proposed amendment - clause 100 (iv)?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, Clause 100 -- interpretation of “biometrics” delete and insert the following:
    “‘biometrics' means an art of identifying an individual based on some physical traits of that individual”.
    Mr Speaker, in the Bill, “biometrics” was defined as an art of identifying an individual based on the individual's physical behavioural traits namely; finger prints, finger vein, voice or palm vein pattern or iris recognition. That list is not exhaustive as there are other ways of identifying an individual's biometrics. So there is no need to restrict --
    Mr Speaker, in future, there could be other forms of identifying an individual based on some new biometric. So we would rather leave it as it is on the Order Paper as “ ‘biometric' means an art of identifying an individual based on some physical traits of that individual”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, just to propose to the Hon Chairman that it is based on “ ‘physical traits of that individual and not “on some physical traits”. So I propose a further amendment that delete the word “some” so it would read; biometric means an art --
    Mr Speaker, it cannot even be an art; it is the art or the science, if you like, of identifying an individual based on physical traits of that individual. This is even scientific and so it is not an art.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    “Some physical traits” -- so we should drop “some” and say ‘physical traits'.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is not an art; it is the science of identifying an individual based on physical traits or physical characteristics of that individual.
    Biometrics, certainly, is not behavioural; it is physical identification and that is scientific.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Hon Members, “based on physical traits” --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, to go over what I said, “ ‘biometric' means that art of identifying an individual based on physical traits of that individual”. This is to maintain what they have there.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    “Physical traits of that individual”.
    Can there possibly be a time when there could be some other peculiarities
    that, maybe, may not be physical with the development of science?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, “biometrics” is a technical term; it is neither an art nor a science -- it is just a technical term.
    Secondly, if we say “based on physical traits”, then it would be a number of physical traits together. But we introduced the word “some” because we could only be looking at finger vein, the iris -- and so we have to maintain the word “some”, so that we are not looking at a set of physical traits together and that is the reason for putting “some” there.
    It is because at any point in time, we are looking at some physical traits and not all physical traits or a set of physical traits.
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    So you would find out that almost invariably, we have talked about thumbprint or something. There is always an identification of what physical trait you would want. So we would tend to agree with the Chairman that there is some need for the word “some” in that connection.
    But is that your point of view?
    rose
    Mr Speaker 11:18 a.m.
    Apparently, the Hon Majority Leader does not agree.
    Yes, Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, if a person is taking food and he is asked what

    What is eating?

    Mr Speaker, that qualification is absolutely unnecessary. The use of the word “some” is absolutely unnecessary.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, earlier you agreed with me -- [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, it is an opinion.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:28 a.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, but when we defined “biometrics” in the Bill, we listed a number of traits; fingerprints, finger vein, voice, palm vein pattern or iris recognition.
    We then said this list cannot be exhaustive and that, going into the future, there could be some new form of biometric identification.
    So we took off all of those and said, biometric would mean, identifying an individual based on some physical traits, so that we do not have to list all of the possible physical traits.
    But if we say that it is based on physical traits, then how many of them? All or a set of physical traits? Which particular physical traits? -- So it is “some physical traits”.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    Hon Members, in fact, “unique” can easily replace “some”. It brings clarity because the essence of every such trait is its uniqueness, otherwise, it is of no relevance.
    So it could easily replace it and make it perhaps more scientific.
    Dr Boye 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, let me add my voice. Traits, like my Hon Senior Colleague mentioned, can be physical and also behavioural, as in the pattern of the behaviour of someone. The way one behaves or talks could be a trait which is unique to him. In that case, “physical characteristics” is better.
    Mr Speaker, if we say, “some physical traits” we use, “some” most of the time because when biometrics evolved, we had just a few items of it like the fingerprints. With time, we had the iris.
    Honestly, every part of one's body could be used for identifying him/her in particular. If they pick his/her sweat, Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) analysis could show, for instance, that this is Dr Assibey-Yeboah. [Interruption] --
    Mr Speaker, so it is safe to say, “based on unique physical characteristics”.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    Hon Member, does such a characteristic have to be unique to be meaningful?
    Dr Boye 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree. It ought to be unique.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    In other words, in all such applications, “unique” must flourish, otherwise, it is of no relevance.
    Dr Boye 11:28 a.m.
    Yes, “unique” must flourish.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    So it is right for us to put in “unique”.
    Dr Boye 11:28 a.m.
    I agree that it should be, “unique characteristics”, but let me add that for the information of the House, every part of our body -- If a strand of hair is picked, DNA could show that this is the Rt Hon Professor Mike Oquaye. So let us stick with, “unique physical characteristics” and leave out, “some”.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    “Unique traits -- Yes, Hon Dr Kwaku Afriyie?
    Dr Kwaku Afriyie 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe that what stands now is perfect. The uniqueness is a derivative. Once we use, “identifying” it means we are looking for a uniqueness, so we do not need to put “unique” in there again.
    Then of course, some of the physical traits is absolutely spot on. Because, like Dr Okoe Boye said, there are so many characteristics that we could use to identify an individual. Indeed, I used, “derivative” because there are certain aspects that we can -- Even voice recognition is derivative. As I speak, I have a pattern which might be peculiar to me.
    Mr Speaker, I believe that the sentence and the phraseology, as it stands now, is excellent and could be maintained.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    So Hon Members, once you have “unique” - The essence is that it must be unique. If it is not unique to the person, it is irrelevant.
    Dr Kwaku Afriyie 11:28 a.m.
    Rightly so, Mr Speaker, but if we take the sentence, “ ‘biometrics' means an art
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the outgoing Western Regional Minister -- [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    Hon Member, if you go on talking like that, you would not climb to his height. [Laughter.]
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:28 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, sorry, the Hon Member for Sefwi- Wiawso says we do not need “unique” in here. Once we are identifying an individual, that is sufficient. Again, we cannot use “physical traits” because there are so many of them. So let us leave “some” as captured on the Order Paper. I agree with the Hon Member that it is perfect.
    Mr Speaker 11:28 a.m.
    I would put the Question -- We have heard it all. [Pause.]
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:28 a.m.
    Mr
    Speaker, just so that we do not come back. I do not know whether we may not wish to stand it down for the time
    being because when we talk about traits, they could also involve behavioural patterns.
    We are not looking at behavioural traits but physical features, or if we like, physical characteristics. So “traits” is even problematic.
    Mr Speaker, I agree that one cannot say that “biometrics” means the science of identifying an individual based on some unique physical traits. We are talking about physical characteristics or features that would be unique to that individual, so the placement of “unique”, even if we accept it, it would also be problematic.
    Mr Speaker, I believe we now have the principle, and I would want to suggest to the Hon Chairman that we may have to step thinks down for the time being.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    We can conclude on this.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we can conclude --
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    We can.
    Hon Chairman, the Hon Majority Leader is inclined towards “unique”.

    Yes, any compromise?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the Hon Majority Leader could give us his final rendition, then --
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, please give us a rendition that would enable the Hon Chairman know which direction you are positively flowing towards.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to propose to the Hon Chairman:
    “ ‘Biometric' means the science of identifying an individual based on . . . “
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    It is a science now.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:38 a.m.
    Yes, because what we are looking for --
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Proceed.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:38 a.m.
    “ ‘Biometric'means the science of identifying an individual based on . . . ” I do not even like “physical” because what we are to look for are biological characteristics, and that is why it is scientific.
    “ ‘Biometric' means the science of identifying an individual based on biological characteristics unique to that individual”.
    rose
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, biological characteristics --
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the senior medical officer wants to come in.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Please, you are the Hon Chairman; I was asking --
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not know whether it is biological or physical, and that is why I defer to the medical doctor who has done anatomy and physiology.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    I do not know when the Hon Majority Leader started to think of biology. I thought we were all moving from that pathway, but well
    -- 11:38 a.m.

    Dr Kwaku Afriyie 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, unfortunately, I would not go with my Hon Leader. “Biological” is too restrictive. In this sense, we could use other characteristics.
    I have even alluded to the fact that we could use derivatives from a person to identify him or her, if the action generates secondary markers that may not be biological. So it needs not be biological.
    The use of “science” -- “art” is more encompassing. I have told this House that there is a confluence between art and science. In usage, we could say “the art of”, and it does not introduce any willingness or ambiguity into this; it is very clear.
    It is an art because there is an interplay between science and art. A person's action of identifying something could be described as an art, it needs not be a science. It could also lead to precision.
    Thank you.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    In fact, “art”
    encompasses science when we really look at it in a bigger form.
    Dr Boye 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I respectfully disagree with my senior Hon Colleague, and support the position of the Hon Majority Leader.
    Mr Speaker, I could use three physical features of yours to identify you -- your height, weight and, forgive me, the shape of your head. These are three physical features that could let anyone who does not know you to successfully identify you.
    Mr Speaker, but these three physical features are not unique to you only. So, if that gentleman or lady enters, at a time when we have another individual who has those same features, it is possible that he or she would pick another person based on the physical features, but it would be the wrong person. In fact, your son could, honestly, be mistaken for your good self-based on those features.
    Mr Speaker, the iris is a biological feature which is restricted and unique to only your good Self. The reason we did not say the size of the finger but the fingerprint is that it is a biological feature that is unique to only you. If we take one's sweat, it comes from one's system; it is unique to only that person.
    So any feature that is physical but not biological could lead to mistakes. It may succeed in identifying a person, but it could pick others who are in that same frame.
    Mr Speaker, in fact, I am so amazed that the Hon Majority Leader, who is not a physician, has given us the right term; it ought to be
    “biological”; otherwise we could get it wrong.
    Thank you for the opportunity.
    Mr Avedzi 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I googled “biometric” to look at the definition, and it is almost the same as defined by the Hon Majority Leader. The only difference is that the Google definition talks about “system”, while the Hon Majority Leader said “science”. It says, and I beg to quote:
    “A system of identifying an individual based on biological characteristics unique to that individual”.
    So Mr Speaker, let us support the Hon Majority Leader and put the Question.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    By replacing “science” with “system”?
    Mr Avedzi 11:38 a.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Very well, I would put the Question on the amendment duly moved by the Hon Majority Leader and supported by the Hon Deputy Minority Leader.
    In other words, Hon Chairman, your position has become otiose. We have moved forward.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, there is a further amendment to clause
    100.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, Interpretation of “designation” delete and insert the following:
    “‘designation' means the identification of a system that can pose systemic risk which the Bank of Ghana intends to supervise”.
    Mr Avedzi 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman should explain this new rendition. There was a rendition but he has come up with a new one, so he should tell us the defect in the first one and why this new proposal?
    Mr Speaker 11:38 a.m.
    What mischief does this intend to cure?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the Bill, “designation” is defined with reference to clause
    46(2).
    In the proposed amendment, we are taking away the cross reference to clause 46(2) in the Bill.
    So, if we are looking for the definition of “designation”, it is clear from the interpretation section without going to section 46 sub clause (2) as contained in the Bill.
    Mr Avedzi 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is not clear to me. If he is deleting the reference made to section 46(2) then there must be a reason. So he should just say that he is deleting that portion that is not for making reference to section 46(2) -- it is not complete.
    Mr Speaker, it would help us if he could explain why he is not making that reference.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not get his point.
    In the Bill, there is a definition for “designation”. It means:
    “a written notification under subsection (2) of section 46 addressed to a person who the Bank of Ghana believes to be an operator of a system and considers to supervise.”
    Mr Speaker, this is clumsy and cumbersome and the Committee has proposed that “designation” would mean “the identification of a system that can pose systemic risk which the Bank of Ghana intends to supervise.”
    Mr Speaker, we have defined what systemic risk is in clause 49 and this new definition is crystal clear and better than what we have in the Bill. I do not know what else the Hon Deputy Minority Leader wants me to do.
    Mr Speaker 11:48 a.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, I hope you got the Hon Chairman.
    Mr Avedzi 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the old rendition says that “designation” means;
    “a written notification under subsection (2) of section 46 addressed to a person who the Bank of Ghana believes to be an operator of a system and considers to supervise.”
    Mr Speaker, the new rendition is introducing “risk” but the first definition did not have “risk”. Mr Speaker, the new rendition reads: “designation means the identification of a system that can pose systemic risk which the Bank of Ghana intends to supervise.”
    Mr Speaker, it is completely different from the original one and that is why I want the reason for the introduction of “systemic risk”.
    Mr Speaker 11:48 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, I hope you are with him.
    In this rendition, we are talking about risk and even describing it adjectivally as “systemic”. That is conspicuously absent from the original rendition.
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, as we are told, in the Interpretation Section “designation” means;
    “a written notification under subsection (2) of section 46 addressed to a person who the Bank of Ghana believes to be an operator of a system and considers to supervise.”
    Mr Speaker, we should even look at that construction, but if we want the meaning of “designation” then we should look at where it has been applied. Mr Speaker, when you read from clause 46 (1) it states that;
    “The Bank of Ghana may
    Mr Speaker, subclause (2) reads 11:48 a.m.
    “A designation under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) shall be in writing and addressed to any person the Bank of Ghana identifies as the operator of the system.”
    Now, when we come to the meaning of “designation” in this context it reads: “a written notification …” That is what it is supposed to be.
    Mr Speaker, so the second amendment that the Hon Chairman is proffering is so much out of sync with the context in which “designation” has been applied.
    Mr Speaker, I know that he is speaking on behalf of the Committee -- he does not need to consult with the Committee. He must withdraw this.
    Mr Speaker 11:48 a.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, we are at sea with you and the general perception is that the original rendition is clear without an intervention.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, if we could stand this down because there were specific instructions to the issue.
    Mr Speaker 11:48 a.m.
    Hon Members, it is stood down accordingly.
    Hon Chairman, there were specific instructions from who?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, there were specific instructions from the Committee to the Attorney- General's Department to redraft and I have a letter here that has been signed by the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, Ms Gloria Akuffo, where -- ?
    Mr Speaker 11:48 a.m.
    Very well.
    We could make progress and come back to it. Hon Members, the proposed amendment numbered (v) on the Order Paper has been stood down accordingly.
    Hon Chairman, there is another proposed amendment to clause 100.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move clause 100 -- add the following new interpretation:
    “‘Electronic Financial Service' includes a medium of expanding financial assess through technological innovation”
    Mr Speaker, this is to provide for a definition which is missing from the Bill. In the Bill, there is no definition for “Electronic Financial Service” but it has been used in the Bill so we are providing a definition for it.
    Mr Avedzi 11:48 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a service on its own that is being included -- that is financial service being provided through technological means or innovation.
    Mr Speaker, my problem with the definition is that he says “Electronic Financial Service” includes a medium of expanding financial access. Mr Speaker, it does not flow, but if it is a service that is being provided and if it includes having access to financial services through technology, then let us say so.
    But if we say “expanding” then how could a service being provided be an expansion? No Mr Speaker, so, it should read “ ‘Electronic Financial Service' includes a medium of affording financial access through technological innovation. Mr Speaker, but not expansion.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    “ ‘Electronic Fianancial Service', includes a medium of financial access through technological innovation”. So that we would remove “expanding”. That is what the Hon Member is saying.
    Mr Francis K. A. Cudjoe 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my view is that it should read: “ ‘Electronic Financial Service' includes a medium of extending financial access through technological innovation.”
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    We do not need to extend it; the fact is that it includes financial access to technological innovation.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe what we could do is to delete “expanding”. We do not even substitute it with “affording”. “Electronic financial service includes a medium of financial access through technological innovation or through technology”. (Access was captured as Assess).
    The word “access” is double “c”, not double “s”, which means a completely different thing altogether.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 100 -- add the following new interpretation:
    “ ‘Ghanaian Company' means a company which is incorporated under the Company's Act of 1970 (Act 179) and which is wholly owned by a citizen of Ghana”.
    Mr Speaker, this was to --
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    Is “Ghanaian company” defined elsewhere?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in some instances the definition would mean 30 per cent.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    What is a Ghanaian company? Has it been defined elsewhere?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:58 p.m.
    There are a number of definitions of a Ghanaian company scattered all over. Some would qualify it as majority ownership; in some instances 30 per cent ownership would even qualify, so there is not a universal definition of a Ghanaian company.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    I think this needs to be seriously looked at, so that we do not reinvent the wheel of what a Ghanaian company is. To my mind, we have to interrogate the Hon learned Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, because a Ghanaian company is, to my mind, generally well and truly defined, and we would not want to make a law which would seek to introduce a new definition.
    A Ghanaian company by law is a Ghanaian company by law.
    Mr Bernard Ahiafor 11:58 p.m.
    It is a company incorporated in Ghana.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    Exactly, and if it is a company incorporated in Ghana, when did the citizen matter come in? We must be careful. It is a complete nomenclature being introduced into our law so far as we generally know up till this morning.
    Hon Dr Akoto Osei would tell us that in the Ministry of Finance, a Ghanaian company does not have to be owned by a citizen of Ghana.
    Dr A. A.Osei 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my recollection is that, generally speaking, a Ghanaian company should have majority shares -- However, in this instance, it is government policy
    to limit the area to wholly owned Ghanaian companies. It cannot be partial, so it is a policy that is being implemented.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    If it is so then the intention must be very clear, that in this Act, it should be like this. That is why we may want to consult the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice. We are already consulting the Attorney-General and Minister for Justice on one thing; let us add both.
    Mr Ahiafor 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, from the explanation, then they are talking about Ghanaian owned company, not Ghanaian company. Any company registered in Ghana would be a Ghanaian company, but that would not mean that that company is owned only by a Ghanaian.
    But if we are talking about Ghanaian owned company, it is a different thing altogether, and I think that is the policy underpinning -- [Interruption] -- Yes, wholly owned, a purely Ghanaian owned company.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    I see Dr Akoto Osei agrees in that regard, so we want to make the Hon learned Attorney- General and Minister for Justice be clear in her mind that we are talking about a Ghanaian owned company in this context; this one rather looks ambiguous, as if we are now reinventing the wheel and defining what a Ghanaian company is.
    So please just add that, too. We have two clauses, (v) and (vi).
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have not used Ghanaian owned company in the body of the Bill for --
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, please, you are already doing a consultation, so just add that and let us come conclusively.
    So (vi) is also stood down.
    Item (viii)? There is a new clause.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, where that terminology is used in the body of the Bill, it is described as Ghanaian company, not Ghanaian owned company, and it is that construction that we are seeking to give interpretation to.
    In the area of mobile money transaction, it is sought to limit it to companies that are wholly owned by Ghanaians, so in the context of usage, it means a company that is wholly owned by Ghanaians.
    So more or less, it is a special purpose company that is being created by the Act in this context. Even though we are yet to amend the current Companies Act, it would not really offend clause 6 of the original Act, the Companies Act, 1963, which says; “this Act shall not abrogate or affect a special legislation relating to companies carrying on businesses of banking, insurance or any other business which is subject to special regulation”.
    So Mr Speaker, this limits the purpose of a Ghanaian company, as defined by this Act, to a company
    that is wholly owned by Ghanaians. That is why I am saying it would not offend the Companies Act.
    Mr Speaker 11:58 p.m.
    Often, when there is such a situation, the defining words would make reference to the already existing law, and then indicate what it really means, to avoid ambiguity. This is why it is reasonable and proper to consult the Hon learned Attorney- General and Minister for Justice.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, can we move on? When we have finished with clause 100 as per the new --
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, if we can --
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    One moment, please, I am speaking.
    When we have finished with items (v) and (vii), then we shall put the Question to clause 100 as a whole.
    Hon Chairman, item viii? We are not going back. Let us make progress.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, (viii) would be an entirely new clause.
    Mr Speaker, we are on clause 100 and the last amendment in clause 100 would be the item numbered (vii).
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    Then what about your “Intra-agency cooperation”,
    101?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is not a definition. That is a proposal to introduce a new clause.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    Then please proceed.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was drawing your attention to the item (vii) that for clarity, we begin the phrase with “In this Act”.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    Hon Member, we have already referred that as part of the exercise by the Hon Attorney- General and Minister for Justice. Do you want to take us back?
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, please, go by my directive.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in that case, then we would have to revisit “designation”, which we stood down so that we can now put the Question on the entire clause 100.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    No, we cannot put the Question on the entire clause when there are two areas that we need to consider.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Very well, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    Until we put the Question on the totality of the various sub-divisions, we cannot put the Question on the entire clause.
    Hon Chairman, be guided.
    On putting the Question on the entire clause, I would have to refer to “… as has been variously amended …” So how can I put the Question on the entire clause?
    Any further business on this, Hon Chairman?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the new clause in items (viii) and (ix) stand in the name of the Hon Minister for Communication and there is no indication --
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    The Hon Minister is not here?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:08 p.m.
    No, Mr Speaker. So if that can be deemed withdrawn.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    Do you agree with the amendment?
    Since it is from the Hon Minister herself, I would want to give her a chance to persuade this House at the Consideration Stage why she wants that particular amendment in. That is the least I can do for an Hon Minister.
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the amendment being proposed by the Hon Minister is a sequel to the amendment that she proposed earlier which has been lost.
    So if we stand them down, Mr Speaker, respectfully, I would not know what the import of standing it down would mean. This is because already, it is supposed to be a sequel to proposals that she submitted to us, which have all been lost.
    So Mr Speaker, I believe that you may want to put a question on them or they may be considered withdrawn
    and then we move on. Otherwise, it would continue to hold us up..
    Mr Speaker, the Minister, I must admit, is indisposed but even if she were here, I believe she would be abandoning them.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    All right, Hon Chairman, we already have clause101 originally as “Repeal and savings”. We do not want to be confused by what is proposed by the Hon Minister. We would come to that hurdle later. But I take it that so far as clause 101, “Repeal and savings” is concerned, there is no listed amendment then.

