Debates of 4 Nov 2015

MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER
PRAYERS 11:15 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 11:15 a.m.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon Members, Correction of Votes and Proceedings of Tuesday, 3rd November,
2015.
Page 1 - 15
rose
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Sorry, Hon Member, is that page 15? What page?
Mr Haruna Iddrisu 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am sorry to draw you back. However, I noted that in respect of the Immigration Bill, 2015, on pages 12 and 13, there was a particular clause that in your wisdom, you deferred. I do not see it captured that.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
I think we deffered the debate on clause 1, but that appears on page 11. Also, on clause 4, we started the debate and deferred it and that appears on page 12. Therefore, it is captured. If you look at page 12, you will see that:
“Question proposed: Debate arising
Debate deferred”

We deferred clauses 1 and 4. We started the debate on clause 1 and we did not --

[No correction was made to the Votes and Proceedings of Tuesday, 3 rd November, 2015.] [Pause].

Question time -- Minister for Transport? [Interruptions].

Hon Annoh-Dompreh; Question number 466?
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 11:25 a.m.
MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT 11:25 a.m.
Minister for Transport (Mrs Dzifa Aku Attivor) 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker -- [Interruption.]
An Hon Member 11:25 a.m.
Speak into the microphone -- [Interruption].
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Minister for Transport, please, resume your seat.

Why did you shout, please? I do not want to mention your name but I can come under Standing Order 100 -- Please, read Standing Order 100. Please, take Standing Order 100 and read it. I do not see you taking the Standing Orders -- the one who shouted. I will not mention your name but we know each other. [Laughter] Take the Standing Order and read it, otherwise, I will mention your name. [Pause.]

Hon O. B. Amoah, read it for us.
Mr Osei Bonsu Amoah 11:25 a.m.
Order 100 of the Standing Orders of the Parliament of Ghana, 100 (1):
“Mr Speaker may order a Member whose conduct is grossly dis- orderly to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of that day's sitting, and the Marshal shall act on such orders as he may receive from the Chair in pursuance of the provisions of this paragraph. But if on any occasion Mr. Speaker deems that his powers under the previous provisions of this paragraph are inadequate, he may name such Member or Members, in which event the same procedure shall be followed as is prescribed in Order 99, this Order and Order 101".
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Please read 100 (2) as well.
Mr O. B. Amoah 11:25 a.m.
Order 100 (2):
“Mr Speaker. may name any Member who disregards the authority of the Chair.”
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr O. B. Amoah.
I think that we should all be guided by the Standing Orders. I will not tolerate shouting.
Minister for Transport, please, answer the Question.
Mrs Attivor 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, at my last appearance on 18th November, 2014 to answer the same Question, I indicated that the eastern line and the Boankra Inland port have been put together as one project. The eastern line is from Accra to Kumasi with a branch line to Tema.
I also indicated that the Ministry had engaged Pricewaterhouse Coopers as transaction advisers to advise on a Public Private Partnership (PPP) option and to assist in engaging a private sector investor to partner Government to “executive” the project. The Consultant has com- pleted the feasibility study and is putting together the request for proposal for bidding.
Basic maintenance works continue to be carried out by the Ghana Railway Company Limited to ensure safety of operations on the line. About 1,195 wooden sleepers and 200 steel sleepers have been changed this year.
Mr Speaker, while waiting for the project, the Ministry has taken the initiative to speed up the process for the Accra-Nsawam section of the line. In this regard, the Ministry has engaged Team Engineering as a consultant to do the Front End Engineering Design (FEED) for the Accra-Nsawam section of the line.
The FEED and Environmental and Social Impact Assessment of the line is nearing completion. This will allow detailed design of the section and prepare it for construction subject to the availability of funds.
Mr Annoh-Dompreh 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with respect, I have in my hand, the Official Report of Tuesday, the 18th of November, 2014, which contained the Answer the Hon Minister gave. Comparing that to the Answer she just gave, it is by and large the same.
Now, I find that there is a little that has been done in the Ministry lately. My question is respectfully, what is Government's commitment to the Nsawam end of the railway line beyond the seeming rhetoric of Government?
Thank you.
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Government is committed to the development of the rail sector. As I indicated, we have engaged a transaction adviser to work on the revamping of the eastern line, which consists of Accra - Nsawam, which forms part of the eastern rail line. The feasibility report is ready and the bidding document is being prepared.
Mr Annoh-Dompreh 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I have toured the Nsawam section of the lines not once, not twice, but three times with the media. Making reference to the third paragraph of the Answer of the Hon Minister, Mr Speaker, with your kind permission, if I can read:
“Basic maintenance works continue to be carried out by the Ghana Railway Company Limited to ensure safety of operations on the line. About 1,195 wooden sleepers and 200 steel sleepers have been changed this year.”
Mr Speaker, even though I take that with a pinch of salt, I would still go ahead and ask my second supplementary question.
Would the Hon Minister accept the challenge of touring that section of the line with me to assess the extent of abandonment by this Government?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Minister, he wants to accompany you.
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to assure the Hon Member that I am always available.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Minister, you are always available to go with him --That is alright.
Mr Annoh-Dompreh 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is refreshing to hear and I would want to assure the Hon Minister, that I would soon

come to her office and we would go to inspect that section of the road, so that she could appreciate the extent of abandonment I am talking about.

Mr Speaker, my last follow up question, respectfully.

As part of her Answer, she said that the Pricewaterhouse Coopers were tasked by her Ministry to execute a contract. I am sure, by extension, I can believe that by this time her Ministry should be able to give us a conservative costing in terms of how much the project would cost this nation, specifically the Nsawam section of the railway line.

