Debates of 12 Nov 2013

MR SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:20 a.m.

VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:20 a.m.

  • [No correction was made to the Offi- cial Report of Tuesday, 5th November, 2013.]
  • [No correction was made to the Official Report of Wednesday, 6th November, 2013.]
  • Mr Speaker 10:20 a.m.
    Hon Members, I have admitted one Statement for this morning, standing in the name of the Hon Minister for Defence.
    Hon Minister for Defence, you have the floor.
    STATEMENTS 10:20 a.m.

    Minister for Defence (Mr Mark O. Woyongo) 10:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, distinguished Hon Members of Parliament --
    Mr Speaker 10:20 a.m.
    I am the only person that you address in this House.
    Mr Speaker 10:30 a.m.
    Hon Member, you do not come to the floor of this House and
    take control of proceedings of the House.
    Mr Woyongo 10:30 a.m.
    My apologies, Mr Speaker -- [Interruption] -- Mr Speak- er, -
    Mr Speaker 10:30 a.m.
    Hon Minister, you make your Statement, if at the end of the day, the mood of the House is ready for a minute's silence, I would give direction.
    Mr Woyongo 10:30 a.m.
    All right. My apologies.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you for the oppor- tunity to make this Statement.
    Mr George K. Arthur (NDC -- Amenfi Central) 10:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this Statement.
    Mr Speaker, the land, peace and the heritage we enjoy today was not for free but by the toils of our forefathers and those who defended the integrity of this nation.
    Mr Speaker, these people are dead and gone but their souls still live and I would want us to refer to these people as prophets -- though they are dead, they are never referred to as “the late”.
    Mr Speaker, let us reflect on the popular song “Yen ara asaase ni, eye aboodenden ma yen”, which literally means, this is our homeland, it is a treasure to us. Let us also remember the national pledge, and ask ourselves how far, we as Ghanaians, have contributed to the building of this nation.
    Mr Speaker, we have to be proud of these veterans and give them the honour that they are due, for it is the toil and the blood they shed for this nation that has given us the peace we enjoy today.
    Mr Speaker, with this, I thank you.
    Mr Patrick Y. Boamah (NPP -- Okaikoi Central) 10:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to associate myself with the Statement made by the Hon Minister for Defence.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister admon-
    ished the youth of this country to die for
    this dear nation of ours. But in a situation where veterans are not well catered for, where we see them not in the best of shapes, chasing their due pensions, run- ning here and there for what is due them by the State, would not encourage the youth to die for this country of ours and I think a lot has to be done in that area.
    Secondly, Mr Speaker, I would have loved to hear the number of veterans still alive, to whom the youth of this country could go, at a place designated to talk to them, have an idea how they are living, how they fought those wars that we cele- brate today and how life is treating them.
    Thirdly, Mr Speaker, the museums where the weapons were kept, are arma- ments that these veterans used but they are not in the best of shapes. We are trying to promote tourism but I believe those are some of the institutions that the State has to take good care of, to enable any visitor or student to visit whenever they want, to learn issues of the world wars and others.
    With these few words, Mr Speaker, I
    thank you for this opportunity.
    Mr William Ofori Boafo (NPP -- Ak- wapim North) 10:30 a.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to the Statement made by the Hon Minister for Defence.
    Mr Speaker, every year, we com- memo-rate this event and hear a lot of speeches, as well as laying of wreaths. Mr Speaker, it is significant to note that, the decision by our forces in the 20s and in the 40s to help restore peace in the inter- national community did not end with the world wars. Today, we are witnessing the continuation of that spirit in our voluntary contribution to peacekeeping operations all over the continent, and also in the Middle East.
    We are not only involved in the peace-
    keeping operations with the ground troops, but we are also involved in the observation status by some of the senior officers. Mr Speaker, we are equally not only involved in the contribution in the peacekeeping operations, but we have excelled in our contributions, and this is acknowledged worldwide.
    Each time there is a problem either in the continent or elsewhere, the United Nations (UN) consults with the high command of the Ghana Armed Forces as to whether we are willing to make any contribution and it is worthy to note that, our forces have never turned back on such requests; the recent one, being our contri- bution to peacekeeping operations in Mali.
    Mr Speaker, we could equally see this spirit being exhibited internally, where members of the Ghana Armed Forces join the Ghana Police Service in maintaining internal peace and order; that is, the joint operations against armed robbery, chain saw operators, the galamsay and other events in the country.
    Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to note that the welfare of these veterans is so impor- tant to the High Command of the Ghana Armed Forces to the extent that, recently, they pioneered a legislation through this Parliament, to redesignate the Veterans Association of Ghana as Veterans Admin- istration, with improved provisions in the content of the law and its administration.
    Mr Speaker, we are also told, and we know for certain, areas that they have constructed legion villages for the veter- ans. But Mr Speaker, one thing which is significant and is lacking is the fact that, the activities which precede the commem- oration of the November 11 event, do not show anything which would promote the welfare of these veterans.
    One would like to see a situation where certain activities are organised to raise funds to supplement the Veterans Asso-
    ciation Fund, so that there could be more improvement in the lives of the veterans.
    Mr Speaker, there is the need to im- prove the infrastructure, amenities and facilities at the Amasaman Legion Village and I hope the Hon Minister would take this into account and take measures to improve the lot at the Legion Village.
    Mr Speaker, the other thing is that, gradually, these veterans are fading away but we do not have any historical account from them of what actually happened. I would urge the Hon Minister to insti- tute a process whereby, these veterans would have the opportunity to tell their stories, which we would try to print in a book form for the current generation to read and know the contributions that our grandfathers have made to the restoration of international peace.
    Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you for the opportunity.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    I would take one more and then we close the comments.
    Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Mun- taka (NDC-Asawase) 10:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to associate myself with the State- ment ably made by the Hon Minister for Defence on the commemoration of the Veterans Day as it is popularly called.
    Mr Speaker, it is a day for us in this House, as the Hon Minister rightly men- tioned, to remember the fallen heroes who sacrificed their lives to have the peace that we deserve. It is also to remember those who returned wounded, disabled and the sacrifices that our servicemen and women have been demonstrating to ensure that we stay peaceful.
    Mr Speaker, I also believe that, it should be a day for the world to know that, there is no reward for war, regardless of the difficulties that we find ourselves. Jaw-jawing and peaceful resolution of
    Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 10:40 a.m.
    Barrackses and -- Mr Speaker, it is a contradiction to the terms “ fine”, “wretched” and “neat”. I know what he wants to say; he should say it properly.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    Hon Member, is that a point of order?
    Dr Prempeh 10:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, maybe -- [Interruption.] Mr Speaker, on a point of correction.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    What is your point of order?
    Dr Prempeh 10:40 a.m.
    Barrackses, it is not a word in our dictionary.
    Alhaji Muntaka 10:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I mean to say, in our barracks today, you would see, maybe, a very old vehicle that is being driven by our soldiers, but they make sure that the vehicles are neatly kept as well as their environments. They look more disciplined and that is what we need in our society, if we have to forge ahead and develop our country.
    Lastly Mr Speaker, the last time in 2012 when we had to work on this Act 844 which the Hon Minister rightly mentioned, we established a Fund that was supposed to enable the military administration es- tablish business entities that could serve as an avenue for employment creation for veterans who are honourably discharged from the military.
    In my view, it would be interesting that one of these days, the Hon Minister for Defence would come and give us an update with regard to this fund, because we believe that, many of the veterans who are young -- because you could get someone being honourably discharged from the military at the age of 40 and some of them are nowhere near the retiring age of 60. If those energies are not redirected, and we are not careful, they could also be used negatively.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to take this opportunity once again, to commend the Minister for the Statement made and hope that most of the comments in his Statement are things that he would be pursuing, as he continues to serve as the Hon Minister for Defence.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of Statements.
    Hon Members, do we rise and observe a minute's silence in honour of the fallen heroes.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    May their souls rest in perfect peace.
    You may resume your seat.
    At the Commencement of Public Busi- ness-- Hon Majority Leader.
    Dr Benjamin B. Kunbuor 10:40 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, if we could take item No. 4.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    Very well.
    Presentation of Papers -- By the Min- ister for Energy and Petroleum.
    Dr Kunbuor 10:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister is out of the jurisdiction; so I would seek your indulgence for the Dep- uty Minister to lay the Paper.
    Mr Speaker 10:40 a.m.
    Hon Minority Leader?
    Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I had an urgent message from my constituency which I was listening to; so I had a divided attention; if the Hon Majority Leader could let me know what exactly it is.
    I am sorry.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    He has made an appli- cation for the Hon Deputy Minister for Energy and Petroleum to lay Papers on behalf of the substantive Minister.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, that cannot meet any resistance.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Very well.
    Hon Deputy Minister for Energy and Petroleum -- Item 4(a).
    PAPERS 10:50 a.m.

