Debates of 6 Feb 2015

MR SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:50 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members, Correction of Votes and Proceedings.
Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members, there is no Official Report, so, we will move on.
Where is the Chairman of the Business Committee?
Hon Majority Chief Whip?
Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, he is on his way. But if you would permit me as a member of the Committee, I will go ahead and do it on his behalf.
Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Very well.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members, any comment on the Business Statement?
Hon Members, the Business Statement for the Second Week ending Friday, 13th February, 2015 is accordingly adopted.
Hon Members, I have admitted one ceremonial Statement to be made by the Hon Deputy Minister for Gender, Children and Social Protection.
STATEMENTS 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member?
Ms Grace Addo (NPP-Manso- Nkwanta) 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to contribute to the Statement ably made by my Colleague, the Hon Deputy Minister on the other side.
Mr Speaker, in Ghana, Female Genital Mutilation, known as FGM, is practised the most in those areas which have already been mentioned -- Upper East and Upper West Regions. We are all aware that it is not the best. As she has put it, it looks as if it is practised only in Africa and Ghana. But when you look into the books and you go into history, we do have such practices in the United States of America.
Mr Speaker, I believe that it is time that we all came together and looked at the situation. I think it is not the best; it is also violence against women.
We cannot get these things done while females are not being protected. So, Mr Speaker, as I contribute in support of the Statement, I also urge all and sundry that we come together, more so, our male counterparts, to support the women as we fight this particular menace against women.
Thank you Mr Speaker, and I thank the Hon Deputy Minister who made the Statement.
Mr Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Let me balance it in terms of gender.
Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Joseph Yieleh Chireh (NDC--Wa West) 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, let me first commend the Hon Deputy Minister for making the Statement, and also say that despite the comments being made by the Minority Leadership here, I still qualify to make a comment because -- [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon Deputy Minority Leader?
Mr Dominic B.A. Nitiwul 11:15 a.m.
On a point of correction.
Mr Speaker, no Member of the Minority leadership has made a comment, and you can attest to that. Did anybody make a comment in this House? So, why is he accusing the leadership of the Minority of making comments? If maybe, he has a confession to make, it will help us.
Mr Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon Member, please, continue.
Mr Chireh 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, they said; “why am I rising to speak? Are you a woman?” That is what they asked.
I have a daughter; I have a wife; and I have sisters and nieces who have undergone this brutal practice. What I would also like to emphasise is that, they mentioned the Upper West Region among the regions where it is mainly practised.

The Hon Deputy Minister referred to a law which was passed by this Parliament. Those of you who were not here, you do not know that there was a law which was passed by this Parliament. I am telling you; a law has been passed here, and the sentence for those who commit the offence was spelt out clearly.

Enforcement is the issue; and just as all other offences that are against women, people want to settle them. If there are teenage pregnancies, that is, young women in schools who have been impregnated by treacherous men, people want them to be settled at the level of the family; people intervene.
Some Hon Members 11:15 a.m.
Less sensitive.
Mr Chireh 11:15 a.m.
No! It is not about less sensitive. They believe that it will make the woman more faithful. That is not correct. The whole idea is about the mind. People can imagine things. Some of the things that are being practised are done under very unhygienic situations, which can lead to other complications.
That is why I would urge all of you, male or female, your religious views notwithstanding, to let us ensure that this law is properly enforced. On occasions like this, we should bring a name list to shame those who continue to practise it under any pretext.
Thank you.
Dr Hanna Louisa Bisiw (NDC--Tano South) (MP) 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Statement made on the floor of the House by the Hon Deputy Minister for Gender, Children and Social Protection.
Mr Speaker, it is about FGM. I realise that this is something that is a bit uncomfortable for some of our male counterparts, but for we the women, it is an aspect to look at.
What is Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)? Mr Speaker, it is the exercise of -- [Interruptions.] Yes, the clitoris of the female is removed. We need to understand that, and the whole aspect is how to make the female not too sensitive.
Mr Speaker, there are Members of Parliament who have confessed that they have been with wives who have gone through that cruel exercise, and to them, they become less sensitive.
As women, we think this is cruel. Even with male circumcision, we know that it is not all males who do it, and it is not natural for anybody to circumcise a woman. We feel that on this day that the United Nations has set aside to say zero tolerance for FGM, as Members of Parliament -- The Hon Deputy Minister said there is a law. I cannot quote the law, but if there is a law, I think that the first thing we have to do, is to enforce it.
We need to also engage opinion leaders, because when we go to these areas where they practise the FGM, sometimes, it is cultural, or religious and sometimes, it is for the selfish gain of men.
We think that if the women are left with their clitoris intact, they may be more sensitive. Some of them think that when they have that sexual organ on them, it is going to lead them to some sort of improper behaviour.
We think that better things can be done, because those who practise this exercise -- we cannot even ensure that our girls go through this exercise with the necessary sanitary conditions; not to talk about all the infections that they may get, which may lead to infertility or to their early death.
So, we would appeal to all the authorities, that is Members of Parliament, both men and women, to join our voices to say, no to FGM, and that women also have the right to have the same sexual sensation (SS) as men.
So, everything that God gave to women must be maintained.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Last comment.
Yes, Hon Majority Chief Whip?
Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka (NDC -- Asawase) 11:25 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to this Statement. This Statement is very important for us to annually make conscious efforts to drum home to our populace, the effects of FGM.
Mr Speaker, whereas the circumcision of males have been proved medically to be beneficial, there is no scientific basis to show that FGM has any health benefits. Mr Speaker, it has no health benefit at all. And any time it is mentioned, people downplay it as if it is not a serious problem.
Mr Speaker, it is said that it is happening more in the developing countries. But Mr Speaker, let me give some statistics.
Some Hon Members 11:25 a.m.
Source? Source?
Alhaji Muntaka 11:25 a.m.
It is reported that 1,946 cases were recorded. For my Hon Colleagues who asked of the source, a female European Member of Parliament made the statement on the floor of the European Union (EU) Parliament. And this figure was quoted from her statement. If Hon Members want her name, they can see me later.
rose
Mr Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Hon Isaac Kwame Asiamah?
Mr I. K. Asiamah 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it would be fair for the Hon Majority Chief Whip to produce the name of the person he made reference to. It is not an issue of whether we want it; it is his duty to provide us with the name, so that we can go and check from the Hansard and for the records of this House.
Mr Speaker 11:25 a.m.
What is important is the source. He said it was a statement on the floor of the European Union (EU) Parliament.
Mr I. K. Asiamah 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, by whom? The name of the person who said it is relevant.
Mr Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Hon Majority Chief Whip, I believe if you can give us the period in which the statement was made, it will be enough reference point.
Alhaji Muntaka 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I will give her name. I am not very good at pronouncing names. Mr Speaker, her name is Hilde Vautmans. This is the name of the Member of Parliament who made the statement in the EU Parliament yesterday. The figure she gave was 1,946 in the UK alone -- between September and December, 2014. It was captured by their National Health Centre.
Mr Speaker, in the United States of America (USA), the Centre for Disease Control has given the figure of 513,000 as at 2015. Since 1997, the figure has risen from 168,000 to 513,000. It is also estimated by the United Nations that about 140 million girls round the world have gone through this practice. If care is not taken and campaign against it is not intensified, it is estimated that by 2030, an additional 83 million females may go through this practice.
Mr Speaker, I am giving the statistics to point to the fact that, when the Statement was being made, we all down- played it as if it is not happening in our neighbourhoods or communities; it may not be a reality.
Mr Speaker, with this information from even the developed countries where the figures are supposed to be small, look at the numbers. It shows that in Africa and parts of Asia or in most developing countries, the figures may be alarming.
Mr Speaker, what are some of the effects of FGM on women? It is said by the WHO that some of the common diseases that the female can contract by just going through this practice are Urinary Tract Infections (UTIs), infertility, and post-trauma stress, that is, if she survives. In worst cases, she can bleed to death.
Mr Speaker, I believe that law is not just enough. To just pass a law and assume that once it is passed, it is enough to take care of the situation, is not enough. I believe as Hon Members of Parliament, we have a responsibility to our constituents to make bare the fact that there are not health benefits to it. So, the other issues that are being used as against the effect or the likely consequences of the practice warrant that we just stop it without the law chasing us.
So, Mr Speaker, I would want to also take the opportunity to congratulate my Hon Colleague, the Hon Deputy Minister for Gender, Children and Social Protection for making this Statement. I would urge my Hon Colleagues not to play with the effects of this act. This is because, sisters, children, wives and neighbours may be suffering unnecessarily from this practice.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Statement.
Mr Dominic B. A. Nitiwul (NPP -- Bimbilla) 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to say a few words in support of the Statement.
Mr Speaker, the frightening statistics given by the Hon Majority Chief Whip and what is known to me have gingered me to rise to contribute. This is because this practice of FGM really places our young women in serious danger. I would want to congratulate Ghana for the efforts it has made towards eradicating this practice.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:35 a.m.
They were circumcised?
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Females who were circumcised -- [Laughter.] But the new term -- They called it circumcision. Mr Speaker, until 1929, when they changed it to mutilation, because it became a serious health hazard. Otherwise, it was compared to male circumcision until 1929.

Mr Speaker, I have given them; it is on Wikipedia. So, Hon Members can google it. Ghana has 4 per cent of females between the ages of 15 years and 49 years.

Mr Speaker, for those between the ages of zero years and 14 years, as at November, Wikipedia still says that Mali has 74 per cent. It is not decreasing. So, so they are still doing it. It is 74 per cent as we sit today; they are still doing it.

The Gambia, 56 per cent; Guinea, 46 per cent; Somalia, 46 per cent; Guinea Bissau, 39 per cent; Chad, 18 per cent; and Ghana, 1 per cent. It means we are still doing it. But at least, the percentage is coming down. Let me urge Government to have a target of eradicating it forever by 2020.

We should have our target, whether we will motivate people to stop or we legislate, as we have done, or we ensure that we enforce our laws. Whatever we must do, we must set a target for ourselves and say that by 2020, Ghana should report zero per cent; that is between the ages of 0 to 7 years, because between now and 2020, we have six years. Any child born today six years by 2020 -- it should be zero per cent.

Mr Speaker, it is important for our people to realise that the biggest nerve centre of a human body, the sensitive ones, that is associated with sex are found not in a man's organ, but in the clitoris of the woman --
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Deputy Minority Leader, what did you say?
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, ask anybody who read biology.
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
No, I want to hear what you said because -- [Laughter.]
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I have learnt from my friend the Hon Member for Tamale South that words matter. When he said “adumdum adumdum begyae” -- Words matter. So, Mr Speaker, I have said that if you go to the field of biology -- anybody who has read biology would tell you that the concentration of nerves that has to do with sensitivity, is more concentrated in the woman's organ than that of the man. [Interruptions.]
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member for Old Tafo?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, this is a very serious Statement, which requires scientific proof. There are people here to learn from us, so, we cannot make these blatant statements without supporting evidence. It is a scientific matter and not an opinion. So, if he can give us the bases for the empirical evidence -- [Interruptions.]
No! He says biology, but what biology? Mr Speaker, biology does not say that. I challenge that statement he is making. Unless he has support, I think he should just withdraw it.
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Did you study biology?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker --
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Did you study biology? [Laughter.]
Dr A. A. Osei 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, in Achimota Secondary School, you do not have a choice.
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Up to what level? [Interruptions.]
Hon Member for Old Tafo, up to what level?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:35 a.m.
Up to General School Leaving Certificate level, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Anyway. On a more serious note, Hon Member, he wants you to substantiate the basis of the statement you made. Just for the records.
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is true. It is the truth. But I think someone wants to make a statement.
rose
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Do you want to assist?
Mr Agyarko 11:35 a.m.
Respectfully, Mr Speaker, I would want to submit that the statement made by the Hon Deputy Minority Leader is a fact. It is science, and if you ask, I studied Human Physiology up to Level 400 in the university.
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
So, Mr Speaker, it is inhuman and ungodly to tamper, whether partially or wholly, with the woman's genitals. It was not meant to be so.
Dr A. A. Osei 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, when Hon Agyarko went to the university, there was no Level 400. [Laughter.]
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
He is trying to modernise it, so -- yes -- you know -- [Laughter.]
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, Hon Agyarko is right. At that time, the Hon Minority Leader, who also went to the Kwame Nkrumah University of Science and Technology (KNUST), says Pharmacy was four years. So, he is right.
Mr Speaker, whether partially or wholly, the removal of a woman's genital --
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
But Hon Minority Leader, that time at KNUST, did you refer to Level 100, 200, 300 and 400? [Interruptions.]
Absolutely! Yes, Hon Member, conclude.
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker, just to say that it is a serious problem, and we should be the first country, just as we are the first country in sub-Saharan Africa to gain
independence, to be able to say that we have arrived, we now have zero per cent of FGM, and our people do not do it any longer. We must motivate our people to stop it. We must educate them, and enforce the laws.
Let us combine all the efforts, because as you said, with some, it is cultural, and with others, it is religious. Some people do not just understand it and then they go ahead to do it. We should be more aggressive in stopping it. We can only do that when we set targets for ourselves and ensure that by 2020 to 2025, we do not have this thing any longer. It is not equivalent to male circumcision.

Baba Jamal Mohammed Ahmed -- rose --
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Deputy Minister, do you have a point of order?
What is your point of order?