    There is no amendment. In fact, those who were opposing the amendment tried to relist for us but we have clause 101 already -- Repeal and savings.

    Hon Members, there is no listed amendment to 101. Is there any proposed amendment at this stage? And in the absence of any listed amendment, is there any amendment on the Floor of the House at this moment?

    Clauses 101 and 102 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Hon Members, we are continuing. The first schedule.
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.
    So at this point, we may well deal with the new clauses
    Mr Speaker 12:08 p.m.


    that have been proposed and dispose of them.

    Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the amendment proposed by the Hon Member for Suhum, the Hon Frederick Opare-Ansah, has been brought to the attention of the bank.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, you said it has what?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it has been brought to the attention of the sponsors of the Bill and the Committee. So, I would want to move that amendment with some further modifications.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    You said you would want to do what?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I said I would want to move clause (x) with some further modifications to it.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, what about the new clause by way of clause (ix)?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as explained by the Hon Majority Leader --
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    So, shall we move that one first, and then deal with it as abandoned?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Very well, Mr Speaker.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, before item (ix), we have item (viii).
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Is that clause also in the name of the Hon Minister for Communications?
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Very well.
    Hon Members, there is item (viii), also in the name of the Hon Minister for Communications, and there is a proposed amendment accordingly.
    In the absence of any support by the Hon Chairman of the Committee, I deem the proposed amendment withdrawn.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, item (ix) is also another proposed amendment in the name of the Hon Minister for Communications.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, is there any support for that amendment?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    No, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, in the absence of any support for that
    amendment, I deem it to have been withdrawn also.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, there is a new item (x), that stands in the name of the Hon Opare-Ansah.
    Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee, do you have support for this?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, that amendment has my support.
    Mr Speaker, there are further amendments, so I would want to be permitted to move the amendment as further amended.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 103 (1) reads 12:18 p.m.
    “The Bank of Ghana may establish a monitoring system to measure the volume…” .
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    In other words, you agree with the Hon Member's proposed amendment in part?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Very well, go on.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 103 (1) reads:
    “The Bank of Ghana may establish a monitoring system to
    measure the volumes of transactions processed by the payment system.”
    Mr Speaker, this means that we are deleting all the phrases from the conjunction “and” in the Hon Member's amendment, all the way to the word “measuring.”
    Mr Speaker, I would therefore take it again. It reads 12:18 p.m.
    “The Bank of Ghana may establish a monitoring system to measure the volumes of transactions processed by the payment system.”
    Mr Speaker, therefore, from the Hon Member's amendment, we are deleting all the phrases after the word “system” in line two, all the phrases in line three and all the phrases in line four, up to the word “measuring”. Therefore the caption becomes, “to measure the volumes of transactions processed by the payment system.”
    Mr Speaker, this is on subclause 1, but in subclause 2, I beg to move that we delete in line one, the phrase “to be”. Therefore, subclause 2 would now read: “The monitoring system established under subsection (1)…”; then the rest would follow.
    Mr Speaker, subclause (3) would stay as it is.
    Mr Speaker, I would like to take subclause (1) again. It would now read 12:18 p.m.
    “The Bank of Ghana may establish a monitoring system to measure the volumes of transactions processed by the payment system.”
    Mr Avedzi 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman of the Committee is moving the amendments as if it is his amendment. The amendment belongs to the Hon Opare-Ansah, but he is not here, and we do not know whether the changes that the Hon Chairman of the Committee is making is in agreement with the proponent of the amendment.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Leader, it now belongs to the House. It is for the House to adjust it at the Consideration Stage, as it deems fit, and the Hon Chairman is entitled to lead us in that direction. So it is a suggestion.
    Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee, do you stand by your proposed amendment?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe the Table Office has it as read.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, in the absence of the Hon Member, it is the Hon Chairman's prerogative to adapt it as he thinks fit, and it is for the House to approve it or otherwise, as it deems fit.
    rose
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Minority Whip?
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would not have had any problem with the Hon Chairman's amendment, but if we look at the Hon Opare-Ansah's amendment, the key phrase there is “interconnect system”, but the Hon Chairman takes away the idea of the monitoring of the volumes.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to know if the Hon Chairman could justify his taking away of the phrase, “interconnect systems”, which is the original rendition by the Hon Member of Parliament for Suhum.
    [Pause] --
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Chairman?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the Hon Member for Banda cares to know, if we read subclause (2) in full, it says and with your permission I read; “the monitoring systems established under subsection (1) shall not have any common usage or interconnect…”
    Mr Speaker, now in clause (1), we are saying; “and interconnect this system…” This phrase in subclause (1) conflicts with the one in subclause (2). We are saying in subclause (2) that it shall not have any common usage or interconnect.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Member, are you satisfied, so that we put the Question?
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have no problem.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Thank you.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, we have finished with clause (103) as a whole. Is that not so?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Clause 103 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, we can move on to the Schedules at this stage. Is that not so?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 12:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is so.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Very well.
    The First Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, we would move on to the Second Schedule.
    The Second Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Speaker 12:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, we would now take the Third Schedule.
    The Third Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Hon Members, at this juncture, we shall suspend deliberation on the Long Title until we have finished with the other two subclauses and then, we would have concluded the Consideration Stage of the Bill accordingly.
    Hon Majority Leader, do we proceed with the Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill, 2018?
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Very well, we are still at the Consideration Stage.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to enquire from the Finance Committee -- I know the Hon Chairman has been with us -- whether the Report that he laid is ready. If they are, then we can go back and deal with the Motions listed as items 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11.
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Hon Leader, you would tell me whether they are ready or not.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:28 p.m.
    For the time being, Mr Speaker, we can continue with item 16.
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, are we ready?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:28 p.m.
    Item
    16.
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Our readiness lies in your bosom now. You would tell us whether we are ready. [Pause.]
    The Hon Second Deputy Speaker would take over in the process. Hon Majority Leader, tell us where we should go?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we are moving to item 16.
    Mr Speaker 12:28 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I am afraid, I did not get you. [Pause.]
    MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I am told we are now moving to item 16.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:32 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, item 16.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    The Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill, 2018 at the Consideration Stage.
    BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:32 p.m.

    STAGE 12:32 p.m.

    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Hon Members, I have just been briefed that we have done clauses 1, 2 and 3 and so, we would go to clause
    4.
    Clause 4 -- Governing Body of the Institute.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Is the Hon Ranking Member taking over from the Hon Chairman?
    Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 12:32 p.m.
    He is a member of the Committee.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    I need to know.
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 12:32 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Ranking Member
    is available here so he can stand in for the Hon Chairman.
    Ranking Member of the Committee (Mr Peter Nortsu- Kotoe): Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 subclause (1), paragraph (a), line 1, after “Institute” delete all the words up to the end of the paragraph.
    So, it would read:
    “A chairperson who is the President of the Institute”
    This is because there are other provisions in the Bill where the members and President would be elected at an annual general meeting so there is no need repeating it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    There being no consideration, I will put the Question. Are we together? Are we ready to go on?
    The Hon Ranking Member moved the Motion and I wanted to put the Question.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:32 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I did not hear the reason that he proffered for the deletion.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Hon Ranking Member, you are asked to inform the House again of the reason for the amendment.
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:32 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the rationale is that the President and Vice are to be elected so there is no need for the emphasis over there.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    This Bill is not to handle the process of electing the President of the