    Dr Kunbuor 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we could take item 5.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Item 5(a) -- Minister for Chieftaincy and Traditional Affairs?
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    The Committee is further directed to determine whether the Bill is of an urgent nature to be taken through all the stages in one day, in accordance with Standing Order 119 of the House.
    Item 5 (b) -- Attorney-General and Minister for Justice?
    Dr Dominic A. Ayine 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, may I ask for leave to lay the Bill on behalf of the Attorney-General?
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bon- su?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have not given any indication that I want- ed to say anything. But if you are inviting me, then I would say something.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    I am not inviting you to just say anything, but I am asking you, if you have any objection to he laying of the Paper on behalf of the Minister. It is a normal practice we have developed in the House.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, what I am not too sure is the referral to the Committee, which you have done in respect of item 5(a).
    Mr Speaker, I thought it is the Com- mittee scheduling to meet on the issue which would determine whether it is a matter of urgency. But in referring the amendment Bill to the Committee, you are directing them to consider whether or not it should be considered under a certificate of urgency.
    Mr Speaker, I thought that was very misleading.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    It is for the Committee to determine. I am only asking them to determine; I have not determined for the Committee.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    leave it to them. Can they ignore --
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    There are legal and constitutional issues; that is why I have to do that. Otherwise, the Bill would not be matured to be laid at all in the House in the first instance. That was the only reason I allowed the Bill to be laid because there are legal and constitutional issues, that was why I gave those directives.
    Hon Members, let us proceed.
    Hon Deputy Attorney-General and Deputy Minister for Justice?
    BILLS -- FIRST READING 10:50 a.m.

    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Dr Kunbuor 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we could take item 6
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Item number 6 --
    rose
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Yes?
    Mrs Juliana Azumah-Mensah 10:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am sorry to take you back to item 5(b). The last adjourned date, it was referred to the Committee on Constitu- tional, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs, as well as the Committee on Gender and Children. So, I wonder if we would still maintain that.
    Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, an issue has been raised that we should add the Committee on Gender and Children.
    Dr Kubuor 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have no objection.
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Very well. The Com- mittee on Gender and Children added accordingly.
    Item number 6 --
    rose
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Member for Tarkwa, I have added it.
    Mrs Kusi 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes, but this is another issue on the item 6 that you just mentioned. We just got the Report and we are yet to read and compare it with --
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Members, I was not in the Chair at the last Sitting; therefore did not preside over the House when the issue cropped up. My understanding was that, certain issues were raised which were to be corrected before the debate could proceed. The Order Paper is the continuation of the debate and for those areas that have been raised, we would find out whether they have been addressed or not.
    Those are the fundamental issues; and I was going to find out from the Chairman and the Ranking Member, so that I can get the sense of the Committee that is working on this Report to proceed from there.
    Mr G. K. Arthur 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, those issues have been addressed and attached to the Report.
    Mr Dominic B. A. Nitiwul 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to get the direction, as you said, from the Chairman. Is it a continuation of the whole Report --
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Member, look at the Order Paper.
    Mr Nitiwul 11 a.m.
    What does the Order Paper say Mr Speaker?
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Members, if there are no contributions, I will put the Ques- tion.
    Dr A. A. Osei 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, my under- standing from the Hon Deputy Minority Leader is that, there are some issues and they would want to withdraw the old one that was laid and re-lay a new one. That is what I have just been informed about; because I was a member of the Committee. So if that is what they would want to do, they should go ahead and do it properly rather than saying that -- If they, want to withdraw they should go ahead; and re-lay it; because if there have been changes --
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Members, my un- derstanding is that, what is on the Order Paper means debate will continue. That is what they have put there. I did not preside over the House the last time when this matter was debated.
    My understanding was that, certain things in the Report should be corrected, that is why I asked the Chairman wheth- er those things have been corrected. He should draw the House's attention to those areas that have been corrected and proceed from there.
    Dr A. A. Osei 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the de- bate has not started at all. [Interruption.] When?
    Mr Speaker 11 a.m.
    Hon Members, when a
    Motion is moved and seconded -- Look at the Order Paper. I was not here. So I am looking at the Order Paper. Unless you would want to say the Motion was not moved and seconded.
    Dr A. A. Osei 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is why I am bringing your attention to it.
    Mr Joseph Y. Chireh 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to contribute to the debate and to say that, this debate started, and continued. Because of the issues that were raised, the Committee went back, invited the Hon Minister and the officials who are propelling this agreement here. Thorough examination was done.
    I am not a member of the Committee but I was present in many of the things. I can assure you that every issue that was raised was looked at carefully and exam- ined to the satisfaction of the Committee. I would urge that we debate the issue or you put the Question for us to approve the Motion.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    I believe the facts as narrated are correct, except that we have procedural problems
    here. The Report that was laid and which was being debated is not this Report; so there is no problem with this Report, except that, the original Report ought to be withdrawn and the new one re-laid for debate to continue.
    Mr Speaker, we are talking about the Report, it is not this Report that has been given to us now; but the original Report. But certainly, because of issues raised, the Report is being amended by substituting a new one, so the original one has to be withdrawn and this Report re-laid for debate to continue. That is all. I do not think it is even necessary for us to --
    Dr Kunbuor 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was not in the House the last time, but the briefing that I was given, seems to be based on the direction of the person presiding and it is not one of the normal ones in which there is an outright substitution, but the direc- tive was given that, some specific things in that Report had a challenge.
    While I agree with the former Leader of the House, the process would be that, the Chairman would now tell us how he had complied with the directive that was given by the person presiding. It is in that context, that he would then draw attention that the previous Report that was laid, based on the directives that the person presiding had given, have been duly com- plied with. We would then see whether it becomes substantially a new matter for us to relay or it is a continuation based on the directives that were given.
    Mr Nitiwul 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe we are all interested in trying to move forward and give the best for this nation. But as my Hon Senior Member said, I have two reports currently in front of me, which are totally different. We have about almost 20 pages in the new Report. The only differ- ence or the only similarity is about the first two pages, the rest are totally different.
    All the attachments that are in this Re-
    port were not in this one. So, the impres- sion I got originally from the Leadership here, which we went backwards to discuss was that, they were going to withdraw this, substitute it and then give Hon Members the opportunity to be able to debate on this particular one.
    But just because we are referring to the Order Paper, that is what you know, that Parliament is a master of its own procedure So we should be able to give Hon Members the opportunity to look at the Report which is totally different. I do not think we should be tied by the fact that, because it is on the Order Paper, the Motion should continue.
    Yes, we know. Nobody is kicking against it, but you should give Hon Mem- bers the opportunity to relook at it and do justice to it. This is because the contract has been to us. It was not by chance May- be somebody should supply you the two for you to have a look at them, then maybe we could make a little bit of progress.
    Mr Haruna Iddrisu 11 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have perused this Report and it is not substantially different from the Report that was originally laid.
    Mr Speaker, I was in this House when
    this Motion was debated and it was the request of this House that, the Report be improved, in particular reference to the Indemnity Clause which was the major issue. So, as I look at it, if you go to page 5, “Observations,” that is where a number of recommendations have been done; improving the original Report that was laid. I am just saying this for the record. Therefore, we can debate what is here and take a position as a House.
    Mr Ken O. Agyapong 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, we did substantial changes in the docu-
    Mr Alban S. K. Bagbin 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, I was present in the House when the Report was presented. It was thoroughly debated and some defaults were detect- ed and pointed out, particularly on the “Con- clusion.” The “Recommendations” were such that, they asked us to approve the Report, subject to some reservations they expressed. So, the Speaker found it difficult to put the Question for a decision to be taken. So, they were directed to go back and look at those issues and resubmit the Report.
    Mr Speaker, the Report has been re- submitted and we have two options. Once it is resubmitted, the Committee, led by its Chairman and the Ranking Member would have to tell us what work they have done on the directive. If there is the need for us to be given time to go through -- if they are substantial, then Members would be given time to go through them and return to debate.
    So, if they are not substantial, but it is something we can take along, we would do so. It is not automatic that the old Re- port has to be withdrawn and the recent Report re-laid.
    We have to look at the Leadership first, before we can take a decision. So, the Hon Chairman and the Ranking Member be given the permission to lead the House to what they have done, what their responses
    are, to the directive from the Chair, before we can proceed.
    Mr Speaker 11:10 a.m.
    I will take the last comment on this matter and make a de- termination.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, the bottom line is, we have to approve of the document before us. Mr Speaker, what are we doing? Are we approving based on the first Report or on this amended Report? That is the issue. Is the approval going to be based on the first Report? No. It is going to be based on the Report as amended, which then invalidates the first one.
    So, why anybody should be stumbling over this, Mr Speaker, I do not understand. Certainly, this one annuls the first one.
    Mr Speaker 11:10 a.m.
    Hon Members, there is a procedural challenge here, and I believe that as the Hon Deputy Minority Leader indicated, we are masters of our own procedure; there is no constitutional injunction in this case.
    What I intend to do is that, the Chair- man of the joint Committee should with- draw the original Report, have this one laid, suspend the Standing Orders and proceed from there.
    Chairman of the joint Committee, you will lay it -- [Interruption.] I agree that there are two options, but because we may not have two Reports simulta-neously and because it is more or less a new report, we would go ahead.
    Hon Members, because we are already aware of the facts of the case, we would go ahead and suspend the Standing Orders and proceed.
    Hon Chairman, withdraw, and make application to lay the new Report.
    Mr Herod Cobbina 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, with
    the leave of the House, I beg to withdraw the first Report and re-lay the second one.
    First Report withdrawn by leave of the House.
    Mr Speaker 11:10 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, now proceed with Presentation of Papers.
    PAPERS 11:10 a.m.

