Debates of 2 Aug 2010

MR FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:35 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:35 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:35 a.m.
Hon Members, Correction of Votes and Proceedings of Friday, 30th July, 2010.
Page 1 . . . 26 -
Mr W. O. Boafo 10:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, page 26 (cxxviii), clause 75, regarding the interpretation of gift. If my memory serves me right, I think this was also --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:35 a.m.
It was deferred. Table Office, take note.

Hon Members , the Votes and proceedings of Friday, 30th July, 2010 as corrected be adopted as the true record of proceedings.

At the Commencement of Public Business - Laying of Papers.
PAPERS 10:45 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Hon Members, what is the problem? Hon Member for Old Tafo?
Dr A. A. Osei 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I was just bringing this to the Majority Leader's attention that since they are not really ready, we can defer them and then when they bring the corrections, we can lay them properly so that Hon Members will have copies. I have had a discussion with him; he agrees that there are some things that need to be done. They are working on them but if he lays them now, Hon Members will not be able to get copies yet -- true copies so that -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Hon Member, if the reason you are giving is because they have to get the copies, we lay Papers before we make copies available.
Dr A. A. Osei 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, but -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
It is a different thing to say that the Report is not ready.
Dr A. A. Osei 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is the point.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
So, if you say the Report is not ready, then it is not ready to be laid.
Dr A. A. Osei 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is my point.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Because when it is laid then they must be available to be distributed to Hon Members.
Dr A. A. Osei 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is the point. That is the discussion we had that I have just received copies and I have just brought the Chairman's attention to the fact that there are issues that need to be changed. So as far as he is concerned and I am concerned, they are not really ready to be laid. So, he should defer them now and let us go to other Public Business; when they finish, then they can bring them back.
Mr James K. Avedzi 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, you rightly said that laying the Report -- the laying is before the distribution. In fact, the Reports are ready; I have gone through them. This morning, I made copies available to the Ranking Member and we are even going through to make sure that the few corrections are done. So, after the laying, we will do those corrections - [Uproar.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Hon Chairman, we are rising tomorrow and it is important that these Reports are laid in good time and for Hon Members to get copies and then the Motions are taken. I have noticed that we are supposed to take this Motion today.
Hon Chairman and the Ranking Member, whatever little things that there are to be done -- whatever little things -- [Interruptions] Hon Members, I am not going to allow this House to degenerate into something this morning and I want to make that point very clear. You are not -
The point is that, when I use those words, I am using the words used by the Chairman of the Committee and I think that it will be better for those who want to cause confusion to listen to me till I end whatever I want to say.
Hon Chairman of the Committee, whatever little things that you claim remain to be done, go out with your Ranking Member and sort them out and come back and have the Papers laid. I want those Papers to be laid as soon as possible. We are rising tomorrow and I want those Papers to be laid as soon as possible.
Hon Ranking Member, I think that the two of you can sort out that thing so that we have these Papers laid as soon as possible and make copies available to Hon Members so that business on the floor of the House would be very, very smooth.
Chairman of the Committee, is it the case for the rest of the items to be laid?
Mr Avedzi 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is the same for all the items. In fact, as I said early on, the Reports from my side are ready. I only gave them to the Ranking Member to look at and bring his concerns; that is it. The Reports are ready with me -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Hon Members, the laying is deferred. Chairman of the Committee, I advise that you go out and then get those Reports ready for them to be laid.
Hon Members, let us move to ttem 6 on the Order Paper.
Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I share your sentiments that because we will be adjourning tomorrow, we should endeavour to complete the
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:45 a.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I do not think that the position I have taken is different from yours. The Chairmen lead their respective sides -- the Ranking Member, the Chairman. If they know that as a committee, they have not seen a report, when I refer it to the Chairmen and Ranking Members as leaders of the committee, they will know what to do and that is the reason I have mentioned
the Chairman and the Ranking Member.
If the Committee knows that they have not as a committee determined the matter, definitely they will go with their Ranking Members and their Chairmen to look at it. But because they are the leaders, that is why I make reference to them as the leaders of the Committee.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, at committee levels, we have often strived to work to achieve consensus, and indeed, even unanimity. And the surprise is the Chairman saying that “my side has looked at it and we have agreed”; I thought that was quite unfortunate - [Interruption] - I thought that was unfortunate. He said “my side has looked at it and it is ready”.
Mr Speaker, that is exactly what the Chairman said and it should not be that way. Let them go, step outside, look at it and then after they have reconciled their positions, whatever - to use those very words - “little things” that are outstanding, let them go and clear them - [Interruptions] - Let them go and clear that -- I am not anticipating what it is there - whether it is little or substantive. Let them go and handle them and bring them to the House and we will consider same.
Mr Speaker, thank you.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Let me hear from the - Hon Majority Leader -- Let me take the Chairman, then you will come in
- 10:55 a.m.
Mr Avedzi 10:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I just want to say that I did not say that my side had looked at the Report. At the committee level, the decision was by unanimity and usually when we write a report, I look at it with the Ranking Member, that is why