    Institute. There is a different thing there being handled so, whoever is elected as President would be the Chair of the Council. Is that not what he talked about?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:32 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that precisely is what I wanted to hear from the Hon Ranking Member, because the process of election should not be the concern of this House.
    It is the recognition that we give to whoever is the President. It is the President who becomes a member; however he is elected should not be the concern of this House.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Exactly. So I will put the Question again.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    There is a further proposed amendment to clause 4.
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:32 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 subclause (1), paragraph (b), line 1, after “Institute” delete all the words up to the end of the paragraph.
    It is the same reason for that of the first amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:32 p.m.
    Hon Members, it is the same reason. It is consequential so I will put the Question.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Ranking Member?
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 subclause (1), paragraph ( c), delete and insert the following:
    “one representative of the Bank of Ghana not below the rank of a Director”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    Let us know why because the Bill says, the Governor of the Bank of Ghana or a representative of the Governor not below the rank of a Director. And you say we should delete this and replace it with, “one representative of the Bank of Ghana not below the rank of a Director”.
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we look at the original proposal, it says, “the Governor of the Bank of Ghana”. We feel that the Governor with his heavy schedules might not have time, so we want it to be specific that he should appoint a repre- sentative, who should not be below the rank of a Director to take up that position on his behalf.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    Yes, but your proposed amendment is not a representative of the Governor. It says a representative of the Bank. They are different things all together.
    So why not the representative of the Governor but the representative of the Bank? Now, you are making
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in subsequent clauses you would see that it is the Ministry that is a representative and the Minister or the Ministry brings a representative. It is in the Bill. Likewise, it should be the Bank of Ghana.
    Mr Speaker, the second reason is also that to put a Governor on this Board -- the Governor is the Executive Chairman of the Bank of Ghana, is he not? And he has numerous responsibilities, so to say it is him, probably, was wrong in the first place.
    It is the Bank of Ghana that should be represented. And it can be represented from any ranking not below Directorship. It includes the Governor in that as well even though it is not stated.
    So, if the Hon Minister requests for membership and the Governor decides that he has time, he is qualified. If he decides that it is one of his deputies that he wants to attend, he is qualified.
    If he decides that it is one of the Directors to attend, they are all qualified. We bring the bigger pool but representation in all the subsequent clauses, you would realise that it is the institution not the person bringing the representative.
    So we have Ministry of Finance, we have Ministry of Education and
    we have Ghana Bankers Association as institutions bringing representatives. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    The difficulty in that proposal is one of implementation. When you say the Minister or his representative, the responsibility is on the Minister to decide the representative. When you say the Ministry, then it is not clear who is to take that decision.
    If it is the Minister and you take that decision, somebody could raise an issue that no, they did not say a Minister should nominate or appoint somebody but the Ministry. Which means that there must be the Board.
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you are right in a sense but all the Bills we have had in this House and passed into Acts, it is always the Ministry.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    It is from that experience I am talking.
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Yes, it is the Ministry, it is not the personal thing in the grip of the Minister. It is the Ministry that is being represented so, the Minister, definitely, is the one who is going to make the nomination but he would see that it is something for his Ministry and not his personal thing to nominate anybody who is, probably, unqualified but can dominate if you give the power to the Minister.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    It is the process of getting the representative of the Ministry I am talking about. And the Minister just
    sits and decides that a Director should go and represent or there would be some consultation, or the Ministerial Board or whatever would take the decision? That is the issue I am raising from experience.
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it has always been the Minister since Dr Kwame Nkrumah's time. The Ministerial Board are only involved in advising the Minister, and he could take it or reject it. Every single Bill that comes to this House, we have it exactly the same way.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    The Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation has read the book, “Why Nations Fail”. Have you read it?
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, I have also read it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    Then, you should not be talking like this.
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the fundamental lesson from ‘Why Nations Fail' is we are not strengthening our institutions.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    You think so? It is the concentration of power in the hands of --
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    So we are trying to diffuse that power concentration and decentralise it; demystify it and make it the Ministry.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    That is why I want to get it clarified because it would still be the same thing that the same Minister -- even though we have run away from using
    the term, “the Minister or his representative” and I say “the Ministry.” But you are saying that in practice, it would still be the Minister who would be detecting who should represent the Ministry.
    That is why I say it is still the same; the concentration of the power is still in the hands of the Minister. But democracy is about diffusing and sharing of power to make everybody, at least, not taste but use their potentials to develop.
    Yes, Hon Member?
    Mr Francis Kingsley Ato Codjoe 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we read subclause 4, the paragraphs (a) and (b) in all these, we are talking about certain individuals occupying certain positions. I think in the original Bill, paragraph (c) also talks about the Governor of the Bank of Ghana.
    It is only the paragraph (d) that talks about a representative from an institution. So, if we are keeping the (a) and (d) parts, which is a person sitting on the top of a body, I believe that keeping the Governor there would fall in line with what they are trying to do there.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in these Bills, it is not the person as the Governor that we want to represent. It is the institution. So, we have to keep that in mind.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    Anyway, it is just an issue for you to ponder over.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman has arrived, so he could take over.
    Chairman of Committee on Education (Mr Stevens Siaka) 12:38 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 subclause (1), paragraph (d), delete.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    What is the reason for us to delete “one representative of the Ministry responsible for Education”? The Hon Minister just referred to it and now there is a proposed amendment to delete it. What is the reason?
    Mr Bernard Ahiafor 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would urge the Hon Chairman of the Committee to abandon this amendment. The Chartered Institute of Bankers being an educational institution, there is the need to have a representation from the Ministry of Education.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    I hope the Hon Minister is aware of what is happening? The Hon Chairman has moved for us to delete paragraph (d) from clause 1 and the Hon Member is saying that it is necessary that the Ministry be represented but the Committee, represented by the Hon Chairman, thinks otherwise.
    So can we hear the position of the Hon Minister and then come back to the Hon Ranking Member?
    Dr Prempeh 12:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not know why the Committee decides to remove the Ministry of Education. It is not, as far as I can say, a decision of the Committee. Maybe, it is a typographical error.
    There are Members here who can attest to that fact. Maybe, the printer's devil, as they call it, has --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:38 p.m.
    This one is not printer's devil; it is there.
    Dr Prempeh 12:48 p.m.
    The whole thing there is printer's devil -- [Laughter] -- and I have Members of the Committee including the Ranking Member to attest to that fact, that it is not --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    A substantive item like this cannot be a printer's devil.
    Dr Prempeh 12:48 p.m.
    It sometimes happens in the over exuberance of writing.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    The exuberance of writing is different from printer's devil.
    So Hon Ranking Member, what is the reason behind this?
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is an error because the decision taken was that we should delete “not
    below the rank of a Director”. This is because the Directors might have a lot of schedules but there could be others very qualified to assist in this direction.
    So I think that it is a typographical error. We agreed that there should be one representative of the Ministry responsible for Education on the governing council.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    Why did you delete “not below the rank of a Director” when the others talk about “not below the rank of a Director”?
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a technical issue on the Institute of Bankers, so there must be somebody of a high level working in the Ministry of Education whose expertise could be used.
    He might not be a Director but he might be very useful in that direction. That is why we made that recommendation. He should not necessarily be a Director.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    Your explanation does not support the proposed amendment you made.
    When you delete “not below the rank of a Director”, it means that the Ministry could decide that somebody below the rank of a Director should represent the Ministry. However, your intention is to look for somebody with a higher capacity.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thought the Hon Chairman had already abandoned his amendment in favour of what we have there. That is what I thought he was offering. I do not know why the Hon Ranking Member is trying to amend --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    That might have been done in a private conversation with you, but he has not said that.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
    We convinced him that it had to be there.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    So let it be on record.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
    So he should put it on record.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the total membership of the governing body is 13. Now, it is not only that paragraph that the Committee is calling for its deletion.
    They are calling for the deletion of paragraph (h) as well. If we do that and put the two together, it would bring the number to 11 which would be an odd number.
    If the Hon Chairman maintained this one and we came to paragraph (h) and deleted it, then we would have 12 members, which is an even number. I want the Committee to consider putting the two together.
    I would want to believe that, maybe, when they came to paragraph (h) and deleted it, they were looking
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    Yes, they are proposing that we delete paragraph (h). Let us look at what is before us now before we get to paragraph (h). What is the reason for paragraph (d)?
    Dr Prempeh 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Majority Leader is right, but the decision the Committee took, in relation to what he is saying, to have a bearing on the number was that, when they came to paragraph (j), they would reduce four to three, so that it cures that issue.
    However, paragraph (d) should stay as, “the Ministry responsible for Education with a member not below the rank of a Director”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    So paragraph (d) -- Hon Chairman?
    Mr Siaka 12:48 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, I would go by what the Hon Minister said in relation to paragraph (d). We are to maintain it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    So accordingly, the Hon Chairman is withdrawing the proposed amendment to delete paragraph (d).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    We would go to the next proposed amendment, Chairman of the Committee.
    Mr Siaka 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 -- subclause (1) paragraph (g), delete “an” and insert “the”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    The Hon Chairman wants to be very specific and definite. He is talking about the immediate past President of the Institute.
    In case something happens to the immediate past President, then there would be a vacancy.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we cannot have two immediate past Presidents.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    I asked in case something happens to the immediate past President, what happens?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, well, if the Constitution provides for an immediate past President to be part or perhaps even chair the Council of State --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    The Constitution would not do that and has never done that.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:48 p.m.
    We cannot save the situation. [Laughter.]
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want the Hon Chairman to reconsider and say, “the immediate” or “an
    immediate” so that the lacuna you were talking about could be cured.
    If I am the past President and I am gone, then any past President -- so for example, if I am gone, there would be a vacuum.
    Mr Ahiafor 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I support the Hon Chairman. We want to be definite. We want “the immediate past President”.
    Mr Siaka 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there could be about three past Presidents and if we want to make direct reference, whom are we making the reference to? We are making reference to the immediate one.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    It is good to be definite, so that there is no process in deciding who it should be. I just threw it in, that in that case, if the immediate past President is not available, what happens?
    Mr Francis K. A. Codjoe 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with you that there is the possibility of the immediate past President not being available. So my view is that it should just be a past President.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
    The “past President” would throw it in the open. There must be a process of deciding which of the past Presidents. That is the issue.
    Dr Prempeh 12:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is a huge difference between an immediate past President and past
    Presidents. One of the reasons, as you said, is the procedure for selection. It would then be left to look at who has the favour of the current President to be nominated. So, “immediate past President” specifies the issue.
    Besides, it is not at every meeting that everybody must be present, but there would be an immediate past President who has been recognised. If for reason of death, sickness or something, he or she cannot appear, there are almost always remedies for doing this.
    We should not behave as if when we say “immediate past President” - - What about if the President is sick? So we should go with the Committee's amendment and say, “the immediate past President” to specify.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause -- subclause (1) paragraph (h), delete.
    Mr Speaker, the intention is that the Treasurer has been replaced by the internal auditor and the CEO is in charge of all financial matters and he reports to the Council; so the Treasurer would not be relevant.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, where has the Treasurer been replaced by the internal auditor?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    I was asking why you have the President and the Vice President being there? There is a President as the Chairman, then a member who is the Vice President and there is also a Chief Executive Officer; and you wanted to add a treasurer? [Pause]
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 -- subclause (1), paragraph (j), line 2, after “Institute”, add “at least two of whom are women”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    I did hear from you that there was an intention to reduce the four to three, but now you only want to insert a phrase “at least two of whom are women''. So, would the four stay?
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would delete ‘'four'' and insert ‘'three''.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Where is the proposed amendment to that?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he is further amending it on the Floor.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    He did not say that.
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am amending it further.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Hon Members, there is a further amendment to clause 1 paragraph (j). Instead of “four members'', it would be “three members''.
    So the new rendition would be:
    “three members of the institute at least two of whom are women elected by the members at an Annual General Meeting of the Institute”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to ask the Committee if after this amendment they would still want the “at least two'' or it should be “at least one''? This is because it was four, and they had “two” so would they further amend it?
    Dr Prempeh 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have looked at it and also looked at the number of bankers who exist in this country. If we are not careful, we would have a leadership of only men -- if we look at past presidents and CEOs even as it exists now.
    So we should make a deliberate effort to bring more women as
    representatives. Even if it were all three, I would not have been bothered, but “at least two of whom should be women'' is what the Committee has proposed and we support it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    The new rendition would be:
    “three members of the Institute, at least, two of whom are women elected by the members at an Annual General Meeting of the Institute''.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4 -- subclause (3), delete and insert the following:
    “(a) exercise general oversight responsibility for the strategic direction of the Institute;
    (b) consider proposals submitted by the Chief Executive Office for review of the terms and conditions of service of staff of the Institute; and
    (c) ensure the proper and effective performance of the function of the Institute.”
    Mr Codjoe 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with the proposed amendment except that, I thought it should have been prefixed with “the Council''. The new rendition would then be:
    “The Council shall exercise general oversight….''

    This is because there is no reference to who is to perform the activities that have been indicated here.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, what do you say to the proposed rendition that has been given? Do you want the Hon Ranking Member to assist you?
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, to specify and to know who is exercising that general oversight, I think it is proper to prefix it with “the Council''. I agree with him.
    “The Council shall exercise general oversight…''
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    So you do agree with the proposed amendment?
    Mr Siaka 12:58 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker?
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, could you give clarification on paragraph (a)? What do you mean by “exercise general oversight responsibility for the strategic direction of the Institute''?
    Hon Majority Leader, you were on your feet?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with the construction which was preferred by my Hon Colleague, except I thought that the

    “four'' has to do with the governing body of the Institute, but the “three'' that he talked about relates to the functions of the Council, so we should rather give it a new headnote for three and these ones would then be assigned accordingly as functions of the Council conjoining the new three to the establishment of the Council.

    That is where the problem is, otherwise, how it has been done is all right.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:08 p.m.
    Hon Member, is the “Council” different from the “Governing body of the Institute”?
    Dr Prempeh 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in this Bill, the Governing body of the Institute is the Council; so it is the same thing.
    The Hon Majority Leader is suggesting that the amendment proposed should be rather situated under “Functions of the Council”. So we should create a new sub-heading, “Functions of the Council” and bring these three subclauses under it. So essentially, we should accept it and do a rearrangement.
    Mr Speaker, what he is saying is that we should accept the amendment proffered but capture it under “Functions of the Council”. So he is making it even better and simpler which we can understand. But we would have to vote and accept that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:08 p.m.
    Hon Minister, what about subclause
    2?
    Dr Prempeh 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, subclause 2 talks about constitution of the Council and that shall be done by the President; so it is not a function. What the Hon Member is saying is right. Subclause (2) is about;
    “The members of the Council shall be appointed by the President in accordance with article 70 of the Constitution.” --
    That is not a function.
    Mr Speaker, subclause 3 is a function; they will exercise general oversight, proper and effective performance of the function of the Institute. And the Committee is replacing it by these three amendments which are generally accepted. But it should be under a subclause, “Functions of the Council” to make it neater; we accept that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:08 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Education, throughout clause 4(1), the phrase that is being used is the “Governing body of the Institute is a Council”.
    Now, in clause 2, that phraseology has been dropped and we are going straight; “the Members of the Council shall be appointed by the President in
    accordance with article 70 of the Constitution.” This means that “The Governing body of the Institute” has been dropped.
    Now, we go to what the Hon Majority Leader has proposed -- Council; and you now bring in the functions.
    Dr Prempeh 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you are right. But the first line of what you just read says that the Governing body of the Institute is a “Council” which has been defined to be what he said. So I do agree with the Hon Majority Leader. We should accept the three clauses, and give them the sub- heading “Functions of the Council.”
    Mr Ahiafor 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity.
    Mr Speaker, I am inclined to change my mind regarding this particular amendment although I am a member of the Committee.
    The original rendition says, “The Council shall ensure the proper and effective performance of the functions of the Institute”. The amendment being made, if you look at subclauses (a) and (b), would be an embodiment of subclause (c). So I do not know why we are splitting it.
    Mr Speaker, to further buttress my point, I hold in my hand the Chartered Institute of Taxation Act, 2016; section 4(3) says, and I beg quote:
    “The Council shall ensure the proper and effective per- formance of the functions of the Institute.”
    So to be able to ensure effective performance of the functions of the Institute, definitely, you would exercise oversight responsibility and you would also consider the proposals that are submitted before the Council. So I am of the view that the subclause (c), takes care of the situation and we need to go by the original rendition.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I strongly disagree with my Hon Colleague who has just spoken.
    Mr Speaker, the reason is, in legislating, we would endeavour to go into the nitty-gritty of the functions as we so wish to impose on that body.
    Otherwise, if we came to clause 3, “Functions of the Institute” and we look at clause 3 (f), it provides that to achieve the object under section 2 the Institute shall “perform any other function that is necessary for the attainment of the object of the Institute.”
    Mr Speaker, subclauses (a) to (e) are all embedded in subclause (f); so, if we state the Function of the Institute and say, “To achieve the object under section 2, the Institute shall (f) perform the functions that are necessary for the attainment of the object of the
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:08 p.m.


    Mr Speaker, I am saying that there we have “any other” but if we extrapolate his suggestion and we captured subclause (f) as “perform such functions that are necessary for the attainment of the object of the Institute,” then it could encapsulate everything -- Is that how laws are made? You would try as much as possible to strand the various issues out which is what this new clause 3 provides.

    Indeed, the subclause (c), “ensure the proper and effective performance of the functions that are necessary for the effective operationalisation of the Institute,” to me captures everything.

    If we would want some further qualification of subclause (c), that could be done in line with what happens in clause 3(f).
    Mr Ahiafor 1:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, from clause 3, clearly, the functions already exist. What this tells us is that the Council shall ensure the proper and effective performance of the functions -- the functions are already in existence and spelt out in clause 3. So to again say “exercise oversight responsibility and consider proper” -- the functions are already in existence and spelt out in clause 3.
    So what this rendition is saying is that the Council shall ensure proper and effective performance of the already existing functions. The
    example with subclause (f) does not come in here at all because it is any other functions, which is also a function to be performed. So the Council must ensure proper and effective performance of that function also.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:18 p.m.
    What the Hon Majority Leader is saying is that under the “any other functions”, the proposal now is to identify some of the any other functions and that is where you have the issues of the proposal from the Chief Executive Officer.
    So that would go directly to the Council for them to give approval as in subclause (b), consider proposal submitted by the Chief Executive Officer for review of the terms and conditions of service of staff for the Institute”. This is not spelt out under clause 3 but only comes under clause 3(f).
    So he feels that there is nothing wrong with identifying those things and specifying them for the attention of the Council and not just the Institute. That was the explanation he gave.

    Hon Members, is there any other contribution before I put the Question?

    I would put the Question on:
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my Hon Colleague, Member for Akatsi, has said the formulation of the last clause should follow the lines of subclause 3(f). So, we could say;
    “shall perform other connected functions necessary for the effective and efficient operation of the Institute”.
    That would cure the mischief that the Hon Member wants to address.
    Mr Speaker, we could say;
    “shall perform other related functions necessary for the effective and efficient operation of the Institute”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:18 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, in your proposed amendment -- [Pause] -- Yes, is there any -- ? [Laughter.]
    Yes, Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have been persuaded, momentarily, at least, to engage in a tactical withdrawal of the amendment that I proffered. [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:18 p.m.
    It is accepted.
    I would put the Question on the proposed and further amendment to subclause (3). I would read it again so that we could get the proper rendition:
    “The Council shall:
    (a) exercise general oversight responsibility for the strategic direction of the Institute;
    (b)consider proposals submitted by the Chief Executive Officer for review of the terms and conditions of service of staff of the Institute; and
    (c) ensure the proper and effective performance of the functions of the Institute.”
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 4 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Stevens Siaka 1:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 5, subclause (7), closing phrase after paragraph (c) delete all the words after “appoint” and insert “another person for the unexpired term in accordance with this Act”.
    Mr Speaker, this is to ensure conformity with best practices. That is the underlying factor for this change. [Pause] --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:18 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Member?
    Mr Shaibu Mahama 1:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am most grateful. I recognise the reason the amendment is being proposed but I think it would not be fatal to still leave it as it is.
    Mr Speaker, I tend to look at the reason the amendment is being proposed. It presupposes that if there is a vacancy during the tenure of a Board, the unexpired term that is left should be filled. But “in accordance with the Act” still means that one cannot appoint any person to replace it over or beyond the tenure that the people are already sworn in to steer the affairs.
    Mr Speaker, I think we should go with the current rendition.
    Dr Prempeh 1:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, everybody appointed to a Governing Board is given a letter of appointment
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:28 p.m.
    Let us listen to the Hon Members on the Committee first.
    Mr Ahiafor 1:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if I listened to Hon Shaibu very well, his concern was “… in accordance with this Act”. Section 4(2) explains why the appointment to fill the unexpired term of the member should be in accordance with this Act. Section 4(2) reads and I beg to quote:
    “The members of the Council shall be appointed by the President in accordance with article 70 of the Constitution.”
    So, if there is a vacancy as a result of clause 5(7)(a), (b) and (c), the appointment to fill the vacant position must also be in accordance with this Act.
    Mr Shaibu Mahama 1:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is exactly my case. The Board has a tenure, and appointment of a member cannot exceed that. The Board has a four-year mandate, so the members appointed would have to serve for four years.
    Midway, if there is a vacancy and there is a need to fill it, we cannot go over and above what is -- in other words, we cannot say that a person's should be four years, which would supersede or go beyond the tenure that was given the Board.
    That is the reason I think that this current rendition, once it is in line with the Act --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:28 p.m.
    Hon Member, but there is nothing wrong with making it specific. It makes it clearer to everybody, because, in practice, it does not happen the way you have explained it. Usually, in practice, they have difficulty in implementing those provisions.
    If we just leave it open, the person would say that he or she has four years to serve unless it is stated in the letter. This provision is to make it clear that if one is to replace somebody for whatever reason, one is to serve for the unexpired term.
    Hon Members, I would put the Question on the proposed amendment moved by the Hon Chairman.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:28 p.m.
    It is not “any other person”; it is “… shall appoint another person for the unexpired term in accordance with this Act”. That is the proposal.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the reason I am calling for further qualification is that these persons are institutional representatives. So, I thought that if one person is -- [Interruption.] No, we are deleting all the words. [Interruption.] I did not see “in accordance with this Act”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:28 p.m.


    Clause 5 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Hon Members, we would have to suspend the House for five minutes. [Interruption.]
    1.36 p.m. -- Sitting suspended.

    1.41 p.m. -- Sitting resumed.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Hon Members, please resume your seats.
    We are still at the consideration of the Bill.
    Clause 6 -- Meetings of the Council
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, before the Hon Majority Leader went out, he indicated that after clause 5, we would go back to -- [Interruption].
    Mr Speaker, we have a Report from the Finance Committee so we would have stopped at clause 5, take that Report and probably, suspend
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:38 p.m.