Let us not allow our men to just jump on their women. Let us tell the men that before they go to the woman, they need to prepare her. They need to give her some psychological mood before they go in there. But to create the impression that it is all about an organ, and then just jump there, Mr Speaker --
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Deputy Minister -- Hon Deputy Minority Leader, is that the impression you created, because I did not get that impression?
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, this is the “agama lizard” type of thing the Hon Member is bringing. When a student studied the agama lizard and they asked him about a bird, he started to talk about a tree and then agama lizard. I never mentioned sex.
Mr Speaker, throughout my contri- bution, I did not talk about sex. I said the organ should not be mutilated, because it punishes the person, and makes her not to be sensitive enough to do a lot of things, including what he has just talked about -- sex. [Laughter.] But I never talked about sex, preparation and not preparing and that kind of stuff.
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Deputy Minority Leader, conclude. Your last sentence.
Mr Nitiwul 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on a more serious note, let us as a country make sure that next year, that one per cent is reduced to zero per cent. Wherever that practice is being done, let us, the Government and the religious leaders make it a policy to ensure that it stops once and for all.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much.
rose
Mr Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Members, you know I was managing the House, and I have moved to the Leaders? You did not give the inclination early on that you wanted to express or pass any comment. So, let us end the Statement here; if people have interest in the topic, they can bring it back on another day.
Alhaji Muntaka 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would be grateful, if we could go straight to item number 12.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Deputy Minority Leader?
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if you listened, it is a serious matter.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
No, please.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is public matter too, so, I would want to crave your indulgence for him to raise something.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
No, please. Is it about the Correction of Votes and Proceedings?
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Yes.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Today, we did not correct Votes and Proceedings. So, if there is something that we have already correcred, we can look for another opportunity to sort it out.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, by our practice and convention, just before we get to the public business, we can raise it. Mr Speaker, it is not a political matter.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
No! This is a House of debate. I am not worried whether it is a political matter. We are going according to the rules of the House.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we have been doing that and you have the authority to vary it.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, I can relax the rules but I have to be informed. If you are coming under Statements, I have to be informed. Do not spring a surprise on the Chair.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is in the interest of this House and the nation.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
I do not have the Official Report that you are holding in your hand. That is why you should have sorted this out with me on Tuesday.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I can give it to you -- 3rd February, 2015. He has to point it out to you. Mr Speaker, it is in the interest of this House and the nation that he has to --
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
I do not have a problem at all but I ought to know what it is about. No prior notice had been given to me.
Mr Alexander K. Afenyo-Markin 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with respect, it is just in connection with the Cabinet. Mr Speaker, page 2 of the Official Report of Tuesday, 3rd February, 2015.
Mr Speaker, on page 2, we have Cabinet Ministers and with respect, it is 20. Mr Speaker, our Constitution is very clear on the maximum number of Ministers who can form Cabinet. With your leave, Mr Speaker, article 76 (1) is very clear. It states:
“There shall be a Cabinet which shall consist of the President, the Vice-President and not less than ten and not more than nineteen Ministers of State.”
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Member, I do not think that this is a matter that we should - - You have drawn my attention to it. It

could be that the mistake is from those who printed the Hansard. That is why it is better to sort these matters out first and then we find out where the problem is coming from. It is a constitutional matter and always the Constitution will prevail. I will give you the opportunity to have it done at the appropriate time. So, let us check the records.
Mr Afenyo-Markin 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I thank you. That is why I wanted to seek your --
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
I will give you the opportunity on Tuesday after we have resolved it. [Laughter.]
Mr Afenyo-Markin 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am exceedingly grateful to you for that.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Very well.
Yes, Hon Deputy Minority Leader?
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, when we have conferred, you will give him that opportunity to bring up this matter, so that we are sure that --
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Do not forget that what you are questioning is the act of --
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
But Mr Speaker, this has become public information. We do not know exactly what is going on.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, we have to correct it, but we want to find out where the problem is coming from -- whether the problem is coming from here or from outside this House. It is very critical.
Mr Nitiwul 11:45 a.m.
It will be the first time that the Clerk and his Table have made a mistake like this. It has never happened.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
They always make mistakes -- [Laughter] -- And we all make mistakes. Hon Members, let us not belabour this point.
rose
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to believe that the statement that came from the Chair was rather --
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:45 a.m.
It was rather in a lighter vein. But saying that the Clerk --
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
We all make mistakes.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:45 a.m.
You said they are always --
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
I said we all make mistakes.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:45 a.m.
And you followed up by saying that they are always making mistakes. Mr Speaker, it is a serious indictment. I would want to believe that it was not meant to be so.
Mr Speaker, there have been many occasions when we wanted to verify issues when you had instructed that the relevant communication should be availed and while sitting, we have had it. I am not too sure that we require 72 hours for them to ferry that notice from wherever it is lodging to appear. They should go and bring it and we will know.
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Once the Hon Minority Leader is insisting that we should resolve this matter, I have consulted. It is a mistake from the Hansard Department. According to the information I have just got from the
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, before we have the list of Cabinet Ministers factored into our records, is it the concoction of the Table Office or the Hansard Department? Or is it the case that we have a resourced document from the President?
Mr Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I just made a statement that I have not received any official communication on this matter. I do not know where the information was got to put in the Hansard. That is the point that you are raising. It is a very valid point and that is why we need to probe where they got their information from. Maybe, an information has come, which I have not seen. So, on Tuesday, this matter will be resolved.
Let me hear the Hon Majority Chief Whip.
Alhaji Muntaka 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is exactly what I wanted to find out. This is because, I believe that we equally do not have any official information indicating who is a Cabinet Minister. If it is coming from a previous communique, Mr Speaker, the rules of this House are very clear.
This particular Official Report has already been corrected. And I would want all of us to be encouraged that when things of this nature appear to be discussed-- When you come to the floor, records that have been corrected -- I cannot go and bring the Official Report of last year, that has already been corrected to just come and say that I have something very important without anybody seeing it to raise an issue.
Mr Speaker, I think that we do not want to impugn wrong motives to what my Hon Colleague did, but I thought that it would have been better if this thing was discussed earlier like you insisted.
Mr Speaker 11:55 a.m.
Please, please.
Hon Majority Chief Whip, you are absolutely right. These Votes and Proceedings have been corrected. But the reason I have opened the floor is because it raises a constitutional issue; that is the only reason I raised it. We are all subject to the constitution.
You know I was hesitant in not giving him the chance to speak. But when I listened to him, he raised a constitutional issue. This House is subject to the Constitution, to that extent, if indeed, they are more and if there is an error with regard to a Constitutional matter, we need to correct it.
Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations?
Mr Haruna Iddrisu 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much.
I appreciate the fact that on matters that border on the Constitution, to which we all subscribe an oath, it is important that we give them the necessary attention. But just to reiterate the point you made, that this problem may be more of a human error than a communication between the Office of the President and this august House--
If you look at the same page, Mr Speaker, you will find Dr Edward Omane Boamah, by an Executive Instrument, he is now the Minister for Information and Communications. Yet, in this document, you will find “Communications”. I am just pointing out, that this is also an error, which has been noticed, which could only be blamed as a human error.
Mr Speaker, speaking, I am sure I have some experience even in Cabinet. On this particular issue, even as we await your directive, it is just the matter between the splitting of the Ministry of Petroleum Energy and Power, which is the
substantive matter in issue but without any attempt by the President or Cabinet to be in breach of the Constitution.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, first of all, nobody in this House gets up to talk without your permission. So, I keep saying that, certain people in this House should purge themselves of the allergy of impugning ill motives any time anybody says anything that does not appear to sit well with them.
What the Hon Majority Chief Whip said is clearly in a bad taste and he should purge himself of that mentality, of that allergy to anything that does not sit well with him. It is not right.
Mr Speaker, you allowed the Hon Member to talk and for him to say that it is unacceptable for anybody to resurrect a matter that has been decided upon, I deem it as an affront to the authority of the Chair. When the Chair permits a person to talk, he says that, what the person has said, should not be entertained. I think it is most unhelpful to this House.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations has given us, as related to his experience in Cabinet, can he help us bring this matter to a closure, given his vast experience in Cabinet, that he is recounting, who is in, and who is out of the 20-member Cabinet that we have?
He should bring the matter to a closure since he is relating his vast experience in Cabinet.
Thank you.
Mr Speaker 11:55 a.m.
Hon Member?
Mr H. Iddrisu 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if you reference communication from the Office of the President, ref:OP/CA dated 13th February, 2013, the Office of the President conveyed to you the list of Cabinet, and it stands by the record of it.
I will produce a copy of it to refresh the memory of Hon Members. Indicative of it is the evidence of the list, which was communicated officially to you on 13th February, 2013.
Mr Speaker 11:55 a.m.
Hon Members, we are very close to the resolution of this matter based on the information I have provided with regard to the split of one Ministry to two Ministries and the issue of which you have alluded to, of Ministries of Information and Communications coming together. The only thing now is, who is in and who is out? That is the only issue to be resolved and we will have that matter resolved on Tuesday.
Last point on this issue, Majority Chief Whip?
Alhaji Muntaka 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect to you and the Hon Minority Leader, in many fora, he had had to use these words and I took them light. But to say them to be captured in the official record, I take a serious offence to that.
I do not think like him, and I do not care what he thinks how I respond -- To say that “some people should purge themselves of some allergy”, what does he mean by that?
This is the House of debate and when he says something that I do not agree to, this House allows me the opportunity, and if I attract Mr Speaker's eyes, to also respond in the way that I think sits right, having regard to the rules of the House. He cannot say that “some people should purge themselves of some allergy.”
Allergic to what? That is the way I am, and I am not like him; so, he should not expect me to think like him. We think differently. We represent different constituencies -- and I take serious offence to that.
Mr Speaker 11:55 a.m.
Hon Majority Chief Whip, the rules of this House are very clear; if an Hon Member uses a word that you think is unparliamentary or offensive, you draw his attention to the words that you do not like and then you ask him to withdraw them because you have taken an offence or they are unparliamentary.
When you also get up and do a similar thing, then what is the basis for your complaints? Especially so, when you sit at the front Bench.
Yours is to draw my attention as the person presiding, to the language used that you have taken offence to that, and you are objecting to that. Then I will take charge of the matter. But when you also get up and take the rules into your hands as if there is nobody presiding, it is equally unparliamentary. Therefore, you put the Chair in a very difficult situation in guiding the process and guiding the proceedings on the floor of the House.
You have to draw my attention to it and take objection to the words he has used and then we pick it up from there. But now, what do you want the Chair to do?
Yes?
Alhaji Muntaka 11:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect to the Chair, I am very sorry to you and the House for fuming.
But Mr Speaker, as I said, the Hon Minority Leader himself knows -- I walk to his office severally to take a lot of
lessons from him. That shows the great respect that I have for him. But I thought that a number of times, we say to each other things behind the scenes and we all laugh over them.
My worry was the way he said it on the floor. But I am really very sorry for my response and I only hope my senior Colleague would take cognisance that we all have feelings and sometimes there are things that we may say to each other behind the scenes that may not necessarily have to be captured in the records.
Mr Speaker, with all due respect, I would be very grateful for the Hon Minority Leader to know that the use of the phrase; “some persons should purge themselves, especially, the Majority Chief Whip.” The word “allergy” sounded very offensive, in my view and I would be very grateful if that is not repeated.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Honourable, he has apologised.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:05 p.m.
I know that he has been coming to my office on several occasions; he does not come to my office severally and that is the first point. Mr Speaker, would he care to withdraw those words? That is because, he comes to my office on several occasions but I have never known him to come to my office severally. Can he recourse to that, then I will go on?
Alhaji Muntaka 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not know what the Hansard captured but I said I have been coming to his office on several occasions -- and severally, I do come to his office. Even this morning, I was in his office, all to mean that he is someone that I talk to very frequently.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, if he misconstrues “several times” to mean “severally”, I would take it as that.
Yes, I agree with him that we do not think on the same wavelength and that is why when I was talking, even though I said he was impugning wrong motives, I was not pointing fingers the way he was pointing fingers. We do not think in the same way, behave in the same way, even though as you would notice this morning, we are wearing similar attires. But our thinking and what informs our talk, clearly, is very different.
The issue that I was raising was that, he rather was impugning wrong motives to the Hon Member who had caught your eye and had been duly noticed and called to make a suggestion. That was the point that I was making.
Yes, I have been speaking this language with him behind the curtains --
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Is it the word “purging” ?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I am coming to that. I have been using the same construction behind curtains and we laugh over this. So, if he says to me that, he is offended by that and that it should not be said in public for our records, I take it in good faith. And if I have to withdraw it to repeat it behind the curtains, then I will do that. He must equally apologise.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
That is what I was going to tell him to do; he must also withdraw his statement. You were also harsh. You have already apologised but --
Alhaji Muntaka 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, like I did apologise, not only to the Hon Minority Leader, but to you and the House, if there is anything that I -- With all due respect, he is talking about my Colleague. The Minority Leader will attest to the fact that,

sometimes, when we have to raise something that we think has to be said on the floor of the House, we discuss it with him.