Mr Speaker, I am interested in conservative cost.
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the total cost of the replacement of the sleepers is
GH¢65,725.00.
rose
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
I will start from the back and come forward. I have seen those who have stood up and I will recognise all of you.
Mr Kwame Asafu-Adjei 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the Hon Minister, as compared to other railway lines -- is the Nsawam-Accra railway line a priority on her agenda?
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the development of railway in Ghana is of a priority to this Government. As I indicated, the Accra-Nsawam section of the railway line is part of the eastern rail line, which is going through the process for re-construction.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon Minister, you were asked whether it is a top priority? You said it is a priority. Is it top or not priority. Is it a top priority Hon Minister?
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I can say it is a top priority but subject to availability of funds.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Thank you.
Hon Member for Nkawkaw?
Mr Eric K. Darfour 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to ask the Hon Minister for Transport, how profitable the Ghana Railway line is, specifically, the Accra rail line.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Do you mean the Accra-Nsawam rail line?
Mr Darfour 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Accra- Nsawam rail line, how profitable is it? The way it is ranked now, is it not a drain on the country?
Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think a supplementary question should have reference to the subject matter under discussion. But asking about the profitability of a railway line that is going to be revamped, I think this could also be a substantive Question and he should come as such.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
What order are you talking about?
Mr A. Ibrahim 11:35 a.m.
I am referring to Standing Order --
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Your microphone, please?
Mr A. Ibrahim 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if we may make reference to Standing Order 69 (1).
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Yes, read it.
Mr A. Ibrahim 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with your kind permission, it says:
“As soon as a Question is answered in the House any Member beginning with the Member who asked the Question may, without
notice, ask a supplementary Question for the further elucidation of any matter of fact regarding which the answer has been given, but a supplementary Question must not be used to introduce matter not included in the Original Question”
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Thank you.
However, I will rule against you and I will give the Hon Minister, if she so desires, the opportunity to answer the Question.
She has just been asked if it is a profitable line. If she feels that she would need more time to answer, I would not force it; but if she feels that she wants to answer it -- Perhaps, she would want to answer it. So, I leave it to the Hon Minister's choice.
Mr A. Ibrahim 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am grateful.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
I think it is related. If you are revamping a line, maybe, you are doing it for social purpose or profit -- maybe, I do not know. The Hon Minister will want to help us.
Hon Minister, if you think you need more time, we will not compel you to answer it, but if you have information - Do you want to answer it, Hon Minister? Or you will let it pass?
All right.
So, I will give you an opportunity to ask another question.
Mr K. Asafu-Adjei 11:35 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The Hon Minister herself has told this House that, the railway business is a priority to the country. As is the case now, we know we are running short distances -- Accra-Nsawam, Accra-Tema and it would be of utmost interest to this House to know how profitable the railway business is in the country --
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Do not worry.
Mr K. Asafu-Adjei 11:35 a.m.
Specifically, how profitable is it to that stretch being talked about by my Hon Colleagues?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
I think your question is so important that you should bring it as a substantive Question.
Mr K. Asafu-Adjei 11:35 a.m.
All right.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Can the Hon Minister tell this House how the Accra-Nsawam line is helping the communities within the stretch?
Mrs Attivor 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Accra- Nsawam railway line provides means of transportation to the people living along that community, especially our market women who bring foodstuffs to the Accra-Kantamanto station for sale.
Rail transportation, in many jurisdictions, is more of a social service as far as passenger transportation is concerned.
Mr Titus Glover 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with your permission, I would want to quote from the Answer given by the Hon Minister and then I ask my question. She states:
“Basic maintenance works continue to be carried out by the Ghana Railway Company Limited to ensure safety of operations on the line. About 1,195 wooden sleepers and 200 steel sleepers have been changed this year.”
My Hon Colleague just told this House that there is nothing happening, but the Hon Minister says this has been done.
Respectfully, I would want to find out if she has been to the ground herself to ascertain the work that has been done, which has been captured here.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to confirm that sections of the rail line have seen some maintenance works. For example, at Mile 12, 6-9 poles, that is, Dome to Amasaman, miles 16, 8-11 poles, Amasaman to Kotoku; mile 16, 1-3 poles, Amasaman to Mile 10, 10-12 poles, Dome to Amasaman.
Mr Speaker, it continues. Work has been done.
Mr Titus-Glover 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, my question was whether she has been to the ground. That is all.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Titus-Glover, there are many ways, as it is said, to kill a cat. The Hon Minister has particularised the changes that have taken place. So, let us take it as it is.
Mr Patrick Yaw Boamah 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, this is a follow up from the question by my Hon Colleague, Titus-Glover. I would want to ask the Hon Minister which company undertook that basic maintenance works on the stretch, and how much it cost the State.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
The second part of the question has been answered. If I remember, she said, it was
GH¢65,000.00.
Hon Minister, answer the first part of the question.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Ghana Railway Company Limited does maintenance works on the railway lines. As I said earlier, the cost of the 1,195 sleepers that have been changed is GH¢65,725.00.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, the Hon Member for Yagaba Kubori?
Mr Mustapha Ussif 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to find out from the Hon Minister whether she can confirm to this House, that the Accra-Nsawam railway line is operational.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Mustapha, did you ask about another line?
Mr Ussif 11:45 a.m.
No! Mr Speaker, I asked about the same line. She said she had done some work on the line and I would want her to confirm to this House whether that line is operational.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Accra- Nsawam railway line is operational. We have two rounds of operations. The first departure from Nsawam is at 5:15 a.m. and arrives in Accra at 7:15 a.m. The train departs Accra at 10:00 a.m. and arrives in Nsawam at 12:00 noon.
Mr Speaker, in the second round, the train departs Nsawam at 12 11:45 a.m.
30 p.m. and arrives in Accra at 2:30 p.m. It then departs Accra at 5:30 p.m. and arrives in Nsawam at 7:30 p.m.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Yes, Hon Joe Appiah?
Mr Justice Joe Appiah 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, may I crave your indulgence to read an Answer from the Hon Minister's.--
“I also indicated that the Ministry has engaged Pricewaterhouse Coopers as transaction advisers to advise on a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) option and to assist in engaging a private sector investor to partner Government to execute the project. The Consultant has completed the feasibility study and is putting together a request for proposal for bidding.”
Mr Speaker, may I ask the Hon Minister, the PPP initiative is becoming an excuse for delaying the project.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
So, your question?
Mr J. J. Appiah 11:45 a.m.
I would get to my question.
Ever since 2010, the PPP has been on railway lines. Now, it is left with one year for the National Democratic Congress (NDC) Administration. What is she doing as a sector Minister to bring this dream into reality?We have elections next year. What is she doing as the sector Minister?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Joe Appiah, I think the Answer is on page 18 of the Order Paper. The Answer on what the Ministry is doing is on page 18.
Mr J. J. Appiah 11:45 a.m.
As the sector Minister, what is she doing to ensure that within the one year the railway line --
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Which railway line?
Mr J. J. Appiah 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Nsawam railway line.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
But the dream is in the Answer.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
What I am saying is that, the PPP started in 2010; next year, Mr Speaker, we would have elections.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Joe Appiah, you may disagree with the mission; you may think that the dream is not good enough.
However, on page 18, we have what the Ministry, headed by her, intends to do. If you disagree with it, it does not matter. However, if you ask her, then you are asking her to read page 18 again. She has told us her mission.
Do you want to rephrase your question or should I let you pass and come back to it? If you ask what her vision is, her vision is what is contained on the page. All right. I will come back to you.
Hon Patricia Appiagyei?
Ms Patricia Appiagyei 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, from the Hon Minister's Answer, she indicated the engagement of Pricewaterhouse Coopers as transaction advisers to advise on the PPP option and the same time, she has taken another initiative to address the issue. I see this effort as a duplication.
I would like to find out from her, which of these lines of action is being undertaken at the moment by the Ministry.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Minister, the Hon Member sees two lines of action in your Answer and she would want to know which one you are undertaking.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
I have indicated that the Ministry had engaged the services of Pricewaterhouse Coopers as a transaction adviser to advise the Government and to also get a contractor investor to develop the eastern railway line, which starts from Accra to Kumasi, through a PPP process. That is what the Ministry is pursuing.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Member for Bekwai?
Mr Joseph Osei -Owusu 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am referring to the Answer. On the last but two lines of the second paragraph, the Hon Minister's Answer says that:
“…assist in engaging a private sector investor to partner Government to executive the project.”
I think she wanted to say “execute”.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
She changed it.
Mr Osei- Owusu 11:45 a.m.
May I know from the Hon Minister; what are the details of the third PPP arrangement? What specifically is the transaction adviser being engaged to do in the railway sector?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Member, I think it is in the Answer, or am I confused? It says;
“ …Pricewaterhouse Coopers as transaction advisers to advise on a PPP option and to assist in engaging a private sector investor to partner Government to execute the project.”
Anyway, Hon Minister?
11. 55 a.m.
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would like to recap what I have here. Paragraph 3:
“I also indicated that the Ministry has engaged Pricewaterhouse Coopers as transaction advisors to advise on a PPP option and to assist in engaging a private sector investor to partner Government to execute the project…”
Mr Speaker, the project refers to what I have in the second paragraph, which is the eastern line in the Boankra Inland port.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Minister, the paragraphing of your document and what we have is different. So what you just said is in our first paragraph and not the second.
“The eastern line and the Boankra Inland Port have been put together as one project” -- is in our first paragraph. So when you refer to your Answer, please, do not refer to paragraphs. Just read. This is because the paragraphs are a little different.
Hon Member for Mpohor?
Mr Alex K. Agyekum 11:45 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.
Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the Hon Minister and I do so based on what we were told at the beginning of this financial year, that this Government has moved from activity-based budget to programme- based budget.
Mr Speaker, there is a phrase that to the best of my knowledge, almost all Hon Ministers who have been summoned to this House have been using a lot and it is: “subject to the availability of funds”. I would like to ask the Hon Minister if this particular railway line was budgeted for this year and if so, we are in the last quarter of the year, when are we going to see its exact execution?
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the last line:
“This will allow detailed design of the section and prepare it for construction subject to availability of funds.”
It is in relation to Accra to Nsawam line. But the whole line stretches from Tema to Kumasi and that is what we are working on with the transaction adviser through a PPP process.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Member for Sekondi?
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, presumably, the transaction adviser has advised the Government on the PPP of the Boankra Project, together with the eastern railway line and of course, this has been going on for some time. Could the Hon Minister give us an indication as to when the request for the proposal would be ready?
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with your permission, if I could submit this answer at a later date because I do not have it now.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Thank you.
Hon Dr Nana Ato Arthur?
Dr Stephen N. A. Arthur 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on the 18th November, 2014, the Hon Minister indicated to us that the Pricewaterhouse Coopers' contract was expected to end in the year 2015 and that, that would be the time a private sector investor would be procured to partner Government for the execution of the project.
In paragraph 2 of her Answer today, the consultant has completed the feasibility study and is putting together the request for the proposal for bidding. How certain is the Hon Minister that, by the end of this year, a private sector investor would be procured to partner Government to execute this project?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Minister?
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, time lines have been revised to the middle of next year because of the challenges we go through to get no objection from the World Bank, which is financing the project.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Member for Dormaa Central?
Mr Kwaku Agyeman-Manu 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would just try to read from the Hon Minister's Answer and I would not wish that the Hon Deputy Majority Chief Whip would intervene and say that my question is not related to the subject matter. I would try to link it.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
What is your question?
Mr Agyeman-Manu 11:45 a.m.
My question is that, if she tells this House that the transaction adviser is advising and they are going to go via the PPP window, in my view, it does not reconcile with the commitment on the part of Government to develop any railway. Could she then tell us whether this Government has any serious commitment on railway development?
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Minister?
Mrs Attivor 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, Cabinet approved the PPP Policy and we are working with that document and I am aware that the Bill is on its way to this august House.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:45 a.m.
Hon Dr Appiah-Kubi?
Dr Kojo Appiah-Kubi 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want the Hon Minister to reconcile the first bit of her Answer as contained in the second paragraph and the last bit as contained in the last paragraph.
Indeed, the Hon Minister talks about the Ministry having engaged a consultant to look for a PPP or to arrange for a PPP. At the same time, the Hon Minister, with her limited resources, has engaged
another consultant to do a front end engineering of only the Nsawam section of the railway line. What was the need to engage another consultant when the Hon Minister knows very well that the funds would not be available?
So, I would want her to reconcile these two bits of her Answer -- to engage a consultant in the first place to look for an investor and at the same time, engage another consultant to do an engineering design for only the Nsawam bit when she knows that there are no funds for that Nsawam bit to be undertaken --
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Member, what is your question?
Dr Appiah-Kubi 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, my question is, was there any need to engage the second consultant to do only the front end of the Nsawam section of the railway line, knowing very well that there are no funds available?
Mrs Attivor 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the consultant in question works directly for the Ghana Railway Development Authority and based upon the Question that I answered last year, we were working to rehabilitate the Accra-Nsawam Railway Line, so that it will be operational, to be operated efficiently. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker, I said that the second consultant in question, who has been engaged to do the Front End Engineering Design (FED) for the Accra-Nsawam Railway Line, is a consultant for Ghana Railway Development Authority. And because of the urgency of the Accra- Nsawam Railway Line, we thought doing the front engineering design would help us to get the cost of the project, to enable funding from Government to execute the project.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Isaac Osei, I saw you rise earlier -- The last question from you.
Mr Isaac Osei 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, my question has been asked by another Hon Member.
Thank you.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Sorry --
Hon Minority Leader?
Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Answer provided by the Hon Minister, the third paragraph where she said:
“Basic maintenance works continue to be carried out by the Ghana Railway Company Limited to ensure safety of operations on the line. About 1,195 wooden sleepers and 200 steel sleepers have been changed this year.”
I would want to believe that it relates to the eastern rail line. That is from Accra to Kumasi with a branch line to Tema.
Mr Speaker, the 1,195 wooden sleepers and 200 steel sleepers would translate to just about one mile, given the spacing of the sleepers or perhaps 1.5 kilometres. And given the fact that the total kilometrage of the eastern railway line is about 290 kilometres, when is the basic maintainance works on the line intended to finish?
Mrs Attivor 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the basic maintenance works cover the stretch between Accra and Nsawam. That is where the 1,195 wooden sleepers have been changed, not the entire Tema to Kumasi line.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, in an earlier response to a follow up
question that was asked, the Hon Minister said that it was the paragraph 4 that related to Nsawam-Accra section of the line. So, I am surprised that, she said that this one relates to just the Nsawam portion.
But be that as it may, she says to us that the maintenance works that are being carried out by the Ghana Railway Company Limited is to ensure the safety of operations of the line. Can the Hon Minister tell us the length of the stretch that is safe for operations?
Mrs Attivor 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the maintenance works are carried out where it is necessary. Some of the sleepers go bad and they need replacement.
Mr Speaker, if there is the need for the total stretch, which the 1,195 wooden sleepers have been used, then I can provide the answer later, because I do not have it now.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:05 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader?
Hon Minister, thank you for attending upon this House. You are accordingly discharged.
Let me remind you that there is one Question for which you said you would supply a Written Answer.
No Statement has been admitted.
At the commencement of Public Business.
Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 12:05 p.m.
Mr Speaker, we may go to item number 12 -- Immigration Service Bill, 2015 at the Consideration Stage.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:05 p.m.
The Immigration Service Bill, 2015 at the Consideration Stage.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:15 p.m.
STAGE 12:15 p.m.
  • [Resumption of Debate from 03/11/ 2015]
    • Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, we deferred clause 1 yesterday. Should we take it again?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I had some discussions with some Hon Colleagues yesterday before I left the Chamber. I thought that the construction of clause 1 was not very tidy.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was saying that we could have a construction -- Yes, every Bill that is crafted by this House is done pursuant to the constitutional provisions. So, I thought it was not necessary indicating that we are doing this Bill in accordance with article 190 of the Constitution.
    We could say that:
    “There is established by this Act the Immigration Service.''
    If you would want us to include that it is “pursuant to article 190 of the Constitution”, then that could come after it. I think that even if we would want to include that, which I find superfluous, it could come rather at the tail and not be the operative phraseology at the beginning of that construction.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, but you said that every Bill was made pursuant to the Constitution? What do you mean by that statement?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Constitution --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    This particular Bill comes under article 190. The Constitution also gives the power to enact laws with the President through Bills. So, it is not every Bill that is referable to a particular provision of the Constitution.
    There are several Bills that are not referable to any particular provision of the Constitution. The Bills are made pursuant to Parliament's power under the Constitution. But this Bill -- article 190 and if you look at the Parliamentary Services Act, I think it is article 284. I think so. If I am correct.
    There are certain Bills which are referable directly to a provision of the Constitution, for example, the Police Service, the Parliamentary Service and other Services under article 190. But there are other Bills that are made arising out of Parliament's constitutional power to make Bills. So, when you say that every Bill is referable to the Constitution, I just want to understand what you mean.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Constitution is the supreme law of this land. Article 1 (2) provides:
    “This Constitution shall be the supreme law of Ghana and any other law found to be inconsistent with any provision of this Constitution shall, to the extent of the inconsis- tency, be void.”
    Mr Speaker, there is a necessary implication that every Bill that is done should be consistent with the Constitution.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    That is without doubt. What you just stated is based on --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    That is why I think that it is an overkill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    All right.