    Sitting. Mr Speaker, so if we could take the Report after clause 6.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, I am not aware of what you are saying. You are saying it to me but the Hon Majority Leader has not indicated to me that we were to stop at clause 5 and move to another item.
    Hon Minority Leader.
    Mr Iddrisu 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is the understanding that I also --
    Mr Speaker, fortunately, the Hon Majority Leader is here and probably we may conclude clause 6 and suspend the Consideration Stage of the Bill for the Hon Minister for Education to move a Motion.
    Mr Speaker, so he has to choose between apples and pie; either he wants the Consideration Stage of the Bill or he wants to move the Motion on the Loan Agreement.
    Mr Speaker, if he engages with the Hon Majority Leader, we would be good to go, but once we are on clause 6 and the amendments associated with it are not many, we could put the Question on clause 6 and then suspend the Consideration Stage to allow the Hon Chairman to move the Motion on the financing agreement.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Hon Member for Suhum, are you part
    of the -- or do you want to debate the issue that has been raised by the Hon Leaders?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the time that we are using to debate whether we should get out of the Consideration Stage could have been used to finish clause 6 by now.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    So, we would take clause 6.
    Mr Siaka 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 6, subclause (3) delete ‘‘seven'' and insert ‘six''.
    Mr Speaker, the reason is that the number has been reduced from 13 to 11 so we want six members to be present.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Are you sure the number has been reduced from 13 to 11?
    Mr Bernard Ahiafor 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, following the amendment of clause 4 by the deletion of paragraph (h) and the reduction of four members to three members, the number of the Governing Council members has reduced from 13 to 11.
    Mr Speaker, when it was 13, the text clearly made quorum to be seven, which means that they want 50 or more. So, once the number has reduced to 11, then the seven consequentially would have to change to six.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    But six is an even number and with the issue of taking decisions, the Hon
    Chairman does not have a casting vote. Have you considered that for the quorum? If there are six members of the Council in a meeting and there is a tie on a decision to be taken then what happens?
    Mr Ahiafor 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, probably, the meeting would have to be adjourned to the next --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    We do not have to speculate because it has to be in the law. So, if you want us to do so, then we would need further provisions on it.
    Dr Prempeh 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there are two things that are found in certain Bills or Acts; there is quorate membership and decision-making quorate. In most Acts, they differen- tiate between opening up the meeting and taking decisions with implications.
    Mr Speaker, most times, they differentiate between the number to begin a meeting, which is the quorum, and when a decision, especially financial decisions, are to be made.
    Mr Speaker, that is clearly absent from this Bill -- [Interruption].
    Please, you just came here and I am talking about what has happened in this House. Mr Speaker, in this case, we have not differentiated between quorate decision and decision-making involving financial matters.
    So, it is assumed that every decision that we make in this body must have a certain number. If we say
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:38 p.m.
    Hon Minister, I think that clause 6 (5) says that “matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of the members present and voting and in the event of an equality of votes, the person presiding shall have a casting vote.”
    There is no proposed amendment to that.
    Dr Prempeh 1:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is different from what we are suggesting. If the five members who form a

    quorum can continue the meeting and they can take decisions --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    They are not proposing five.
    Dr Prempeh 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that I am supporting your point and buttressing it further. It means that the five members who have opened the meeting can take a decision, and it is only majority members. He did not say in clause 5 that the majority is the total membership.
    If the meeting has started and they are going to take a decision, it depends on a simple majority, so if five members start a meeting and they take a decision, three can say “yes” and it holds, which even meets further minority. That is the difference.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if I am following the Hon Minister's argument, we should further amend the proposal to have five for quorum but for decision-making, it should go up to a minimum of seven. Then we would have that qualification that they want, but the meeting must start somehow with a small number.
    So provided that for a decision a minimum of seven members must be present --
    Dr Prempeh 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with them, since they have moved tremendously to accept the position.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:48 p.m.
    Who and who?
    Dr Prempeh 1:48 p.m.
    The Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation and the Hon Member for Suhum.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have not spoken on this matter.
    Dr Prempeh 1:48 p.m.
    You have spoken on the sidelines.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    Is it now clear to Hon Members?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was agreeing with the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation, except to say that we can keep subclause (3 to deal with the quorate number for holding meetings, and when we get to clause 5, then we can apply ourselves to ensure that anytime decisions are being taken, a different number be present. Then we can deal with the seven members there.
    So five members for quorum for starting and running meetings, as in Parliament, where 30 per cent can debate issues, but when we have to take a decision then we want to have at least 50 per cent present.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    In other words, instead of us taking six, we should say the quorum for a meeting of the Governing Council is five members, and then at clause 5, where we are talking about decision- taking, we can then increase the number to seven.
    Mr Iddrisu 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in discussing clause 6, we should be mindful of our decision in clause 4, where we have the “Governing body of the Institute”. It is the meetings of that Council.
    I have no difficulty with the five, but five out of eleven means six is in the majority. You do not want to start a meeting with a minimum of five. It should be the majority of six. This is not Parliament; this is a council.
    Mr Speaker, that is why I said in discussing this, we should discuss it with the composition of the Council. The same Hon Minister says four members of the Institute would be part of it even though some of them have changed.
    So instead of five, let us do six. At least, six out of eleven, we have at least a majority of the Council board members present to commence a meeting.
    When you start a meeting, you would have digested matters for a decision, and this is the Chartered Institute of Bankers. Bankers must take their matter seriously.
    Here in Parliament, sometimes, instead of us coming early to form quorum, we do not do it. Respon- sibility is important. I support the principle of a reduced number, but not five. Five out of eleven is low for a quorum. To have a quorum, it means that you must be ready to commence business for the meeting, and to discuss matters for the meeting.
    So let us add one. Six is all right; at least, six out of eleven means more than half of the Council is present to constitute a quorum.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am very surprised that the Hon Minority Leader would want to put the Institute
  • [DR A. A. OSEI
  • Mr Ahiafor 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Bill is telling us that a decision should be by a majority. Owing to the fact that the decision would be by a majority, and given the membership of the Council to be 11, it is possible for six, eight and ten members to be present and be confronted with decision- making.
    That is why the same law is giving the Chairman the casting vote. Once the Chairman has the casting vote, it does not matter if the majority is six.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    Well, I would put the Question on the proposal from the Committee on clause 6(3); “The quorum for a meeting of the Council is five members”.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    Now there has to be a further proposed amendment to subclause 5, on the issue of decision, or do you want us to leave that out?
    Now there is a quorum of five; if then five members are holding the meeting and there is a decision to be taken, and three say “yes”, two say “no”, is the decision taken by three? They have not formed a majority but they say present and voting; “Matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of the members present and voting…”
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:48 p.m.
    Except that --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    No, we have not reached that point.
    Mr Ahiafor 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was trying to draw the attention of the House to the fact that in case of a decision, if three members say “yes” and two members say “no”, there would still be a problem, because that would not amount to a majority decision as stated by the law.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:48 p.m.
    Yes, that is why I am saying there is the need for us to amend it.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I propose that subclause (5) reads as follows;
    “Matters before the Council shall be decided by majority of all the members, and in the event of equality of votes, the person presiding shall have a casting vote”.
    So a decision would be taken by a majority of all members.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    Hon Members, you made an attempt but it is insufficient. We still have to do some rendition. It is either you have to delete the rest of the clause or -- because if you just say “all members of”.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is what I read:
    “Matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of all members and in the event of an equality of votes, the person presiding shall have a casting vote.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    If there is a majority of all members, majority of 11 cannot be equality of votes. What is the majority of 11?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Six.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    So, there cannot be equality of votes.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have not argued against the even number because of the provision here that the Chairman can have a casting vote.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    I am not talking about that; I am talking about the following phrase -- “in the event of equality of votes”. There cannot be equality of votes again because you said “majority of all members”. The majority of all members is six.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, all the members are 11 and majority can be 11, seven, eight, nine or ten. It starts from six. If there are six members present and they vote and it is three each, it is a tie and the Chairman would then have a casting vote.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    The sentence reads:
    “Matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of all the members...”
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is not what is in the Bill now.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    That is your proposal.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Yes; “by a majority of all members”. [Pause.]
    Mr Iddrisu 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have looked at clause 6 very well. We are in this difficulty because of the harm we have done to clause 3. We reduced seven members to five. [Interruption.]
    Clause 6(3) now reads:
    “The quorum for a meeting of the Council is five members”.
    Mr Iddrisu 1:58 p.m.


    Hon Member, in your absence, the Speaker put a Question on it. I had argued.

    You stood up and said that I was not reasoning well because you reduced this Council to Parliament. Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation, that is what you said. That I should appreciate -- [Interruption.] You cannot compare the Governing Board on a Council to the Parliament established under article 93 of the Constitution.

    We are struggling with this subclause of decision of the Council at a meeting because of the amendment you have done to clause 3.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, please address the Chair.
    Mr Iddrisu 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we reduce the quorum -- Out of 11 members, they want the quorum to be five; that is less than the majority number. In my view, that is not a good practice.

    When you start a meeting, what is its essence? When you start a meeting, ultimately, you deliberate to arrive at

    a decision so why do you want to start when you do not have the minimum number?
    Mr Richard M. Quashigah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe that this is not the first time that this House is deliberating on a similar Bill. In the Chartered Institute of Taxation Bill, which is now an Act, we have same clauses in it. With the Taxation Act, it says the quorum at a meeting of the Council is six members out of 11. So why would we now change it in respect of the Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill?
    To a large extent, they are virtually about the same except that these are two different bodies. Since I came to this House, there has always been reference to consistency so why would we not maintain the number six just as it is with the Taxation Act so that we can have that consistency that we have been talking about?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    Hon Members, having regard to the state of Business before the House, I direct that Sitting be held outside the prescribed period.
    [Pause.] Hon Members, is it possible to
    have this proposed amendment to subclause(5) in the following words?
    “Matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of the entire membership of the Council and in the event of an equality of votes, the person presiding shall have a casting vote.”
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    Hon Member for Suhum, what is your objection?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this sounds like what I said the first time. This means that for any decision to be taken by the Council, there needs to be at least six votes in support of it. [Interruption.]
    Mr Speaker, kindly read the rendition again.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:58 p.m.
    I would go over it again.
    “Matters before the Council shall be decided by a majority of the entire membership of the Council and in the event of an equality of votes, the person presiding shall have a casting vote.”
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is a world of difference between the English that is learnt and indeed spoken at Nadowli Local Authority Middle School and Suhum Local Authority Middle School. [Laughter.] Mr Speaker, we have been discussing this and my Hon Colleague has not migrated to where we are.
    Listen to the meaning of the Committee of the Whole. It means a Committee composed of the whole body of the Members of Parliament. Mr Speaker, in the reviewed one, we
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    Hon Member for Suhum, I think you would now accept the explanation or would you want us to use the “King James English”?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is the same as I proposed much earlier and because of your initial -- [Interruption.] --
    Mr Quashigah 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just want to seek a little education or clarity. If we say, “the entire members of the Council” and then, we say “the Council shall”, what really is the difference?
    My challenge is, does the Council at certain times take a decision based on just a section or just a group of the members of the Council? Or when we say, “the Council”, is it in reference to the entire membership of the Council? I just want some clarity.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    There was an earlier decision on quorum which restricted the number to five members. So, we want to go
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.


    over that. It meant that that quorum of five cannot take a decision.

    And that is how we talk about the entire members, but the five members who are sitting represent the Council, that is the Council at a meeting. So to clarify the issues, we just say the entire membership.
    Mr Ahiafor 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am also seeking for clarity. My question may sound rhetorical but it is not a rhetorical question.
    Assuming five members formed the quorum and they have eliberated on an issue and it gets to a point where a decision is supposed to be taken, and it is still five members present, at that point, would they have to stop and adjourn the meeting?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    We have done it a number of times here.
    Mr Ahiafor 2:08 a.m.
    Very well.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 6 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    Hon Members, we would suspend further consideration of this Bill and then move on to another item on the Order Paper.
    Hon Majority Leader, any indication?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe we could now go to Motion listed as item number 6.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    Hon Members, item numbered 6 -- Motion. Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80(1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Loan Facility Agreement amongst the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ING Bank (a branch of ING- DIBA AG Deutsche Bank AG) Hong Kong Branch [as Original Lenders, Arrangers and Coordinators], ING Bank N.V. (as Agent), and ING Bank N.V., Beijing Branch (as ECA Agent) for an amount of one hundred and twenty-three million, seven hundred and fifty-six thousand, seven hundred and seventy-four euros and fifteen cents (€123,756,774.15) to finance the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana may be moved today.
    . Dr Nana A. Afriye: Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:08 a.m.
    Hon Members, we move on to item numbered 7, Motion. Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    MOTIONS 2:08 a.m.

    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 2:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Loan Facility Agreement amongst the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ING Bank (a branch of ING- DIBA AG Deutsche Bank AG) Hong Kong Branch [as Original Lenders, Arrangers and Coordinators], ING Bank N.V. (as Agent), and ING Bank N.V., Beijing Branch (as ECA Agent) for an amount of one hundred and twenty-three million, seven hundred and fifty-six thousand, seven hundred and seventy-four euros and fifteen Cents (€123,756,774.15) to finance the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
    And in so doing, I present your Committee's Report.
    Introduction
    The Loan Facility Agreement amongst the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ING Bank (a branch of ING-DIBA AG Deutsche Bank AG) Hong Kong Branch [as Original Lenders, Arrangers and Coordinators], ING Bank N. V. (as Agent), and ING Bank N.V., Beijing Branch (as ECA Agent) for an amount of one hundred and twenty-three million, seven hundred and fifty-six thousand, seven hundred and seventy-four euros and fifteen cents (123,756,774.15) to finance the Overall Upgrading and Moder- nisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana was presented to the House on Tuesday, 12th March, 2019, by the Hon Deputy Minister for Finance, Mrs Abena Osei-Asare, on behalf of the Minister for Finance.
    Pursuant to article 103 of the 1992 Constitution and Orders 169 and 171 of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Committee on Finance for consideration and report.
    The Committee subsequently met and discussed the Agreement with the Minister for Education, Hon Dr Matthew Opoku-Prempeh, a Deputy Minister for Finance, Hon Mrs Abena Osei-Asare, as well as officials from the Ministries of Finance and Education. Also, in attendance were the heads of the National Vocational and Technical Institutes (NVTI) and the Council for Technical and Vocational Education and Training
    (COTVET).
    The Committee hereby submits its Report to the House pursuant to Order 161 of the Standing Orders of the House
    The Committee is grateful to the above-mentioned Hon Minister, Deputy Minister and Officials for attending upon the Committee.
    References
    The Committee referred to and was guided by the following documents inter alia during its deliberations on the Agreement.
    The n1992 Constitution of the Republic of Ghana;
    The Standing Orders of the Parliament of Ghana; and
    The Public Financial Management Act of 2016 (Act 921)
    Background
    The physical infrastructure and equipment of the existing Technical and Vocational Institutions are presently in a poor state. There is a compelling need to reverse the trend of disintegrating infrastructure.
    In line with Government's commitment to tackle youth unemploymentg, programmes are now being designed dto ensure that the youth are better equipped with employable skills to match the requirements of industry in a lower middle income and nascent oil economy.
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 2:08 a.m.


    The present project is in accordance with Government's commitment to reform the Technical and Vocational Education & Training system which has wide social and economic benefits, especially to the youth.

    The project is designed to upgrade and revamp vocational training infrastructure in all 34 centres across the country in all the twenty-six (26) trades with world-class training equipment, content, curriculum and infrastructure including hostels, classrooms and workshops.

    The project is expected to result in the upgrading and revamping of vocational training infrastructure to help bridge the skills gap of the youth of Ghana.

    The integrated approach will improve the quality of the Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVET) system across the entire spectrum and result in empowering the youth of Ghana.

    Project Objective

    The objective of the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana (OUMVESG) Project is to create a sustainable, quality-oriented vocational education system that will build a highly efficient skilled society ultimately producing highly trained manpower year after year, enhancing the vast development activities and initiatives being introduced by the Government of Ghana.

    The eight (8) specific key objectives of the Project are:

    i.Improving youth employ-ment, especially in the rural areas;

    ii. Expanding equitable access in public TVET institutions targeting more females and the rural poor;

    iii.Improving relevance and quality of TVET delivery;

    iv.Building technical and management capacity of NVTI and other skills training centres;

    v. Equipping the youth with entrepreneurship skills;

    vi. Adopting the cooperative approach to skills training for the youth to create their own jobs;

    vii. Retraining current workers who have skill gaps; and

    viii. Imbuing in master craftsmen the aptitude for productivity and credibility.

    Terms and Conditions of the Loan

    The Loan Agreement covers two facilities, the Sinosure Guranteed Facility and a Tied Commercial Facility.

    The terms and conditions are as follows:
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 2:08 a.m.


    A. Sinosure Guaranteed Facility
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 2:08 a.m.


    Project Components

    The Project is divided into ten (10) components with the associated costs as follows:

    Observations

    Resolving Youth Unemployment

    The Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana Project for which the present loan facility is being contracted will support the rehabilitation, retooling, modernisation and capacity building of the NVTI Training Centres to help resolve the challenges of youth unemployment in the country. The project accords with Government's priority of emphasising the enhancement of the competi- tiveness of goods and services produced in the country and ensuring an improved production of human capital for growth and poverty reduction.

    Need to Retool the NVTIs

    The Committee noted that the NVTI and other competency-based training institutes under the Ministry of Education provide demand-driven employable skills to enhance the employability and income generating capacity of those predominantly in the 15-24 age bracket who are mostly basic and secondary school leavers.