Today, I am on the front Bench, yet nobody discussed that with me, that this was something I had seen even though we had already discussed this, can I raise it, even for me to object? So, for my Colleague --

I did not say that Hon Afenyo-Markin had impugned wrong motives,. But I said that, he stated them as though if one is not careful, one on this side of the House would think that the person is doing it not in good faith. I did not say that by what he said, he was impugning --
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Let us make progress. If somebody has taken offence, you should also withdraw your statement so that we move forward. That is all.
Alhaji Muntaka 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, to enable us make progress, if there is anything that I have said that is offensive, I am sorry and I wish that you could direct that, it should be expunged from the records.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Yes, that is alright.
Hon Members, let us make progress, please.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:05 p.m.
Today is Friday and I would want to invite you to ask the two gentlemen to go to the mosque together; it would help.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Member for Old Tafo, you are out of order.
At the Commencement of Public Business.
Yes?
Alhaji Muntaka 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, we would be grateful if we could go straight to item number 12 on the Order Paper.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Item number 12. Very well.
Hon Members, I will give the Chair to the Hon First Deputy Speaker; but let us resolve this clause.
Yesterday, Hon Members raised some constitutional issues with regard to the sources of funds for the Agency. I will want us to deal with it and then hand over the Chair to the First Deputy Speaker.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:05 p.m.
STAGE 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Have you resolved the issues now? Hon Minority Leader, have the issues been resolved with regard to sources of funds for the Agency?
Hon Member for Wa West?
Mr Joseph Yieleh Chireh 12:05 p.m.
Thank you Mr Speaker.
This morning, the Committee or a group of people, during the winnowing, agreed to many of the things and we even directed that for ease of reference, there should be an addendum with the corrected versions. So, largely, this is what we did this morning and -- [Interruptions.] Why so many addendums; what is this? We advised that they should bring an addendum, so that we abandon the ones on the main Order Paper. They are being worked on. So, you will soon get them.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Member for Wa West, the sources of funds for the Agency under (ii) New clause. Is it the same as in the Order Paper Addendum that you are talking about, so that I can put the Question?
Mr Chireh 12:05 p.m.
No! We agreed on 10 per cent for the District Assemblies Common Fund but it is subject to the provisions of article 252.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Very well. So, that is the only difference here?
Mr Chireh 12:05 p.m.
Yes.
Mr Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Ten per cent? [Pause.] Hon Member for Wa West, should we correct the 15 per cent to 10 per cent? Very well.
Hon Members, I would now put the Question.
Yes, Hon Member for Wenchi?
Prof. George Yaw Gyan-Baffour 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, all this while, I have kept silent on this Bill because I personally do not believe that Government creates jobs. But I think that was the positon of this House, that we did not want to create a law that will exhort Government to create jobs. That has been overridden and this is going on.
The reason the sources of funds should not be written on stone is because of the fact that, the modules that these things are used for -- for instance, the one for education, varies from year to year. So, if you put a percentage on it and next year, you need more for that, then you are having difficulties. If at a certain year, you need less for it, then you will be having difficulties.
So, Mr Speaker, I think that that percentage can be a percentage of the District Assemblies Common Fund approved by the House when we are doing the formula. But not a fixed percentage because once you do that, you will make a law that actually fixes something that varies over the years and that is the reason we were using policy to do that. If in one year, you need more teachers, you can increase the percentage for teachers for Ghana Education Trust Fund (GETFund) and if one year, you need another group, which is higher, then you can change it.
But when you fix it this way, and then this year you need more teachers than what this can afford, then you have no way of getting it.
So, Mr Speaker, I would rather want us to amend that section that;
(c) A percentage of the District Assemblies Common Fund in the formula approved by Parliament in accordance with this article.
(d) A percentage of the Ghana Educational Trust Fund in the formula approved by Parliament.
So, that will allow that flexibility, that whenever you need more of this, you can always go for it, otherwise, we will have a situation where we have fixed it and we cannot be very flexible.
But Mr Speaker, the final aspect of it is that, when we do it this way, it means we have to go and amend the previous law and this is because the Distr ict Assemblies Common Fund will now reduce from 7.5 per cent to about 6 point something per cent. Mr Speaker, if we are making a law to take it aside and use it, it means that the previous law that allows the District Assemblies Common Fund would have to be amended.
And finally Mr Speaker, the reason it is very dangerous for us to do what we are doing, is that the District Assemblies Common Fund and the GETFund are not enough to do what they are supposed to do. Now, we are taking it as if the programme that we are doing now, we are just destroying them.
Mr Speaker, that is why we have to be very careful and try to be very flexible in the way we make this law. Otherwise, we will cripple the District Assemblies and GETFund, which is already crippled.
So, Mr Speaker, that is my view on this new clause, that there should be a further amendment to take away the fix percentage and make them just a percentage when it comes to the House, then the House decides on what to do with it.
Mr Chireh 12:15 p.m.
Thank you very much.
I was actually rising on a point of order because the thing is at the Consideration Stage. All that he said, I think it is the Hon Chairman who will have moved and then we will be making the suggestions, so that -- he just got up because we were asking little questions whether we came to some consensus. But whatever he is saying, if the Hon Chairman had moved -
- 12:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker 12:15 p.m.
But you know, look at what is on the Order Paper --

So, it is a continuous process. We know the areas that we flagged yesterday and that is why I asked those questions.
Mr Chireh 12:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I also have views about this particular thing. The issue about subjecting it to the Constitution is valid because some people were raising constitutional issues, whether it should be policy that determines from year to year what we put there. It is also laudable because as politicians, we prefer to deal with discretionally power and situations. But his last suggestions seem to be saying something along with what is already there with some amendments.
That is, once we say that 10 per cent is subject to article 252 of the -- 10 per cent rather. And it should be corrected. It is 10 per cent we agreed on, not 15 per cent. I think it was an error.
Mr Speaker 12:15 p.m.
I have corrected it.
Mr Chireh 12:15 p.m.
So, what I am saying is that, if we want the thing to be determined at the time we are deciding on the formula, that is the meaning of what has been put.
But if he captures it to reflect what we really want to be done, it is one thing.
The other thing is that, sometimes, the Ministry of Finance even have difficult people to deal with. I know a former Minister of State who reminds me -- I have not mentioned anybody's name in the first place --[Laughter] -- but the Ministers of Finance always have difficulties when the thing is not clear.
We all, as politicians and even Hon Members of Parliament should not be accepting earmarking. But why he is raising the issue of why the Youth Employment Agency is because in 2007, one of the security reports given to the then administration was that, the youth unemployment was going to create a serious problem and it is still today.
Now, what is important is that, we should not look at any percentages we are taking, as if they are going to be a stand-alone. If we are talking about -- even as we approve the Distr ict Assemblies Common Fund today, sometimes we say 25 per cent for sanitation. When we do that, whom are we giving it to? We are not giving it to any institution. But we need to be sure that there is steady source for money for those who will be engaged in this project. This is because since 2007, there has been a difficulty about this. People are --
Mr Speaker 12:15 p.m.
Hon Member for Wa West, the issues are very simple. I have resolved the legal and constitutional issues, as far as I am concerned. This is because the House is subject to the Constitution.
Now, what the Hon Member for Wenchi is talking about is a drafting style and the flexibilities, that if you need more money, you need to come back to the House and amend the law and that does not eject flexibility into the system. In a particular year, it could be the President or the Cabinet. But look at the volume that is accruing to the Distirct Assemblies
Common Fund or the GETFund and decide that this time the percentage should either go up or down and so, it is a drafting style.
The good news are that, the constitutional and legal issues we were raising yesterday, is where would -- we put Parliament, so that Parliament will be involved in the process in terms of the formula and all those things have been resolved. So, this one now is a question of drafting style. I will want us to address those issues.
Mr Chireh 12:15 p.m.
I have agreed with him and that is why I am saying that as an Hon Member of Parliament, it would be preferable for us to be dealing with situations as they arise. What I was moving to -- Yesterday, the debate was about giving money to some people and they embezzle it and all that --
Mr Speaker 12:15 p.m.
We have resolved that issue. Hon Member for Wa West that issue has been resolved and whatever it is, would be captured in the formula, which would be brought to the House. The Committee of the Whole is going to look at it and the issue would be resolved at that level.
Mr Chireh 12:15 p.m.
In effect, what I am saying is that, in his debate, he said that the District Assemblies Common Fund is already not adequate for the District Assemblies and GETFund is not adequate for educational purposes. But I am saying that this particular problem also addresses the same issues, that those funds are supposed to deal with and that is why we should not be isolating what this formula is going to address.
It is holistic; it should not be seen that we are taking them away, so that they would be less -- if you train the people with education and you do not have jobs for them, you are creating more chaos in society.
Thank you.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Member for Old Tafo and then the Hon Minister.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, my good Friend from Wa referred to a former Minister of State from the Ministry of Finance and I do not know what it has to do with this. I think we are making progress.
The point my Hon Colleague made, would help resolve this non rigidity in it. It gives the Hon Minister an opportunity to come before the Committee of the Whole and say, this year, giving our needs, we need “x” per cent, then he would know. So, I think that we should go on with what he is saying and remove the rigidity.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
But you see, we also want to study the other flip side based on yesterday's arguments on the floor, that they want a guarantee flow, the certainty of flow of resources and knowing how Hon Ministers of Finance behave -- [Laughter] -- If you leave it entirely into their hands -- That is it. That is why they also want to mention a certain percentage there. But it is a question of whether there should be flexibility here or rigidity. That is the only matter left for us to decide.
The point is that, there is a case there; there is a point that you are making and this is because, each side goes with consequences. If you put it there, any time you want the change, you must come back to this House and pass through all the processes. So, that is the gravamen of your submission, in my view. Is that correct?
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, all that I would want to say is that, if we do it in any of these forms, we would have actually removed it from the realm of the Hon Minister for Finance to Parliament, because the formula is not done by the Minister for Finance. His, is to give seven

and a half per cent and it is Parliament that does the formulae, which he gives to you. If you are afraid of your Minister for Finance, maybe, you just bring it to the House and we would be sympathetic to you.

Mr H. Iddrisu — rose —
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Yes, let me hear from you first before —
Mr H. Iddrisu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I would have taken a cue from your comment and guidance.
Mr Speaker, we have worked to improve the source of funding, and we are working on an assumption that the economy itself would improve, going forward into the future. Indeed, even at the policy consideration, it was considered that some three to five per cent of the annual budget funding amount be dedicated to youth employment.
We also have some suggestions from some of our Hon Colleagues, to dedicate two and a half per cent of VAT solely for the purpose of funding youth employ- ment. It was to indicate and reflect the appreciatio, n that we have of the challenge of growing unemployment in our country.
Mr Speaker, we have gone for five per cent and 10 per cent, guided by the history since 2007, what have been allocated from these Funds to support yout employ- ment. We are also guided that we could cure it by simply saying, at least, five per cent or, at least, 10 per cent.
But we also recognise that the primary mandate of these Funds, for instance, GETFund, is to complement Government financing of education. Therefore, one does not want to attach that particular Fund going into the future. That is why, for now, we are going for the barest minimum.
Mr Speaker, indeed, we initially said District Assemblies Common Fund -- 15 per cent but we have been guided by some of the calculations that were done by the Hon Ranking Member and we think that, let us start with 10 per cent going forward. But at least, even moneys approved by Parliament should have been sufficient to stand for any legislation in terms of Appropriation, as the controllers of government purse.
But we have had to come because, as I said, historically, where and how have we funded youth employment?
Going into the future, maybe, five to ten years time, we would all be convinced, that we should dedicate two and a half per cent, increase VAT, and use it to support youth employment in order to deal with it as a crisis — I think even the law, as would be passed, is subject to a review any day, depending upon what policy priorities would be.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Did I hear you say that we should put, “at least. . . ”? That also injects a bit of flexibility, so that we could go up. But that is the minimum — that also injects flexibility.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I am glad the Hon Member clarified it. I first thought he said “at least”, and then I heard him say; “This is the minimum”. We should say, “at least”, just like District Assemblies Common Fund in the Constitution, so that if in five years time we would want to do more, then we are alright.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Where is the Hon Chairman?
rose
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Are you the Acting Chairman?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, yes.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Very well. You have got the sense of the House now, so amend it to “at least 10 per cent”, and then when you come to the GETFund too, amend it to “at least, five per cent” then I could put the Question.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I consequently move, the (d) should be varied to, “at least 10 per cent” to read; “at least, 10 per cent of the District Assemblies Common Fund, subject to the formula approved by Parliament in accordance with article 252 of the Constitution.”
I so move.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I have always insisted that — [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Members, let us listen to the Hon Minority Leader — Order!
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I have always insisted that the Communications Service Tax was really established to provide for youth employment. I would think that if we even said, a minimum of 80 per cent for that one, because that was established purposely for that.
Mr Speaker, with respect to the District Assemblies Common Fund, I am hesitant. The reason being that, the District Assemblies Common Fund was established, pursuant to the concept of decentralisation. So, we must not overly encumber the moneys that are going there.
Mr Speaker, we should be a bit cautious about that. I would want a situation where we would say, “an agreed percentage to be approved by the House”. But to say that a minimum of —
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Members, once this matter is coming in a form of a formula, it should be a two-way traffic. To be very fair, we cannot legislate on these things, without taking the President completely out of this matter vis-a-vis article 108 of the Constitution.
Therefore, it is important that the suggestion should then come from the Executive, then we, in Parliament, might want to vary it one way or the other. This is because at each particular time, they will know the volume of resources available to the country. We may not have — They come out with the revenue measures and know the amount of money they are expecting each year and all those things.
In my view, once the formula, of course, comes from the Executive through the Assemblies Common Fund, we would then work it out through the Committee of the Whole. So, it should be fashioned out on that line if that is the —
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, that is exactly what we are saying. The Executive can always come with whatever that they want to be used for education in the youth employment, then the House would debate it and approve of it, but “not less than” this one -- “at least” is even more dangerous because it brings the rigidity downwards.
It is only flexible upwards and that is even more dangerous than what we have here. If it is so, then I would not go for that — It is rigid downwards that we have been —
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Members, I am happy that both sides of the House have identified one issue. We need to confront the issue of youth unemployment — Both sides of the House have agreed to that. We need to confront it as a nation and as a people. But how do we go about it? At least, we should start with a certain minimum amount of money — Inflow.
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.