    You cannot hear me? What you just stated is a fact and it is based on what is known in constitutional law as Kelson's Grand Law.

    In addition to what you just said, we all agree also that Parliament has the power under the Constitution to make laws by Bills. But there are certain Bills which are referable to particular provisions of the Constitution such as article 190.

    Article 190 refers specifically to certain Bills and the Parliamentary Service Act -- Can I have the Parliamentary Service Act, please? You may describe it as an overkill but it is not out of place -- Is it out?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, by that --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    I think Hon Haruna Iddrisu is yearning to come to your defence. He cannot restrain himself. So, I do not want him to get out of control. I know he is a man of calm disposition.
    Hon Haruna Iddrisu, let us hear you.
    Mr Haruna Iddrisu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I believe that the Hon Minority Leader is very right and we have persuaded the Hon Minister, led by the Hon Deputy Minister, our Hon Colleague, Hon Agalga and the Hon Chairman to drop it.
    Mr Speaker, if I may indulge you and seek your leave, having listened to the Hon Minority Leader and to other comments yesterday made by other Hon Members, I would think that clause 1 should read -- with your indulgence, I so submit;
    “There is established by this Act the Immigration Service”.
    I even want to still relate it to article 190, then we say, “as part of the Public Service.”
    What article 190 does is to list Public Service entities under the Constitution but we are not obliged. Mr Speaker, to say because it says that Immigration Service and the Fire Service are both part of the Public Service, we should say “in accordance with the Constitution”. So, if the Hon Chairman has no objection, it should read as fallows:
    “There is established by this Act, the Immigration Service which shall be part of the Public Service”.
    Even that is not necessary but for the purposes of satisfying their reference to article 190, I think that to start with “in accordance with article 190 of the Constitution”, Mr Speaker, I agree with Hon Minority Leader.
    We are establishing the Service and we are creating it as part of the Public Services of Ghana. Even if we pass this Bill, it becomes an Act of Parliament. It will still be inferior to the Constitution which recognises that it is part of the Public Service of Ghana.
    Hon Chairman and Hon Deputy Minister, if you have no objection, clause 1 should read:
    “There is established by this Act, the Immigration Service”.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we think that the provision as it stands, is in clear conformity with article 190. Mr Speaker, I say so because, the Immigration Service is established under the Constitution. So, it is not the business of this House to establish the Immigration Service, as if it is not in existence. It has already been established. So, if this House has to enact legislation in pursuance of that provision, clear reference must be made - - [Interruption]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, order. So, that we can follow the interesting discussion.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the point is that, the Immigration Service has already been established by article 190 of the Constitution. So, we cannot of course, frame the language to read as if it is this House which is now in the process of trying to establish the Immigration Service anew. It is already in existence. So, if we have to -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Speaker, I would want to support my argument with similar enactments. The Police Service Act is very clear. It is also in pursuance with article 190 and the rendition is very similar to what we have here. My Act is with Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    If I can read it for you.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, I will be grateful.
    12. 25 p.m.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    The Police Service Act. “The Police Service as provided for by article 190 of the Constitution.” What you are saying is that article 190 has already established it and that is why the law said “by article 190 of the Constitution”.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    So Mr Speaker, if the rendition is that “in accordance with article 190” what is the difference? There is no difference in meaning. We are making reference to the specific constitutional provision which established it.
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am surprised at my Hon Colleague's comments, in that, this House has no business trying to establish, maybe, the Immigration Service.
    Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that, I am leading this side, and I wonder whether we should suspend the Consideration Stage and do other things since we have no business establishing anything with regard to the Immigration Act. What we are doing is equally constitutional.
    The fact that it is mentioned in article 190, does not mean that -- You come with a rendition when we are trying to amend the rendition for it to really fall in line with what we have been doing -- you keep insisting that once it is in accordance with article 190, this House has no business establishing any other thing but to keep it as it is, then maybe, you want to go and work with the 1992 Constitution only in your office without an Act.
    I say so because this House has every business to establish Acts and there cannot be any Act established which does not pass through this House. So, we have every business to do with it. Mr Speaker,
    I would want to suggest that, we take the amendment with probably, the same format as we did with the Police Service Act.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Deputy Minister should take a cue from what is happening on the floor if he wants us to make progress. This is because we can continue arguing the whole of this and then the Bill would not be passed.
    Yesterday, it started and we had to stand it down in order to make progress. Today, he is bringing it back -- If he is not careful, what is going to happen is that, we would spend all the time arguing this establishment while the actual work is there.
    I would want him to take a cue and ask himself, if the rendition is changed, would that change the Immigration Service Act? In my humble opinion, no. So, he should take a cue and help make sure that we make genuine progress rather than wasting all the time arguing about whether it should be established.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Muntaka, I do not know which of your pieces of advice I should take. Yesterday, you advised me that we should take our time and argue every point. Today, you are saying that we should take time. Otherwise, you are warning. I do not know whether they are threats or -
    Which of the -- Should I take yesterday's advice or I should take the yesterday's amendment?
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I still maintain the position I took yesterday. I am saying that, let us take time and argue this out. What I am saying is that, the Hon Deputy Minister should take a cue from
    this House. This is because with the greatest of respect, there are a lot of Hon Members here who have seen so many Bills passed through their hands.
    We can take much time arguing whether his position is right or the position of others is right. And they are all giving suggestions for the whole day. But at the end of the day, he, the Hon Deputy Minister leading to get this Bill passed, should ask himself whether that will inure to his benefit?
    This is because after this week probably, when the budget sets in, nobody is going to find any extra space to deal with this. So, he being the Hon Minister leading, I am only drawing his attention to that.
    We can spend the whole day talking about this but if he takes a cue from the senior Hon Members, we would make progress and finish this, maybe, today or probably, tomorrow. But if he chooses to lead the resistance to senior Hon Members' suggestion, well, it is up to him. All I am doing is to draw his attention to what is happening.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Muntaka, you said, if he chooses to lead the resistance, is he resisting anything?
    Anyway, Hon Deputy Minister, do not lead the resistance; you are told. What is your view on the matter? You do not also change your position you strongly believe in.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect, I am not leading any resistance. I want this Bill passed expeditiously by this august House. But Mr Speaker, the position we have taken is that -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon K. T. Hammond, you are completely out of order. How can you sit at that side and
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.


    speak? You are completely out of order. You cannot do that. You know the Constitution's position on crossing carpet. Have you crossed carpet?