    Mr Speaker 11:10 a.m.
    Chairman of the Com- mittee, suspend the Standing Orders and then move the Motion.
    MOTIONS 11:10 a.m.

    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Herod Cobbina) 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80(1), which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least, forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given, and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adop- tion of the Supply Contract for Dedicated Security Information System between the Government of Ghana and ZTE Corpora- tion of China may be moved today.
    Mr Speaker 11:10 a.m.
    Hon Members, the es- sence of the Motion is to suspend Standing Order 80 (1).
    Mr George K. Arthur 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Government of Ghana and ZTE Corporation of China on Supply Con- tract for Dedicated Security Informa-
    tion System
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr Herod Cobbina) 11:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the joint Committee on Communications and Defence and Interi- or on the Supply Contract for Dedicated Security Information System between the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ZTE Corporation of China.
    Mr Speaker, in doing so, I present the Report.
    Introduction
    The Supply Contract for a Dedicated Security Information System between the Government of Ghana (represented by Ministry of Communications) and ZTE Corporation, China was laid in the House on Thursday, 19th September, 2013 and referred to the joint Committee on Communications and Defence and Interior for consideration and report pursuant to Standing Orders 158, 182 and 190.
    The Committee met with the Hon Minister for Communications, Hon. Ed- ward K. Omane Boamah and a combined technical team from the Ministry and the National Security Outfit to consider the terms of the Contract. The Committee reports as follows:
    Reference documents
    The Committee referred to the follow- ing documents during its deliberations:
    1. The 1992 Constitution.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, I would plead with the Chairman, in view of what happened the other time, that there were specific reservations. Could he relate to those reservations and how they have dealt with those reservations? We would be happy with that.
    Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, my understanding is that they have dealt with them, so he should limit himself.
    Mr Cobbina 11:20 a.m.
    The first phase (Phase One), deployed in 2007 is fully operational and serving part of the southern sector of Ghana (Greater Accra, Central, Western, Eastern, Volta and Ashanti Regions). The second phase (Phase Two), which is an expansion of the project, will cover the northern part of Ghana (Upper East, Upper West, Brong Ahafo and Northern Regions). In addition, phase one will be expanded.
    Phase one provided a capacity of fifty thousand (50,000) with seventy-two (72) Base Transceiver Stations (BTS). Phase two will increase capacity to two hun- dred thousand (200,000), running on a system that can serve up to three million (3,000,000) users.
    This project is expected to be com- pleted within eighteen (18) months of commencement. When completed and fully functional, the system will have a country-wide coverage including the following attributes:
    Network equipment
    The cost of network equipment, excluding terminals, changed from US$15,219,922.00 to US$62,833,723.00. The reasons include:

    i. The previous design for Phase II included 70 base stations equip- ment to provide coverage for some parts of the northern sector of the country. This number is however woefully inadequate if the system is to attain total national coverage as projected. Thus, 270 BTS equipment (about four times that of the previous design) is provided for in the new design.

    ii. The base station equipment pro- posed in the new solution is state- of- the- art, more advanced, efficient and future oriented.

    iii. To guarantee the security, reli- ability and performance of the network, total network redun- dancy has been employed in the core network; meaning that the same equipment have been deployed in both Accra, Kumasi and Tamale switch centres and inter-linked; so that should one switch centre fail, the other takes over full control of the whole network. This was non-existent in the previous design as no core network equipment was included in the costing for Phase II. This additional equipment amounts to more than doubling of the previous core network.

    iv. The previous design catered for only voice and low rate (1X) data at 15.3 kbps per carrier. The new design introduces the EVDO Rev B platform which boosts data transmission up to 4.9 Mbps per carrier, over 30 times that of the old design. This facility provides for all the new equipment as well as those at the existing sites.

    v. The new design introduces larger

    capacity, more robust and mod- ern configuration of transmission equipment to enable the system support the high data rates to be transmitted using the EVDO and other surveillance systems.

    Other equipment

    New advanced equipment and services which in addition to the network that have been provided for the new solution are as follows:

    i. LTE (Long Term Evolution) system at the cost of US$6,491,563.00, comprising a core part and radio sites has been introduced in the new solution to provide high speed data service. LTE solution is the 4 generation technology with latest technical parameters. In the new design, dual mode radio base stations with high data performance will be used.

    ii. Remote monitoring of the exter-

    nal alarm system at the cost of US$3,383,058.00 has also been introduced to provide real time alarm management in order to secure the stability and perfor- mance of whole network. With this system, the technicians could monitor the whole network, in- cluding core equip-ment rooms, remote radio sites and transmis- sion platforms from a location in Accra. This will reduce the huge cost of monitoring the whole network.

    iii. An international gateway at the cost of US$2,603,323.00 has also been introduced to enable direct communication between Govern-ment and the various consulates and foreign branch offices outside Ghana without going through the commercial
    Mr Kennedy Agyapong (NPP--Assin Central) 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Thank you
    Question Proposed.
    Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
    Hon Members, in view of what has been said on the floor, I want us to raise those areas of concern which cropped up on the floor of the House and see whether it has been addressed before I put the Question.
    Mr George Arthur (NDC -- Amenfi Central) 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to support the Motion and to thank those who had the vision to come with this new system, that is the Global Opening Architecture which is known as GOTA System. Mr Speaker, this contract was signed on 5th November, 2006, to reduce the cost that is incurred in Government communication institutions.
    Mr Speaker, one could see that every year, we rely on the private communica- tion services and government institutions do not care how much they incur on com- munication because it is the Government which pays. So, at the end of the year, we always leave a huge bill there for the Government to pay. That was why those who had the vision had to come out with an entirely independent system that is not going to rely on these private service providers.
    So they came out with this new system known as GOTA so that Government will not have to pay any money to any private service provider.