I said “this morning” -- because we had the meeting on Friday. And this morning, I had to make copies of the Report for the Hon Ranking Member to look at.

So it captures everything, that is why I said that after the laying, we will then bring the Report and distribute it after we have agreed on everything. Usually, that is what we do. So I did not say my side looked at it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Members, I think the point has been made, so Hon Majority Leader?
Mr Cletus A. Avoka 10:55 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr. Speaker - [Interruption] - What is your problem?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Majority Leader, you have the floor. -
Mr Avoka 10:55 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, let me plead with Hon Members of this august House that as we all appreciate, we have a tall order and we are rising tomorrow. So you have given a ruling and we have agreed that given the circumstances of the case either the Chairman or the Ranking Member or the Finance Committee members should go out and look at the Report that they have drafted and bring it back and we lay it.
I think that should end the matter. But to continue discussing and the rest of them, does not end the matter. If they agreed by consensus, then they should go out and look at the draft Report and if there is no problem, they should come back and then we lay it -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Majority Leader, I agree with you entirely. I have deferred the laying of the Paper so there is nothing to talk about again. Therefore, I have moved to item number 6.
If the Chairman of the Subsidiary Legislation Committee is here or any
member of the Committee is here to move the Report, let us go ahead. We have a lot on the Order Paper today.
Chairman of the Subsidiary Legislation Committee, item 6 on the Order Paper.
MOTIONS 10:55 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee (Mr Kwame Osei-Prempeh) 10:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Subsidiary Legislation on the Fisheries Regulations,
2010 (L. I. 1968).
1.0 Introduction
The Fisheries Regulations, 2010 (L.I. 1968) was laid before the House on Monday, 5th July, 2010. The Instrument was subsequently referred to the Committee on Subsidiary Legislation for consideration and report pursuant to article 11(7) of the Constitution and Orders 77 (a) and 166 of the Standing Orders of the House.
2.0 Deliberations
The Committee met with the Chairman and officials of the Fisheries Commission to discuss the Instrument. In attendance were officials from both the Ministry of Food and Agriculture and the Drafting Division of the Ministry of Justice and Attorney-General's Department. 3.0 Reference Documents
The Committee referred to the following documents during its deliberations:
i. The Constitution;
i i . The Standing Orders of Parliament; and
iii. The Fisheries Act, 2002 (Act

625).

4.0 Background Information

The Fisheries Act, 2002 (Act 625) came into effect in 2002 to provide for the regulations and management of fisheries, for the development of the fishing industry and the sustainable exploitation of fishery resources in the country.

Following the passage of the Act, the Ministry was required by section 139 of the Act to come up with Regulations to give effect to the provisions of the Act to provide for specifics on procedures, requirement, sanctions, et cetera for the sustainable management of the industry.

The absence of the Regulations for the past eight years has therefore made it difficult for the Ministry to control the activities of operators in the industry.

The lack of clear provisions on sanctions for a variety of activities, has made it difficult to apprehend and prosecute successfully, offenders who fall foul of the law.