Hon Members, I will say it, though the Hon Member for Old Tafo would not agree. We all know the attitude of the Ministry of Finance when it comes to releases of resources — The mischief there is to guarantee a certain inflow. That really is the mischief we must cure, so that we have a certain guaranteed amount of money into the Fund.

Hon Member for Old Tafo, it is very important. We need to confront the issue. Otherwise, we may pass the law and when it comes to implementation, we may have challenges.

Hon Member for Old Tafo?
Dr A. A. Osei 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not know —
Mr Speaker 12:25 p.m.
This time, it is the Ministry, not you —
Dr A. A. Osei 12:35 p.m.
The Minister for Employment and Labour Relations takes instructions from the President. In my time, the instructions came from the President. So, the Minister does not have discretion. That is what the Constitution says. When the President decides on an agreed percentage -- 15 per cent, 10 per cent or 20 per cent, it comes to the House. So, the flexibility that you are saying -- I think he means what he is saying -- They will determine at the time --
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members, you know, whatever it is, will come in the form of a formula. When it comes in the form of a formula, the House will be seized of the matter and benefit. But it is important that there is a certain guaranteed amount.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:35 p.m.
Yes.
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
In my view, that is my worry.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:35 p.m.
An agreed percentage!
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Yes.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:35 p.m.
An agreed percentage that will come to the House, so that they will come with their suggestion; it may be five per cent, 10 per cent or 15 per cent. But if you fixed it at 10 per cent and you want to have more, you will not get it.
Mensah — rose
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Member for Takoradi?
Mr Kwabena Okyere Darko-Mensah 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think that we should keep it as it is. This is because first and foremost, we all need certainty; and we should be certain in our minds that for the next five years, this is what we are doing and implementing. This is because if we say “least”, it means that we are shifting the burden of creating jobs to Government instead of to the private sector.
But we know that this is an interim measure to ensure that this country supports the private sector also to grow, so that over the period, the private sector will take over this business of creating jobs. So, we should create certainty and see what the Hon Chairman proposed.
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Can we accept this as a working document to start with?
Mr Darko-Mensah 12:35 p.m.
Yes.
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Let us review it within a year and then we will see when the subsequent formula comes, then as a House, we can take a decision.
Mr Darko-Mensah 12:35 p.m.
Let us use what we have here.
Bonsu — rose
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, can we get this as a compromised working formula?
Yes?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the good thing for us is that, we have not, as a House, approved of the formula for these Funds, basically; for the purposes of this financial year, we have not. So, if we come to this agreement that an agreed percentage, quickly, we can confront it. That is number one.
Mr Speaker, because if we did that, we shall ensure greater transparency and accountability. They may be required every year to report to us what they have done with the money. Then if we say that let us increase it by maybe, one percentage point next year or maybe, two or three percentage points the following year, we know what they have done with it.

Mr Speaker, so, I think if we crafted i t -- [Interruption] -- It is still a percentage -- An agreed percentage is still a percentage -- Then we can work it into this year's approval and we take it from there. Mr Speaker, for purposes of transparency and accountability, I think it is better in that shape.
Baffour — rose
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, if it is a dedicated source that you are afraid of, the law allows us to give a dedicated source -- where we are taking it from. What we are saying is the law being inflexible. That is the problem that we have. It is just about the source; the source is there but then the flexibility will come in if every year, when the formula comes in, you bring it here and then we approve whatever that you are looking for. So, the dedication of the source is not lost.
Mr Chireh — rose --
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Yes?
Mr Chireh 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, you were about to put the Question when the Hon Minority Leader raised another issue relating to a different paragraph and so, we would seem to be going back and forth. But the argument was that, we have generally agreed about subjecting it to the formula and then with the “minimum”. That is because as we say, if you do not have a minimum, you have a problem.
By the time the formula comes here, the Minister for Finance would have brought the budget. You know, these days, they have a very good way of putting social interventions there and already taking funds from this.
So, I think that [Interruption] -- If it would be easier for the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations to deal with something than that. But I think that we should go paragraph by paragraph in terms of the percentages, so that we can make progress. So, if you can put the Question on the first one on the District Assemblies Common Fund.
For my Friend who has been arguing, we were all agreeing with him but he is still in the mould of the Ministry of Finance because he was also a Deputy Minister there. So, it is a cultural thing.
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members, I want to put the Question now. [Interruption.]
Dr A. A. Osei — rose --
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Yes, I will call you, Hon Member for Old Tafo.
We have given enough attention to this issue. I think this is about the fifth time that we are discussing this. So, I will put the Question for the House to decide. But let me hear the Hon Member for Old Tafo.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister Employment and Labour Relations should be assured that changing the language to “an agreed percentage” does not mess you up. What it does is that, if we say “a minimum”, Mr Speaker, five years from now, that minimum of say, two billion, may be much more than you need. But agreed percentage is determined by you when you bring the formula and it has nothing to do with the Ministry of Finance. That is really what it is.
Ten per cent as a minimum this year, to say, 1 billion, is GH¢100 million Ghana cedis. But 10 per cent of two million next year, is 200 million. Are you saying that is the minimum that you need? But agreed percentage gives you room to determine what is the minimum every year. That is a mathematical trick that works for you. He should be assured; it has nothing to do with the Ministry of Finance.
Mr Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members, I will put the Question -- [Interruption.]
On the amendment, the rules allow that, when the amendment is more than a number of subsections, I do not need to put it together. The Standing Orders allow
me. So, I am putting the Question on the 10 per cent as well as the five per cent amendment. [Uproar] That is what I am putting the Question on.
Bonsu — rose
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader, you have the floor.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, if an amendment is proposed and an amendment is further amended -- I think you have been citing the rules of the House; the rules will then permit you to put the Question --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
I did not know that you have moved an amendment. I thought you are bringing a suggestion. [Laughter.]
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I believe that will be a better --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, you know there is a case for both sides -- To be very honest, there is a strong case for both sides -- flexibility versus guaranteed amount of money. That is the issue. So, flexibility, which makes a lot of sense and then the guaranteed inflow of money to support the programme. Those are the two issues at stake and both arguments make sense to the Chair.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the agreed percentage gives you both. That is the novelty of it. It gives you minimum and it gives you flexibility because you choose that minimum; that is, “agreed percentage” gives you both.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Hon Members, let me put the Question on this one. Let us start it and see.
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:45 p.m.
None

Hon Member for Wenchi, let me put the Question.

Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Hon Members, I know that in the future, we may have to take a look at this matter but we need -- [Interruption] -- Yes, it is true. I agree entirely with you that there is a case that you are making -- very strong cases from both sides -- From both arguments not even from both sides. Even the Hon Member for Takoradi holds the view that we should put the 10 per cent.
There are strong cases for both arguments.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
None

Yes?
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, just that the Hon Minister --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, to help Parliament, if you would allow me a further amendment. This should read, “to be reviewed by Parliament in three years”, then we will be --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Hon Member, I do not have a problem at all. At certain intervals
-- 12:45 p.m.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
“To be reviewed by Parliament in three years” --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Yes, that is a compromised amendment. Yes, --
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
But the Hon Speaker does not have a problem. [Interruption.] Yes, I am proposing --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
No, you should bring it -- Bring it as a new clause.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
I am asking the Hon Minister to --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
He has agreed. Bring it at the appropriate time, we will put it. Every three years -- [Interruption.] Yes, bring the amendment at the appropriate time and we will put it there.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I was asking the Hon Minister to take it as his own and bring it.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
All right. They should file it and we will take it. [Interruption.] Yes, we have agreed to the principle but you have to bring the amendment. I have to look at the amendment.
The new clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
First Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.
What clause, Chairman of the Committee? What clause are we looking at? What is the next clause?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I wanted to add a new subclause --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Which new clause?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, on the application of the funds for the Agency, at page 2 of the Order Paper Addendum, “Application of funds of the Agency”.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
Yes?
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, yesterday, the same Hon Chairman in the interpretation, removed the word, “drop- outs”. Now, he is bringing an amendment that includes “dropouts”. So, he should advert his mind to that.
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
I agree entirely with you.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Yes --
Mr Speaker 12:45 p.m.
First Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.
Dr A. A. Osei 12:45 p.m.
Clause (b) should go. Clause (b) should be deleted.
MR FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Yes, Hon Chairman for the Committee?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:48 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I agree that subclause (b) “to prepare school drop- outs to continue with their education” should be removed from the new amendment.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Very well. So, give it the rendition that you want us to use.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:48 p.m.
The new rendition will be,
“The Agency shall apply its funds”
(a) to support youth development through skills training, entre- preneurship and internship;
(b) for the payment of allowances of the beneficiaries on the intern- ship modules;
(c) for the training of beneficiary in a trade or vocation;
(d) for the payment of service providers who have been contracted by the Agency to implement specific modules developed by the Agency; and
(e) for the administrative expenses of the Agency and oversight by the Ministry which shall in any case not exceed five per cent of the funds of the Agency.”
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Yes, Hon Member?
Mr James K. Avedzi 12:48 p.m.
Mr Speaker. I would want us to look at the headnote. It reads, “Application of the funds of the Agency.”
I thought that the first “the” should not be there but we should have “Application of funds of the Agency”. So, if the Hon Chairman can take that one on board as well.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Chairman, how do you respond to that? Hon Chairman of the Committee, there is a proposal that the heading, “Application of the funds…” The article, “the” there be deleted, so that we have “Application of funds of the Agency”. Do you agree to that?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:48 p.m.
Yes, I agree, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Very well. That is a further amendment.
Yes? [Interruption.] Otherwise, then I will put the Question.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
The new clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Hon Chairman of the Committee?
New clause -- Bank account for the Agency
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:48 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, new clause -- add the following new clause:
“Bank account for the Agency The Agency shall maintain bank accounts into which shall be paid all moneys accruing to the Agency.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Hon Chairman, sometimes, I want you to give some background -- Some rationale for what you are proposing. Do you understand it? So that Hon Members will be convinced that it is the right thing to do.
Hon Member for Old Tafo, I do not know if you have something to --
Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the impression is being given that you maintain the bank account only to pay in moneys. I think there are financial rules and regulations concerning maintenance of bank accounts beyond just paying in money. So, I would want to suggest to the Hon Chairman that if he can say, “The Agency shall maintain bank accounts in accordance with the current financial rules and regulations” [Interruption] That includes paying in moneys and other things.
So that the impression is not given that you open the account only to pay in money and not do anything else. It must do several things. But when I read this, I get the impression that you are maintaining the account only to pay in --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Hon Member, do you know something? It is not as if it is only for paying in moneys but they want to ensure that whatever moneys you get go into the account -- The other functions --
Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
Yes, that is what I said; if you do it in consonance with current financial regulations, it includes paying in moneys and other matters. It covers more than this.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Very well --
rose
Dr A. A. Osei 12:48 p.m.
With that I will be more comfortable.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Let us listen to Hon O. B. Amoah.
Mr O. B. Amoah 12:48 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think we can make this provision better than what it is here. In the first place, I think it should be “bank accounts for the Agency.” Because in the body of it, bank accounts is reflected there. So, the subheading -- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker, I am saying that we should insert, “…in accordance with the Financial Administration Act “The Agency shall maintain bank accounts in accordance with the Financial Administration Act, 2003, Act 654…” Then it continues, “…to which shall be paid all moneys accruing to the Agency.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
Chairman of the Committee, how do you respond to that? Did you follow what he was saying?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:48 p.m.
Yes, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:48 p.m.
He is proposing a further amendment which will make it read as follows, “The Agency shall maintain bank accounts…” and I think we draft in the singular. So, the word “accounts” there be reduced to read “account”, “…in accordance with the Financial Regulation….”.
Mr O. B. Amoah 12:55 p.m.
Financial Adminis- tration Act --
Mr Speaker 12:55 p.m.
“…into which all moneys shall be paid”. How do you respond to that?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think with the Financial Administration Act, it is implied in the draft that we have here and I do not think we have to go further to insert this one.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Yes, Hon Chairman of the Finance Committee?
Mr Avedzi 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the amendment says that:
“The Agency shall maintain bank accounts into which shall be paid all moneys accruing to the Agency.”
By the Financial Administration Act, Controller and Accountant-General is the only body that is mandated to open an account for all agencies. So, this Agency cannot operate or maintain an account without recourse to the Act, which mandates Controller and Accountant- General to open an account for the Agency.
So, the further amendment by Hon O. B. Amoah is in place that in accordance with Financial Administration Act, the account shall be maintained and it does not cause anything. So, let us accept it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
I believe hat will also take care of the issue raised by the Hon Member for Old Tafo, so that it will not just be for purposes of paying in but operating it the way the law that sets out the opening of accounts by Agencies would operate. All right?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I accept it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Very well. I direct that the draftspersons capture it, in the sense that we have put it out now. So, I will put the Question.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
As I said, I direct that the draftspersons put it in the right language for us.
Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 27 be amended --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mr Haruna Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, there is an important amendment in the name of the Hon Minority Leader, since we are under the new clauses of “Estimates of Incomes and Expenditure”. I would plead with the Hon Chairman that we take that since we are within that before we come to clauses 27, 28 and 29, if it pleases --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Where do we locate that in the Order Paper?
Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, it will come after “Application of the funds of the Agency”. Or you may direct the draftspersons --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
What I mean is that on what page of the Order Paper?
Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, it is on page 4 of the original Order Paper and in the first page of the Order Paper Addendum.
So, if the Hon Minority Leader can move.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Very well. Can we get the Hon Minority Leader to move his application to the Motion?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, as has been mentioned, we will move it and leave it to the draftspersons to situate it at the relevant place. It is in respect of the proposal on the first page of the Order Paper Addendum -- “Estimates of Incomes and Expenditure”.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, new clause -- add the following new clause 12:55 p.m.
“Estimates of Incomes and Expenditure
(1) The Board shall prepare estimates of income and expen- diture for each financial year and submit them to the Minister responsible for Finance for approval by Parliament.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Hon Majority Leader, I cannot hear you.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I said, the Estimates of Incomes and Expenditure --
“The Board shall prepare estimates of income and expenditure of each financial year and submit them to the Minister responsible for Finance for approval by Parliament”.
Except Mr Speaker, upon second consideration, I thought the Board was responsible to the Minister and that it cannot be that they will jump over the head of the Minister and submit it to the Finance Minister. So, we may have to look at tidying that one up before it goes to the Finance Minister for approval.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Yes Hon Member?
Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, if --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
All right. Sorry Hon Minister; after him, then you.
Mr Avedzi 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to see how we could situate the amendment by the Hon Minority Leader under clause 19 of the Bill, which talks about accounts and audits, which says that:
“(1) The Board shall keep books of accounts and proper records in relation to them in the form approved by the Auditor-General.
(2) The Board shall submit the accounts of the Commission…”
Mr Speaker, I do not know if this one should be “the Agency” --
“…of the Agency to the Auditor- General for audit within three months after the end of the financial year”.
Now, the amendment being proposed by the Hon Minority Leader is making reference to estimates of income and expenditure. Is that not a budget and if that is a budget, can we situate it under clause 19?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, it is really the point that I am making. Originally, it was not supposed to be there. It was not what was proposed and that is why I am saying that after we adopt it, we would leave it to the draftspersons to situate it to where it should properly belong. This is because certainly, it was not meant to be under that because that is relating to keeping of books for the Auditor-General.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.