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    Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, you know we want to move to the VAT Bill as early as possible and I am saying that, those particular areas that were raised on the floor, I would want you to address them so that I put the Question.
    Mr Arthur 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, some of the issues raised were on the definition, terms of payment, contracts personnel, indem- nity, training, warranty, et cetera. And Mr Speaker, all those areas have been raised under the main contract on page 6 --
    Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
    Hon Members, the back- ground noise is getting out of control.
    Mr Arthur 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the issues raised have been captured on page 6 of the Report. I know if this second phase which is going to improve the system to about 200 subscribers is completed, I know we are going to save so much for the Government.
    With this I support the Motion.
    Mr W. O. Boafo (NPP -- Akwapim North) 11:20 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, at the last time that this Report was considered, certain issues were raised with regard to the obligations to the contractor but this has been taken care of. Mr Speaker, I will just mention a few of them. The first one deals with the contractor's personnel -- that he has an obligation to disclose the expatriate personnel that he would engage.
    The other obligation is in respect of training, that he is obliged to inform the purchaser about the modalities for training, with particular emphasis on the training of our local people.
    Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of confidentiality, and this has been taken
    care of to ensure that, we are not at risk. Mr Speaker, another obligation is in re- spect of the local content of the contract and this has also been taken care of under clause 27.
    Mr Speaker, another area which calls for a review, is with regard to the indem- nification clause which has been made reciprocal. Mr Speaker, the current review supply contract covers both the purchaser and the contractor. Mr Speaker, this is contained on page 6, item 6.19 and it could be found under clause 37 (2) of the revised supply contract.
    Mr Speaker, the issue of indemnifi- ca-tion was very crucial and we are glad that, Members of the Committee agreed, and also the contractor willingly agreed to the amendment. Mr Speaker, in view of the reciprocity in the indemnification, we felt that the clause in respect of lim- itation of liability for the purchaser was unnecessary, so that was also deleted and is reflected in the new supply contract.
    Mr Speaker, the other issue is about the need to use the independent engineers report.
    Mr Speaker, this came about with re- gard to the payment of the second tranche of the consideration involved and it was realised that so far as that payment is concerned, the purchaser is under obli- gation to pay the amount if the shipping documents are delivered.
    There was not sufficient definition of what is meant by ‘shipping document'. This is because we do not want to take the meaning of “shipping document” under the normal international trade, where one would deliver a bill of lading and one is all right and receives the payment.
    We want to make sure that, in addition to the bill of lading, there is a report from an independent engineer to ensure that, the items which are being shipped are
    in accordance with the specification as contained in the contract.
    So, Mr Speaker, with these observa- tions and the corrections that have been made, I believe the issues raised primarily by the Hon Member for Sekondi has been taken care of so far as the revised contract is concerned.
    But Mr Speaker, there are two observa- tions that I would like to make. The first one is about the scope of people who will be entitled to use this particular facility.
    We are told that the scope will extend to cover most of the civil servants up to the local level.
    Mr Speaker, for purposes of ac- count-ability, I believe the Hon Minister for Communications would take the trouble to specify those who are entitled to receive this facility, so that there will be no abuse in the distribution of this facility, which is essentially to help in security matters.
    Also, I will plead with the Hon Min- ister for Communications, that, in deter- mination of the scope of beneficiaries, he should go outside the Civil Service bracket and try to consider informants to the Security Agencies, so that they are also given this access to enable them facilitate community policing and other auxiliaries of security work.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of the debate. Hon Members, this matter has been debated for long, unless the Leaders want to make some contributions.
    Hon Members, this matter was debated, concerns were expressed on the floor of the House. The Committee went back to address those concerns and they brought them. I carefully listened to the Ranking Member on Defence and Interior and he said that all those concerns have been
    addressed.
    Hon Minority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, I think there were a few concerns, but then, Hon Members who wanted to raise them, were stopped because of the course that we took. It is not to derail the approval, but if we could listen to those concerns, I guess we can move quickly on to the approval.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    All right, I will take one Member from each side of the House.
    rose
    Dr Anthony Osei 11:30 a.m.
    -- rose --
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Allright, should I take the Ranking Member or the Deputy Mi- nority Leader?
    Mr Nitiwul 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, take both and you can take both Members here on this side, the left side of the House. No- body wants to derail the thing but the two are very important.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Yes, Hon Ranking Member on Finance Committee.
    Dr A. A. Osei (NPP -- Old Tafo) 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the last time I did not contribute.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    You have the floor.
    Dr Anthony Osei 11:30 a.m.
    Thank you. [Laugh-
    ter.] Mr Speaker, first, I would want to commend the joint Committee. This is perhaps, the first time I have seen as many people on both Committees at the last meeting. This is what Parliament should be about.
    Mr Speaker, when we raised the issues,

    it was to protect the Hon Minister so that when he is not there, people will take him seriously.

    Mr Speaker, I would want to refer Hon Members to paragraph 5.0 and this is for the Hon Minister's own protection. You see that the original one started in 2006. It was not in 2011, that the Government decided to restart negotiation. Now, in the interim, we are aware that, the Govern- ment has also purchased another security system as the Hon Minister for Trade and Industry advised.

    It would be important that, these two security systems are integrated, so that we would get optimum efficiency, otherwise, there will be something wrong.

    Mr Speaker, at the end of the day, I think the Hon Minister has gained a lot from what we did and we should be thank- ful to the Committees.

    Mr Speaker, I would just want to advise the Minister as he said. What is happen- ing with him, I would want him to take lessons from the statement he made at the Committee. I would not want to repeat it, he is aware of what I am talking about and I think these are serious lessons that all of us can learn.

    I am sure he will agree that, it is not -- We did this audit because of his statement and I think it has come out very well and I believe that he has learnt from it and all of us have learnt from it.

    Mr Speaker, finally, I would want you to direct other Committees that such due diligence should be the norm not the

    exception.

    With those few words, I thank you. Mr Dominic Nitiwul (NPP -- Bim-

    billa): Mr Speaker, the main issue this Report was sent back had to do with the indemnity clause, and I am happy that an attempt has been made to look at it.

    Mr Speaker, my main issue is on the payment schedule, I think article 6, on page 9 of 28 of the new Report.

    Mr Speaker, I hope the Hon Minister is listening. I may be wrong but from what I have read, my understanding of the contract is that, 30 per cent would be paid to the contractor 45 days after the signing of the contract. The contractor would then have about 180 days to start shipping the goods.