    Hon Minority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe my Hon Colleague, the Member for Adansi Asokwa (Mr K. T. Hammond) may be advised that, he cannot speak from that side of the House. It would amount to crossing carpet. He cannot speak from there, even if he has gone there to transact any business.
    Mr Speaker, I think that despite the issues that you have raised, the Hon Minister is insistent. Mr Speaker, he quoted 190. Let him look at article 190 (3). It provides:
    “Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, an Act of Parliament enacted by virtue of clause (1) of this article shall provide for --”
    And the provisions have been listed. So, the mere mention of it in clause (1) does not mean that it has been established. Indeed, if you look at article 200, the Police Service has also been listed in 190 (1). Look at article 200, it states:
    “There shall be a Police Service of Ghana.”
    ‘It must be established'. And we are talking about creating the Service. It has been mentioned there, that “it must be created”. If we are talking about funds, so, Contingency Fund is mentioned and Consolidated Fund is mentioned and is created because it is mentioned in the Constitution? Who says so?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, thank you.
    Let us look at the Commission on Human Rights and Administrative Justice (CHRAJ) Act in the laws of Ghana. The rendition is that:
    “There is established in accordance with article 216 of the Constitution, the Commission on Human Rights and Administrative Justice.”
    Can we say that “there is established in accordance with article 190, the Immigration Service”? Can we say that?
    Chairman of Committee, can we say that?
    Hon Minority Leader, can we say that?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I say that, if we want to capture it as flowing from the Constitution, the subject then should be the establishment of the Immigration Service.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, suggest the wording in line with -- “there is established in accordance with article 190 of the Constitution” --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:15 p.m.
    There is established by this Act. This is because, it is the Act that is establishing it. “There is established by this Act, the Immigration Service” -- If you like, “in accordance with article 190".
    Question put and Motion agreed to..
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:15 p.m.
    I did not hear the Hon Minister say Aye.
    Mr Agalga 12:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I said Aye.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, do you want to take me back?
    Dr Prempeh 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to draw your attention to article 109 of our Standing Orders in reference to article 104 (1). As the Hon Deputy has reechoed what the Hon Majority Chief Whip said, we have been cautioned that we do not have half of Hon Members here. Therefore, all Questions must not be put. When we have a half of all Hon Members here, then we put all the Questions, so that we can -
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 1 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    The question is, can the Hon Speaker be in contempt of the Standing Orders? I do not think so. [Laughter] --The Standing Orders are in my bosom, thankfully. Even the Constitution, while I sit here, it is in my bosom. Unless the Supreme Court says that what I am doing is wrong, everything I am doing is right.
    That is not the case. Of course, we will not breah the law, but we will make progress. And for the record, what was said is jest. The Hon Speaker is not above the Constitution. The Constitution is above the Hon Speaker.
    Yes, Hon Members, should we take the clause 4 or we should continue and come back to it later? The clause 4 that was deferred, should we take that?
    Mr Fritz Frederic Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would defer to the Hon Minister.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    What should we do? Should we take the clause
    4?
    The Hon Chairman should agree to that.
    Mr Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would want to take clause 4. But I would like to defer to the Hon Minister.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    All right. Clause 4, amendment advertised as (ii).
    Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Clause 4 - Functions of the Service
    Mr Fritz Fredrick Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4, paragraph (a), line 2, after ‘‘borders'', delete ‘‘of the country''.
    Mr Joseph Yieleh Chireh 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I propose the amendment because if you look at the Bill, “everywhere of the country” is added. If we just delete the “borders from the country” in that particular one, then unless we ask that it be consequentially ordered. However, it is in a context.
    It must be in the context of the country -- “borders of the country”. There is nothing offensive about it and I think we should rather drop it. Subsequent clauses show that “of the country” is always in the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, what should we do? When a Judge asks you, what should we do, then he is asking you to withdraw your amemdment. I did not say I am asking you to withdraw it. I said, when a Judge asks you. ‘‘Counsel, what we should do?'' Then he is advising you to withdraw.
    Mr Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would withdraw it for now.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, what should we do?
    Mr Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    With the leave of Mr Speaker, we would withdraw the amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Thank you.
    Leave is granted. The amendment is accordingly withdrawn.
    Amendment withdrawn by leave of the House.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Yes, let the Hon Chairman --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with respect, the (iii) is going to deal with a new paragraph. However, I would want us to have a second look at the subclause (b), which relates to ensuring the application to “ensure the application of the law relating to the immigration and employment of non Ghanaians in the country”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, the amendment has not even been proposed.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just looked at it and as the discussion -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    No! Let the Hon Chairman propose the amendment first, then you add your friendly amendment to the proposed amendment.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is before the next one he is going to-- This is in respect of subclause (b).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Is it in respect of subclause (b)? That is alright.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman's amendment is on subclause (a).
    An Hon Member 12:35 p.m.
    It is on subclause (b).
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    All right. I did not know that. If it is on subclause (a), then we can allow that.
    Hon Chairman's own amendment is on subclause (a).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Or is it a new paragraph?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is a new paragraph.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    A new paragraph is at the end. It should be --
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is why I am saying that we should look at subclause (b).
    Mr Speaker, if I may -- The Immigration Service Bill deals with two legs -- immigration and emigration. I thought that for subclause (b), we could add emigration”. We are going to deal with the two precisely -- immigration and emigration, and employment of non Ghanaians in the country.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, do you mean “migration” without an “I”?
    Mr Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I can explain. immigration and emigration are two different things but they relate to the Immigration Service too. This is because it is to do with going across the borders in and out.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    So, if a non Ghanaian is going outside, does it concern us? Does he need an exit visa?
    Mr Baffour 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it does concern us. This is because when one emigrates and immigrates illegally and he or she has a problem, it relates to the country and we have to ensure that when a person is immigrating, that person has the right documentation and all that. And I think that is the remit of the Immigration Service.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Does it affect us if somebody from another country leaves Ghana without the correct document for the country he is going to?
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
    Mr Chireh 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that the amendment being proposed by the Hon Minority Leader is inappropriate. This is because if he wants to add “immigration” and “emigration”, then the better word would have been “migration”. Importantly, however, we are talking about the Immigration Service and we would have to put it in the context.
    What is the role of the Immigration Service in terms of people who are leaving the country and those who are coming in? He suggested “emigrates” and “immigrates”. However, I think that “migration” would have been a better word.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    I do not know. I think that, that subclause (b), deals with something that is quite clear. It deals with non Ghanaians coming into Ghana and getting employed. It does not deal with non Ghanaians who leave Ghana.
    Dr Prempeh 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, why we might have to use the word that covers it, makes it simpler. I can understand.
    Mr Speaker, we have to capture those who come here to work. Now that we sign and approve all sorts of double taxation laws, we have to make sure that people who come here and work, when they go, they do not go out illegally. They must be subject to some taxes that they would want to evade.
    Mr Speaker, the proponents of the Bill must tell us why this whole clause, we ought to think about that. It is about employment. And if it is about employ- ment, it is about taxation. And what if a person just leaves without fulfilling his tax obligation to this country?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, that did not come under the Immigration Law. It comes under the -- Anyway, I do not want to --
    Hon Chairman, why? It is not the Hon Chairman who proposed this amendment. Is it not the Hon Deputy Minister?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu, the people are asking for better and further particulars. As Hon Muntaka said, “in normal language, what is the justification for your proposed amendment?”
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if one is exiting the country, one must still subscribe to the laws of the Immigration Service. If one is exiting, that is where one has to show one's documents and make declarations about currencies that one is carrying outside and so on and so forth. One must apply himself or herself to it. It has two legs.
    I do not know whether he wants to create a new subclause out of that, but I think that we need to deal with it. Otherwise, we are dealing with people coming into the country alone and not those exiting our borders. It is the remit of the Immigration Service.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, if I can ask you a friendly question. I understand what you are saying. This is because, when you are travelling, you fill certain forms to indicate that you are going out, whether you are a Ghanaian or non Ghanaian. However, why do we call it the Ghana Immigration Service? Why are we restricting ourselves to it? This is because, we are saying that immigration with an “I” and emigration with an “e”. Why is it not the Ghana Migration Service, for example? Why is it the “Ghana Immigration Service”?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am not in the position to tell. However, I know that in some jurisdictions, they just call them border controls.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    What do they call them then?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Border controls. Whether a person is exiting or entering the jurisdiction, it is just border control.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Haruna Iddrisu?
    Maybe, we will do the far reaching thing of changing the name.
    Hon Minority Leader, would you not want to suggest that?
    Mr Haruna Iddrisu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would wish to persuade the Hon Minority Leader to abandon his insistence on tampering with clause 4 (b) in particular.
    Mr Speaker, it relates to enforcement of laws relating to immigration and employment. For instance, if you are travelling to the United States of America (USA), once you arrive in the USA, you are subject to their own domestic laws.
    For example, you cannot work without a social security number; you cannot work if you do not have some acceptable minimum requirement of their employment.
    This is important, particularly in respect of employment because there are defined quotas for immigrants who enter that country and the level to which they are permitted to work.
    As national law, preference is always given to a country's own citizens, which is a moral thing that every country would do. Therefore, I would like to persuade the Hon Minority Leader, that once he boards the plane and flies to America or Europe, he would be subjected to the immigration laws of that country and the immigration service of that particular country. We are dealing with our own peculiar situation and I think that it is important that we narrow it.
    Thank you.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Before I call Hon Prempeh, Hon Minority Leader, look at clause 4 (a), please. Does clause 4 (a) not take care of your concern?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 4 (a) is on entering or leaving the country --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    And what does your amendment seek to do?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    This talks about ensuring the application and enforcement of laws relating to both exit and entry. We are talking about -- Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister is nodding in profuse agreement with what I am saying. So, I would --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    So, do you agree to abandon it?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would reinforce my position.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    The Hon Minority Leader has reinforced the position to himself.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    I would yield to the Hon Minister who wants to add on to what I am saying.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Is he supposed to add on to it?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Yes!