So, I appreciate the point that you have made, which is why I said it did not really belong there. But it should be for them to situate it at the proper location.
Mr Avedzi 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, again, I do not think we have anything called “estimates of income and expenditure.” No! We have income and expenditure, statements or accounts but we have estimates of revenue and expenditure. So, if we could amend the “income” portion to read “revenue”, that equates it to a budget and we can accept it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Now, can you educate us a little? What is the difference between income and revenue?
Mr Avedzi 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, let me begin with “revenue.” It is what one derives from one's operation or activities. In the case of the Agency, whenever they realise these sources of funds, it becomes revenue to them. So, at the beginning of the year, they will estimate how much they will want to realise as revenue. Then, out of this revenue, how much they will want to spend. That is the estimate of expenditure.
So, we have estimates of revenue and expenditure. The income is what you earn. You could earn an income but cannot receive it. So, that is the difference. If I earn an income, I do not receive it, it is a debt that somebody owes me. As soon as I collect it, it becomes revenue for me and I can spend it. That is the difference.
So, if you say statement of income and expenditure, you will estimate that my income is GH¢100 million. But during the course of the year, you collect only 50 million and for that matter, if you estimate your expenditure to GH¢100 million, you might not achieve your objective.
So, you have to show the difference between the two -- estimates of revenue and expenditure. Revenue is what one realises or collects out of your income.
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Thank you very much.
Well, I will ask the Hon Minister to respond.
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I associate myself with the first part of the proposal by the Hon Minority Leader and with your leave and in dulgence and his support, based on the comment made by the Hon Chairman of the Finance Committee, to seek a further amendment so that it will read: “Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure”; that will be the Headnote.
Then it would read:
“The Board shall through the Minister prepare and submit estimates of revenue and expen- diture for each financial year and submit them to the Minister responsible for Finance for approval by Parliament.”
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
Mr Speaker, just to support both what Hon James Klutse Avedzi and the Hon Minority Leader have said.
We have just by a decision dedicated the Communications Service Tax to certain portions of the District Assemblies Common Fund (DACF) and the Ghana Education Trust Fund (GETFund). It is only appropriate that, at least, we come to Parliament to say that this amount has accrued for the purpose of running this Fund and this is how we intend to expend it over the years.
Mr Speaker, so, I would rather plead with the Hon Minority Leader that we take just the first part of his amendment.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Members, I will put the Question with regard to the first part of the Hon Minority Leader's proposed amendment.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
Indeed, what I mean is the amendment and the further amendment to it, so that we can capture what the Hon Chairman of the Finance Committee has said.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.
Mr Speaker, copious as the explanation given by the Chairman of the Finance Committee was, as far as I am concerned, it was a distinction without difference. The revenues accruing to the State for which we provide budget estimates are income to the Government. One could say that they are also revenues, and in my view, it is a distinction without difference. But we could move on.
Mr Speaker, the other leg really belongs to the original clause 24 in the Bill, which is the “Application of the Funds”. That is where it would really find comfort. So, that is where it really belongs -- “the application of the funds of the Agency.”
Mr Speaker, I beg to move,
(2) The Board shall ensure that funds of the Agency are employed solely for the purpose for which they are approved and in accordance with the regu- lations of the Agency.”
Somebody is proposing that it should not even be the “regulations of the Agency” -- [Interruptions] -- Is my microphone not working?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I also have that problem. I do not know if I am becoming hard of hearing but --
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am saying that the other leg really belongs to the original clause 24 in the Bill, that is the application of the funds of the Agency. So, we may look at some engineering but then locating it there --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Very well.
Chairman, I so direct. I think that is the way to go. So, can we take it?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:05 a.m.
We now move to clause
27.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
No! We have not completed that. He has made some observations and I thought I could listen to you if you agreed with him. He was making reference to the original clause 24, being the purpose for which he is proposing this amendment.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:05 a.m.
I accept that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Very well.
Question put and amendment agreed to
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, just a little tidying up even though you have put the Question on that. That is the new clause that we approved; the application of the funds. If we could --- just for the draftspersons -- (e) says:
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Hon Minister, can you respond?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much.
The Hon Minority Leader has ably provided the answer to the very question he is asking. That is why he provided that estimates of revenue and expenditure be brought for approval. Mr Speaker, under this Bill, we envisage that there would be regional offices, there would be district offices and these would be administrative.
But all of these would be accounted for under the very amendment that was proposed by him.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Very well.
Yes, Chairman of the Committee?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 27, subclause (1), delete and insert the following:
“The Agency shall establish in each region a regional committee of the Agency consisting of;
(a) a chairperson who shall be a person with relevant knowledge, skill and expertise nominated by the Regional Minister;
(b) the Regional Labour Officer;
(c) the Regional Director of the Agency;
(d) the Regional Director of the National Youth Authority;
(e) one woman with expertise in skills training and Human Resource Management nominated by the Regional Minister;
(f) one representative of the Organisation of Persons With Disability; and
(g) one representative of the National Board for Small Scale Industries.”
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Do you have an amendment to this particular clause?
Please, use the microphone.
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if you take all the offices that have been mentioned, including the National Board for Small Scale Industries, you would realise that they are all vir tually government institutions. I feel that to have a major impact, we need to involve more of the private sector. So, I was of the view that we should also nominate three persons. [Interruption.]
Three persons nominated by the Regional Business Associations from the region. National Board for Small Scale Industries (NBSSI) is not a business association, it is a government institution.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Hon Member, are we on the same page? I thought he was dealing with clause 27. Am I right?
What clause are you dealing with?
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it says:
“the Agency shall establish in each region a regional committee of the Agency consisting of …”
So, it was talking about --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
So, do I understand you to be proposing that the list be expanded to include what you are saying?
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:05 a.m.
Yes, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
How Chairman of the Committee, how do you respond to that?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I need a little more clarity because this was what was agreed at the winnowing this morning.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:05 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
With the support of the Hon Majority and Minority Leaders, we subjected clause 27 to 30 to some consultation this morning, which already had the Private Enterprise Federation. But our attention was drawn to the fact that they are not decentralised, and they may not be in every district and every region of the country and that would be a difficulty.
So, we agreed by consensus that the NBSSI is responsible for the development of small and medium enterprises, which is much of the interventions that in terms of skills training and capacity building, they would be relevant.
So, I would persuade my Hon Colleague that ideally, we originally thought of the Private Enterprise Federation, but we do have a difficulty because they may not be at that particular level. That is why we substituted it for the NBSSI.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member for Takoradi?
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, when we were doing the winnowing, some of us were not aware it will come up because we had made those amendments. If we had been consulted, maybe, we would have also made those arguments.
Mr Speaker, I feel if we want to do something for the youth and the idea is to prepare them to either go entrepreneurial themselves or join the private sector, then it would be a good idea to put in people who are already in the private sector to do so. That is why we are saying that those business associations are those associations in those regions, so that the issue of Private Enterprise Federation does not come in.
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:05 a.m.


As for NBSSI, we should all know it is a government institution and we know their attitude towards business and their attitude towards industrialisation. I feel that real practitioners should be added. At least, if we can nominate two people from industry based on the area's economic activity, I believe it would go a long way to strengthen this Committee and make sure that the youth who would turn out from this --

So at least, if we get two members in addition, it should be alright.
Mr Chireh 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I would also appeal to my Hon Colleague to abandon the idea of increasing the numbers. This is an institution which already has a Board. So, at the regional level, we should look at relevance in the case he is talking about.
If the Hon Member is talking about industry people, the issue about the development of modules and the people who would work there or people who would employ others or train others, they would be those trade associations.
During the discussion, some people suggested that we should put in service providers, and we thought there would be a conflict of interest in the matter.
What we are also saying is that, the National Board for Small Scale Industries already helped people in the private sector to develop business plans and were able to access funds from financial institutions. So, they were more relevant. We wanted to keep the numbers down, and that is why we have the seven now. If we want to increase the number -- When you
conceptualise the functions of a Board in terms of everyday activities, that should not be the case.
Whatever it is, that committee at the regional level should be able to invite relevant people to their meetings to help them develop their things. It should not be sitting on the committees because even in organising meetings, paying for these meetings and allowances are such that - - I would plead that we should not add more; we should maintain what we agreed on.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Probably, he insists on his stands. So, what we would do now would be first, to get him to move his amendment, put the Question with regard to his amendment, and depending on the way things go, then we would look at the amendment proposed by the Chairman of the Committee.
Do you want us to deal with the Chairman's proposed amendment one by one?
How many amendments are being proposed to this particular clause? [Interruption] -- No! The original one has been deleted, and in its place, we are bringing this new rendition. I thought we could take the whole of the rendition together at ago. Do you want us to take them item by item?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I thought we could go on dealing with it one after the other. The reason is, it does appear that there has been some mixed up in the construction of the amendment. In 1 (a) for instance, I think what we said was that,
“a chairperson who shall be a person with knowledge and expertise in skills training and human resource development nominated by the Regional Minister.”
I think that was what we said, and not just relevant knowledge and expertise. What we said was that the person should have knowledge and expertise in skills training and human resource development nominated by the Regional Minister.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Yes, Chairman of the Committee, how do you respond to that? Are you with him?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I agree.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
So, that is a further amendment.
Now, I would want us to resolve this issue of whether we are taking the whole of the amendment together or we are taking your amendment subclause by subclause. I think we should take them together. But before then, we will take the Hon Member for Takoradi's proposed expansion.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the other one relates to the representation from the regional organisations. They have just written “one representative of the Organisation of Persons with Disability”. But we spoke about “one representative of the Regional Organisation of Persons with Disability”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Yes, Chairman of the Committee?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:15 p.m.
I agree.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Very well.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:15 p.m.
The final one;
“one representative of the National Board for Small Scale Industries in the region”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:15 p.m.
It is acceptable.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
All right.
So, Hon Members, having cleared all of that, we will now put the Question with regard to the Hon Member for Takoradi's proposed amendment by way of an expansion to the list.
Are we clear? We are putting the Question before we come to the proposed amendment by the Chairman of the Committee. Let us listen carefully. I do not want a repeat of what happened some time back.
Mr Chireh 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, we pleaded with him to drop his amendment, and I do not know what the Hon Member 's amendment really was seeking to do. So, ask him whether he has dropped it before you talk about putting the Question.
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not think that this is a major issue. It is just two people, one member from the Association of Ghana Industries (AGI), and one from the Chamber of Commerce, at least, to get nine people on the Board. So, I will drop my amendment on the district representative. At least, if they are at the regional level, they can provide policy direction.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Can you go over again? I did not get it well.
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:15 p.m.
I said that I had two amendments, one for the region and one for the district. But I believe if we can get two on the regional Board, then we do not need to have it for the district. At least, they should be able to provide the input -- nine-member Board at the regional level. The district one has not come up yet.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Let us deal with what we are doing now. That is the regional one.
So, your proposed amendment by way of an expansion of the list is what I am going to put the Question on?
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, one member each from the AGI and the Ghana Chamber of Commerce.
Question put and amendment nega- tived.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Hon Members, I will put the Question with regard to the proposed amendment.
Question put and amendments agreed to.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 27, subclause (3), line 3, after “meetings” insert the following:
“except that the procedure shall not be in conflict with any procedures established by the Board”.
The new rendition would then be:
“The regional committee may prescribe its own procedure for the conduct of meetings except that the procedure shall not be in conflict with the procedure established by the Board”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Very well. I think it is straightforward.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the other amendment does not stand in my name. Maybe, you will have to call the Hon O. B. Amoah.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Very well.
Hon O. B. Amoah, your name is --
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think we have dealt with this yesterday, and we have agreed that since clause 15 provides for the establishment of regional and district offices, we would abandon this amendment.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
Are you abandoning your amendment?
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:25 p.m.
Yes, the proposed amendment because clause 15 has taken care of that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Then seek leave of the House and abandon it.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to seek leave to abandon the proposed amendment of clause 27 in respect of regional and district offices of the Agency.