    Mr Speaker, not just that, another 40 per cent, the moment he ships the goods, the purchaser is expected to pay another 40 per cent. So, even before the goods reached Ghana, we have paid 70 per cent. That is my understanding of the --
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Hon Member, are you aware of the main loan agreement itself? The money is not here, the money is outside.
    Mr Nitiwul 11:30 a.m.
    But we have borrowed it. The money may be outside, but it is our money now, we have borrowed it. It is Ghana's money, it is no more their money, we have borrowed it and I think that if it is true, I would want the Hon Minister to respond, if it is true, then I think it is not good enough. So, maybe the Hon Minister would have to look at it and then we would find out how true it is.
    This is because I have been trying to peruse the contract to find out whether if the goods are bad, they would have to pay
    some damages or if the goods are bad and we reject them, how do we get back that 70 per cent of the US$129,000,000?
    Minister for Communications (Dr Edward Omane Boamah) 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think what the Hon Member is alluding to was discussed extensively at the Com- mittee level. I remember we even evoked the practice which existed previously in the Phase I, and we discussed that -- The conclusions were that, in this particular contract, it has even been improved to the advantage of Ghana.
    I have the earlier contract here, but I do not think we need to do the compari- son. So, I would want to assure the Hon Member that the Committee, the Ministry and the Attorney-General's (AG's) De- partment looked at the previous contract and improved upon it.
    As Hon Dr Anthony Akoto Osei indi- cated, this is a novelty; it is the first time that we are having a Supply Contract in this House post the Supreme Court judg- ment [Laughter.] So some of these things, I am very sure, lots of lessons have been learnt, both at the Committee level, at the preliminary, at the AG's Department and the Ministry.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of the debate.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Item number (7) on the Order Paper, Hon Minister for Commu- ni-cations.
    RESOLUTIONS 11:30 a.m.

    Minister for Communications (Dr Edward Omane Boamah) 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    I beg to move, that
    WHEREAS by the provisions of article 181 (5) of the Constitution the terms and conditions of any international business or economic transaction to which the Gov- ern-ment of Ghana is a party shall not come into operation unless the said terms and conditions have been laid before Parliament and approved by Parliament by a Resolution sup- ported by the votes of a majority of all Members of Parliament;
    PURSUANT to the provisions of the said article 181 (5) of the Constitution, and at the request of the Government of Ghana acting through the Minister responsible for Communications, there has been laid before Parliament the terms and conditions of a Supply Contract for Dedicated Security Information System between the Government of the Republic of Ghana and ZTE Corporation of China.
    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 11:30 a.m.

    HEREBY RESOLVES AS FOL- 11:30 a.m.

    Mr Herod Cobbina (NDC -- Sefwi Akontombra) 11:30 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
    Hon Members, item 7 is a Resolution. But the Hon Minister has moved the item number 7 on page (3) of the Order Paper. There is only one item numbered 7 at page (3) of the Order Paper.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, as you rightly said, the item numbered 7 is the Resolution. The Hon Minister got up and said, “I am moving item number 7”. What is the import of that? Mr Speaker, if the Hon Majority Chief Whip will listen, let him coach him to do what is right because for now, what he has done is inappropriate.
    Mr Avedzi 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Resolution is numbered 7 on the Order Paper and ref- erence is made to item number 7 on page 3 of today's Order Paper and that is the Resolution. I am not sure whether the Hon Minority Leader is asking the Hon Min- ister to read the entire Resolution. Just to save time, he said item 7 on page 3 on the Order Paper and I think it is appropriate.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I know you are debarred by our Standing Orders from descending in this debate. But Mr Speaker, I would want to believe that somebody would let the Hon Chair- man of the Finance Committee know that what is being done is inappropriate, just that.
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, what is inappropriate?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, I think this is a very circuitous way of letting him show the path —
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    No, because the Hon Member, the Hon Minister gets up - what I heard him say is that, he is moving Item number 7 at page 3 of the Order Paper. Item number 7 at page 3 is a Resolution. We have all used short forms of moving Motions and that is the short form of moving this Resolution.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, really, is that it?
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Minister, what did you say? Let me hear from you again. The Hon Minority Leader wants to hear your voice.
    Dr Boamah 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I indicat- ed that I was moving item number 7 on page 3 of the Order Paper, which is the Resolution.
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Members, all of us understood the import of what the Hon Minister has moved. At least, I am presiding and I understood him so. Who is seconding the Motion for the adoption of the consequential Resolution?
    Who is seconding the —Yes, Chairman of the Communications Committee.
    Mr Herod Cobbina 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Resolution for adoption of the House.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Dr Kunbuor 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, we can now go back to Item 8, the continuation of the Consideration Stage of the Value Added Tax bill, 2013.
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Members the Value
    Added Tax Bill, 2013 at the Consideration Stage. Clause 30.
    BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 11:40 a.m.

    STAGE 11:40 a.m.