It is in the light of the above difficulties encountered by the Ministry and the Commission that the Instrument was introduced into Parliament.

5.0 Object of the Instrument

The Instrument among others seeks to provide for:

i . p r o c e d u r e s f o r t h e acquisition, registration and licensing of fishing vessels;

i i . r enewal o f l i cences for industr ia l vessels , semi- industrial vessels and canoes;

iii. interpretation of technical expressions for the understanding

of operators; and

iv. specific sanctions to ensure compliance.

6.0 Observations

The Committee made the following observations:

6.1 The Committee observed that the coming into force of the Instrument will ensure sustainable utilisation of the country's fish resources as both legal and illegal methods of fishing for marine and inland sectors are well defined. The prohibition of the use of obnoxious chemicals and other injurious fishing methods will stop the depletion of the country's fishery resources for the realisation of present and future benefits.

6.2 The Committee also observed that

the introduction of a monitoring system in fisheries management by the Instrument will enhance the aspects of monitoring, control and surveillance which would enable regulators curb the incidence of illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing. This would also provide reliable and verifiable catch data for internal planning as well as meeting international requirements.

6.3 The Committee further observed that the establishment of clear parameters by the Instrument will facilitate the management of the country's fishery resources. The rights and responsibilities of operators to contribute to the successful management of the fishery for the socio- economic development of the country are well defined in the Instrument.

6.4 The Committee noted that

Aquaculture and Aquaculture-related activities are being promoted along modern scientific lines and therefore, the need to regulate their practices. In this regard, the Instrument has provided

for well documented procedures such as application and approval for aquaculture and aquaculture-related establishments, fish feed production, aquaculture research, aquaculture record keeping, et cetera. Provision has also been made for procedures for the importation and exportation of live fish.

6.5 The Committee finally observed that the Instrument intends to establish a reward system to reward people who supply information on illegal foreign vessels fishing in Ghana's waters. Operators of Ghanaian registered vessels who report on activities of unlicensed foreign vessel fishing in the Exclusive Economic Zone of Ghana would be rewarded, especially where the report results in the arrest and successful prosecution of a person or persons involved in the illegal fishing. The award for the informant would be determined by the Commission.

7.0 Recommendations and Conclusion

The Committee is satisfied that the Instrument is in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution and the Fisheries Act, 2002 (Act 625).

The Committee, therefore, recommends to the House to adopt its Report and allow the Fisheries Regulations, 2010 (L.I. 1968) to come into force in accordance with article 11(7) of the Constitution.

Respectfully submitted.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
I admire your brevity. Who is seconding the Motion?
Mr Emmanuel K. Bandua (NDC - Biakoye) 10:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion and in doing so, make a few observations.
In the Report, since the Act was passed about some eight years ago, this L. I. has been outstanding and it has been difficult for the Commission to operate effectively and efficiently. But with the passage of this Report, I believe that the Act would be operationalised and that everything would go on smoothly and properly.
I can only urge those who would be in-charge of enforcing the law that they do their work diligently. And I also appeal to the operators of the law to ensure that they comply with the provisions of the law.
With these few words, Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion and urge all Hon Members to support it.
Question put and motion agreed to.
Resolved accordingly.
Mr Avoka 10:55 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, we will come back to item 5.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Where is the Hon Minister for Education? I saw him a few minutes ago.
Mr Avoka 10:55 a.m.
He should be around; I think he might be in the lobby. [Pause.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Majority Leader, which item are we taking?
Mr Avoka 10:55 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we are still sorting things out with regard to item number 6; so we can take item number 7 - the Education (Amendment) Bill, 2010 - At the Consideration Stage -- so that we will see how we can discuss the amendments. [Pause.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Majority Leader, are we taking item 7?
Mr Avoka 10:55 a.m.
That is so, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:55 a.m.
Hon Members, item 7 - Education (Amendment) Bill, 2010 -- At the Consideration Stage. [Pause.]
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 11:05 a.m.
STAGE 11:05 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:05 a.m.
Hon
Members, the Education (Amendment) Bill is a one-clause Bill.
The clause -- section 1 of Act 778 amended.
Chairman of the Committee (Mr
Mathias A. Puozaa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move, the clause, lines 1 and 2, delete “not less than”.
So the rendition will be:
“The second cycle level of education shall consist of three years of senior high school education, technical, vocational, business and agricultural education or appropriate apprenticeship training of not less than one year.”
Mr Speaker, the Committee was compelled to suggest this amendment to make it consistent with what pertains in the Memorandum of the Bill and if you permit me, I will read out the relevant portions--
“The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Education Act, 2008 (Act 778) to review the duration of second cycle education and reduce the length of second cycle