    These institutes provide the skills training through apprenticeship, master craftsmanship, testing and career development. They, however have dilapidated infrastructure with obsolete tools and equipment. Indeed, the last time some of these institutions were retooled was as far back as 1977, that is some 42 years ago.
    SPACE FOR APPENDIX PAGE 2:08 a.m.

    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:18 a.m.
    Yes, any seconder?
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:18 a.m.
    Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation, are you the one going to second the Motion? [Interruption.] Should he hold his peace?
    Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation (Dr Anthony A. Osei) 2:18 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion. [Interruption.] I do not know why my Hon good Friend is rushing to talk about education. We are talking about the terms and conditions of the loan.
    Mr Speaker, we commend the Ministry of Education for seeking this loan to upgrade all these institutions which have been around for a while. Since we would be dealing with the contract agreement later, I just want to limit myself to the terms and conditions.
    As the Hon Chairman said, you would notice that there is always a big difference between the first part of the loan and the tied commercial facility. The tied commercial facility is usually a bit more expensive than the first part.
    That is why I want the Hon Chairman to tell us what the six-month Eurobond is. My understanding is that it is negative, but it is almost zero. So, what it means is that when you look at the interest rate for the first facility, you are talking about approximately
    two per cent and when you look at the commercial loan, you are talking about approximately 5.7 per cent, a differential of three. So, it tells us that the commercial facilities are always more expensive.
    Mr Speaker, for education and health, it is worthwhile contracting these commercial loans because the benefits last a long time. Once we get our young people working with such improved facilities, it would enhance the human resource capacity of the country.
    On page 6, you would notice that item numbered 2 has the largest sum, that is €68,150,305, which is for re- tooling of all the 34 vocational training institutions. So it would be expended on equipment with which the students would have hands-on experience with.
    Mr Speaker, with those few words, I urge Hon Members to support the Motion. Thank you.
    Question proposed.
    Minority Leader (Mr Haruna Iddrisu) 2:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to speak in support of the Motion and to note that this Administration has moved matters relating to vocational and technical education to the Ministry of Education. In my view, that is appropriate.
    I supervised the Vocational Training Institute as the former Minister for Employment and Labour Relations. My first recommendation to the Hon Minister for Education would be that once he gets this
    approval and there is a Project Implementation Committee, it would be prudent and helpful if he engaged and included the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations to play a certain role.
    We need to understand the synergy of understanding and dealing with matters of employability within the larger policy of education and dealing with the role of the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations. The 34 vocational training institutes are doing pretty well.
    In fact, the Hon Deputy Minister for Works and Housing, who is now being moved, my Yamfo Colleague -- I had to visit one of the vocational training centres in her constituency. I was very well received by the chiefs and people of the area. What was instructive was the quality of the meals that were provided by those who were engaged in catering. I also visited a number of them in the Upper East and Upper West Regions.
    I would encourage the Hon Minister and his team to visit Tamale because if they drive through the industrial area, where the Savannah Accelerated Development Authority (SADA) is located, they would see just by the road, a signboard referring to a vocational training institute which is in a very deplorable state. You cannot accept it as a training institute. I am sure that the Hon Chairman of the Committee on Education knows what I am talking about.
    I just got back from the constituency and when you get to the
    industrial area in Tamale -- I know that St. Mary is included -- [Interruption.] The Northern Development Authority which replaced SADA -- The signboard that I am referring to has not been changed.
    I would like to refer Hon Members to the Appendix which is attached. It says 10 regional offices, five informal apprenticeship offices, 34 vocational training centres -- Afienya was instructive. When I visited the Afienya Vocational Training Institute, I realised that they could do better with carpentry and joinery. There were no equipment with which they could train. Even their catering department was lacking in many respects.
    Mr Speaker, if we want to address the unemployment in our country, we need to have an understanding of two categories of unemployed youth in Ghana -- The informal uneducated and the formal educated. We cannot have the same strategy for different categories of unemployed people.
    There is a large pool of young people who have not gone to school or who have suffered a shortcut to their education, ending at Senior High School or Junior High School. They meritoriously are strongly recommended for interventions such as these, so that they could acquire some skills.

    The Hon Minister could check from his records, there was an Africa Development Bank (AfDB) support

    of almost US$120 million -- I hope I got it right -- which was to support the Dabokpa Technical Institute in my constituency, the Tamale South Constituency, Ada in the Greater Accra Region and some others. This loan is dedicated to the 34 vocational training institutions and it would expand access in terms of,. particularly, young girls who want to undertake a particular trade.

    We would look at the contract as that would come from the Committee on Education. With this one, we are just exercising our mandate as the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation wants to limit us -- he should limit his debate to article 181 of the Constitution, but once it is a Report of a Committee, we are free to dance the parameters of the Report in terms of that.

    We know that they are borrowing more than what is required and I am sure the cost is even much more expensive than it was. So I was engaged in some conversation and discussion relative to many of these matters.

    I would want to recognise that it is a good decision that Government has harmonised technical and vocational education to be under the supervision of the Hon Minister of Education, but we would encourage him to work with the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations.

    Our schools still continue to produce persons with non- employable skills but technical and
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:28 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Majority Leader (Osei Kyei- Mensah-Bonsu) 2:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would first want to enquire from the Hon Minister for Education that in the appendix, I see Kumasi VTI and I would want to know where Kumasi VTI is -- is it the one at Suame? [Interruption.]
    It is Kumasi NVTI. I do not know Kumasi VTI anywhere and I just want to be sure. [Interruption]That is coming to Suame [Laughter.] Mr Speaker, I want a confirmation from the Hon Minister. Because the other one at Hemang Boho is a new creation which was pushed by a man called Abeyie -- that the Hon Minority Leader knows so much.
    It is a new creation which was purpose-driven. That one was done at the instance of the National
    Democratic Congress (NDC) regional organiser.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:28 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I am not getting your submission. You seem to be in a conversation with the Hon Minority Leader.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just wanted clarification from the Hon Minister for Education whether the “Kumasi VTI” is, indeed, the Suame NVTI. This is because the “Suame'' is not there.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:28 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, is it item numbered 12 on the appendix; “Kumasi VTI''; And did you say there is nothing like that?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:28 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker. It is supposed to be “NVTI” which is situated at Suame. I just wanted further clarification from the Hon Minister whether it is the same institution before I continue.
    Dr Prempeh 2:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, before the Hon Majority Leader continues, Suame was an integral part of Kumasi when this was proposed under his leadership. [Interruption.] Yes, it is a point of information.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to associate myself with what we are doing today, because we all do know that technical and vocational training education has, for a very long time been the poor cousins of institutions
    that come directly under the Ministry of Education.
    That has been like that because where they belonged initially, the Ministry for Employment and Social Welfare at the time -- the Ministry itself was orphaned and because of that the vocational training institutes were all afflicted with poverty and the facilities there struggled to serve the purpose for which they were procured.
    All 34 vocational training institutions in the country have been struggling and it is a reason that, at a point in time, I made a personal appeal to the then administrator of the GETFund that he should come to the rescue of Suame NVTI. Indeed, Mr Banahene who was there at the time, started the enterprise which was continued by Mr Sam Gabba and they executed it. That then stood the Suame NVTI in a very good set up as compared to the other institutions.
    Mr Speaker, the vocational training institutes were all provided with facilities as far back as 1970 under Dr Busia's Administration, but thereafter, they have all been neglected. The printing presses that were sent there are non-functional because today, the litho machines are no longer in use any way. The engine reboring machines that were procured for them at the time have remained and the students have no use for them.
    Mr Speaker, it is important that the Ministry of Education has assumed control for the technical and vocational training institutes and that
    Dr A. A. Osei 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think it is cents.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    You think or you know? [Laughter.]
    Dr A. A. Osei 2:38 p.m.
    It is cents.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, so I am saying that we now have a huge amount --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, what is it you are not sure about?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am not sure about the proper name for the 15 --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    It is cents.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you are more senior and so I would want to believe you.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    “Senior” in the House or “senior” in age? [Laughter.]
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, at times, you say that you are senior to me in age. Even though when I went into the archives, I saw that I am a few months older than you, you have been insisting that you are older than me. Who am I to challenge you? [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    It is because you do not know when you were born and so you are just -- [Laughter.]
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, for the records, I was born on the 3rd of February, 1957; I came a few days before independence. At times, I hear you say that you came after independence, yet you insist that you came before me.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, is that part of the Motion before you? [Laughter.]
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree it is not part of the Motion.
    Mr Speaker, so I believe that we are doing a good service to ourselves as a country and we should make progress on these lines. I believe the 34 vocational institutions, if we are to spread them out, on the average, we are not going to have more than €4 million and that amount would not do much. However, I would say that it is a useful beginning and let us build on that to provide our youth with the necessary training that they require.
    Mr Speaker, we are talking about exploiting our iron ore reserves to turn them into steel to engage in real manufacturing enterprise. We require people with vocational and technical training to be able to service the system.
    We should begin now to prepare our people, so that when we come to implementing fully the One District, One Factory regime, we would not be found wanting in servicing the facilities that go along with it. [Interruption.] The One District, One Factory has come to stay.
    Mr Speaker, as I have been insisting, the steel factory should not leave the enclave of Yendi because the exploitation is going to happen at Cheni. If it does happen, it would be a game changer for the northern economy. We should insist that we have it there, so that the people of the northern regions would also know that they belong to a family called Ghana.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Members, I would put the Question.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would move to item numbered 8 -- Resolution.
    The Hon Deputy Minister for Finance is here. I crave your indulgence and that of my Hon Colleague so that he could hold the fort for the Hon Minister for Finance.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister for and on behalf of the Minister for Finance?
    RESOLUTION 2:38 p.m.

    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 2:38 p.m.

    HEREBY RESOLVES AS 2:38 p.m.

    Mr Haruna Iddrisu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, any direction?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, item numbered 9 on the Order Paper.
    MOTIONS 2:38 p.m.

    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80(1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Committee on Education on the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering company limited for an amount of one Hundred and seventeen million, eighty-eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana may be moved today.
    Mr Peter Nortsu-Kotoe 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to indulge the Chairman of the Committee to move item numbered 12 together with item numbered 9 since the two relate to the same thing.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Hon Members, the Chairman is being asked to move the Motion again because we have one Report on both items. So he would move the two -- items numbered 9 and 12; both are procedural Motions.
    Suspension of Standing Order 80 (1)
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80(1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Committee on Education on the Amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for the Overall Upgrading and Moder- nisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana may be moved today.
    Mr Peter Nortsu-Kotoe 2:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:38 p.m.
    Item numbered 10; I am sure it would be going with item numbered 13. So, items numbered 10 and 13 to be moved together.
    MOTIONS 2:38 p.m.

    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Committee on Education on the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for an amount of one hundred and seventeen million, eighty-eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
    That this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Committee on Education on the Amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for the Overall Upgrading and Moder- nisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
    Mr Speaker, in so doing, I beg to present your Committee's Report.

    Introduction

    The underlisted Agreements were laid in Parliament by the Hon Minister for Education, Dr Matthew Opoku Prempeh, on Tuesday, 12th March,

    2019:

    i. Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represen- ted by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUM EC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company on hundred and seventeen million, eighty-eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three Euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Voca-

    tional Education System in Ghana.

    ii. Amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.

    The Agreements were sub- sequently referred to the Committee on Education for consideration and report. This was in accordance with Order 186 of the Standing Orders of the House.

    Deliberations

    The Hon Minister for Education, Dr Matthew Opoku Prempeh, the Executive Director of the Council for Technical and Vocational Education and Training (COTVET), Mr Fred Kyei Asamoah, and officials of the Ministry of Education attended upon the Committee to assist in its deliberations.

    The Committee is grateful to the Hon Minister and his technical team for attending upon the Committee.

    The Committee also expresses its appreciation to the Leadership of the Finance Committee of Parliament for
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:48 p.m.


    existing curriculum of National Vocational Training Institute of Ghana by pro- viding Competency Based Training (CBT).

    e. Providing appropriate training for the teachers and the trainers from the 34 Vocational Training Institutes.

    f. Deploying a Project Mana- gement Team for the management of the Project over the execution period.

    g. Constructing two (2) new centres for foundry and machining in Accra and Kumasi.

    h. Upgrading the Opportunities Industrialisation Centre Ghana (OICG) and its Head Office in Accra.

    Project Value Breakdown

    i. The Contract Price of the Project is €117,088,323.00 excluding tax, between the Ministry of Education and a consortium of P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited in Malta) and

    SUMEC.

    ii. The total facility amount, which is €123,756,774.15, is between the Republic of Ghana represented by the Ministry of Finance and ING Bank.

    iii.The Sinosure insurance premium for the Sinosure guaranteed facility is

    €6,668,451.15.

    Project Implementation Period

    The Project has a two-year tenure (24 months). In accordance with the Project Implementation Schedule, the Project is expected to commence in June, 2019 and end in June, 2021.

    Highlights of the Contract Agreement

    The Contract Agreement is made up of 22 clauses. Clause 1 deals with definitions and interpretation. The purpose, scope and phasing of the Project are dealt with under clause 2. Commencement date, conditions precedent, appointment of a Consortium and scope of work, and implementation of the Project are also dealt with under clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 respectively.

    Clauses 7, 8, 9 10 and 11 provide for the details of completion of the Project and Term of Contract, contract price and payment mechanism, obligations of the Consortium, obligations of GoG, and inspection and certificate of acceptance respectively.

    Clause 12 makes provision for representations and warranties while Clause 13 deals with defects liability and indemnity. Clauses 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 covers the passing of title and risk, termination of contract, arbitration, governing law, notices and confidentiality. Clauses 20, 21 and 22

    deals with force majeure events, assignment and miscellaneous respectively.

    Observations and Recommen- dations

    Capacity of the Consortium to Perform.

    The Committee was informed that the Partners forming the Consortium, PCE and SUMEC are reputable companies with the requisite capacity and capability to carry out their respective obligations under the Agreement.

    P.C. Education Africa Ventures (PCE), a global education company, operating in various countries across the world, has been at the forefront of partnering with governments to help transform their educational systems as well as creating a human capital capable of competing in the technologically driven global environment. PCE has also been successful in helping various governments to achieve e-Learning solutions in government-run schools. Again, they have the expertise in the management of special education needs, development of interventions for out-of-school children and provision of skills training.

    The Committee further noted that PCE has been working with various governments to improve the teaching and administrative skills of vocational education, innovation through technology and optimum integration

    between ICT and Digital Labs, teacher training, vocational training and English language labs to ensure accelerated growth programmes.

    SUMEC, on the other hand, is one of the core enterprises of the China National Machinery Industry Corporation (SINOMACH), and a large scale state-owned group under the supervision of the State Assets Supervision and Administration Commission. SUMEC is a modern service manufacturing group with a focus on trade and service, engineering contracting and investment development.

    With this strong background, the Committee is hopeful that the Consortium would be able to effectively and efficiently carry out the respective obligations as stipulated in the contract. In this regard, the Committee urges the Ministry of Education as well as the beneficiary institutions to provide the needed assistance and supervision to ensure that the works and services are carried out and delivered according to specifications.

    Feasibility Studies

    The Committee observed that in order to do away with conjecture and ensure comprehensive and nation- wide coverage of the interventions, the Consortium's team of experts conducted a detailed primary and secondary research including extensive field visits across several vocational training centres in the country. They also met with the Heads
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:48 p.m.


    of the various Vocational Training Institutes and discussed the skills training requirements.

    It is the expectation of the Committee that upon the successful execution of the contract, the target group, who are mainly the youth, would be equipped with the requisite industry-specific skills required for the job market.

    The Amendment Agreement

    The Committee noted that on the 28th of September, 2018, the Ministry of Education signed an Amendment Agreement to the Original Contract
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:48 p.m.
    Clauses 2.2 and 5.3 of the Original Agreement provided that the Project would be initiated and implemented in two (2) phases in accordance with the respective Implementation Schedules as summarised below:
    Summary of Implementation Schedule of phases 1 and 2

    However, in the Amendment Agreement, GoG consented and authorised the Consortium to commence both phases of the Project simultaneously. Accordingly, all obligations of the Parties in relation to phases 1 and 2 shall commence concurrently and run simultaneously.

    Clauses 5.4 (b) and 5.5 (b) of the Original Agreement indicate among others that advance payments for phases 1 and 2 of the Project would be made in the United States dollars. With the Amendment Agreement, it is provided that all payments shall be made in euros.

    Further, clause 7.1 of the Original Agreement provided for different periods for the commencement and completion date of phases 1 and 2 of the Project. However, in the Amendment Agreement both phases shall commence concurrently and run simultaneously.

    While clause 8 of the Original Contract Agreement pegged the

    Contract Price of the project as US$131,657,198, the Amendment Agreement revised the Contract Price from US$131,657,198 to €117,088,323. The Amendment Agreement revised the Contract Price from US$131,657,198 to

    €117,088,323.

    The breakdown of the revised Contract Price is shown in the Table below:

    Finally, Clause 9 (c) of the Original Contract Agreement provided for the issuance of a performance guarantee in phases by the Consortium. The performance guaraantee ceases to be valid in the event of default by the Consortium in accordance with Clause 15.2(b) which deals with termination of contract. In the Amendment

    Agreement, clause 9(c) has been revised to indicate that in the event of default, the Consortium may present and submit a revised performance guarantee.