Clause 27 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 28 -- Functions of the Regional Committees
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 28 add the following new paragraph:
“advise the Board on plans for the development and sustainance of youth employment in the region.”
The new rendition would therefore be:
“The regional committee shall assist the Board in carrying out the functions of the Board and shall, subject to the direction of the Board,
(a) be responsible for implementa- tion of the policies of the Agency in the region;
In this case, “and” would have to go because of the introduction of a third paragraph --
(b) oversee the activities of the Agency in the region; and
(c) advise the Board on plans for the development and sustenance of youth employment in the region.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Hon O. B. Amoah, there is another amendment standing in your name. This time, to clause 28.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, you have put the Question on this subclause and it has been agreed to and I am all in support of that. But since the Chairman, in the amendment that he just proposed, was talking about advice, I would want to advise him that if a proposal to amend any place of the Bill comes from anybody and he buys into the idea, and he wants to assume some control, at least, he should acknowledge that the proposal came from somebody. He should not just do what he is doing. It is most unkind and uncharitable.
Mr Speaker, I noticed that many of the amendments that the Chairman is proposing came from me and he will not acknowledge. It is as if it is from the Chairman.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Minority Leader, I think once you stated it, it has been captured and recognition has been given to the input that you have made towards it.
Thank you very much.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, originally, I have proposed that the whole of clause 28 should be deleted, given the fact we agree that the Regional Minister should not chair the regional committee. But the fact that, that whole clause has been amended, I think I would take leave of the House and by your leave, I would want to drop the amendment for clause
28.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Leave accordingly granted.

Clause 28 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29 -- Establishment of District Committees
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 29, subclause (1), delete and insert the following:
“The Agency shall establish in each district a district committee of the Agency consisting of --
(a) a chairperson who shall be a person with the relevant knowledge, skill and expertise nominated by the District Chief Executive;
(b) the District Labour Officer;
(b) the District Director of the Agency;
(c) the District Director of the National Youth Authority;
(d) one woman with expertise in skills training and human resource management nominated by the Regional Minister;
(e) one representative of the Organisation of Persons With Disability; and
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:25 p.m.


(f) one representative of the National Board for Small Scale Industries.”
Mr Darko-Mensah 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, in view of what has happened to the first one, I agree already that we should step it down. So, I would want to take leave from you to abandon it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Very well. Leave granted.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Hon Members, I will put the Question. [Interruption.]
Yes, Hon Chairman?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the amendment made in clause 27 should consequentially apply to clause 28 on the district committees.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
So, you are saying by implication that the further amendment made to clause 27 by the Hon Minority Leader apply to this one too, for the avoidance of doubt?
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:25 p.m.
Yes, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Very well.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Yes, Hon Ahmed Ibrahim?
Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, on the same amendment that the Chairman of the Committee was proposing, if you look at:
“The Agency shall establish in each district, a district committee…”
But when you come to (d):
“one woman with expertise in skills training and human resource management nominated by the Regional Minister;”
I thought -- [Interruption] -- That is exactly what I wanted to say.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, for your guidance and directive, it was agreed that in principle, there should be a regional committee with nomination coming from the Regional Minister. For the district committees, the nominee will come from the District Chief Executive. Indeed, it was at the insistence of the Hon Minority Leader that we should take steps to depoliticise how this is done. That is why we qualified it with a proviso, on who should be the chairperson in terms of the background of the person by way of skills and experience in youth-related activities.
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
Very well.
Thank you very much for drawing my attention to them.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Hon Chairman of the Committee?
No! Sorry. We have one by the Hon Member for Takoradi having been abandoned, and so, we come to Hon Osei Bonsu Amoah.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, it is consequential. So, I seek leave to abandon it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Leave granted.

Clause 29 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Hon Members, we move on to clause 30.
Clause 30 -- Functions of District Committees
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 30, delete and insert following:
“The District Committee shall
(a) be responsible for the imple- mentation of the policies of the Agency in the district;
(b) oversee the activities of the Agency in the district; and
(c) advise the Regional Committee on plans for the development and sustainance of youth employment in the district.”
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Again, since it has been advertised, Hon O.B. Amoah?
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I seek leave to abandon clause 30 in view of the initial amendments agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Leave granted.

Clause 30 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Chairman of the Committee, new clause.
New clause -- Secretary to the Board
Mr Gyan-Tutu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, new clause --
Add the following new clause:
“Secretary to the Board
(1) The Agency shall have a secre- tary
(2) The Secretary shall be appointed in accordance with article 195 of the Constitution.
(3) The Secretary shall perform functions that the Board may direct or as the Chief Executive Officer may delegate.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
I will put the Question -- sorry!
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, Hon Member?
Mr Joe K. Gidisu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, with most Boards, especially where they only meet occasionally, having a permanent Secretary would be an additional cost to the Board. So, I think perhaps, the Chief Executive, who is a member of the Board, could serve as secretary to the Board.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, what is your response to that, Hon Chairman? Otherwise, let us listen to the Hon Minister.
Hon Minister, a point has been raised by Hon Joe Gidisu.
Hon Joe Gidisu, could you go over your proposal?
Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, my proposal is that in most organisations where Boards exist, Boards normally meet occasionally or even regularly. Appoint- ing a permanent secretary for them would be an additional cost to the organisation. I am thinking that, in that ease, so far as the Chief Executive is a member of the Board, he could be the secretary to the Board, to reduce cost.
Mr Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister, what do you say?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I am guided, but I would still persuade my senior Colleague to abandon it. Part of the problem following the investigation into the Ghana Youth Employment and Entrepreneurial Development Agency (GYEEDA) was to let it have a functioning administrative structure and secretariat.
We think that by the Board, normally, Mr Speaker, if there is a Board Secretary, who has a legal background, that itself would be useful. But I was reminded by the Chairman of the Committee and the Hon Member for Akatsi South, that there are now even professional secretaries who may be dedicated to be able to do this job right.
I get his concern, but in order that we get this Employment Agency functioning well administratively, I am not sure adding a secretary to the Board with a background either in legal training or professional secretaryship, would do that fatal harm.
So, I would plead with him, if he would allow you to put the Question, so that the Board must have a secretary. This is because Mr Speaker, from the report that we have got, many of the contracts that were entered into, there is no evidence of it. You cannot trace it. When was this contract signed, how much was it for, and what was it to do? I think that we would want to hold institutions and persons accountable tomorrow.
So, I would plead with my Hon Colleague, so that you put the Question.
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, Hon Joe Gidisu, how do you respond?
Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think with reference to the arguments advanced by the Hon Minister, I would like to step down the amendment. You could put the Question.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Very well.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, even though my Hon Colleague who last spoke has persuaded himself to abandon the proposal, I think it makes some sense, and so maybe, we should think through.
The reason is that we have listed the governing body of the Agency, and the persons to constitute the Board. Now, we are bringing a secretary who is to be appointed by the President. Can we then say that that secretary would not be a member of the Board?
If he has to be a member of the Board, that would alter the membership. So, I was beginning to see the wisdom in the proposal that came from him, that the Chief Executive should act as the Secretary of the Board, otherwise, we may find ourselves in some problem.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Chireh 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I did not see this amendment first. But I do not think it is necessary.
First and foremost, you would normally make the Chief Executive of that Agency the secretary, but he would then designate an administrative officer who would produce -- because these things are obtainable in financial institutions and big commercial institutions. So, you do not need this creation at all. Rather, it is the Agency head who is the secretary, so that he sits in all the meetings.
He may have officers within the meeting who would take notes and prepare the minutes and follow up, but if you appoint him -- You see, the appointment issue he raised is important.
When somebody says “I was appointed by the President”, and you are also appointed by the President, who is who? That issue has to be resolved. Indeed, even if we have to get somebody, the person should not be appointed. He should be designated by the Chief Executive of the Agency. It should not even be in the law because it is not necessary. The Chief Executive himself must be the secretary to the Board.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Hon Minister, how do you respond to this proposal? I know that you have previously made some comments about it, but do you not think that once you make the Chief Executive the secretary, then he could nominate somebody or delegate somebody who has the expertise to do it?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I associate myself with that suggestion.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the suggestion has been abandoned or you are appealing to him to reinstate it?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
That is exactly what we are going to do, get him to reinstate it, then we can move forward.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:35 p.m.
Exactly. This is because Mr Speaker, like the Parliamentary Service Board, officially, the Clerk is supposed to be the Secretary to the Board, but when we sit, he rather appoints another officer to be the secretary to the Board, and I think that is the way to do it.
So, the Chief Executive should be designated as the secretary to the Board, and he, in committee, in any meeting, could appoint any person to be -- maybe, the recorder, if you like, but he should be held accountable for that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
Yes, Hon O. B. Amoah?
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the job of a secretary to the Board is very huge. With all due respect, it does not speak well of any set up that the Chief Executive is also the secretary to the Board. If he is a member of the Board, fine, but he cannot be the Chief Executive and also Secretary to that Agency. We should start with very good practice and recruit a competent person to run the secretariat; the person would become the Secretary to the Board, call for meetings, make sure everything is in order --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
But Hon Member, the Chief Executive is not the Chairman of the Board.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:35 p.m.
He is not. He is a member of the Board. But in any well set up institution, we would have the secretary who is in charge of Board matters, meetings, everything. And we have a Chief Executive also running his own thing.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:35 p.m.


But to say that the Chief Executive should also be the secretary, I think it is not good modern practice at all. We should not start it that way by saying that we want to cut cost, we want to cut corners, and so, the Chief Executive should also play the role of a secretary. It does not speak well at all for any good administrative sector.

Please, let us recruit a competent person to be the secretary to the Board and do his work. He would be account- able for that particular position. Not that one person is the Chief Executive today, tomorrow, he is the secretary to the Board.

Please, Mr Speaker, I think if we go into how these systems run, no modern institution would advise that this is how we should go, simply on the basis that we would want to save money. Not at all, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Let us hear from Hon Joe Gidisu and then the Hon Member for Wa West.
Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, most often if you go to Boards where even chief Directors are members, they become secretaries to the Board. But normally, they go into such meetings with a Director from the outfit who takes the minutes to other necessary secretarial work. But here we are where Boards do not meet regularly, and putting somebody in that office as a permanent secretary will definitely be an additional cost, which could have been saved by appointing somebody from within.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Chireh 1:45 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
The issue the Hon Member raised about corporate governance has nothing to do with public sector organisation like we are creating.
The Bank of Ghana in its law has a secretary. Most of the banks always have a secretary who normally would be a lawyer, and his duty has been specified there. In most of the other organisations that we are talking about, the Chief Executives are the secretaries.
This is a public institution -- [Interruption] -- Yes, but what I am also saying is that, the issue is not about only the cost. If we look at the appointment -- that was why I suggested that the Chief Executive should designate an officer as the secretary to the Board. If that is done, then the question of authority does not arise. But if you want the public office that we are creating now to have a secretary, then who is he answerable to?
It would be seen that in the same amendment they have proposed, they said that he should take instructions from the Chief Executive. That is the conflicting area. This is because, the Chief Executive would also say that he was appointed by the President under article 195.
So, the issue is that - as he rightly said, many of the laws we have passed, creating public institutions similar to this, we have not created the position of a secretary apart. No! I am certain; I am not only sure; I am certain. So, I would want to say that it is not only the cost, but conflict would be removed. How many meetings will they hold, so that somebody is just appointed to occupy that position?
These other institutions I am talking about meet regularly and undertake other responsibilities. So, they require a full time person.
Mr Speaker, this is a public institution. So, I think that the Chief Executive should be the one to designate somebody to be a secretary.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Very well. Hon Members, I will take two more contributions, and then we will put the Question with regard to this proposed further amendment to the amendment, and then we can look at the main amendment itself.
Yes, Hon Ahiafor?
Mr Bernard Ahiafor 1:45 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity.
If you look at clause 1 of the Bill, and I beg to read:
“There is established by this Act a body corporate to be known as the Youth Employment Agency”.
Mr Speaker, I support the position of Hon O. B. Amoah. This is because, this is a body corporate, and do we want the Chief Executive of that body corporate to be taking minutes at a Board meeting?
Mr Speaker, I think there is the need for the Board of the Agency to have a secretary. He will be responsible for organising the meetings. He will only liaise with the Chief Executive, just like the Managing Director, in organising Board meetings and taking Board minutes.
Mr Speaker, we would have to avoid the situation where the Chief Executive of the Agency will go to Board meetings and take minutes instead of focusing on the issues before the Board. So, Mr Speaker, I support the position that we need to have a secretary to the Board who is different from the Chief Executive.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Very well.
The last contributor, Hon Member for Takoradi?
Mr Kwabena Darko-Mensah 1:45 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
I think that the Hon Member for Wa West was looking at the position of a recorder, but not a secretary to the Board. So, I feel that to have a secretary for the Board, we should support the position of Hon O. B. Amoah, so that as body corporate, we can do the right things and the good governance that we seek for youth employment would be achieved.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Very well.
Hon Members, I will put the Question with regard to this proposal by Hon Joe Gidisu before we look at the main body.
Question put and amendment nega- tived.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Now, I will put the Question with regard to the amendment proposed by the Chairman of the Committee.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Hon Members, it means that there will be a substantive secretary who will perform professional duties to a corporate body or corporate entity.
Yes, Hon Chairman?
New clause -- Internal Auditor
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, new clause add the following new clause:
“Internal Auditor
(1) There shall be appointed an Internal Auditor for the Agency.
(2) The Internal Auditor shall
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:45 a.m.