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Do you agree with him?
    Mr Agalga 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minority Leader is right. The functions of the Immigration Service include issues of emigration, that is, people leaving the country. The proposed amendment would have been appropriate, but once again, there are elaborate provisions in respect of emigration in the Immigration Act, 2000. If I could with your kind permission, draw the attention of the House to some of those provisions, sections 9 and 10 of the Immigration Act, 2000.
    Mr Speaker, section 9 reads as follows 12:45 p.m.
    “A person in charge of a vessel, an aircraft or a vehicle, departing from a port or place in Ghana shall not permit a passenger to embark until embarkation has been authorised by an Immigration Officer.”
    Section 10 reads:
    “A person leaving Ghana shall appear before an immigration officer at the immigration post of any of the approved places of departure”
    And then it goes on and on and explains the circumstances that may lead to the refusal of a person who seeks to leave
    Ghana. The Hon Minority Leader is right but I would want to persuade him to allow the provision to stand in view of the provisions I have referred to in the Immigration Act, 2000.
    Dr Prempeh 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the pro- vision in (b), as far as it is concerned, if you read it carefully together with one, we could modify (a) to make the enforcement of the provision and application of the laws for the first part of (b). There is a second part of (b), which says employment of non Ghanaians -- The Immigration Service is also charged to make sure that non Ghanaians who are employed are monitored.
    Mr Speaker, that is the essence of the subclause (b). Those who have come into this country and have been employed, when they are leaving, the Immigration Service is charged to make sure that they have obeyed all the relevant laws in the country and that might include taxation, not jumping bail.
    Therefore, it is more than just the Immigration Service coming in with a visa or not. If you see the second part of the (b), we have not addressed that; what should the Immigration Service do about employment of non Ghanaians, something which the other Ministries are not doing?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    I think the Immigration Service has the Immigration Quota Committee. What the Immigration Service does is that, the Immigration Quota Committee is a committee that one goes to and then they give the person the right to work or not. When you look at the GIPC Act and so on, that is how --
    Dr Prempeh 12:45 p.m.
    The subclause (b) says “ensure the application and enforcement of laws” -- the subclause (a) partly talks about immigration, that is, the function.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Every- thing! Everything!
    Dr Prempeh 12:45 p.m.
    Yes! So, if it is everything, then I agree with the Hon Minority Leader; we have to capture the “going out” as well.
    I think I am now becoming persuaded by Hon Muntaka. If we are not careful, we would be arguing every word.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Hon Yieleh Chireh?
    Mr Chireh 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, first of all, the reason for the amendment not accepted is that if you look at subclause (b), it says and I beg to quote:
    “ensure the application and enforcement of laws relating to the immigration and employment”.
    Those two words must be construed together because it is not about those who are immigrating. No! It is about those who have emigrated and they would want to work. The two words are the qualifiers in this particular case. We do not need to make it emigrate again.
    If you look at clause 3, which was considered earlier, the first thing is (a) in clause 3, which says and with your kind permission, I beg to quote:
    “ensure effective administration and management of migration in the country.”
    I proposed an amendment earlier to say “in and out of the country” which should have been the case. In this particular case,
    we are talking about those who have emigrated and who are employed. So, the issue of adding “emigration” does not come in at all.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    I think the only amendment to clause 4 (b) is the amendment proposed by the Hon Minority Leader. I will request the Hon Minority Leader to state the proper amendment and then I will put the Question.
    Alhaji Muntaka — rose --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    No! Hon Muntaka, this time, I will not -- [Interruption.]
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect, you cannot take instructions from me.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    All right. I have accepted your kind advice, so, I will not hear you because if I hear you, we would have too many people. [Laughter.]
    Hon Minority Leader, we have discussed it indepth. This is just to capture the rendition of the proposed amendment, so that I will put the Question.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thought that it was not for nothing that we are going about stating the position about the application and enforcement of laws and I thought that it should relate to both legs. The Hon Deputy Minister draws attention to clause 4 (a) where he thinks that there is sufficient provision. He also relates it to the Immigration Act and that
    being the case, if they are convinced and persuaded that there is enough coverage for the immigrants, for that matter, we should allow it to fallow, we would allow it to fallow for now.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    The difficulty we have with this Bill is that, Hon Minority Leader and I would agree with you. Perhaps, we must all have a copy of the Immigration Act by our sides. This is because when you propose something and they say, it is there and we do not have it-- We have absolute confidence in you but I am saying that we are well advised to look at this Bill in tandem with the Immigration Act 2000.
    Anyway, it has been withdrawn. So, we go to the next one.
    Thank you, Hon Minority Leader.
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Clause 4, amendment proposed at the following paragraph -- Mr Speaker, we are withdrawing it because it is in the Immigration Act. It is clearly stated. So, we do not want to --I think we have to withdraw it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Where in the Immigration Act, please? Can you just state where that is found in the Immigration Act, for the record?
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Immigration Act, if I may quote; “Authority of the immigration officer to arrest and prosecute”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Immigration Act, which year?
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Immigration Act, Act 2000 (Act 573), section 22.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    No!
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Sorry, Immigration Act
    2000.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Act?
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Act 573 (22). Mr Speaker, I beg to quote:
    “Authority of immigration officer to arrest and prosecute”.
    “An Immigration officer enforcing this Act has the authority and powers of a Police Officer relating to arrest, detention and search.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Thank you.
    We just stated it for the record because of the position of today's debates in Parliament. So, it is accordingly with- drawn.
    Mr Emmanuel K. Bandua 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have an amendment to that provision, clause 4, paragraph (e), line 1.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Clause 4?
    Mr Bandua 12:55 p.m.
    Clause 4, paragraph (e), line 1. Can I go ahead?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Clause 4, paragraph (e), line 1.
    Mr Bandua 12:55 p.m.
    It has been withdrawn, but I am making an amendment to that provision.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Yes, tell us your amendment.
    Mr Bandua 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, after “entry” insert “on arrival”. I would give the reasons.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Pardon me? [Interruption.]
    Thank you.
    Amendment advertised as (iv)?
    Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Mr Baffour 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4, paragraph (e), line 1, after “work”, insert “and residence”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Is it the one that Hon Bandua wanted to --
    The Hon Minister for Foreign Affairs?
    Ms Hannah Tetteh 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, a further amendment to that paragraph (e). Specifically, between the words “entry” and “into the country” -- the insertion of the words “on arrival”.
    The reason I am proposing that amendment --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Where are you? Sorry, clause 4?
    Ms Tetteh 12:55 p.m.
    Clause 4 (e), line 1. I am proposing an amendment between the words “entry” and “into”. In other words, “issue for visas for entry” and my insertion is on arrival “into the country”.
    Mr Speaker, the reason I am proposing this amendment is as follows 12:55 p.m.
    It is the Consular Services of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration that issues entry visas outside of this country for arrival into Ghana.
    Indeed, we have the Research Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration that
    exists as a department on its own and has representation in each of our Missions and Consulates which have the specific responsibility of vetting applicants for visas and issuing visas.
    However, the Immigration Service does exercise the right to issue visas on arrival into Ghana on specific circumstances. Those specific circumstances are well known to them.
    One of the reasons might be where,for instance, there is no Mission of Ghana in that country and therefore, it is difficult for someone to make an application for a visa at our Mission.
    Generally speaking, the structure as currently exists, is that the issuance of visas for entry into Ghana are the prerogative and responsibility of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration through the Research Department.
    Mr Speaker, so my amendment is for the sub-paragraph to read as follows 12:55 p.m.
    “issue visas for entry on arrival into the country”. There is a further amendment proposed by the Hon Chairman of the Committee, which I support.
    Maj. Derek Oduro (retd): Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to draw the Hon Minister's attention to Immigration Regulation 2001, Legislative Instrument (LI) 1691. That gives the authority to the Ghana Immigration Service to issue visas.
    So, if she is concluding that the Ghana Immigration Service issues entry visas to travellers, it is not wholly true. This is because if it is done in the other Mission areas, it is on behalf. This is because if you look on the application form, it is there. It is the responsibility of the Director of the Ghana Immigration Service to issue the visas.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Muntaka?
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:55 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I heard the Hon Foreign Minister. I just want to be sure whether what she said, the Ministry is currently doing is backed by law?
    This is because if you look at the Immigration Act 573, there is the issue of re-entry visa into our country and then the Regulation --
    Second Deputy Speaker: Yes, Hon Minority Leader?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I know the Hon HannahTetteh is the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration and not the ‘‘Foreign Minister.''
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, she is the Hon Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration. It would be very important, that we do not contradict ourselves. If what the Hon Minister or what is currently going on --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    You were going to tell us the section.
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:55 p.m.
    I was talking about Immigration Act 573, specifically section 5 and then the Regulation as mentioned by Hon Oduro.
    It is important that we get these things right. This is because it could happen that, for convenience, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration has been doing that, but if we have a Legislation
    backing what the Ministry is doing, then we need to correct this --so that we do not contradict.
    If they do not and if it is not supported by law, then we need to insist on doing what the law is asking us to do.
    Mr Speaker, this is because I know in many countries, if you talk to the Ambassadors, sometimes they would tell us directly that persons at the visa sections do not take instructions from them. This is because they do not work directly under them, they may be supervising them but they do not work -- They tell us that they are not officials from the same Ministry.
    Therefore, if Ghana chooses to put the two together at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, so be it.
    However, it has to be supported by a Legislation.This Legislation that I have seen and what the Hon Oduro has quoted as Regulation seemed to suggest that, if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration is not supported by an Act of Parliament, then unfortunately, they may be doing the wrong thing. If it is supported by an Act of Parliament, then we need to, as a matter of urgency, sort these differences. This is because we cannot ask two separate agencies to do the same thing.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    The Hon Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration.
    Hon Minority Leader, am I correct?
    Ms Tetteh 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, on that note, may I please request that this provision be stood down? I would bring the legal basis for the request.
    Ms Tetteh 12:55 p.m.