    Mr Avedzi 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move clause 30, subclause (13), line 1, delete “improperly claims a refund” and insert the following:
    “makes a claim for refund which
    that person is not entitled to”.
    Mr Speaker, the new rendition will read 11:40 a.m.
    “a person who makes a claim for refund which that person is not enti- tled to under this section is liable for a penalty equal to double the amount of the refund claimed”.
    Dr Prempeh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, this was one of the subclauses that we stood down for discussion and no discussion has gone on. If you read the rendition, he now says that, a person who makes a claim for refund, which that person is not entitled to, is liable —
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.
    Dr Prempeh 11:40 a.m.
    — For a penalty equal to double the amount of the refund claimed. It was not only about the refund. It talks about the penalty, what about the amount itself. The refund should be the amount, plus the penalty and that was why we were told to go and discuss. The initial amount that he has improperly or claimed falsely had not been catered for by this, it is only the penalty that we are doubling. It has to be the amount plus the penalty.
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    The penalty -- That is why they say double the refund.
    Dr Prempeh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the English phraseology there is that, the penalty for the improper claim is double the amount, it has not spoken about the amount itself. They have to pay the amount and the pen- alty becomes double the amount.
    Mr Yieleh Chireh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, he is assuming that the person has already claimed the money, but he has not claimed the money. That is why — He knows he was trying to defraud, when you are detected, you will pay the —
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Member, the clause
    13, suggests that he has claimed. “A per- son who improperly claims a refund…”
    Mr Chireh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is not that he has made it.
    Dr Prempeh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, Hon Mem- ber, if the person has not made a claim, why give a double penalty?
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    Hon Members, in the original Bill, the person has claimed, but in the new rendition, the person has not yet claimed, the House has to reconcile the two positions as to what we want to see in the Bill.
    Dr Prempeh 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the person has not claimed, how do you say a penalty?
    Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
    The amendment is saying a different thing from what is in the Bill. The House must reconcile these and let us find out exactly what we want to find in the Bill. Hon Minority Leader, do we defer?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speak- er, my understanding of this new construc- tion is that, it captures both legs of the offence. That is, the process of seeking the refund and of seeking that claim. If it is detected during the process, you are covered by this, but then if it is sequel to the claim, you are also caught by that. So, I really do not find anything wrong with the construction.
    Mr Boafo 11:40 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we go through other legislations, we realise that, even in the case of a murder, the language is that, whoever kills, it does not mean whoever killed. So, I think the language is correct. If the person makes an attempt, that will form another subject of offence. That is an attempt made by the person. If he makes an attempt to claim, that will be an attempted offence, if he has claimed, then he falls under this.
    MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
    Hon Member continue Mr Speaker, I was ad- dressing your goodself that so far as the language of subclause 13 is concerned, it is my opinion that, that is correct. This is because we do not have to use the past sentence about “claim”. If we compare it with the language that pertains in other legislations, if we go to the Criminal Code, for example, in the case of murder, the language is “whoever kills,” or “whoever steals”; it does not say “whoever killed”. .
    Mr Speaker, the other argument that I made was that, if there is a reference to the person who makes an attempt to claim it then, that also forms another leg of an offence -- Attempted to claim.
    But I agree with the Hon Member for Manhyia South (Dr Matthew Prempeh), to the extent that, if we have made provision for a person who has already claimed, then there is the need for us to make another provision to cover the paying back of the amount collected by that person in addi- tion to the penalty.
    Mrs Eugenia G. Kusi 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the way the amendment is framed, makes it different because it says; “the person makes a claim”, and then the rendition in the Bill itself say “the person who claims.” So it means that if we say that “the person who makes”, the person has not already claimed.
    I do not think that we need to amend the one in the Bill because it takes care of the person who has intention and the person who has also done it.
    Dr A. A. Osei 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the last time, the issue was whether or not the sanction was prohibitive enough. The Hon Matthew Prempeh's issue is whether or not
    a hundred per cent penalty is sufficient, I remember there were discussions as to both penalty and interest. So in this case the penalty is a hundred per cent because it is double the amount.
    I have an issue as to whether or not we also want to collect the interest on the amount if the claim has been made. The change only deals with the process of making the claim. So I think we may have to step it down and come back to it, so that we make sure that we are doing the right thing.
    Dr Prempeh 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I know Hon Avedzi is my senior Colleague, but let me finish. Mr Speaker, on the initial day we started this debate, I raised the issue with a simple analogy that, if the person claims GH¢1,000.00 and is caught five years after claiming that GH¢1,000.00, by this rendition the person is going to pay GH¢2,000.00. We have not talked about the current value of money.
    The GH¢1,000.00 five years ago is not the same today, that is why the current val- ue of the money is very important plus the penalty. The current value of the money takes care of the interest that the Hon Dr Akoto Osei has talked about and then the penalty comes on. This is because if we just leave it like that, we have not even spoken about the value of the money, let alone the interest and the penalty.
    That is where we are coming from. The phraseology should be “the current value plus the penalty” and it takes care of both situations.
    Mr Avedzi 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the whole issue is about -- If we say a person who claimed a refund and it is later detected that, that person is not entitled to that refund --The mistake might even come from the Ghana Revenue Authority (GRA)
    themselves and not an intention of that taxpayer to fraudulently claim that refund. So let us look at that aspect.
    But if we make it as if the mistake of claiming a refund always comes from the claimant but not from the tax authorities, then the point he is raising is solid. We have in mind that, the mistake might come from the tax authorities themselves but later, they would detect that it is not an intention of the taxpayer to claim that money fraudulently.
    In that case, for one holding that fund for that period, it attracts a penalty of one hundred per cent, that is why the amount has been doubled. That is the intention of the amendment that we are proposing here.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
    Hon Chairman, just to help us, if the fault is not the taxpayer's, should he still pay a penalty?
    Mr Avedzi 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, he should because, he might hold that money for, as you said, maybe, a year or two or more.
    Dr Prempeh 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the intro- duction of the fault itself tells us that, we have to step this down and reconstruct it so that we can take both legs into cognizance.
    This is because if for no fault of mine they have given me money I did not even know of, and five years down the line, they have found out that they gave me money that I did not deserve and because of that they are charging me a penalty of twice the amount, what about the person who sat in GRA who did not do his work well and gave me the payment? If the intention is what my senior Colleague has just said, then that makes it more important that, we step this down and go and talk about it very well.
    But whatever it is, the current value of that money should be plus the penalty.
    Mr Chireh 11:50 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, my Friend's concern, if I get him, is about the quantum of what the person should pay. Now, if we look at the provision, it says that, he would pay double the amount that, he claimed. So it is not a penalty unit separate from the amount; it is the amount that was claimed that would be doubled. If he does not want the amount; to be doubled, should it be quadrupled or what?
    So the issue is not about the intention. In fact, the Chairman's explanation is not correct.
    In most of these things, we should have really said, “who knowingly . . .” This is because in our laws, we have to prove the intention of the person to make a false or a bad claim, or a claim that he is not entitled to.
    So if it is that one, if he wants us to double or quadruple the amount claimed, he should say so. But the provision as it is amended by the Hon Chairman is cor- rect. He should not be talking about two separate things, the amount together with the interest. In fact, the amount is one and the doubling is the extra.
    Dr Prempeh noon
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Yieleh Chireh will not listen -- Now he is moving away from his seat -- And he wants to also come into this same discus- sion. All I am saying is that -- [Inter- ruption] -- If somebody claims falsely a thousand Ghana cedis today and in seven years' time the Ghana Revenue Authority (GRA) finds out that he claimed it false- ly and moves to collect just double the amount, he would be paying to the GRA two thousand Ghana cedis.
    But what about the value of the thou- sand cedis that is currently not thousand cedis? After seven years, a thousand Ghana cedis has a different value from
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
    Hon
    Member, you could also have introduced that amendment, could you not?
    Dr Prempeh noon
    Mr Speaker, it was stood down with the understanding that they would call us, so that we could discuss it. They have not. That is why I am saying that, this could not have just appeared. Last Friday, the Hon Deputy Minister for Finance called me aside and I explained and he said it would be taken care of.
    The same amendment has not even been -- The issue he raised that made us to stand it down has not even been ad- dressed by the Hon First Deputy Speaker who was sitting in the Chair. It has not been addressed because we have not been called. That is the whole issue.
    Mr Haruna Iddrisu noon
    Mr Speaker, I am minded to support the Hon Gifty Eugene Kusi on this matter.
    rose
    Mr Iddrisu noon
    It appears that the Hon Chairman of the Committee is labouring to explain improperly with the new rendition that he is coming up with --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
    Yes, Hon Member, do you have a point of order?
    Ms Safo noon