(a) be responsible to the Chief Executive in the performance of the functions of the office, and

(b) submit the report of the audit of funds allocated and accounts of the Agency to the Board through the Chief Executive Officer.

(3) The report shall be submitted at the end of every three months and shall be in respect of that period.

(4) The chairperson of the Board shall submit a copy of the report of the internal auditor to the Minister and the Minister responsible for Finance.

(5) This section shall be read and construed as one in accordance with the Internal Audit Agency Act, 2003 (Act 658) and where there is a conflict, that of the Act shall prevail.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Ahiafor?
Mr Ahiafor 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I support the amendment up to clause 4; I oppose clause 5. The reason is not far-fetched. As an Internal Auditor, one is subjected to the Internal Audit Agency Act, 2003 (Act 658). So by implication, once he or she is employed as an Internal Auditor, this particular provision is applicable to him or her. So, there is no need to have this in this particular law to be able to invoke the Internal Audit Agency Act, 2003 (Act 658).
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Thank you very much.
Hon O. B. Amoah, would you want to respond to his stance as far as subclause 5 is concerned?
1. 55p.m.
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I was looking for the Chairman of the Finance Committee. I wanted a professional to come in to advise on this matter, so that we do not drag it.
He said that it is superfluous. It is not that he opposes it as such, but he thinks that it speaks for itself. Whether in the absence of the subclause everything would be followed, I do not have a problem. Except that, I thought for the avoidance of doubt, this should be replicated here. It has been with some of the Acts that we have passed in Parliament. But if the professional would advise on whether without it, it speaks for itself, I do not have any problem at all.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Very well.
Let us listen to Hon Yieleh Chireh and then the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations.
Mr Chireh 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I agree with the amendment, but the details that are being captured, including subclause 4, is where I have the problem. But I do not have a problem with subclause 5.
Indeed, if you say that there shall be an Internal Audit Unit or division, then it means that there should be an Internal Auditor. The functions of the Internal Audit or in the Internal Audit Agency Act are defined there, what they are supposed to do.
So, subclause 5 is appropriate; you could just say that they should be appointed. But the details do not distract from it; they make it clearer, because the responsibilities of the Auditor are clearly defined. So, the only detail is what I was saying, that normally, if you look at that Act, the Internal Auditor has to send the reports to a number of people, including what he is suggesting, which is too much
detail, but once you want to appoint him under that Agency, the subclause 5 is relevant.
If we are to approve it, I do not even think we should be discussing the issue of redundancy. Sometimes, it also helps those who are not lawyers to know where to go and look for the law.
Thank you very much.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Before the Hon Minister contributes, I direct that having regard to the nature of business, proceedings go beyond the stipulated time provided by the rules, especially under Standing Order40 (2).
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, just to support the principle of the proposed amendment, and probably, to suggest that even as you put the Question, you direct that the Agency shall have an Internal Audit Agency Unit, which shall be in accordance with Act 658 of 2003, and direct the draftspersons and Attorney- General to fine tune it.
Mr Speaker, I support it because recently, there were instructions from the Office of the President about Audit Report Implementation Committee (ARIC), that every Ministry, Department and Agency should have this Audit Review Implementation Committee, and one of the noticeable facts was the fact that many of the lapses and abuses are because of weaker internal control.
So, if we can direct, the problem with my Colleague, Hon Member for Akatsi South, was for him to say that where there is a conflict of the law, one must prevail. Mr Speaker, we cannot be legislating like
that; that where there is conflict, this one prevails. I think that was the difficulty that my Colleague had in accepting his proposed amendment. But the principle of an Internal Audit Unit within the Agency, we are in harmony with him in his thought.
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
So, if I get you right, you are proposing a further amendment to Hon O. B. Amoah's amendment with regard to subclause 1, that it be done in accordance with that particular Act, and as soon as that appears, I believe it takes care of every thing.
All right. So, Hon O. B. Amoah, are you prepared to back down on subclause 5 that you proposed, so that we know the way forward?
Mr O. B. Amoah 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, as I said, I thought the subclause 5 was to enrich the whole process. If we have to do another rendition to make it clearer and better, I do not have any problem at all with that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Very well.
So, I grant leave for you to abandon that portion of your amendment.
In the meantime, there is a further amendment to his amendment, with regard to subclause 1, as proposed by the Hon Minister. So, I am going to put the Question.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee -- There is a new clause proposed by both Chairman of the Committee and Hon O. B. Amoah.
Mr O.B. Amoah 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, new clause -- add the following new clause:
“Transitional provisions
(1) The assets and liabilities of the National Youth Employment Programme and the Ghana Youth Employment and Entrepreneurial Development Agency are hereby transferred to the Agency.
(2) The Agency and a Service Provider engaged by the Agency shall operate, recruit and employ persons in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Labour Act, 2003 (Act 651) and any amendment thereof.
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (2) commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine of not more than two thousand penalty units or to a term of imprisonment of not more than five years or to both.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Chireh 1:45 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
The subclause 3 of the new clause is what is worrying me -- about the offence and the penalty. Because if you are referring to the Labour Act, I do not know whether a similar provision is in that. There would be conflict if -- and with the offence, if you look at this aspect of the offence, the penalty seems to be too harsh.
One penalty unit is GH¢ 12 and you are going to imprison people. So, I am against the high nature of the penalty. But I think that we should rather leave that out, and
since there is an amendment to include offences, we can do it -- and the degree, because if under the Labour Act, there are several aspects of flouting that law, which would attract -- If for instance, a service provider is paying people peanuts and you send him to court, or he is asking them to do more than the Labour Act provides for -- I do not know which offence you would commit and be paying such heavy penalty units to serve as a deterrent.
In Labour Relations, sometimes, you have to look at it, but I am opposed to the punishment aspect.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member for Effutu?
Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with respect to 2 (a), that the Internal Auditor shall be responsible to the Chief Executive
-- 1:45 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
We have gone past that.
Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Hon Member, you are out of order.
Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we are on page 10; are we not?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
We are dealing with transitional provisions now.
Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I take my seat.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, dealing with the transitional provisions, the first one appropriately belongs; that is the assets and liabilities of the National Youth Employment Programme and the Ghana Youth Employment and Entre- preneurial Development Agency are hereby transferred to the Agency.
It is a transitional position but the other one:
“The Agency and the Service provider engaged by the Agency shall operate, recruit and employ persons in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Labour Act, 2003 (Act 651) and any other amendment thereof”.
Why does it come under Transitional Provisions? Even the third one, we have no business being -- So, we should look at the appropriate place to locate those ones. Again, let me caution the Chairman. When you buy into somebody's idea, recognise that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
Before you make your contribution, let us look at the issue realistically. The type of employment we were going to generate from this is not always the type of employment that would satisfy minimum wages and others. It is not always the case.
In reality, how do we address that, if we relate it to the Labour Act? I would want us to address that issue seriously. This is because, you provide the person with skills and then probably, engage him as an employee, having given him or her those skills. How do you look at the salary issue?
Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Chireh 2:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the way it has been crafted is bringing the problem. This morning when we discussed this aspect, we agreed that, as the Hon Minority Leader said, the assets and liabilities be transferred to the new Agency. But this other provision, the second, which talks
about service providers, was longer than this but it is not relevant in transitional arrangements.
Otherwise, what you are saying is, service providers who already have people working for them and perhaps, conforming to the Labour Act, would be under this, you are retrospectively doing something against them.
I would want us to, as the Hon Minority Leader has indicated, even if we want to provide for how service providers should treat people they engage, then we should provide it elsewhere and provide it under the appropriate person.
In the case of the third one that I said early on, let us make it come under the new provision under offences. Again, in that one, you decide the gravity of the situation before you decide on the penalty. So, how will it be captured? But I am opposed to making this one a transitional provision.
Thirdly, the Labour Act applies to all people in this country. But as you have said, Mr Speaker, some of the employment or engagement for people may require somebody -- For instance, if we decide that we will contract out the cleaning of this Chamber to a private person, that person can get somebody who will come and do this in 30 minutes and go away. How is it going to be treated under the Labour Act? So, the flexibility needs to be there.
Therefore, in my view, this is a loose arrangement to deal with security of unemployment in the youth. So, we have to be a little malleable and flexible in what we do and not draconian -- In fact, if my Colleague were a judge, he would have been sentencing people to death.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
Yes, Hon O. B. Amoah, how do you respond to that?
Mr O. B. Amoah 2:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the day is far spent. We do not need to spend too much time on this.
The most important thing is, in the first place, Mr Speaker, the provision on the offence and penalty should not be here. It is not part of transitional provisions. The Table Office has been informed accordingly. I am sure they will be able to place it under offences and penalties. It is not part of transitional provisions. That is the first thing.
The second thing is that, Mr Speaker, under the Labour Act, there are various provisions on how we treat workers. For instance, if you look at the Order Paper for yesterday, I had even listed some of the provisions to include the rights of a worker, contract of employment, prohibition of restrictive conditions of employment; grounds for termination, employment, of persons with disability, employment of women, young persons, special provisions relating to temporary workers. All these are under the Labour Act.
What, in essence, we need to do, is, we should look at the Labour Act, and at the penalty for the offence for not complying with the provision of the Labour Act and then just fix it here.
This morning at the winnowing, we had officers from the Attorney-General's Department and they were asked to look at the offences and penalties in respect of the provisions of the Labour Act. So, it is for us to just put it together.
This is because, the fact that we are saying that we are doing youth employment, does not mean we should contravene the Labour Act. We should not accept it that it is youth employment. So, we are contravening the Labour Act. We asked the Attorney-General's Department to look at this and I think we should just accept that we are doing youth employment.
We do not go and employ a 10 year old person when the law will not allow that and say that because it is temporary, we should accept it. It will be an offence under the Labour Act. Or to discriminate against a person with disability when that person can do the job. Or discriminate against a female when the Labour Act will not allow it.
The fact that we are saying that it is emergency, we are in crisis, we should be employing the youth, does not mean we should throw away the Labour Act and do whatever we want, probably, like what is happening now. You go to our districts and there are jobs for the boys but are we complying?
You hire somebody today, no appointment letter, nothing and tomorrow, you are fired. Is that how we want to run things when we have a Labour Act?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
Yes, Hon Member, I agree with you except that once the Labour Act is in force, it can be enforced.
Mr O. B. Amoah 2:05 p.m.
Yes, that is why I have referred to the Labour Act.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Dr Appiah-Kubi?
Dr Kojo Appiah-Kubi 2:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I do share your concern that we need to be very careful when we want our youth to get jobs. These are people who may be inexperienced or without jobs. If you want to create jobs for these youth, we need to be very flexible.
Moreover, this youth agency is going to create modules which may require the youth to be working at odd hours; which may require them to earn lesser than probably the minimum wage because they want jobs; because the type of jobs may be different from the type of jobs we may be thinking of. So, we need to be very careful.
Let us move a little into the realm of economics. It is said that, anybody who is unemployed - Unemployed means that, the people who are not employed have great desires, which exceed what the market can offer. So, if we want the youth to get employment, then we should not create desires for the youth, which may be contrary to what the market can offer. We need to be very flexible.
I do share your concern that we cannot, right from the beginning, be talking about the Labour Act and rights of workers, when especially we are talking about the youth. They need to cultivate certain attitudes which may in the future help them to get jobs.
We are not saying that we should throw away the Labour Act. No! But then, since the market is very small for the youth, we need to be very flexible, so that people can create jobs for these people who are looking for jobs and not make it so restrictive that nobody may want to even offer these youth the jobs that we are talking about.
Let us think about the minimum wage. The youth or a young person who is unemployed and inexperienced should be willing to work for a wage lesser than the minimum wage because he wants a job, experience and learn on the job -- [Interruptions] -- This is in no way an abuse because --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Hon Member, address the Chair.
Dr Appiah-Kubi 2:15 p.m.
This is in no way an abuse because the youth is likely to learn on the job, and have some experience and as that person grows and gets the
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Member, the Labour Act makes provision for various categories of employees.
Dr Appiah-Kubi 2:15 p.m.
I do agree with you but at a time that jobs are very scarce, we need to be very careful for the market to be able to absorb the army of the unemployed youth. The jobs are scarce.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Very well.
Thank you very much.
Hon Ahiafor?
Mr Ahiafor 2:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I agree with the transitional provision by section (1). Mr Speaker, that is purely transitional but sections (2) and (3) cannot be said to be transitional.
Mr Speaker, furthermore, the Labour Act by itself, makes provision how recruitment and employment are to be carried out. The Labour Act by itself, creates offences and penalties. Therefore, in this particular legislation, we cannot be creating offences which are otherwise created by the Labour Act.
So, I am opposed to sections (2) and (3) of the proposed amendment made by the Chairman of the Committee and Hon Osei Bonsu Amoah.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Hon Member, the Hon Member who proposed the amendment has indicated that he
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.