education from four years to three years in accordance with current government policy.”

If you get to the last line, this same

position is reiterated by the last sentence of the Memorandum:

“The amendment will provide legal backing for the implementation of the three-year programme.”

Mr Speaker, the Committee found that this was not consistent with what is stated here and therefore, moves that this will be amended.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:05 a.m.
Very well.
Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 11:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is interesting that the Hon Chairman of the Committee reads a memorandum to amend the Bill submitted by the Government or the Executive.
Going through the memorandum -- Mr Speaker, with your permission, I beg to read the last but one paragraph:
“The Bill amends section 1(3) of Act 778 which provides that the second cycle level of education is to consist of not less than three years of senior high school.”
Then, we go into the original amendment and it says,
“The second cycle level of education shall consist of not less than three years.”
Mr Speaker, it is not for nothing that the authors of this Bill insisted on that. If you go into a discussion with the Hon Minister for Education or the Ministry of Education, you will realise that they intend that education should be three years but still be given the flexibility for resources and targeting of schools that are failing.
Mr Speaker, it is instructive that when
you look at the 2006, 2007, 2008 reports of the West African School Certificate Examination, only 20 per cent --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:05 a.m.
Hon Member, are you support ing the amendment? This is not the Second Reading of the Bill; we have done that already. Are you supporting the amendment or opposing it? If you are opposing it, say you are opposing it, so that I will be very clear in my mind as to what
This is because I have also recognised that there is another amendment standing in your name there.
Dr Prempeh 11:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am opposing what the Hon Chairman of Education has moved and I am opposing him with [Interruption]-- Yes, my intention is very, very clear.
Mr Speaker, we are in a country where we believe that if we want to move into the next level of development, the foundation is education, education, education. I thought that the proponents of this Bill will really address the fact of, “Why is there so much under-achievement of education in the country?” Why is it that 80 per cent of schools in this country fail to achieve the minimum entry qualification for the tertiary institutions?
Mr Speaker, it looks as if even apart from the Accra Academies, the Prempeh Colleges, the Wesley Girls', Aburi Girls', and the Acherensuas, 80 per cent -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:05 a.m.
Hon Member, you are doing Second Reading. You are hiding behind - to do Second Reading. The amendment has been moved so -
Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang 11:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with the utmost of respect and humility, I believe it is proper that when one is opposing a Motion, one gives the reason for opposing the Motion and so therefore, it cannot be that “I support,” or “I oppose.”
Mr Speaker, I oppose the amendment because the framers of the Bill itself say, “not less than”, but when we move out the “not less than” becomes “shall be three years”.
I have a document here in my hand where in 1989 that Dr Spio-Garbrah overwhelmingly proposed the senior secondary school should be four years, where the present Hon Minister for Education also proposed it and if you look at the Parliamentary Hansard of 14th November -- and it goes on and on.
Therefore, it is better that we leave the original Bill as it is, framed by the distinguished Hon Minister, rather than for the Hon Chairman of the Committee to remove the words, “not less than”. The flexibility must be there; we must advance arguments.
When I went to St Augustine's College; it was a four-year course, then they decided that it would be five years, so we could all be educated. So there was a hiatus between us in Form One and there was Form Three; there was no Form Two. It is not for nothing that we are arguing and advocating for subsequent amendments which give the flexibility within the system. Education provided by the State, by the churches, by individuals should not be so regimented and cocooned into a system whereby one is obliged to do it in three years.
Indeed, this document prepared says that they use the first term in sizing up each
Mr Dominic A. Azumah 11:05 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am on my feet to support the amendment. Rightly - [Interruptions.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:05 a.m.
Hon Members, the background noise is too much.
Mr Azumah 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker, listening
to the amendment made by the Chairman of the Committee, it is obvious that we cannot have an educational period with ambiguity. It must be certain as to the number of years a particular policy is to be carried along. And so to put in “not less than”, with doubt, I think that it is not the best in formulation. I think that if we want to have it straight, it must be clear that we want either three, four, or five years but we cannot say “not less than”.
So I think that with the amendment