    Yes, Mr Speaker. I heard Hon Haruna Iddrisu refer to someone in the House as “Eugene” -- [Interruption] -- I know Mrs Eugenia Kusi. Mr Speaker, “Eugene” is for a man and I do not recall us having “Mrs Eugene Kusi” in the House so he should come again.
    Mr Iddrisu noon
    Mr Speaker, the person I am referring to knows herself; she is “Gifty Eugenia Kusi” that is what I said. In fact, I was reading directly to be sure that I do not miss the name of the former Hon Chairman of the Committee on Mines and Energy. But be that as it may, Mr Speaker, I think that the original rendi- tion in the Bill -- (13) -- We are seeking to look for an explanation for the word “improperly”.
    I believe that we may be looking for one or two alternatives -- Unjustified claim -- Where the claim is unjustified or where the claim is undeserving. That is the intention of the Hon Chairman in wanting to seek an amendment to it -- [Interruption] -- No, when he makes the claim unjustifiably.
    We are not going to attribute those claims to administrative errors and others. When the person makes a claim that the person does not deserve, I think that is where we are and I do not see anything wrong with what is here except for us to substitute the word “improperly”, then the rendition can stand as it is.
    I thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mrs Gifty Kusi noon
    Mr Speaker, I would want to help the Hon Chairman. If we remove “makes a” and put “claims” --
    “Claims for a refund for which that person is not entitled”.
    That is all right. But if we say “makes” it means maybe, the person has an in-
    tention or he has not made it. But if we remove the “makes a claim” and say “A person who claims a refund which that person is not entitled to” then we remove the “makes”.
    Mr Mahama Ayariga noon
    Mr Speaker, I think that, yes, we need to define what the issue is. [Interruption.] No, I think Hon Prempeh is talking about the quantum of the penalty; is that all right? But the Hon Chairman seeks to deal with the proper definition of “improperly”. So let us be clear on what we have agreed.
    If we have agreed on the replacement of “improperly” with “makes a claim for refund which that person is not entitled to”, then we resolve that, issue. Then we move on to resolve the issue of whether or not the penalty is adequate or inadequate. I think that, that clarification should be made. Otherwise, the debate seems to be swinging between the two issues and it further confuses us, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
    Indeed, I could not have agreed with you more. There are two issues in this clause 30 (13) -- The “improperly” and also the quantum -- This amendment by the Hon Chairman is silent on the quantum. We are told, and I also recollect that, at the last adjourned date, the Hon First Deputy Speaker adjourned so that they would put their heads together as regards --
    Some people were suggesting double plus penalty plus interest -- There were all kinds of suggestions which was adequate. That has not been addressed at all, Hon Chairman --
    Mr Avedzi noon
    Mr Speaker, we have not addressed that issue. That is why I think we should further step it down and look at a rendition that would cover that as well. So we can move to the next one.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu noon
    Mr Speaker, while we are in the process of reconsider- ation, may I suggest to the Hon Chairman that for line (2), I guess the better rendition would be -- “liable to”, not “liable for a penalty” -- While they are considering the correct rendition of that clause.
    Dr A. A. Osei noon
    Mr Speaker, while I agree with the Hon Chairman, this point keeps coming up. Mr Speaker, it is a very major Bill that we are going through. It would help greatly, if at least, one of the Hon Ministers from the Ministry is here. Last time, we said we would put our heads together; we did not put our heads together and we are running into all these problems.
    So I would appeal to the Hon Deputy Majority Leader; we talked about this last week. Let us have at least one of them here, preferably the Hon Minister himself so that, at least, we can sort out these things. Otherwise, I am wondering if it is a major --
    Mr Agbesi noon
    Mr Speaker, I made my position clear the other day. That, the prin- ciple behind this clause, I do not support it; I made it clear. Somebody makes a claim and he is processed -- [Interruption] -- at the end of the day, we punish the person for claiming the money. That is what I did not agree with.
    Dr A. A. Osei noon
    I am not sure the Hon Deputy Majority Leader was listening; we have stepped it down.
    Mr Agbesi noon
    Sorry, I did not follow your question -- [Laughter.]
    Dr A. A. Osei noon
    Now it is a more se- rious issue that we are talking about. As the current Acting Leader of Government Business -- the issue about having an Hon Minister from the Ministry physically present as we deal with the Bill-- You
    Mr Agbesi noon
    Mr Speaker, sorry, but if it is the issue of the presence of the Hon Minister, we have called him and he is coming. The Hon Minister is coming --
    Mr Mahama Ayariga 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, while you grant the request for the matter to be stepped down, I think when they go to consider the new rendition, they should take on board some two concerns I also have. One is, attempting to make the claim and the penalty that would follow; and the person makes the claim and is actually been paid the amount.
    This is because, as the rendition now, there is confusion between somebody who just makes a claim and is caught from the records, and somebody who has made the claim and has actually succeeded in getting the money. The Hon Member talked about how if, after several years, he has done business with that money and it is finally detected that he made the claim, the money was actually paid to that person and then subsequently --
    So the group should take on board these two issues and define them. This is because we are dealing with criminal matters and once we are dealing with criminal matters, I think the offence has to be clearly defined.
    Mr Ben Abdallah Banda 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speak- er, I know that you have advised that we should step this provision down. But I believe what has brought about this whole controversy is the replacement of “improperly” with an appropriate word. Mr Speaker, we all know that this provi- sion carries a criminal sanction and to the extent that it carries a criminal sanction,
    the claimant must be fixed with a guilty knowledge.
    But the current rendition does not seem, in my view, that the claimant is be- ing fixed with a guilty knowledge. So Mr Speaker, I would like to suggest that the rephrasing of the provision goes this way:
    “A person who makes a claim for a refund knowing that he is not enti- tled, that person is liable to a penalty equal to …”
    If we bring the word “know”, that would presuppose that the person already has guilty knowledge before the person makes the claim for refund.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, Hon Chairman, Hon Deputy Majority Leader, what was raised by Dr A. A. Osei is of great concern in my view. This is because, this basically is a Government Bill and it would be very useful if one of the Ministers -- there are three Ministers in that Ministry; one of them should be present so that we can be sure of what we are doing, or are taking into account, is also a general policy and the thinking of the Executive.
    Otherwise, we would find ourselves in a situation where we pass a Bill, it goes to the Presidency and then he does not sign it because, it does not actually reflect -- or he can at least answer some of the questions we are asking.
    I do not know, Hon Minority Leader, I am not minded to proceed. There is a difficulty. If the Hon Minister is sitting down and even does not say anything, at least, we know that the Minister or his two deputies are sitting down.
    I would want to hear from the Hon Member for Sekondi, whether we should proceed or maybe we should just --
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not intend to usurp your Chair, but since you ask for my opinion, I believe that in matters like this, it is important that the Minister is present. But I also recognise that there may be genuine difficulties. As of now, nothing has been said, but this is an important Bill, a VAT Bill; it is so important.
    So I would urge the Hon Majority Leader to get one of them to be here. It is important to get one of them to be here; it is important that on some of these matters, the Minister also expresses his view.
    Mr Agbesi 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have already informed the House that the Hon Minister and his team -- Indeed, the Min- istry personnel are behind, but the Minister himself is coming. That is what we say as we progress and by a certain time, if he is not here, we would advise accordingly. But they are coming.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Yieleh Chireh-- Let me say that the rea- son why I am allowing so many people to express their opinion is that -- I hope that the Hon Minister is on his way because there is no clause that is not important and I believe that every Act is serious and this is very serious.
    Mr Chireh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at the Bill, this is a very important Bill which we were told needs to be passed in order that we factor it into the Budget. Unless the issues we are talking about have something to do with policy, in which case, the amendments that have been listed -- Let us take those which do not have any policy implication and then those which deal with grammar like this one that we have been talking about --
    But for those which require policy de- cision, we need the Hon Minister to say, “I understand this”. So I would plead with
    my Hon Colleagues to look at the issue and allow us to make some progress. Whenev- er we reach a point that everybody thinks the Hon Minister ought to say something, we can stop.
    Dr Prempeh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the best way out is for us to adjourn for some minutes and reconvene at a particular time, so that the issues that we are talking about and for which reason, the officials are here, we can deal with them while we wait for the Hon Minister.
    If we adjourn for an hour; it is 12.15 p.m.; By 1.15p.m if they are here; Mr Speaker, to go on with those issues that we have stepped down, to raise the issues again after you have ruled that we should suspend -- The next clause has even more problems than the one we -- This is because it was also the part we stepped down for us to discuss and it has appeared in the same form for the third time.
    Mr Speaker, so clause 38 as advertised is one of the things that we have to discuss because the same issues arise in clause 38. Mr Speaker, we would continue to stand it down till somebody stands up to speak for the Hon Minister. Why not adjourn for an hour so that we can go and do good business and reconvene when they come?
    Mrs Kusi 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, since they have stood that down, they should also look at clause 40 (c); it also talks about “improperly claiming”, so if they change that one they should also change this. I am just drawing their attention to that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    I have considered Hon Chireh's proposal very seriously. But when I look at page (4), the only part that I can say does not -- I may be wrong -- involve any policy is clause 43, renumbered as clause 42. Apart from the renumbering, every single clause there in my view has policy implications. I stand to be corrected. So as we proceed, we would notice that every single one we have -- And when we change one, it has