    In fact, there is a conflict between the legal provisions and that is part of the problem that we have. But I do not have it with me at the moment and I cannot immediately make reference offhand.

    I would like to request that it is stood down. I would come back with it, so that we can resolve it, and we do not continue to perpetuate this confusion.

    To the Hon Majority Chief Whip, Hon Muntaka, the issue is this. When I say the Research Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, actually, it is a department on its own. It is not officially part of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration. It is part of the national security infrastructure; indeed, it is part of the National Security Council as the Ghana Immigration Service is and as the Ministry of the Interior is.

    They are different departments of government with different functions. However, for the purposes of the external public, we say that they are the research department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration. I think that this might be an opportunity to clarify the position.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    It is al- right.
    Yes, Hon Shirley A. Botchwey?
    Ms Shirley A. Botchwey 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is to support the Hon Minister's proposal, that we stand it down for now. I wholly agree with the proposal that she put forward initially. I also would want to support what she just said. This is because, Mr Speaker, if we are saying that visas on arrival should be handled --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon Shirley Botchwey, I believe you are the Hon Ranking Member for the Committee on Foreign Affairs?
    Ms Botchwey 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am not the Ranking Member.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    All right. So, there is no conspiracy. This is because I do not like what people are saying. There are some asides that are dangerous.
    Ms Botchwey 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what she is saying is that, visas on arrival can or should go as it is already. That is what happens. It is issued by the Ghana Immigration Service, but when it comes to visas, it is the Consular Section of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration in our Missions abroad that issues visas.
    They are not directly under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, but they have their cover, and they are under the Research Department, which is really not a department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration.
    So, I agree with her, that we stand it down for now until there is clarity on who and what law backs the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration or the Research Department and what law is also going to back the Ghana Immigration Service to carry out this function.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    I will take a few comments.
    I take the liberty to stop the comments when I feel that you are disclosing matters that should not be disclosed. I even think too much of them have already been disclosed.
    I will also suggest that when we stand it down, it should be discussed at the Leadership level and at the Committee level. Thus, the Hon Ranking Member as well as the Hon Chairman of the Committee on Defence and Interior and the Ranking
    Member as well as the Hon Chairman for the Committee on Foreign Affairs should join the Committee, so that we discuss it. I do not think everything that is being discussed in relation to this should be discussed on the floor of Parliament.

    Where are you going? [Laughter] Speak into the microphone.
    Mr Agalga 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is a clear distinction between Consular Section and the Ghana Immigration Service.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister, please, resume your seat. You would have enough opportunity to discuss this matter. I do not want you to discuss it in the open.
    I will take the suggestion of the Hon Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, which is ably supported by the Hon Shirley A. Botchwey. I will plead that this matter be stood down, discussed extensively among Leadership, the committees and the Chairmen, then the Hon Chairman of the committee on Foreign Affairs and the Hon Ranking Member. I will add Hon Major Derek Oduro (retd.)
    Hon Derek Oduro, I am adding you to the Winnowing Committee on this matter as well as the Hon Botchwey, Hon Prempeh and Hon Yieleh Chireh --
    Mr Seth K. Acheampong 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a matter which we have really been discussing. I am sorry you have already directed that this is a security matter. Immigration controls are primarily security operations. We cannot talk about the
    Research Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which does security operations as well.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon Member, please.
    Mr K. Acheampong 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am not going to talk about that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Please! You are talking about it. Everybody gets up and says “I am not going to talk about that” and he talks about it. You are Members of Parliament. Why? The Hon Member is also asking, why?
    Hon Member, it is not everything that we say, I agree with you. I have added you to the Committee. All right.
    Hon Member for Mpraeso, let me hear you.
    Mr K. Acheampong 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we are not saying anything which would jeopardise the solid security of Ghana. We are just talking about simple operations and these are matters that we can confidently speak about here.
    We have been discussing security issues here. Immigration services are primarily security operations in controlling people moving in and out of Ghana. This is simple.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    All right.
    Hon Member, the Hon Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration says that the Hon Derek Oduro relied on a Regulation. I was going to say in response to Hon Derek Oduro, that since we are passing a Bill, it is a superior law to a Regulation.
    The Hon Muntaka relied on the Immigration Act and completely tied my hands and the Hon Minister says she also has a law and we should stand it down, so that she can bring the law. Is it not a reasonable request?
    Mr K. Acheampong 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think my ears were far away in Mpraeso. Forgive me.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon Member for Mpraeso, thank you very much for your graciousness.
    As I continue, I have finished forming the Winnowing Committee.
    Hon Minister, come back tomorrow and give us the answer.
    Let us take the last amendment on clause 4, then we will go to clause 8. We will not put the Question on the whole of clause 4. There is a simple one -- numbered (v).
    Alhaji Muntaka 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect, I would have preferred your earlier direction to include the whole of clause 4, so that we move on to clause 8 and proceed. Hopefully, tomorrow, when we are able to sort out this, it would help tidy up the clause 4.