thinks that those two subclauses need not be there. So, I do not think he will have any problem.
Mr O. B. Amoah 2:15 p.m.
I agree.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations?
So, those two provisions would have to be relocated and with regard to subclause (3), we have to think of whether we want to let it remain there or delete it completely because the Labour Act takes care of it. And subclause (2), that one is to do with reference to Labour Act and so on.
So, Hon Members, that being the case, shall we get Hon O. B. Amoah to probably delete those two provisions and then we deal with the transitional provisions as it stands without those two and then later, we can look at where to locate these other items if the need arises?
Yes, Hon O. B. Amoah?
Mr Amoah 2:15 p.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I have already said that the subclauses (2) and (3) are not part of the transitional provisions. So, they should be relocated as we discussed this morning.
Beyond that, I do not think there is any problem.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Members, the implication is that, those two provisions, as far as the proposed amendment goes, no longer remain part of the proposed amendment.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Very well.
I direct that the draftspersons deal with those last amendments which we have dealt with in the appropriate manner.
Yes, the new clause?
Chairman of the Committee, do you not think it would be in your own interest to abandon it in the light of --
Mr Gyan-Tutu 2:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to secure your indulgence and to abandon this insertion.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
All right. Because it has been taken care of in the Labour Act and therefore --
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:15 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not know what has become of subclause (2). But if you have to, maybe, consider it, as to the appropriate place to relocate it, it would be in the original (16). So, it may become 16 (2), that is for the second proposal in the names of the Chairman of the Committee and Hon O. B. Amoah.
Mr Speaker, having said that, the other ones, the offences and penalties, yes; what obtains here seems to relate only to recruitment and that is why they are talking about looking at the Labour laws. It is not everything here that really belongs to that law because there are many provisions in this Act and I thought we were going to look at an omnibus provision that would capture offences under this Act and not merely relating to recruitment and making them punishable by law of some sort.
So, I thought that was going to be how we were going to capture it. In the morning, when we had the discussions, that was the direction we were moving
towards. It did not relate to only labour issues. So, I think we should have a second look at that.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
Mr Chireh 2:15 p.m.
Thank you very much.
The agreement we had this morning, was that there should be general offences section, so that anybody, whether it is-- In fact, if it is in respect of recruitment, the Labour Act is there but anything else in this Act which would use the strong word, “shall”. In case the person does not do so, what do you do about it?
Yesterday, we debated here. So, if we also have, just a general one, mild because of its nature, so that we would have general penalties not exceeding a year's sentence or something. That was what we took to govern the whole Bill, not specifically setting offences.
Unless of course, you look through the Bill and there is no offence committed or which cannot be committed, then you do not provide for it. But we thought that with the Bill that says “shall do this”, “may not do that”, there should be a general offence section but it should be one that is not too excessive.
As early on mentioned by Hon Ahiafor, the thing is that, once we have other laws that have spelt out offences and punishments, it is inappropriate to be again detailing some of them here because these are latter laws, if there is conflict.
We should be guided also by the penalty rate equivalence of the number of years in prison. We seem to be tired but I would propose that the general offences things should not be more than five hundred penalty units. This is because if I was a Judge, I would be very lenient and then it would be not more than twelve months.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Chairman of the Committee has abandoned it and what Hon Yieleh Chireh has suggested is acceptable.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
So, it will mean that we will have to find a place to locate that general omnibus clause with regard to sanctions.
Hon Members, can we do it as we Sit here?
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
Can we order the Attorney General and the draftspersons to do that and take note of the comments made?
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
Then, do I direct the draftspersons to handle that for us? I am sure his Colleagues here are taking note, so that when he comes back, he would be briefed.
On that note, Hon Members, we will probably have to look at the Long Title.
Long Title -- An Act to establish the Youth Employment Agency for the purpose of the development, co- ordination, supervision and the facilitation of the creation of jobs for the youth and to provide for related matters.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, Long Title, line 3, delete “creation of jobs” and insert “employment”.
The new rendition would then be read as fallows:
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker. I am glad that the “creation of jobs” has been removed and replaced with “employment”. For elegance and correctness of the language, when you read it very closely, it would mean development of employment, co-ordination of employ- ment, supervision of employment and facilitation of employment.
I think the intention here is the development of employment programmes, the co-ordination of employment programmes, the supervision of employment programmes and the facilitation of employment programmes. So, my proposal is that, it is further amended by adding “programmes” to “employment”.
Mr Gyan-Tutu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think for the sake of the elegance, we accept this.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Members, I will put the Question.
Yes, Hon Dr Appiah-Kubi.
Dr Kojo Appiah-Kubi 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I am a bit confused the difference between “development” and “creation of jobs”. It is almost the same. So, if you would allow “development of the employment” to stay and delete “creation of jobs”, what have you done?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
If I understand what Prof. Gyan-Baffour proposed, it would mean that, it is not “development of employment” but “development of employment pro- grammes”. So if you are adding, let me put the Question.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
I will put the next Question.
Sorry. Hon Minister?
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, “programmes” may be after the Question. I wanted you to direct again because the Long Title, as you know, is a significant part of this legislation and it summarises the core objectives of it. My understanding as I listened to the Ranking Member for Trade and Industry is to say “of the employment of the youth”.
My view is that, employment is more generic than to narrow it to “employment programmes” for the youth. If you use “employment” -- omnibus, it takes care of the future employment but “programmes” would be to reduce this to the modules and that is not the intention.
Going forward, we are looking for what vehicle would be available for the employment of the young people of this country. I am sure we only experimented by way of modules. That is why we ran into all these difficulties of “Youth in Driving”, “Youth in Grasscutter” and others. We want an institution which would facilitate and prepare our young people for entrepreneurship for them to be able to have skills which would put them in the world of work.
I still think that whatever your ruling, and decision, you would direct that the draftspersons take note of the core objective of this Bill.
Thank you.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister almost got me confused by what he was saying because the very first sentence in the Memorandum accompanying this Bill, and may I draw his attention to it, that the object of the Bill is to establish the Youth Employment Agency, to develop, co-ordinate, supervise and facilitate the creation of jobs for the youth.
I keep telling the Hon Minister that, the policy underpinning this is
encapsulated in the Memorandum. So, where is he taking us again? If I may listen to him because he keeps floating.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
I would have thought that, the use of the words “the youth” after “for” takes care of the “youth” aspect of this whole exercise.
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, just to help the Minority Leader.
If you come to clause (2), under “The object of the Agency”. There was some amendment to delete “creation of jobs” for “employment” and that is why I am saying that, the emphasis has shifted to “employment”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
I will put the Question.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
The Long Title as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, there was a further amendment proposed by Prof. Gyan-Baffour. Did we buy into that?
Question put and amendment agreed to.
The proposed amendment which was further amended accordingly stands part of the Bill.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, so what would be the rendition?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
All right. Let me do it that way for the avoidance of doubt.
I have already put the Question and it has been accepted, that the amendment should stand. Now, I am putting the Question with regard to the amended Long Title and its further amendment stands part of the Bill.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
The Long Title as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, much as I think what we have done is better than what we did at first, what we have just done then would have consequential effect on “The object of the Bill” and it would also affect other parts of the Bill. That is my worry.
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, maybe, I should persuade Hon Prof. Gyan-Baffour to abandon his proposal. This is because as the Minority Leader stated, “The object of the Bill” is captured in the Memorandum, therefore, since we have always relied on abundance of caution, in order to avoid abundance of confusion, I would urge him to abandon his amendment, so that you will put the Question on the Long Title as in the original Bill.
Prof. Gyan Baffour 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think the Hon Minority Leader is not talking about mine. He is talking about the amendment they were making from changing from “job creation” to “employment”. That is what he is actually talking about and not mine. It is yours.
Minority Leader, maybe, you have to clarify it. This is because the object is saying “job creation” and the amendment is saying “employment”. Is that where your beef is? Are you alright with the word “employment”?
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:35 a.m.
Yes, that is because you have already done the amendment. The issues and programmes you introduced were my worry. But because of where we have got to, even though I thought that was also bringing
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:35 a.m.


some enhancement, if we buy into what he suggested, then we have to go over the entire process again and that is my only worry. Or we can leave with the “employment”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Hon Prof. Gyan-Baffour, I do not know, but taking a second look at your proposed further amendment, and the issue with regard to the objects of the Agency, do you not think we are going to have problems? Why do we not stick to the old rendition, so that it falls in line with clause 2 of the Bill?
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not have a problem with it. Except for the fact that, maybe, we have to leave it for the draftspersons to write it properly. This is because, even the English Language version of it, one cannot develop and coordinate employment. One can only supervise some employment and so, all the three words there cannot actually qualify “employment” and that is my concern --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Then let us look at it from another angle. You are talking about:
“to establish the Youth Employment Agency for the purpose of development, co-ordination, super- vision and the facilitation of the creation of jobs”.
So, you are looking at creation of jobs. You are talking of creation of modules or programmes for the youth. But you are also looking at, in reality, creating jobs for the youth.
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if that is the case, then I think the first rendition should stay. That one should stay without even changing it to “employment”.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Yes, Hon Minister, how do you react to that?
Mr H. Iddrisu 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, like the Hon Minority Leader said, that would have consequential effect on earlier amendments agreed to by the House. I would still think that, if I had my thesaurus dictionary I will find out what is “employment”? It is the creation of jobs. But historically, we have called it youth employment programmes.
We did not say creation of jobs programmes. I am simply saying that we should still use the generic word “employment” so that the Long Title as amended by the Hon Chairman, to the original, will stand because, we have already deleted “creation of jobs” and substituted it with “employment”. So, I would persuade my Hon Colleague to abandon it and maintain what is in it.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Prof. Gyan-Baffour 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I do not have a problem with it.
Dr Appiah-Kubi 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want us to be clear with this.
I am very much concerned about the tendency of the Agency to arrogate on to itself creating jobs and that is the danger that we fear. If we do not take care, the Agency would attempt to create the jobs by itself and that is not what we mean, that the Agency should be creating jobs.
This is because, in the environment that we find ourselves, we want the Agency to supervise and co-ordinate programmes that would lead to creation of jobs, to create the environment that would allow the private sector to create the jobs and not the Agency itself. That is, if we can make it clear and understandable for everybody and I would have no problems with anybody.
Thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Thank you very much.
Yes, Hon Majority Chief Whip?
Alhaji Muntaka 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with regard to the suggestion given by Hon Prof. Gyan-Baffour, I would want to find out from the Hon Minister and the Hon Chairman whether the words “employment programme” if used in the Long Title, would not have consequential effect on all the amendments that would have to be changed by the draftspersons, to rather take it as “employment programme” instead of “employment”. Would that be possible?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
That is where we are now. This is because of the problems it is going to create, with regard to previous amendments that have been effected and that is why we have tried to persuade him to abandon that amendment, so that we will take the amendment as proposed by the Hon Chairman of the Committee and then we move on.
Mr Chireh 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on the concerns that were raised by my Hon friend. For the purposes of the Long Title, we cannot detail out what has already been detailed first of all in the objects and the functions. The functions of the Agency are clearly defined and they know what they should be doing. So, the issue is not about them getting confused.
They have, once it has been created in this Bill, functions -- If they go outside to do things they should not be doing, we would have problems. So, I think that my Hon Friend who has recently written a book and wants to launch it, has abandoned this, I think that we should go with the original thing and make progress.
Thank you very much.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think the problem with my Hon Colleague, the Member for Atwima Kwanwoma, he seems to be thinking that the creation of jobs still exists in the object of the Agency. It has been amended and the object of the Agency is to develop, co-ordinate, supervise and facilitate the employment of the youth in the country. That is how we eventually left it.
So, the proposal is to have it reflected in the Long Title, and Prof. Gyan-Baffour was adding to the further enhancement of that construction. I think the issue that we are raising is that, if we go by what he is proposing, it would have consequential effect and we would have to go through the whole Bill again, otherwise, I think the suggestion from Hon Member for Wenchi really was going to add further illumination to what we had done.
But given the fact that they have tired limbs and we are all suffering from mental exhaustion at this time, not the order the Provincial National Defence Council (PNDC) mental exhaustion, which was diagnosed for one District Secretary, Oppong-Kyekyeku of that time.
Mr Chireh 2:35 a.m.
He was looking in my direction; that is why I am getting up to ask him why he was looking in my direction.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
But he did not mention your name. Did he? -- [Laughter.]
Mr Chireh 2:35 a.m.
He was looking in my direction.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Hon Members, in that case, I grant leave to Hon Gyan-Baffour with regard to the abandonment of his proposed further amendment.
So, let us go back and go through the exercise.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
The Long Title as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 a.m.
Hon Members, this brings us to the end of the Consideration Stage for today. I can see, as the Hon Minority Leader said, we are exhausted from the mental gymnastics.
ADJOURNMENT 2:35 a.m.
  • The House was adjourned at 2.46 p.m. till Tuesday, 10th February, 2015 at 10.00 a.m.
    • Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Hon Members can we do it as we sit here?
    Mr Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
    Can we order the Attorney General and the draftsperson to do that and take note of the comments made?
    Thank you.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Then, do I direct the drafters to handle that for us? I am sure his Colleagues here are taking note, so that when he comes back he would be briefed. On that note, Hon Members, we would probably have to look at the Long Title.
    Long Title -- An Act to establish the Youth Employment Agency for the purpose of the development, coordina- tion, supervision and the facilitation of the creation of jobs for the youth and to provide for related matters.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Very well. Chairman of the Committee?
    Mr Gyan-Tutu 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, Long Title Line 3, delete “creation of jobs” and insert “employment”
    The new rendition would then be read as fallows;
    An act to establish the Youth Employment Agency for the purpose of development, coordination, supervision and the facilitation of the employment for the youth and to provide for related matters.
    Prof Gyan-Baffour 2:25 p.m.
    Thank you Mr Speaker. I am glad that the “creation of jobs” has been removed and replaced with “employment”. For elegance and