    implications for the other ones.

    But I am prepared, we are still waiting for the Hon Minister so -- At a certain point, I saw the Hon Member on her feet; I have recognised you.
    Ms Adwoa Safo 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as we step section 30 and other ones down and we wait for the Hon Minister, I would want to provide further information to the House. Last Friday, the issue cropped up as to whether terminology for defining penalties was penalty points or penalty units and Mr Speaker, the relevant law in respect of this matter is the fines Penalty Units Act 2000, Act 572. Mr Speaker, this is because the Chairman insisted that the draftpersons provided them with penalty points, but other Hon Members insisted that it was penalty units.
    The relevant section reads and with your permission I quote:
    “Section 1 --
    Where in any enactment, provision is made for the imposition of a fine as a penalty for the contravention of any provision in the enactment the amount of the fine shall be expressed in terms of a number of penalty units.”
    So the terminology, Mr Speaker, is penalty units and not penalty points.
    Mr Chireh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we can skirt around the issue, as you said, I have heard my Hon Colleagues say that changing the word from “improper” to “not entitled” --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    I am sorry, I did not hear you.
    Mr Chireh 12:20 p.m.
    I am saying that when the debate was going on about the change, the
    argument was made that, we should leave the word “improper” there but the word “improper” is difficult to define. I have also heard some people say we should put “knowingly” but our legislation does not require one to put those words there.
    Indeed, it is assumed that the person is making a claim and in that sentence “not entitled to”, which means that the person is presumed to know that he was not entitled and he made the claim. So, the presump- tion of guilty mind is covered.
    Now, I also would want us to say that,
    the proposed amendment by the Hon Chairman in terms of the change of the word is correct. It is the quantum of the penalty that is an issue. No matter what we do, we need to resolve that problem. All I said was, if one thinks the person has claimed money for so many years, what do we want him to pay?
    The Hon Member, who is not listening to me now, but talking to somebody else, said this. But I am saying that, if he knows the quantum that he wants us to put there, he should say it. If he says the amount should be quadrupled, fine.
    Now, finally, to the lady there who referred us to the Fines Act [An Hon Member: Which lady?] -- The young lady, Hon Sarfo --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Under the Standing Orders --
    Mr Chireh 12:20 p.m.
    Yes -- my Hon Colleague opposite.
    Now, the argument is not about --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, do you want to --
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have made a request earlier that we should stand it
    down, so that we would have further con- sultation but we kept debating it over and over. Mr Speaker, if you would permit us to stand it down so that all Hon Members who have issues about this should meet.
    So, Mr Speaker, we can move to clause
    38.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you pointed out to us to an issue that could still create a problem. This is because, clause 38 also needs a bit of consultation. As you said, the only one that may not need -- all he has to do is to do clause 42 and perhaps, we can adjourn. This is because, even when the Hon Minister comes, he needs to take his time and look at the issues carefully. Given the time -- That will be my -- in his support that we allow him -- I am told he is on his way but it is, tight-time.
    But he may want to meet with the Hon Chairman and go through this properly so that when we come tomorrow, we have no issues there. This is because if we rush it, otherwise we would run into more problems. So, I would want to crave your indulgence. Clause 42 is minor.
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, let us take clauses 42 and 43. Question to be put on clause 42.
    Clause 42 -- Person acting in repre- sentative capacity.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to follow the Hon Chairman. We have preceded the clause 42 with clause 43, is that it?
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, because we are renaming clause 43 as clause 42, it will take care of that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    But Hon Chairman, before we get to clause 42,
    there are clauses 38 and 40. Would you formally stand those two down? Have you done it already so that it would reflect in our records that those two have formally been stood down?
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, accordingly, I have stood those ones down.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Which ones, please?
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Clauses 38 and 40.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Then I would put the Question on clause 42.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 43 -- Declaration of repre- sentative
    Mr Avedzi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 43 -- Renumber as “clause 42”.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just a bit of cleaning up.
    First, if clause 43 becomes 42, we need to look at the last line: “A taxable person for the purposes of section 42.” That construction would have to be tidied up.
    Mr Speaker, then, the original clause 42 follows after that new clause 42. In this case, what is here becomes clause 42(1) and the original clause 42 then becomes 42(2). Then we continue down like that. This is because it refers to the Interpreta- tion that “In this section representatives in relation to a taxable person means…” Other than that, we could say “in section 42, representatives in relation to a taxable person means…”
    So, we have to tidy up that construc- tion, that is, the opening of the original clause 42 and the closing line in original
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, with respect to both you and the Hon Minority Leader, these are mat- ters that the draftsperson can take care of -- numbering and so on. I do not think they are matters that we need to -- Is it not numbering?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe the Hon Chairman understands what I have said. So, I would leave it at that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, should we leave it to the draft- sperson?
    Hon Dr Prempeh is vehemently op- posed to that suggestion.
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am oppos- ing that suggesting for two reasons. One, it is not just clause 42 going back to clause 41 and clause 41 going into clause 42. That is not it. There were parts of clause 42 that we agreed here, should be changed in the opening sentence. That has not even been reflected here.
    If it is just renumbering, let us do those changes that the Hon Minority Leader said and then instruct the Table Office or the draftsperson to make the necessary numbering and renumbering. But as to calling it clause 42, by the time we start from clause 1 to clause 42, this might not even be clause 42. So, let us do what we are supposed to do and then ask them to rearrange it in order.
    Mr Avedzi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, for the pur- poses of the Bill we are doing, we would
    move that provision but the drafts- persons doing the numbering would then assign the appropriate number to that particular clause or subclause when it fits. For us to understand, we are saying that we should renumber the clause 43 as clause 42. But when they are doing the numbering it might not be clause 42 again, it would be a different thing altogether.
    Question put and amendment agreed
    to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, even the simplest of clauses, the one that I thought was so simple generated some debate. I think that from the way we are proceeding, perhaps, you would want to meet with the various parties so that you come back -- I do not know.
    Mr Avedzi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is another amendment to clause 43 which I would want to move.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 43 , lines 1 and 2, delete “if the Commis- sioner-General considers it necessary to do so”.
    The new rendition would read as follows:
    “The Commissioner-General may declare a person to be a represen-ta- tive of a taxable person.”
    Mr Speaker, “for that purpose section 42”, should be deleted accordingly.
    Dr Prempeh 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he talked about three things at the same time; if he can take his time so that we can follow and also do the amendments.
    Mr Avedzi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 43, lines 1 and 2, delete “if
    the Commissioner-General considers it necessary to do so”.
    Further in line 3, delete “for the pur- poses of section 42.”
    So the new rendition would be:
    “The Commissioner-General may declare a person to be a represen-ta- tive of a taxable person.”
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 43 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    I have an indication from the Hon Chairman.
    Hon Chairman, you have spoken to me with signs, I would want you to say it in plain language. I understand your coded language but I would want everybody else to understand.
    Mr Avedzi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you really understood my coded language, then we should move to clause 44.
    Dr Prempeh 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the clause 44 that the Hon Chairman wants us to go to, deals with interpretation and there are many words that, as we went along, we said should be defined which even have not appeared yet on the Order Paper. So, I do not know-- I should not just say “bring it”, it is not just “so bring it”. So we should stand it down, finish and then come.
    Mr Speaker, it is very key because interpretation has direct consequences on the clauses and subclauses we have so defined. It is very important so maybe we should step it down, go and do -- The
    longer we Sit here -- The Ministers are not coming. We could have been doing the winnowing and would have reached a consensus for the next day.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, what I wonder is why it never happens. The same thing comes back the next day. So this time, please, I would direct that you meet in your office immedi- ately after closing, for the purposes of win- nowing or for the purposes of resolving the various -- If Hon Prempeh, Hon Bamba and other Hon Members who have shown views do not go to the Chairman's office, tomorrow, I would inform the Speaker, if they come we would not -- [Interruption] -- The Hon Chairman would be there.
    The Hon Chairman has assured me that from here, he is moving straight to his of- fice. He would wait for all Hon Members who have strong views on any provision, then they will go and amend them.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, may I crave your indulgence that you go further and ensure that at least one Minister is around, so that we do not come back to the same -- even for winnowing. This is because if we just leave it to strong opin- ions and a problem comes and they have to give guidelines -- it is too major a Bill not to have somebody represent them at the winnowing, so that we can sort out all these difficulties.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    I have confidence in the Chairman, so I am sure that would try and ensure that at least one Minister is present.
    Hon Chairman, I believe you have the
    power to summon an Hon Minister to appear before you. I would want you to exercise that power.
    Mr Agbesi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Min- ister himself spoke to me a few minutes ago and said that he has instructed one of the Deputies to be here. It is about twen- ty minutes when he spoke to me and the Deputy is not here.
    In the circumstances, I believe that this is the appropriate time to adjourn the House.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    This
    brings us to the end of the Consideration Stage of the Value Added Tax Bill.
    The Motion to adjourn the House has been moved by the Deputy Majority Lead- er. Any seconder?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    I thought it could not be moved during the Consideration Stage.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Any seconder?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    Which motion is that? [An Hon Member: Adjournment.] Till when? Do not say “Adjourned”, period. I would want to know when we are ad- journing to.
    Mr Alfred K. Agbesi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that the House do adjourn till tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.
    Dr Anthony A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, on behalf of Leadership, I beg to second the Motion-- [Interruption] -- They are supposed to do it but they are not here, so I am doing it on their behalf.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    ADJOURNMENT 12:30 p.m.

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