    Clause 8 -- Meetings of the Council.
    Mr Baffour 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 8, subclause (1), line 1 delete “once every month” and insert “quarterly”
    Mr H. Iddrisu 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have just been admonished to appreciate that immigration issues are security related issues and that they border on matters of national security. When one says quarterly, by my understanding, this is a longer period of a duration than when it is a month. The Hon Chairman did not provide any explanation why he wants the Ghana Immigration Service Council to meet quarterly. I have a difficulty with it.
    Mr Speaker, my difficulty is that, they should be meeting once every month. This is because it is also a security entity.
    For instance, if the crisis in Europe were to happen here, are we to wait quarterly before the Immigration Council would convene? So, I have a difficulty with the substitution of “quarterly” for “once every month” and I believe that as a security-related Service, and given that migration issues are every day issues, I think that the earlier they met consistently within every other month should be preferred to the “quarterly” suggestion of the Chairman.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Dr Prempeh?
    Dr Prempeh 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, not only am I supporting the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations' contribution, but when it comes to clause
    8 (2)”:
    “The Chairperson shall at the request in writing of not less than one-third of the membership of the Council convene an extraordinary meeting …”
    Mr Speaker, the Chairperson should be able to call an extraordinary meeting if the matter demands so; not only should he wait till one-third of the members turn in.
    If there is an emergency and he knows that because of security implications, he should call his members, we should give the Chairperson the power to summon the meeting on any emergency. If we do that, then the Hon Member's suggestion could even be lightened. But to say that only one-third of the members should write before he calls, is wrong when it comes to issues related to security.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Yieleh Chireh?
    Mr Chireh 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister for Employment and Labour Relations is arguing but if you look at the way it is couched, it says, “at least quarterly”, which means that emergency meetings could be held when there are crises. But if you also look at what meetings are supposed to be doing, what would they be discussing every month? Apart from that, there is cost involved in calling these meetings. So, that is why they “at least” must be recognised and most of the boards or councils have quarterly meetings.
    If they have monthly meetings, then the cost of having those meetings would also reduce. Then what are they going to be discussing every month on the agenda? But once it is “at least”, it means that once there is a need, before a quarter, they would have to hold a meeting if the need be. So, he should read it properly and not talk about any other amendment. It should be the way it is “quarterly”.
    Mr Speaker, I support the amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Muntaka?
    Alhaji Muntaka 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what Hon Yieleh Chireh explained is perfect. When we say “at least”, it means that within that quarter, they could meet 10 or 20 times. But it is saying that because of the concerns of Hon Iddrisu, we do not want three whole months to pass without their Council meeting. That is why we are saying that at least, within three months, they should meet. But what it means is that, that is the least and they could meet 10 or 20 times.
    Mr Speaker, I believe the proposed amendment is right. It does not take anything away; it does not prevent them from meeting monthly; it does not prevent
    them from meeting even weekly. All it says is that, at least, in every three months, they should make sure they meet once.
    Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Atta Akyea?
    Mr Samuel Atta Akyea 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am a bit concerned that it is not human beings who would decide to meet but because of legal prescriptions. How could they make an arrangement of that nature? Therefore, if we say the law says they should meet at least, quarterly but there is no business for the meeting, then it is like the law is pushing them to do that, which is not proper. Human beings are those who are functional. If there is necessity to meet, make sure they do. We have to do the proper requisition for the meeting and then they meet.
    So Mr Speaker, I am of the humble view that we should not have any arrangement in which the law imposes upon them to meet quarterly, “at least a minimum of three months”. What for?
    The law does not say why they should meet in a minimum of three months. I do not think that would be a proper way to put a law. That would be very obnoxious. There is no business for the moment and no reason to meet and then there is an imposition by legal means to meet. That is a very mechanical way of putting the law and I do not think that that is what we should go with.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister?
    Mr Agalga 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, from a very practical point of view, given the very nature of the functions of the Immigration Service --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    As provided by clause 6.
    Mr Agalga 1:15 p.m.
    That is so, Mr Speaker.
    It is not out of place at all to say that there should be quarterly meetings of the Council. They would definitely be issues for consideration quarterly, at least, from a practical stand point.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minority Leader?
    Mr Dominic B.A. Nitiwul 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the amendment of the clause is in order. This is because most of the Acts, if not all that we have passed here, follow a similar trend where the board or council, whichever case it maybe, normally would meet quarterly.
    Mr Speaker, I really did not understand why they thought that the Immigration Council should be meeting every month. But if the amendment is being brought, it is really in order. It is a standard thing that we do as part of the Acts we normally pass here, to say that at least, every three months, let them meet. So, that in a year, it would be four times. It is a standard thing that we do here. So, I do not know why we are --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    I am persuaded by that argument.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 8, subclause (3), line 1, delete “six” and insert “seven” and in lines 2 and 3, delete the following:
    “or a greater number determined by the Council in respect of an important matter.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, you have combined two amendments in one. So, I will take the first one -- “delete “six” and insert “seven” in line 2"
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    “The quorum at a meeting of the Council is six members of the Council…”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    But you want to make it seven?
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Why?
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    So, there is an odd number.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    But there is nothing -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we decided on this because in an event of an impasse, we needed an odd number.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    How big is your board? What is the total number?
    So, seven is the quorum? So, if eight attend?
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is al- r ight but we are talking about the minimum.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    So, if eight attend, it is alright?
    Mr Baffour 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is alright.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    So, how does that resolve your problem of an impasse? You said that you chose seven because you want an odd number to form the minimum and I asked you why you chose seven and you said that six was an
    even number. So, if it is seven, at least, there would not be a tie. If there is a tie, it is seven. I am saying that if the minimum is seven, then eight may attend -- or ten. What do you do when eight attend or ten attend? This is because then you have an even number and if they vote, it is four- four or five-five.
    Yes, Hon Nitiwul?
    Mr Nitiwul 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the members are 13, according to him. So, ordinarily, a quorum should be at least, five. That should have been the quorum because one-third is around four or at least, five, which would have been the next odd number. But I guess that instead of using five, which is far below half of the 13, they want to go to the next odd number, and it gives them seven, which makes it at least, more than half, so that they would have authority to be able to meet.
    I suppose that is what they want to do. Otherwise, if it is just about odd numbers, then if they are eight (8) and they want to take a decision, they are an even number. So, it defeats what the Hon Chairman is saying. Maybe, he wants to get --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    And in any event -- not to cut you short -- the law itself provides for when they are even.
    It says that when they are even and there is a tie, the chairperson has the casting vote. The person presiding -- clause 8 (5). This takes care of the even number situation. So, the answer the Chairman gave cannot be because they want an odd number or because there may be a tie. If there is a tie, clause 8 (5) takes care of it.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Baffour 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
    Mr Speaker, we said 1:25 p.m.
    “The quorum at the meeting of the Council is six members of the Council…”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    It is now seven.
    Mr Baffour 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is seven members of the Council and we left it at that. This is because that is superfluous. [Pause.]
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 8 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Opare-Ansah, which clause are we looking at?
    Mr Frederick Opare-Ansah 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 8.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    All right. I can see that you are monitoring proceedings.
    Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Members, we have reached clause 11- [An Hon Member: Quorum!] -- Is clause 11 called quorum? We have not reached quorum yet.
    Clause 11 -- Secretary to the Council.
    Mr Agalga 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the “The” should not be deleted except that the “T” should now be a “t” -- [Interruption] -- Yes, so that the provision will read as follows -- [Interruption] -- No, Mr Speaker. The proposed amendment is that, “The” should be deleted. I am of the view that “The” should not be deleted, except that the “T” should now be a “t”, so that it will read as follows:
    “Where the Secretary is appointed from within the Service, the Secretary shall not be below the rank of an Assistant Commissioner.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Do you agree to this amendment?
    Mr Baffour 1:25 p.m.
    Yes, we do.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, when you and the Hon Deputy Minister are singing from the same page or hymn book, perhaps, you should say it. This is because it is your amendment. So, if it is a friendly amendment to your own amendment, then it looks neater rather than the Hon Deputy Minister suggesting as if he is opposed to you.
    Mr Baffour 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as you said, with your kind permission, I beg to read:
    “Where the Secretary is appointed from within the Service, the Secretary shall not be below the rank of an Assistant Commissioner.”
    Mr Nitiwul 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it makes meaning, especially if you read it as he puts it; that should be it. Only that, I was advising him on the blind side that he should do a further amendment to what you have done. Not to say that he should
    maintain the “The” or make it a “t”. No! He cannot do that. He is making a further amendment to the Chairman's amendment, that instead of leaving it at “…appointed within the Service, Secretary”, we should add “the”. So, he should make a further amendment by adding “the” to the Chairman's amendment. Then it will make correct reading.
    Mr Agalga 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I take a cue from the Hon Deputy Minority Leader's submission. So, we would propose that there be another amendment, so that “The” starts with a “t”. [Interruption] -- I have.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    The Hon Deputy Minister proposed an amendment and he has proposed a further amendment to his amendment.
    All right -- Hon Yieleh Chireh?
    Mr Chireh 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I really do not see the purpose of this amendment. This is because, first of all, we are asking the President to appoint a secretary.
    A secretary by the understanding I have, is that, he or she is somebody with a legal background or somebody who should be of legal background to serve the Council. Therefore, if we are to appoint such a person, he or she must be a member of the Service and that is the understanding. If they are appointing him or her from outside, obviously, he or she must be trained as an Immigration Officer. So, I do not see why they say that it must be within the Service.
    In fact, early on, my argument with them was that, they should normally designate this position. They should designate an officer with the relevant qualification to be the Secretary. But some people insist that, no, they have to get -- My Hon Friend sitting here said that, no, they must appoint a lawyer to be a Secretary to these statutory bodies.
    My point is that, whether that person is appointed from outside or within, must be a member of the Service, otherwise, he or she cannot be a Secretary to the Service.
    Mr Baffour 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the President has every right to appoint a Secretary, but where the Secretary is from within the Service, he or she should not be below a certain rank for that purpose. That is what we are trying to say.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Members, I have not come across the situation -- I stand corrected -- where the Chairman appoints the Secretary to the Council from outside the Service. Is that the case; is there any law? Do we have any precedent? In the Police Service, the Secretary is not a policeman and the Armed Forces Council, the Secretary -- has it even happened? Any of the Public Services listed under article 190 of the Constitution, has there ever been a situation? I am asking a question. Has there ever been a situation where the Secretary is not a member of that Service?
    Yes?
    Mr Nitiwul 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what the framers of the law or the law is seeking to achieve is that, it does not matter -- they are not looking at somebody from outside. They are not even questioning whether an outsider can be appointed. What they are saying is that, as long as the person is from the Service, he or she must have a certain rank.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    But once you say that -- Hon Nitiwul, then by necessary implication, it means that you can employ somebody from outside.
    If you say that when you are employing from within, he or she must have a certain rank, by necessary implication, you are saying that they can employ from outside.
    Mr Nitiwul 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I understand that, but if you would want to bring that argument, that is another leg. You are arguing that, well, the person has the right to appoint from outside but the context of this one --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    I am asking you that, do you think or is there any precedence where any of the Public Services under article 190 -- If we look at similar ones, the Ghana Police Service, the Ghana Prisons Service, the Ghana National Fire Service, does the President appoint -- Directors, members of the Council are appointed from outside. What about the Secretary?
    Mr A. Ibrahim 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, frankly speaking, I would not have had any problem with the old rendition as it is in the Bill. But I think the draftspersons took a cue from the fact that the current Director of the Immigration Service was from the Police Service.
    So, there may be an instance where an appointment may come from outside the Service. I think that is the main reason they are bringing this specific clause. Other than that, I would have opted that we leave it as it is, so that subsequent appointments may be from within.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    I can see that my good Friend, the Hon Deputy Minister for the Interior has an authority in his hand. Can you be of assistance to us?
    Mr Agalga 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the case of the Ghana Police Service, the Secretary clearly is not from within the Service. The law says “a public officer shall be appointed as Secretary to the Police Council”. So, there is a precedence which clearly suggests that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    But the police officer is a public officer?
    Mr Agalga 1:35 p.m.
    But it is not explicit.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    It is not a police officer. It can be any public officer.
    Mr Agalga 1:35 p.m.
    It can be any public officer.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    I do not think that I can challenge the lawmakers. You know your policy direction. But for purpose of corporate governance, it is very interesting that we decide to appoint Secretaries to your governing boards from outside governing boards. It is interesting but anyway, what can I do?
    Dr Prempeh 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would try to caution the Hon Chairman to abandon the proposal and let us stick to what is there. Mr Speaker, the reason I am saying that is, the Immigration Service in particular and another example is the Ghana Revenue Authority -- what we find is that all Presidents always bring people from outside the mainstream of the Immigration Service.
    Actually, the current Director of the Ghana Immigration Service is from the Ghana Police Service. So Mr Speaker, to also come to the Secretary who is doing the day-to-day running and putting things together from outside, it is a bit difficult. That is why we should look at the framers of the Bill and support them.
    They do not want the person to be a member of the Board because his level is that low -- Assistant Commissioner. But we should try and make sure that it is from within the Service. I think that we should go back and revisit what was in the original Bill and stay with it, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Agalga 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the mischief Hon Dr Prempeh cited to support his argument which is that, the head of the Ghana Immigration Service is appointed
    not from within the Service, has been cured by this Bill if the Bill sees the light of day. It has been cured. So, if this Bill is passed, henceforth, the Controller- General shall be from within the Service.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Hon Dr Prempeh, when he said mischief, it is a word used in the Constitution. The Constitution says that the memorandum to the Bill must state the mischief that the new law is seeking to cure.
    Mr Nitiwul 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if that is the case, I will withdraw my support for the amendment and go back to the original rendition which sought to establish that the person should necessarily be from the Service. This is because, if you say that “the person shall not be below the rank of an Assistant Commissioner”, what you are actually saying is that, the person should be from the Service.
    The reason is that, you cannot bring a fresh person, train him and give him a higher rank than this and make him the Secretary. They practised the original one where they were bringing people from outside -- So, if they are now changing that particular practice, then it means that they are curing the defect they saw in bringing people from outside. So, I will withdraw my support for the amendment.
    Mr A. Ibrahim 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I will just support my Hon Colleagues and plead with my Hon Chairman to withdraw the amendment. Why do you cure a mischief and create a new one?
    Dr Prempeh 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Deputy Minister, acting for the Hon Minister says that this Bill is trying to cure that mischief, so that it does not happen.
    Mr Speaker, when you look at the Controller 1:35 p.m.
    None

    I am not saying you have not done amendment but I am saying as the Bill stands:

    (1) “The President shall in accordance with article 195 of the Constitution appoint the Comptroller-General who is the head of the Service.