    Generally, the Amendment Agreement seeks to give effect to the revised understanding between the Parties.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 2:48 p.m.


    Strategic Objective for Rev- amping NVTL centres

    The Committee was informed that though the NVTI and other training institutions under the Ministry of Education are required to provide demand-driven employable skills to enhance the employability and income generating capabilities of the youth, particularly those in the 15-24 age bracket through competence-based apprenticeship, master craftsmanship, testing and career development, almost all the institutions have dilapidated infrastrucure with obsolete tools and equipment.

    The last re-tooling for some of the institutions took place as far back as 1997. The Project will accordingly support the rehabilitation, re-tooling, modernisation and capacity building of the NVTI Centres.

    The Committee is hopeful that the project objectives, which are aligned with Government priorities of enhancing the employability and competitiveness of the youth, would eventually help to resolve the challenge of youth unemployment in the country.

    Value for Money Audit

    The Committee sought to find out whether value for money assessment was carried out on the Contract?

    The Committee was informed that value for money assessment is being conducted by Crown Agents.

    The Committee was assured that the assessment would be completed in due course.

    Conclusion

    The Committee has thoroughly examined the Contract Agreement and the Supplementary Contract between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), for the overall upgrading and modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.

    The Committee notes with satisfaction that the Project, when completed, will result in the upgrading and revamping of vocational training infrastructure (hostel, classrooms and workshops), at the Head Office, Regional Offices and Apprenticeship Offices across the country. This would create world-class training facilities that would be linked to the current job market demands.

    Accordingly, the Committee recommends to the House to adopt its Report, and in accordance with article 181(5) of the 1992

    Constitution of the Republic of Ghana, approve the following:

    i.Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment and Engineering Company Limited for an amount of one hundred and seventeen million, eighty- eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and

    Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.

    ii. Amendment to the Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.

    Respectfully submitted.
    Mr Peter Nortsu-Kotoe (NDC-- Akatsi North) 2:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion and, in doing so, I would want to make a few comments.
    Vocational Education for some time now has been receiving some attention all over the country because we believe strongly that not everybody could take up a white collar job. There is the need to develop skills that all Ghanaians have. It is for this reason that this Agreement is being approved so that we could give adequate training to our youth.
    Mr Speaker, it is true that our vocational training institutions lack a number of tools and equipment to operate with. If we visit some of the schools, we would realise that they have obsolete equipment which are
    out of tune with the realities of the day. These Agreements to retool the institutions is very important.
    Mr Speaker, we have also observed over the time that there is the need to train instructors for these modern equipment that would be provided. Few years ago, technical universities were provided with some equipment only to discover that instructors to operate these equipment were not there.
    These equipment had to lie down for a very long time for people to be trained to operate them. It is our hope that, this time, adequate preparations would be made to retrain the instructors so that they can use the equipment very well.
    Mr Speaker, so also is the vehicles that would be provided. Many a time
    when these vehicles are provided, the schools are not provided with the funds to run them.
    The vehicles would be there but their running becomes a problem. We hope that the Ministry of Education would make adequate allocation of funds to these institutions so that the vehicles do not become white elephants but they could be useful to the institutions for which they are being procured.
    It is our hope that the management of these institutions would make sure that the projects are delivered on time so that we could retrain our youth for gainful employments.
    Mr Speaker, as it stands now, some of the finest artisans we have are from our neighbouring countries. That is not helping us. The move to retool the institutions and retrain the students and the youth should be pursued vigorously to have well trained artisans to help in the development of the country.
    Mr Speaker, with these few words, I second the Motion.
    Question proposed. Dr Clement A. Apaak (NDC-
    Builsa South): Mr Speaker, I thank you and rise to support the Motion. In doing so, I would make one or two observations.
    Mr Speaker, in going through the Report of the Committee on Education, I noticed with great
    excitement that indeed the consortium had taken it upon itself to conduct a feasibility study on the basis of which the proposals that have been made are today here before us to adopt.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:48 p.m.
    Sorry, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Yes?
    Mr Siaka 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, item numbered 13 on page 8, line 2, should be “Addendum to the Contract” and not “Amendment”. Consequentially, in the Report, it should be “addendum” and not “amendment”.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Hon Members, our attention has been drawn to item numbered 13, the Motion that has just been moved by the Hon Chairman; in line 2, instead of “Amendment”, we are to delete and insert “Addendum”.
    Hon Member, continue.
    Dr Apaak 2:58 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I expressed my excitement regarding the feasibility study that was conducted nationwide. It is, indeed, my belief, as it is for the rest of us, that at the end of this project, clearly, our many young people who do not have the needed
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, with your recent amendment, it looks like we have to follow suit with the amendment in the Report because you used “amendment” and not “addendum”. It is not just the wording of the Motion, but you also used “amendment” in your Report.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe that we should have both words because some need to be amended, just as you have drawn our attention - clauses 2.2, 5.3, 5.4, 5.5, 7.1, 8.0 and 9(c) have been amended to deal with the scope of work, the phasing, commencement date, completion of project and the term of the contract.
    Mr Speaker, but it also adds to the scope of works, which is being referred to as addendum or supplementary. So perhaps we could maintain the two words, which are “amendment” and “supplement”, because there is an aspect that adds on completely to what was initially envisaged. We could perhaps maintain the two terminologies -- “amendment” and “supplement”.
    Dr Prempeh 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, generally, whether it is an addendum or supplement, “amendment” technically covers it all. I think that if we keep “amendment”, it covers “supplement” as well.
    Mr Speaker, as the Hon Majority Leader rightly said, there are amendments and a supplement to the previous Agreement, and the best way to cover both is an amendment.
    So if he considers same, he may agree that the Committee was not, probably, wrong to use “amendment” to cover both. This is because technically, the foundries, machines and the tools that have been added is an amendment to the previous Agreement, which is the new one the Hon Majority Leader called “supplement”.
    The clauses they have changed because the contract price was in United States dollars,so they have been changed to euros, and they have been reviewed. That is also an amendment.
    Mr Speaker, I would defer to your good Hon Self, with all the experience that you have had here, that the
    supplement and his amendment are both amendments to the original Agreement. If you so desire, we would stick to what the Committee, the Report and the Order Paper says and move on.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Well, I just went through the Report and saw that “amendment” has been used throughout. I think it covers the additions. We have also done that even when we amended Bills; when we add a new one, it is still part of the amendment.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, technically, that is right. The difficulty is that we are considering the two Contract Agreements at the same time. If indeed, it is an amended Contract Agreement, so to speak, then the first one should not even appear. Now, we are considering the two together because it is deemed to supplement the original.
    Either way, there is a very minor distinction, so - [Interruption.] The two together is the amended contract. That was why we were to consider the first and second ones separately. Otherwise, the first one should have been in the belly of the second. That is the difficulty.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Well, we are taking the Motions together because we have been given one Report on both, and it is very clear in its title. So I would still want us to
    go by the wording of the Report - “Amendment”. There is a Contract Agreement between the Government -- in the amendment, we have a Contract Agreement between the Government and the same group. So we are doing them together as one. We can still go by “amendment”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, to the extent that this deliberation had really generated this distinction, I am comfortable with it. Otherwise, if I want to further pursue it -- because it has come from your Chair, if I disagree, I may have to file a Motion that has to be admitted, and that would be a difficulty for me. Once it has generated this distinction and we all appreciate it, we can live with it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker has not made a ruling, given a directive, nor taken a decision. So you do not need to come by a substantive Motion to disagree with a position that is being expressed by Mr Speaker. I want to make that clear. It is just part of a guide to the House as we go on with the deliberations.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I appreciate it; except to recognise that if some guidance is not solicited, it may become a testament. [Laughter.] So we would live with your guidance.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:58 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, you know Mr Speaker does not take decisions for the House; not at all. Even though he is called Mr Speaker, he does not speak because he is not to participate in the debate.

    So do not be gagged by any - I have not taken any decision.

    If you still want to pursue it, why not? Because the Table Office would have to properly draft the Resolution and that would crop up at the implementation stage. So, we would need to get the actual phraseology right so that it would be drafted properly for the attention of the agencies that would implement this so that they could be guided by those terms.

    So, if it is amended or supple- mented, then we could take both, but from what you have said so far, for me, I would take it that both situations are amendments to the original agreement. If that is the position of the House then we would take it as an amendment -- with my guidance.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would happily indulge your guidance. [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    Hon Members, we would move to the consequential Resolutions. Hon Minister for Education?
    Dr Prempeh 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, --
    rose
    Dr Prempeh 3:08 p.m.
    The Question has been put and the Motion has been adopted.
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I did not hear you put the Question because there is a matter that needs explanation. My Hon Friend talked about value for money and we are told that the amount was US$131 million but it has now come --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    Hon Minister, we have not moved the Resolution yet.
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you have not put the Question on the Motion.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    I have done that.
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is an important matter that needs to be clarified.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    Please could you bring it up for clarification when the Resolution is moved? You would not be out of time.
    Hon Minister for Education, you may move Resolutions numbered 11 and 14 on the Order Paper.
    Dr Prempeh 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, before I move for the adoption of the Resolution, the third and fourth line under paragraph 2 of Resolution 11 should read “Minister responsible for Education” and not “Minister responsible for Roads and Highways”; and same should be done for paragraph 2 of Resolution numbered 14.
    Mr Speaker, today, we are seeing the devil everywhere but this one is the printers devil.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was trying to come to terms with the amendment that the Hon Minister for Education moved but I think that the Table Office led by Mr Djietror did cut and paste --
    Mr Opare-Ansah 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman of the Finance Committee knows very well that he does not work at the Table Office and he has no way to know who led the team that did this work for him to make the pronouncement that the Table Office led by Mr Djietror -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Speaker, he cannot be sure that in this particular enterprise it was led by Mr Djietror and that is why we do not mention names here. Mr Djietror cannot have --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    Hon Members, the business before the House is led by the Hon Minister in charge of Government Business and that is the Hon Majority Leader. [Laughter.]

    Hon Members, you have the amendments -- by the printer's devil instead of Minister responsible for

    Education, it appeared as the Minister responsible for Roads and Highways. So, it is accordingly amended.

    Hon Minister, you may go on.
    RESOLUTIONS 3:08 p.m.

    Minister for Education (Dr Matthew O. Prempeh) 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that
    WHEREAS by the provisions of article 181(5) of the Constitution the terms and conditions of any international business or economic transaction to which the Government of Ghana is a party shall not come into operation unless the said terms and conditions have been laid before Parliament and approved by Parliament by a Resolution supported by the votes of a majority of all Members of Parliament;
    PURSUANT to the provisions of the said article 181(5) of the Constitution, and at the request of the Government of Ghana acting
    Minister for Education (Dr Matthew O. Prempeh) 3:08 p.m.


    through the Minister responsible for Education, there has been laid before Parliament the terms and conditions of a Contract Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ghana (represented by the Ministry of Education) and P.C. Education Africa Ventures (a subsidiary of Planetcore Education Holding Limited of Malta), and SUMEC Complete Equipment & Engineering Company Limited for an amount of one hundred and seventeen million, eighty-eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-three euros (€117,088,323.00) for the Overall Upgrading and Modernisation of the Vocational Education System in Ghana.
    THIS HONOURABLE 3:08 p.m.

    HOUSE HEREBY RE- 3:08 p.m.

    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Stevens Siaka) 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:08 p.m.
    The Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation had a point.
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Resolution is alright but you arrested me on a point of clarification that I sought after. The Report talked about revising the price from US$131 million to €117 million but what we do not know is whether it is savings or an increase.
    This is because if it is not read carefully then we may think that US$131 million is still €117 million. So, if the Hon Chairman may clarify it for us for the record that the revision represents savings or increase or reduction.
    Mr Speaker, it is on page 3 of the Report.
    Dr Prempeh 3:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we moved this document -- [Inter- ruption.]
    He is asking for clarification and the Speaker has allowed it.
    Mr Speaker, the initial contract price was US$139 million -- [Interruption] No, it was US$139 million and it was reduced to US$131 million; yes.
    I have provided all those documentations.
    Mr Speaker, we did the renegotiations and made savings and added on to the foundries and the machines to make it -- it was not part of the original contract and that is why we have come with the amendments.

    So was the savings done with our creed? At the end of the day, it moved from 139 to 131.

    Mr Speaker, in the meantime, prices have changed and the contract that was initially pegged in dollars, when the funding resurfaced -- because the Hon Finance Minister initially said they should split it into two -- that is why there was phase 1 and phase 2.

    When they split it and they brought the financing, the Ministry of Finance said they should go and bring financing for the whole project and they can do it. In the meantime, it moved from dollar -- and the dollar and the euro rates are not stagnant. That is why now if you calculate it, it would end up around US$132 million, because the euro has been strengthened even more than the dollar. Internationally, the dollar price has fallen by about 15 or 20 per cent.

    Mr Speaker, it is not because of that savings that we are here, but on the face of it, that contract has been improved with the additional works -- three OICs, the headquarters of NVTI, the two foundries and two machine - making tools there. It was all not part of the original that has come.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, I did not expect this to go into another debate, but we may need to reconsider the decisions, if we want to push it further.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 3:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the issue raised by Hon Apaak is an important one even though it came at the wrong time.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, I think it is appropriate that in the Resolutions we start using the word “approximate”, because of these issues. They still have to do the value-for-money audit, and the payments and all those things are at the rate of the contract awards and the rest. So if we start using the term “approximate”, I think it would cover all those places, not specific figures.
    Dr Prempeh 3:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this House has passed and even amended a law called the Public Procurement Act. One of the things that body does as a regulatory authority on procurement is value- for-money assessment, if you go to their website.
    When they had a look at this contract, they proffered suggestions that were also finally included in the contract as value for money to allow us to continue, so it is not only the crown agent that does it. Before we brought it to this House, we had suggested it to the national body that is responsible for value-for-money audits, and they approved it before we came.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, I would put the Question again. It was for clarification of the issue you raised.
    Dr Apaak 3:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it was not my intention to impute any ill motive. I was merely reflecting the content of the Report. Indeed, I have no reason to worry about the assurance given that the value-for-money assessment would be done in due course and presented to the Education Committee.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    [Inaudible]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 3:18 p.m.
    I did not put the Question when the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation -- I did not. I put the Question and then the voice vote came, but I did not decide before he rose, so I gave him the opportunity.That is why I had to repeat it.
    Hon Majority Leader, any guidance?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 3:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I suppose we can now take a one-hour suspension and come back at 4:30 p.m. to continue with the Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill, 2018, and we would require the Hon Minister for Education to be here.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Hon Members, I would proceed to suspend the House for one hour. The House is accordingly suspended; we would resume at 4:30 p.m.
    3.26.p.m. -- Sitting suspended.

    5.48 p.m. -- Sitting resumed
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, are we continuing with the Bill or there is any item you would want us to take before that?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we can continue with the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Hon Members, the Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill, 2018 at the Consideration Stage.
    BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 5:48 p.m.

    STAGE 5:48 p.m.