    (2) The Comptroller-General shall hold office on the terms and conditions specified in the letter of appointment.”

    How does it prevent the mischief that you think I was trying to cure but could not cure? The Bill does not do that, Mr Speaker. That is why it would have to still revisit that issue that your inclination is right. I think they are right if the Hon Deputy Minister will care to go through the Bill very carefully.

    You cannot restrain the President from appointing a competent person once he is in the security services as the head of the Immigration Service. It is not done anywhere. Mr Speaker, so, we should not try to use this Bill to do things that are not right.

    The Secretary to the Council should be from the Immigration Service. They have a lot of lawyers there; a lot of trained Secretaries and very competent people. We should let what is in the Bill stay. We should not remove it and then when we get to clause 14, we try to amend and restrain the hand of the President, which I think is not right.
    Mr Bernard Ahiafor 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at clause 11, it provides:
    “The President shall in accordance with article 195 of the Constitution appoint a Secretary to the Council”.
    The Secretary may be within or from outside. The amendment the Hon Chairman was seeking to do states that where the Secretary is from within, then he must be of a certain rank.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Look at clause 11 (2). Read the Bill.
    Mr Ahiafor 1:35 p.m.
    “The Secretary shall not be below the rank of an Assistant Commissioner”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    So, what does that mean? It means within.
    Mr Ahiafor 1:35 p.m.
    Very well, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    You cannot interpret that to mean outside.
    Hon Deputy Minister, I would want you to state your view on that. From clause 11 (2), can the Secretary come from outside the Service?
    Mr Agalga 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in the light of the debate, we are of the view now that the Secretary should come from within.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Thank you. So what will happen to the amendment then?
    Mr Baffour 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we withdraw that because we have discussed it at length. For the purposes of this particular Bill and for the morale of the Service, we withdraw that.
    Amendment withdrawn by leave of the House.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, it is a pleasure doing business with you. We are so gracious.
    Clause 11 again.
    Chairman of Committee?
    Mr Baffour 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 11, subclause (3), paragraph (b), line 1, after “Council”, delete “or Comptroller-General”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    I think the Secretary is the Secretary to the Council and not to the Comptroller-General. So, it is clear. I agree with you.
    Dr Prempeh 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Comptroller-General, I do not know -- The Memorandum to the Bill defines the head of the Service as the Comptroller-General. And if the head of the Service cannot perform this function, I do not know how the Chairman of the Council alone can do that service. It says:
    ‘Perform any other function that the Council or Comptroller-General may direct”.
    It is correct and I do not know why they want to delete the “Comptroller- General.” The head of the Immigration Service cannot give duties to the Secretary to the Council? When the Council decides, it is the head of the Service that goes to implement and if the implementation of the Council's decision demands such that the Secretary should do something, he or she cannot ask the Secretary to do that?
    Please, look at it again and look at corporate governance. To remove the “Comptroller-General” is bad.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister?
    Mr Agalga 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Secretary is Secretary to the Council and not Secretary to the Comptroller-General. And so, we are saying that the Comptroller- General himself is even a member of the Council and so, if directives have to be given, they should come from the Council, directed at the Secretary, not the Comptroller-General acting as the Comptroller-General.
    The Secretary is clearly answerable to the Council but if we add ‘‘or the Comptroller-General'' --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    But Hon Deputy Minister, in practical terms, if you keep the rendition the way you are suggesting, when you meet a very difficult Secretary, then you have created the recipe for conflict. I will say, I do not take instructions from you, I take instructions from the Council.
    When we are making laws, we should pray for the best and we prepare for the worst, the worst case scenario.
    Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah, should we add the Secretary? Is it necessary? They are saying:
    “The Secretary shall perform any other function that the Council or the Comptroller-General may direct.”
    They want to remove ‘‘Comptroller- General'' so that it is only the Council that can direct.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:45 p.m.
    Yes, of course, I agree with them. Please, we have the Governing Council and it directs the Secretary. It cannot be that the Comptroller-General can direct the Secretary what he or she should do.
    Of course, I do not know the intention behind this rendition. Probably, they were thinking of the Secretary being a member of the Immigration Service. But then, we can clarify that. This is because the Board Secretary is not subject to the direction and control of the Comptroller-General; he is the Board Secretary.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah, he is a member of the Service.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:45 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    I am saying that, he has functions as Secretary to the Council and he also has functions as Immigration Officer. They are different.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    So, the Comptroller-General can direct him in terms of the functions as to be --
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:45 p.m.
    As a Service personnel, yes but not as Secretary.
    So, I do not know the intention behind that drafting. Probably, what they wanted to say is that “A Secretary who is a member of the Service can be given directives what he or she has to do as a member of the Service, by the Controller- General”. But if that is the intention, then this rendition is not correct.
    I do not know, Mr Speaker; it says -- I see there is another amendment in clause 11, where the Secretary is appointed from the Service. I do not know whether it has been taken --[Interruption.]-- Yes, that is corporate governance; the Secretary must come from within the Service. It helps the works of the Governing Council.
    Mr A. Ibrahim 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we should be mindful that we are dealing with a security Service, where a Secretary is appointed per this Bill within the Service. We have been given the functions the Secretary should play. We are now saying that the Secretary may play any other function given by the head of the Service who is the Controller-General.
    Now, Mr Speaker, if we say that because the Secretary is not accountable as an individual to the Comptroller- General, then the Comptroller-General cannot give another function to this Secretary. We may be creating security
    impediments and in that regard, Mr Speaker, I think we must allow the rendition as it is to stand.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah?
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at clause 15 (2), it says and, I beg to read:
    “The Comptroller-General may delegate a function to an officer of the Service but shall not be relieved from the ultimate responsibility for the performance of the delegated function.”
    He is the head of the Service. So, he can give directives to any member of the Service. But he cannot give directives to the Secretary of the Council in respect of the work of the Council. No! He cannot do that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    So, Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah, you are saying that when the Secretary is a member of the Service, he or she wears two hats? The first one is the hat of the Secretary to the Council. In respect of the first hat, he or she is answerable only to the Council.
    Then the Secretary wears another hat as a member of the Immigration Service. Under that hat, he or she is under the direction of the Controller-General.
    Hon Members, will it help if say:
    “. . . perform any other secretarial function the Council may direct”.
    Subclause (b)? Will it help? I do not know.
    Yes, Hon Gifty Kusi?
    Mrs Gifty Eugenia Kusi 1:45 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Yieleh Chireh?
    Mr Chireh 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have always been of the view that, these institutions are public statutory bodies, unlike commercial or semi-commercial ones. For example, Bank of Ghana, Ghana Commercial Bank et cetera.
    These are security agencies. Therefore, the issue of security and command is important. That is why early on, I suggested that they should let the Council designate an officer of the agency. But to have the President appoint somebody -- This is because if the President is allowed to appoint the person, that person will wave the letter and say that they were appointed by the President just like you were appointed by the President and that brings about conflict.
    Now, what is it that the particular Secretary is to do that should be above the Comptroller-General? It does not make sense.

    What I am saying is that, this is not a commercial wing; this is not an independent institution that needs to have a Secretary.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Thank you, Hon Yieleh Chireh.
    Hon Members, I think I will put the Question. I have been advised that it is seven minutes more to 2.00 o'clock and there is no provision for an extended Sitting. So, after I have put the Question, I will ask for direction from Leadership.
    Hon Prempeh, your pleading has fallen on deaf ears.
    Dr Prempeh 1:55 p.m.
    The deaf has just heard.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    The deaf has just heard? Hon Prempeh, your miracle did not work. I still cannot hear you.
    Hon Members, we will not finish the debate today. So, many views have been expressed on this. I will defer the Question and that is the first thing we will deal with tomorrow. Tomorrow, I am not going to allow more than two contributions -- one from the Majority side and one from the Minority and I will put the Question. So, I will defer the Question --
    Mr Osei-Owusu 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was wondering which Standing Order you are relying on.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    You know, I do not want to say it because if I do, I may sound pompous. So, I would let Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah say it for me.
    Hon Member, he said what Order am I coming under?
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Standing Orders are within your bosom and where, in respect of any matter, no specific provisions have been made by the Standing Order, you will give directives and it is not for any Hon Member to question you. He cannot question the Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah, could I refer Hon Osei-Owusu to the Committee on Privileges?
    Hon Member, I have forgiven you. [Laughter] -- The Bible says that we should forgive seventy-seven times multiplied by seven times. This is his first time, so, I have forgiven him -- but I am counting.
    Yes, Hon Ahmed?
    Mr A. Ibrahim 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, looking at the collective wisdom of the House, Hon Members are poised for work and I would be grateful if we continue.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Sorry. This brings us to the end of the Consideration Stage of the Immigration Service Bill, 2015 for today.
    Yes, Hon Ahmed?
    Mr Ahmed Ibrahim 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is almost 2.00 o'clock and Hon Members are exhausted. So, I hereby beg to move, that the House do adjourn.
    Mrs Irene Naa Torshie Addo 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion negatived.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Ahmed, I will put the Question again.
    Mr I. Ahmed 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think we have to continue. You are r ight. [Laughter] --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    I am not too sure, about that, so I will put the Question for the last time.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    ADJOURNMENT 1:55 p.m.
  • The House was accordingly adjourned at 2:00 p.m. till Thursday, 5th November, 2015 at 10.00 a.m.