  • [Continuation from column 2887.]
  • Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    I believe that I put the Question on
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.


    clause 6 and so we would now move to clause 7. There is no proposed amendment to clause 7.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you would indulge me, I would want us to go back to clause 4 -- the Governing body of the Institute.
    Mr Speaker, clause 4(1) opens with 5:48 p.m.
    “The governing body of the Institute is a Council”.
    And then it follows with the composition of the Council.
    Clause 4(1) takes it for granted that the governing body is already established but it should establish it first. I guess clause (4) (1) should rather read:
    “There is established a governing body of the Institute which shall be a Council and which consists of.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, it means we would need to redo a number of things in clause 4. I recollect we have passed some laws this same way, but if it is a new thinking, we could do it by the following proposals. If you want us to redo it, we could say -- We could do a Second Consideration but we can relax the rules and capture the decisions of the House.
    Clause 4(1) and (2) could be phrased as follows:
    “(1) There is established by this Act a governing body of the Institute which is a Council.
    (2) The Council consists of …”
    Then the subclauses would follow.
    Hon Chairman, do I go over the proposed rendition for your kind considerations?
    Mr Siaka 5:48 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    It reads:
    “There is established by this Act a governing body of the Institute which is a Council.”
    I have been advised to drop “by this Act”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, “by this Act” could be added to it or it could be withdrawn. It does not really derogate from it if it is included.
    Mr Speaker, clause 1, Establish- ment of the Institute, reads 5:48 p.m.
    “There is established by this Act a body corporate …”
    So, it is not superfluous to add “by this Act” in clause 4. If we delete it, it would not also derogate from it because this indeed is the Act.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    The only challenge you would have is that - the Council is a legal persona like the Institute? The Institute is a body corporate and so we used the same language,
    “There is established by this Act a governing body which shall be called a Council”
    Is that also a body corporate that could sue and be sued?
    Some Hon Members 5:48 p.m.
    No.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Then the terminology should be different.
    5. 58 p. m.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, Council in the interpretation section of the Bill means the Governing body of the Chartered Institute of Bankers Ghana established under section 4. So we could say, just to avoid that linguistic difficulty, there is established by this section, if you like --[Interruption.] Can I finish?
    Mr Speaker, there is a group of prosperators who want to ambush —
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Just address the Chair.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am saying that we could just say “there is established” without adding the “Act”. So we can say, “there is established, the governing body of the Institute which consists…” and then we go on. We do not need “by the Act”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    There is established a Governing body of the Institute which is a Council. And then, the subclause (2) would be, the Council consists of “a”, “b”,”c”,”d”, and “e”. Is that acceptable?
    Hon Members, by the leave of Mr Speaker, we have gone back to clause 4. In clause 4, we are adding a new subclause. That is being proposed to be subclause 1 and it should read as follows:
    “There is established, a governing body of the Institute which is a Council”.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Hon Members, we then move to the proposed clause (4) (2) which would now read:
    “The Council consists of…”
    Is that acceptable?
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Quashgah?
    Mr Quashigah 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I very much agree with the amendment that has just been carried out. But I have a little challenge that there would then be the need for us to go back and look at some other laws we have passed. This is because when we take that of Taxation, the error we have committed, which has just been
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    We would not term it an error. I referred to it and said it was a new thinking of the House; it is not an error because we have not only that law, we have others with the same phraseology. But now, there is a new thinking that we should do it this way. So, once that is accepted, that becomes the new trend that we should— It means for future Bills, we may have to follow this.
    I shall put the Question on the proposed clause 4 (2).
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 4 as amended ordered to stand part of Bill.
    Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Clause 8?
    Clause 8 -- Establishment of committees
    Mr Siaka 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, subclause (1), line 2, delete “and” and insert “or”, and after “non- members” insert “or both”.
    Mr Speaker, the reason is to widen the scope for selection of persons onto the committee.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Do you mean the Council can establish committees of only non- members?
    Dr Prempeh 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the original rendition in the Bill emphasises “both”. It says:
    “The Council may establish committees consisting of members of the Council and non-members to perform a function”.
    Mr Speaker, this means that the Council can establish a committee of only non-members or members only, or both; but it is expensive. In the Bills that we have done this, we have gone further to say, if the Council establishes a committee of only non- members, it must be purely advisory. And I know that we did that in a lot of the University Acts and other Acts.
    So, if we want to do both, let us do it cleanly and say that the Council may establish committees consisting of one, members or non-members, or both. But when it is full of non- members, their decision is purely advisory, solely then there has to be a further amendment to that.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just want to bring the Hon Chairman's attention to the fact that because of subclause 2, there may be a need to indicate who chairs the committee of non-members.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    Apart from that, at least, I do not think the committees of only non-members
    should be able to take decisions. It should be advisory.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 5:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, flowing from the amendment proposed, could we then introduce a new subclause which would say that—
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 5:48 p.m.
    We have not taken that proposed clause yet. Let us settle on this; after we have done that, we could talk about other subclauses.
    Yes, Hon Richard Quashigah?
    Mr Quashigah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, is it right to have a committee of non- members with, at least, one Council member to chair the Committee meetings? From a certain school of thought, it is appropriate for at least a member of the Council to be on a committee with non-members -- [Interruption.] I am being intimidated by the Hon Majority Leader.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    You said a committee of non- members, so if a committee member is chairing, then it is not a committee of non-members.
    Mr Quashigah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, rightly so. In effect, we would not even have a committee of non- members, but it must be -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    Let me listen to the Hon Member for Ho Central.
    Mr Kpodo 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that the committee is to be described as a Council because there are many types of committees which could be formed.
    There are several administrative committees but where it is found to be of such significance that we would call the committee a Council, then it is imperative that a member of the Council should be a member and chair it, so that if there is any other administrative Committee at a lower level, there would be no problem with it. All non-members can constitute the Committee.
    Mr Ahiafor 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I support the Hon Chairman's amendment. Hon Quashigah has been a proponent of consistency and if you look at the Chartered Institute of Taxation Act, what he is trying to oppose is exactly what is in the Chartered Institute of Taxation Act, 2016 (Acf 916).
    So, to agree with him on the grounds of consistency with our laws, we should go by whatever is in the Chartered Institute of Taxation Act, 2016 (Act 916) which is the rendition before the House.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    It is not just consistency but it is the right thing to do.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, is the Hon Member for Akatsi saying that even if there is consistency but it is wrong, we should just blindly follow it? We cannot do that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    That is why I said that it is not because of consistency but it is the right thing to do.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:08 a.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, I agree with you. That is the right thing to do but it is not because his argument of consistency.
    Mr Ahiafor 6:08 a.m.
    I believe it is only when the consistency would lead us to an absurdity or make the provision wrong that it provides grounds for departing from it. However, if it is a correct provision, then we would have to go by it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    Hon Members, I beg to move, clause 8, subclause (1), line 2, delete “and” and insert “or”, and after “non- members” insert “or both”.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    In view of this, would there be some consequential amendments or subclauses?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I proposed a new subclause.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    You are entitled to propose, so you can go on, Hon Chairman.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, insert new subclause;
    “a committee of non-members shall be advisory.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    Hon Members, there is a proposed amendment to add the following:
    “a Committee of non-members is advisory”.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I said that, “a Committee of non-members shall be advisory”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    I thought we are moving away from the use of “shall” to “is”. That is the advice I have received, which is why I removed “shall” and said “is”. If you want to say “shall be advisory” --
    Mr Quashigah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was imagining if there should not be some qualification in that, obviously, if they are non-members, then it means they must have some special expertise, the reason for which they would be put together to advise the Council. So, if we state that the committee shall be made up of non- members, must it not be qualified as non-members with relevant expertise?
    Mr O. B. Amoah 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is not the import of the proposed amendment. Committees may be formed depending on the circum- stances and the members may not be part of the Council. In that case, whatever comes out is based on the terms of reference and then recommendations made.
    So, it cannot be binding on the Council; let us take the riots that happened at the Kwame Nkrumah University of Science and Technology (KNUST), for example. If a Committee is formed and they are not members of the Council, we cannot say that whatever the committee would bring out would be binding on the Council.
    In that case, it is non-members who have formed the committee and the Council is not bound to take whatever they come out with. That is the import of the proposed amendment. It is not about expertise.
    Dr Prempeh 6:08 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, in this same Bill that we are considering, there is a Committee called Executive Committee which is the Committee of the Council. It is a standing Committee, and it has laid out functions. Clause 10 establishes an Executive Committee which is a Committee of the Council. However, when we go to the second Schedule, this same Bill gives it specific functions that it can exercise without going to the Council.
    So, the main difference between committee composed of Council members and non-Council members committees is that one is purely advisory. Whatever they bring, the committee can take it, reject it or modify it. However, there are committees that are given specific functions and I have just given an example in this same Bill of the Executive Committee.
    That is why the amendment proffered by the Hon Member for New Juaben South is very important to distinguish between Committees of Council given specific powers and purely non-member Committees that should be purely advisory.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:08 a.m.
    There is a new subclause proposed to add the following:
    “A committee of the Council consisting of non-members shall be advisory''.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:18 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, are you against the word “advisory''?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just to help shed some light on the issue that the Hon Minister for Education raised; he referred us to the Second Schedule. The Second Schedule provides -- He cites the case of the Executive Committee that is responsible to the Council of the Institute.
    In that case, they are subservient to the Institute -- [Interruption]. Mr Speaker, would you endeavour to tame the Hon Minister for Education for us? [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:18 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I am listening to you.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, his conjectures are not helping the deliberations in the House. I said that the Executive Committee itself is subservient to the Council; it is responsible to the Council, so in that regard, it is advisory to the Council. The Council is the ultimate, and they advise the Council. So in that technical sense, it is also advisory.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is new to me. I do not know of anywhere where a subcommittee of
    a Council is the final decision-maker. They have to -- I do not have any difficulty with the advisory role; however, if we read the Second Schedule, subclause (2), in exercising 2(a), (b), (c) and (d), they are responsible to the Council. [Interruption]. No, subclause (2)(c) is part of subclause (2) -- [Interruption]. No, how could it not be part of subclause (2)?
    Mr Speaker, in the Bill all the functions under subclause (2) (a), (b), (c) and (d), are responsible to the Council. So, whatever decision they take the Council must accept it, otherwise, they cannot be the final decision makers.
    I do not know any academic council that can claim that they are the final decision-makers. If the Council rejects it, they are not the final decision makers. Even in the universities, it is not true that once they decide, the Council cannot reject. [Interruption]. No, they have to take it to the Council for the Council to accept. [Interruption] . That is the Constitution.
    Mr Speaker, I do not have any difficulty with this amendment, but the Hon Minister for Education must be careful; to start giving powers to people who do not have it -- The Council is the final arbiter and not an Executive Committee of the Council.
    It cannot work; that would be absurd. There is a five-member Executive Committee who would take everything -- that is what is happening

    in some of our universities -- that is the problem. [Interruption]. It is wrong. No university in the world has that provision, so I do not know why we should adopt it here.
    rose rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, we have a proposed amendment calling on us to add a new clause. That is what is before us now.
    I would want to listen to the Hon Member for Ho Central.
    Mr Kpodo 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just want to place emphasis on what Dr Anthony Akoto Osei said. [Interruption]. I have added it - Hon Dr Anthony Akoto Osei. [Interruption].
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Member should refer to me as the Hon Minister responsible for Monitoring and Evaluation. [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:18 p.m.
    He has tried in vain to correct himself.
    Mr Kpodo 6:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, every committee reports to the constituting body. If it is an academic board or the constituting body that sets up a committee, it would report to the academic board and whatever decision the committee reaches would have to be approved or ratified by the Academic Board before it could be implemented. Similarly, every committee set up by a Council has to report to the Council.
    Mr O. B. Amoah 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, please forgive me; I have one fundamental problem and I think we should all advise ourselves on this matter.
    I think that we have several precedents on some of these matters. Any time we bring a new Bill, we argue and try to fashion out and we sometimes end up being very inconsistent.
    Mr Speaker, with all due respect, if it is not too late, we can flag this, refer to what we have already decided in several of our Bills which have come out as Acts, so that we go back and look at it. It is better than every time

    arguing when we come to some of these things and ending up bringing out inconsistencies with what we have already decided or agreed to in this House. It is a bit confusing and worrying for me. It is unfortunate. I am sorry I could have brought several of these Acts here for us to refer to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    Do we have a provision like that in the Chartered Institute of - which one do you have there, Hon Member?
    Mr Quashigah 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is not exactly stated as it is in the Chartered Institute of Taxation Bill, 2016 (Act 916)but to a large extent
    -- 6:28 p.m.

    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    Do they have an executive committee?
    Mr Quashigah 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, no; they have not stated an Executive Committee. I have gone through the Schedule 1. The Schedule 2 is on general meetings. The Schedule 1 is largely on disciplinary committee of the Council but it does not specifically touch on the Executive Committee.
    Mr Speaker, but the little that I know agrees very much with the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation. To a large extent, even if the academic board has some mandate or roles to perform, at the end of the day, it all reverts to the Council because the Council is the final arbiter in any institution as far as I know and those that I have had some little stint with as a lecturer.

    Of course, everything revolves around the Council that at the end of the day, even if it is the Academic Board --

    I have not referred to the amendment; I think what generated the controversy was what the Hon Member raised vis-a-vis the position of the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation and the Hon Majority Leader.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    Hon Members, I will put the Question on the proposed amendment.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    rose
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you would indulge me, clause 8 subclause
    (2) --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    Oh, I thought you were going to challenge --
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:28 p.m.
    Oh, you have not pronounced?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    No.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:28 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Minister?
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, because of the amendment that the Hon Chairman made in subclause (1), I think we need to amend subclause (2) to read as following:
    “A committee of the Council consisting of both members and non-members....”
    Mr Speaker, because of the amendment made in subclause (1), this is a consequential amendment and we cannot have what we have right now.
    Mr Ahiafor 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is absolutely no need putting “both” there because the earlier amendment states “made up of members, non- members or both”. But this rendition is saying “members and non- members” and that is all right. Committees made up of members only, non-members only and both members and non-members.
    So the rendition in clause 8(2) is now clear: “A committee of the Council consisting of members and non-members…” -- they are not putting the two together.
    Mr Speaker, in clause 8(2), we are putting two things together and the conjunctive word “and” is used, so why do we introduce “both”? Clause 8(1) is saying three things but the clause 8(2) is talking about two things. Clause 8(1) says members only, non- members only or both.
    Now, if you come to clause 8(2), it is putting two things together; “members and non-members”. The conjunctive word “and” is there so how do we introduce both?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:28 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the original clause 8(1), it was intended to establish just two committees; one is made up of members of the Council and the other one made up of non-members of the council. In the original 8(1), it was only two committees.
    The amendment now introduced a third committee which would now have members of the Council and non-members of the Council in one Committee. That is the essence of the amended one. If the Hon Minister does not understand it that way, then we are in trouble. [Laughter.] We are now introducing three committees.
    Dr Prempeh 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 8(1) as constructed in the Bill is not to say that you can only establish a committee of members and non-
    members. If that is what they wanted to say -- I am reading the Bill; the committee can be members and non- members.
    Actually, when you read, legislatively, clause 8(1) can also mean you can say Committee of members and non-members - that is what you have to explain to them.

    Mr Speaker, legislatively, clause 8(1), as it stands in the Bill, constructs three committees. [Interruption] -- The amendment makes it clearer but as it stands in the Bill, it means we could have a committee of only members, non-members or both in one.

    Even without the amendment of Hon Chairman of the Committee, any lawyer or legislative draftsperson interpreting clause 8(1) gets three committees.

    Mr Speaker, so when we come to the purported change that is being made to clause 8(2), it is very unnecessary like he is saying because when a committee is made up of only non-members, how could we have a chair who is a member of the Council; and when the committee is only made up of members, whoever is there becomes a chairman.

    This means that when we have a committee of both members and non- members, the chairman is a member of the Council. So we do not need any further amendment in these two.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is just because of how we have constructed clause 8(1), for purposes of clarity, that the Hon Member for Old Tafo who is the Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation is proposing that we have -- [Interruption.]
    I agree with the Hon Minister for Education, that in its original state -- and he needs not be combative -- [Laughter] -- it could mean the way he is thinking but then, in clause 8(1), we have sought to create three committees for purposes of clarity. Now, we could have a committee of members only; the second is a committee of non-members only; and the third one is a committee of both members and non-members.
    He says because of the construct in clause 8(1), we are referring to the committee embracing members and non-members. In that regard, the Chairman of the committee should be a committee member. That is all he is saying.
    Mr Speaker, I even think that to the extent that the Council deems it fit to form a committee made up of non- members only, certainly, that committee would be chaired by a non- member, but if we have a committee comprising both members and non- members -- why would one invite non-members? One would invite them because of their special expertise.
    Mr Speaker, I think that we may not even have to legislate because if it becomes necessary for a person to chair, why not, given one's special
    knowledge in the field. When, then, do we have to legislate that in spite of his own superior knowledge, he must get subsumed under the authority of somebody who may not have the expertise in the field?
    Mr Speaker, so I would think that in that regard, we do not even need to legislate. To the extent that we admit that the committee could deem it appropriate, given their own deficiencies to form a committee of non-members completely, that the committee would be chaired by a non- member.
    So if we have a committee that would require the presence of non- members -- we are inviting the non- members because of their expertise. In that regard, we do not even need to legislate. But if we would have to legislate, so be it.
    Mr Speaker, I do not have any hard position against that anyway but I am thinking that we may not, in that case, even need any legislation to say that that committee necessarily should be chaired by a Council member.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:38 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, there is something known as local knowledge, which the members of the Council would have but the technical people might not have, so there is the need to legislate.
    Yes, Deputy Minority Whip?
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think we should proceed with the explanation given by the Hon
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:38 p.m.
    Hon Minister, so are you withdrawing the proposed amendment?
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, for the records, I am not withdrawing it; it is for the same reason he sought to clarify clause 8(1).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:38 p.m.
    So I will put the Question.
    Question put and amendment negatived.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I call for a headcount. [Laughter.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:38 p.m.
    Hon Minister, are you challenging my ruling that the “Noes” have it and you want a headcount? -- [Interruption.] It would be on record and you may stand alone. [Laughter.]
    Hon Members, I thought there would be some proposed amendments to clause 8(3) because of the amendment to clause 8(1)

    It is a committee of the Council.
    rose
    Dr Prempeh 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the difference --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:38 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Education, you just do not catch my eye and -- [Laughter] -- because when you are on your feet and your Leader is also on his feet, he takes precedence. I have to recognise him first.
    Yes, Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:38 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 7 is on disclosure of interest and it says, with your permission:
    “A member of the Council who has an interest in a matter for consideration:
    (a) shall disclose…”
    Now, the clause 8 which is on the establishment of committees only says that the clause 7 applies to the
    committee members as well. That is the import of it. Whether you are a member or non-member, the issues about disclosure of interest -- if one fails to do that, one is captured.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    When you use, “member” in clause 7, you are referring to members of committees of the Council. So, it should not apply to committee members who are non-members of the Council.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, it is the application that applies to committee members. The consequences of non- disclosure, as it applies to members, applies to committee members. That is the import of it.
    I am just looking for a constitutional provision that would --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    What you just stated is right, but where we disagree is that -- should the provisions of clause 7 apply to a non- member committee of the Council? [Interruption.] Exactly, that is why I have raised that issue.
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not think we need to amend it because a sub-committee of the Council is a committee of the Council. Therefore a member of a sub-committee of the Council is a member, whether he or she is a non- member or member of the Council. So, I do not think we have to make any amendment there.
    Dr Prempeh 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 7 follows clause 6.
    Clause 8 does not talk about the Council, but committees of the Council. It goes further to say that “committee members shall disclose their interest”. It also tells us inherently that when we have a committee of non-members, their issue can never be binding, so the matter of disclosure is not even necessary.
    That was why the emphasis of the Hon Member for New Juaben South was very relevant. Clause 8 has got nothing to do with the Council; it is committees. We know that committees could be made up of members or non-members.
    Mr Speaker, however, clause 7, which talks about the Council, says that they would have to disclose their interest because the person -- [Interruption.] Yes, that is what it tries to do.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    Let us go one by one.
    Should a non-member of the Council who has interest in a matter that has been referred to his or her committee disclose his or her interest? [Interruption.] It is not captured. The provision in clause 7 deals with
    Some Hon Members 6:48 p.m.
    They should.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    That is why subclause (3) should be amended.
    Mr Ahiafor 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as it is, the rendition is very clear. The headnote says, “Establishment of committees of the Council”. Clause 8 talks about committees of the Council.
    If we are talking of committees of the Council, therefore, it is about committees made up of members of the Council, non-members of the Council or both. These are the committees of the Council.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    I understand that bit, but when we go to clause 7(2) where:
    “A member ceases to be a member of the Council, if that member has an interest in a matter before the Council and
    (a)fails to disclose that interest, or
    (b)participates in the deliberations of the matter.”
    Now, you have said that clause 8(3) applies to non-members, but they are already non-members of the Council. So, subclause (2) would have no effect on them because they are not members of the Council.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, we have applied the same construction to many laws, but I would take us to the Constitution. Article 78 is on Hon Ministers of State. When we go to article 78(3), it is on the fact that Hon Ministers of State shall not hold any other office of profit or emolument and so on.
    Article 79 is on Hon Deputy Ministers. When we go article 79(3), the subclause says and I beg to quote:
    “Clause 3 of article 78 applies to a Deputy Minister as it applies to a Minister of State.”
    So, I do not know whether we are saying that we should insert -- the rendition is about the same. Maybe, we could just extend it to say that section 7 applies to members of the committee of the Council as it does to non-members; but respectfully, the import is the same.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    Well, I do not participate in your debates, but I see a distinction between the articles you referred to
    and these ones, because what you referred to deals with Hon Ministers of State -- one is a substantive Hon Minister, and the other is an Hon Deputy Minister and it says that what applies to substantive Hon Ministers applies to Hon Deputy Ministers.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, Hon Deputy Ministers are not covered under the headnote of Hon Ministers of State.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    Yes, I know.
    Hon Majority Leader, it is not all Hon Deputy Ministers. Hon Deputy Regional Ministers are covered under the jurisdiction of Hon Ministers of State. It is only Hon Deputy Ministers of the sectors who are not covered. Read on decentralisation.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, Hon Regional Ministers are not Hon Ministers of State.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Hon Regional Ministers are not Hon Ministers of State.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    Read! I am not asking you; I am telling you, so you read it properly.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Article 258 --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:48 p.m.
    Go to the definition section and read on “Minister”. Read the definition.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:48 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am just reading for purposes of this debate.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Read the definition of “Minister”, but you are taking the decision so we would move on.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the point is -- [Interruption.] I do not see the distinction.
    Clause 8 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 9 -- Disciplinary Committee
    Mr Siaka 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 9, subclause (2), delete and insert the following:
    “The composition of procedures for the conduct of inquiries by, and the powers of the Disciplinary Committee shall be set out in the First Schedule”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, in your proposed amendment, you are trying to do away with the repetition but you left out the word “as” in the last line to read “shall be as set out in the First Schedule”.
    Mr Siaka 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, thank you.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    That because of the composition,
    Mr Siaka 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 10, delete.
    Mr Speaker, this is to avoid duplication of Executive functions which already resides in the CEO.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Where is it described?
    Hon Chairman, I do not get your proposed amendment.
    Yes, Hon Ranking Member.
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Committee proposed a deletion because if you look at the composition of the Council and the Second Schedule, you would see that
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Why do you go to the Second Schedule when there is nothing from the main body to look at in the Schedule?
    Mr Nortsu-Kotoe 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, because you would find the functions of the Disciplinary Committee in the Second Schedule and the powers given to the Executive Committee are too arbitrary. Mr Speaker, for instance, it is said that they are responsible for the appointment and termination of appointment of senior staff and so on.
    Mr Speaker, so we feel that in giving those powers to the Executive Council, we should not be ignoring
    -- 6:58 p.m.

    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Hon Ranking Member, before you bring a Schedule there must be a provision in the main body that would need a Schedule. So, if there is no provision in the main body, then the Schedule would be hanging without roots.
    Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with you because the Schedule does not establish the Executive Council. Mr Speaker, clause 1 establishes it and clause 2 says that it could be found in the Second Schedule so we have to need 10, otherwise we do not have a Second Schedule. It must be established and then found in the Second Schedule.
    We have just done that with the Governing Board. If we do not have

    a Governing Board that has been established, then how could they have a Council? It is the same logic so clause 10 must be there.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 6:58 p.m.
    Hon Member for Akatsi South.
    Mr Ahiafor 6:58 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to urge the Hon Chairman to abandon the proposed amendment. I sat with the Committee, but just as Parliament is changing its mind, I have also changed my mind. [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker, I think the provision should stay because of the Schedule. Mr Speaker, once we have a Schedule which is talking about the Executive Council, we cannot delete the substantive provision that deals with the Executive Council in relation to which the Schedule has been provided. Mr Speaker, so the Hon Chairman should abandon the proposed amendment.
    Mr Siaka 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to withdraw the amendment to clause
    10.

    Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clauses 11 -- 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    Clause 15, Chairman of the Committee?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think we need to be consistent with the Constitution. Lately, we have qualified policy with the word “general”, so that we are consistent with the language used in the Constitution.
    The Constitution provides that Cabinet, and in this case the Minister, would assist the President in the determination of general policy of government, so I think that, just as we have done recently, in clause 13, “The Minister may give directives in writing to the Council on matters of general policy” we should qualify the “policy” with “general”, to be consistent with the language in the Constitution.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    In the case of the Constitution, the Minister is supporting the President so that they would formulate the policy. In the case of the Minister and the Council, the policy is already in place and he is giving directives that this is the policy, so it is not general. He is giving a specific directive on a policy that has already been formulated by the government. So that should not be general policy.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am just talking about what we have done in recent legislation, but of course, if what we have been doing recently is wrong, we can always go back. I am just reminding the House that recently this is what we have been doing, but if you think that --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    I thought that these sections were drawing attention to the fact that there
    is already a policy which the Minister is directing the Institute to abide by, and so it is a specific policy.
    But in the case of the others, in the course of formulating policy, the Minister has to assist the President to do so, and that is why they use “general” a lot. But this is specific. If you want us to use it, well, it is for you to decide that you want to achieve consistency.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am just reminding you of what we have been doing.
    What you are saying now is convincing, that the general policy would have been formulated at the level of Cabinet, and the Minister issues directives from the general policy specific to an institution. So you are saying that, in that regard, we may not need to repeat the language of the Constitution. We should just say “issue directives relating to policy”.
    It is convincing. Somebody else may say that it is not very persuasive, but you are in the Chair.
    Mr Speaker, I must admit that -- I believe that what you are saying makes a lot of sense.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    Thank you very much, Hon Majority Leader.
    So we move on.
    Hon Chairman, clause 15.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.


    Clause 15 -- Qualification for enrolment
    Mr Siaka 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 15 -- subclause (1), paragraph (b), line 2, delete “determine” and insert “prescribe”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, could you convince the House why it should be “prescribe” instead of “determine”? This is because (b) is dealing with condition; it is not dealing with qualifications and the rest.
    Mr Siaka 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is withdrawn accordingly.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    Have you withdrawn it?
    Mr Siaka 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes. We would maintain “determine”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    It is not the Committee; it is the House. The Committee is requesting that we delete “determine”, but the House is determined to maintain “determine”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    The next proposed amendment to clause 15, Chairman of the Committee.
    Mr Siaka 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 15, add the following new subclause:
    “A body corporate is qualified to be enrolled as a Corporate member of the Institute if that
    body Corporate is the Central Bank or a financial Institution recognised under the Banks and Specialised Deposit-Taking Institutions Act, 2016 (Act
    930).”
    Dr A.A.Osei 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a new clause, and I have serious difficulties with it. The reason is that if I work for the Central Bank, by this new clause, I had become a member of the institute, assuming I do not even qualify. That would not make it correct.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:08 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is the body that becomes a member, not the members of the body.
    Dr A. A. Osei 7:08 p.m.
    But the body must qualify.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:08 p.m.
    It is corporate membership.
    Dr A. A. Osei 7:08 p.m.
    Yes, but what is the qualification for a body corporate?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:08 p.m.
    That is what they are trying to add, to be recognised by the law.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:08 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, I thought this would have gone to the definition, where we talk about member of the institute.
    Hon Chairman, are you with me? The definition section, where we have member of the institute, you define it to include body corporate registered by the institute as a member.
    So I do not think we need to put a clause there -- but it is for the House to decide -- if you go to the definition of “member”.
    I noticed that at the definition column you have member of the banking profession, which should have been member of the institute, not of the banking profession.

    Again, clause, 14 (f), deals with “corporate members”. I am just drawing your attention to the relevant provisions so that you would be guided by that. Under “Categories of membership”, we have “corporate members” then at the definition section, we have --
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 14 says that we can have, as part of the categories of membership, “corporate members”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, clause 14 provides the categories of membership and it lists six categories:
    Mr A. Ibrahim 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just want some clarification from the Hon Chairman because I have read the new clause that they would want to add:
    “A body corporate is qualified to be enrolled as a Corporate member of the Institute if that body Corporate is the Central Bank …”
    An Hon Member 7:18 p.m.
    It is also a bank.
    Mr A. Ibrahim 7:18 p.m.
    If you say that it is also a bank, how can the regulator -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:18 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, clause 15 deals with “Qualification for enrollment” and clause 18 deals with “Qualification for registration as a member of the Institute”. You want to enrol BoG as a category of a member --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I said that clause 14 is on the categories of membership and then when we come to clause 15, we define the process of qualification for enrollment as a member for each of the listed members.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:18 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, would we enrol BoG as a member or it would be like a registered member of the Institute? We do not have to enrol BoG: What they are proposing --
    “… financial Institutions recognised under the Banks and Special Deposit-Taking Institutions Act, 2016 (Act
    930).”
    I believe they would go straight to clause 18, enrolling and being registered as a member. We need to look at the distinction because I do not see how a bank would be enrolled -- BoG of all banks, the central bank --
    Let us look at it critically. If you need technical advice, we can suspend consideration of those provisions and move on. The
    Committee could crosscheck from the technical advisors. There is a distinction between registering as a member and enrolling.
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is a distinction. BoG, deposit or non- deposit-taking institution cannot register because that body cannot be considered as a chartered banker, a student or an associate member. All those, apart from corporate mem- bers, are human beings. The only one that is not a human being is the corporate member so it cannot register for enrolment.
    One has to register with the Institute and there has to be an enrollment process that he or she goes through. If one is a student, he or she would be registered and enrolled as a student member. Those are registers for different categories and enrollment as a member of the Chartered Institute of Bankers because when you get to clause 17, “Qualification for registration as a chartered banker”, it reads:
    “A person qualifies for registration as a chartered banker if that person
    (a) has undergone the re- requisite training in banking determined by the Council in an institution or organisation recognised by the Council; and
    (b) maintains professional skills …”
    An Hon Member 7:18 p.m.
    I want some clarification.
    7. 28 p. m.
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    I will give you the clarification when I finish.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, is the Hon Minister then telling us that to be enrolled as an ordinary member of the Institute, one first needs to have been registered as a member of the Institute? To qualify for clause 15 (1), one should have gone through clause 18 (1); is that what he is saying?
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, for an individual. So, when one goes for the training —
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:18 p.m.
    So why did a qualification for enrollment in 15 (1) not make it a pre-requisite for registration, that is clause 18? [Pause.]
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 15 says that:
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.


    “A person is qualified to be enrolled as an ordinary member if that person works in the financial institution and has a Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution or an equivalent degree or (a) the minimum qualification prescribed by the Council and (b), satisfies any condition the Council determines.”

    And then, when we come to the registration process that one would go through and become enrolled as in clause (18), it says:

    “A person qualifies to be enrolled as an ordinary member if the person works in the financial institution and has a bachelor's degree.”

    There is no confusion. One should go to a school that is accredited. And I would give an example; the School of Medical Sciences is accredited. If you go to China, there are over four thousand Medical Schools. The China Medical Council does not recognise some of them.

    So, there are a lot of Ghanaians going to certain schools in China who

    the Chinese Medical Council does not recognise for providing doctors and nurses. So, if one goes to that school, qualifies and gets the certificate, one cannot work as a doctor in China.

    When one comes to Ghana, the Ghana Medical and Dental Council has to do two things: it has to recognise the certificate as coming from an accredited body before one can register to become a doctor in Ghana.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:18 p.m.
    Following your explanation, that is why I had a problem with the Bank of Ghana being enrolled.
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    When we held a discussion with the Bank of Ghana, the bank admits that we said we would make it a different clause standing on its own, if we do remember. And I said that the difficulty we would have is that it is a corporate body and we want to recognise them. So we even asked, why do we not honour them by bringing them in directly as members?
    And we even decided that we should take them out of all that registration and enrollment and have a new clause as corporate business and then put the definition that we have put there as corporate members under that.
    In fact, that was the discussion that went on, that corporate member should not be part of paragraph (f) and that, we should let it be a different clause on its own as corporate members and it would cure all the problems that we encountered there.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:18 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Chairman, in view of the explanations that have been given, what would you say to your proposed amendment?
    We actually need further clarification but, clearly, I do not see how the Bank of Ghana would apply to the Institute to be enrolled as a corporate member. As for the Bank of Ghana, it should be a registered member, if we want.
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Bank of Ghana cannot be registered, firstly, as an ordinary member or secondly, as a Fellow or as an Associate Fellow because one should have gone through some examinations and others that, as an institution, they cannot do.
    So, the understanding was to put it in a different clause that says ‘‘corporate members'' as a heading and define what we mean by a corporate member to make it a special thing.
    But the other way that we could do it is when we get to clause 18, we could exempt it, in the registration process, except if it is a corporate member so that corporate members would not have to go through it. This is because if one does not go through registration, one cannot be enrolled. That is another vehicle we could use.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the proposal is to keep the Hon Chairman's amendment for enrolling the corporate members, and when we get to clause 18, we provide for the exemption of corporate members from registration. So, the headnote we are proposing becomes qualification for registration— of non corporate members --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:18 p.m.
    Hon Members, I would propose that we allow the Committee to go and get this clarification between “enrolment” and “registration” for us to get it clearly. If not, we are likely to cause a very serious problem and the Institute would have a problem with implementation because reading clauses 14, 15, 17 and 18, there is lack of clarity.
    Well, it might not be — [Pause] -- Hon Minister for Education, I need to be very clear in my mind before I put the Questions. But the explanations coming from the Floor, including yourself, are not really clarifying the situation for me.
    Dr Prempeh 7:18 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you are right. Clause 14 introduced a category of membership that is not based upon the human person. And that is the corporate members.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    Then it means that we have to go back to clause 14.
    Dr Prempeh 7:38 a.m.
    No, Mr Speaker, we would do it at clause 18.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    Clause 14 recognises corporate members.
    Dr Prempeh 7:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, If we leave it there and at clause 15 we have defined “corporate members”, when we get to clause 18, then we could say that in the registration ‘‘corporate members'' are exempted from the registration process and we are home and dry.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    Hon Members, are you now clear with the explanation from the Hon Minister for Education? [Interruption]. Do
    you accept it? Hon Majority Leader, you are in charge of Business, what is your advice?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, we were just having some discussions here outside mainstream deliberations, that it may be better if at clause 14, under the categories of membership, we took out subclause (f), that is “corporate members” and then put it under a different clause. There, we would say that:
    “Despite section 4 (d), the Central Bank or a financial institution recognised under the Banks and Special Deposit Taking Institutions Act, 2016, may qualify as a member of the Institute”.
    We could put in something like that, so that we would take it out and then the flow would be better.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    The Hon Minister feels that group of people should be considered as corporate members.
    There is nothing wrong with describing them as corporate members instead of fellows, honorary fellows, associate members, students, ordinary members or corporate members. So, we could leave “corporate members” there, at clause 14 and then when we get to clause 18, we could come out with that --
    I can see that there is diminishing returns and so we might have to take an adjournment.
    Dr Prempeh 7:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, before you announce the adjournment, I think that once we have an agreement up to this stage, we should take it and end it, then tomorrow we could continue elsewhere.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    I would direct the Hon Minister for Education and the Leadership of the Committee to meet the Table Office to get a new rendition for tomorrow's consideration.
    Hon Majority Leader, any indication?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 7:38 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe we can take an adjournment now and meet tomorrow at 10 o'clock in the forenoon.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 7:38 a.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of the consideration stage of the Chartered Institute of Bankers (Ghana) Bill, 2015. The House is accordingly adjourned.
    ADJOURNMENT 7:38 a.m.

  • The House was adjourned at 7.44 p. m. till Wednesday, 20th March, 2019, at 10.00 a. m.