moved, it will clarify the situation that we are actually advocating for a specific period and I, therefore, support this amendment and urge all Hon Members to go along with it.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:15 a.m.
Mr
Speaker, I rise to oppose the amendment and my position is based really on our Standing Orders. Mr Speaker, if you look at Order 116, and with your permission, I will read. It says:
“Every Bill shall be accompanied by an explanatory memorandum setting out in detail the policy and principles of the Bill, the defects of the existing law, if any, the remedies proposed to deal with those defects and the necessity for its introduction. The memorandum shall be signed by a Minister or a Member introducing the Bill.”
So Mr Speaker, I asked myself, is the Bill that has been brought by the Hon Minister for Education in conformity with Order 116? I say that it is. Mr Speaker, why do I say that it is? Because stating that the duration of senior high school will be not less than three years, will be in conformity with the Government's policy and I believe that it also makes it less partisan.
Mr Speaker, I am very much concerned about the way we seem to be making a lot of things partisan in this country. However, it is a danger for us if we decide to make education partisan by legislation.
Mr Speaker, we are all aware that the previous Administration introduced a four- year programme.
Indeed, because the Education Bill
itself had been revised and replaced by Act 798, it became necessary to include the period. Mr Speaker, if -
Mr Abdul-Rashid Pelpuo 11:15 a.m.
On a point
of order. Mr Speaker, the very respected Hon Member, in his initial submission, said that he opposed, it because the Bill did not come with any memorandum. But the Bill is here with a memorandum and stating the principles that he said he did not see. I do not know what he is looking for.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:15 a.m.
Thank you
very much. I will just urge the Hon Deputy Majority Leader, who is in Leadership to please be patient and listen to what Hon Members say. I did not say that; I said that the memorandum really supports the proposition in the Bill because it really makes it less partisan, so that if another Administration comes and decides that it wants to take it to four or five years, it will be in conformity with this Bill, without necessarily bringing an amendment by way of a government proposal.
To say that to make it certain -- I believe that this Government came and decided that, for us, we believe that four years will be all right”. I do not have a problem with it; it is in government. But we should not create a situation where a policy of government relating to education always has to be introduced into this country by way of an amendment to a law. I believe that this proposal -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon Member for Sekondi, read paragraph one of the memorandum that you have referred to and the Long Title.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
it says that:
“An Act to amend the Education Act, 2008 (Act 778) to review the duration of the senior high school from four to three years.”
And the proposed amendment introduced
by the Hon Minister supports the Long Title. It says “not less than” three years. So that, whether it becomes four, five or six years, can be introduced by way of administrative policy by Government. That is my point. It is because once we decide that -- Next time, another Administration comes and it decides that it should be four years, then -- [Inaudible]-- And it is for this reason that I am opposing the amendment being proposed by the Chairman of the Committee.
Mr Puozaa 11:15 a.m.
On a point of order.
Mr Speaker, my opinion is that the Hon Colleague who is also a very serious member of the Committee is misleading this House. This is because he was part of the Committee that looked at this and really saw that there was a contradiction between the memorandum and what is stated in the Long Title. Here, it states that it should be specifically three years and at the end of the same memorandum, it is stated that and Mr Speaker, with your permission, I quote:
“The amendment will provide a legal backing for the implementation of the three-year programme”.
Then in the Long Title, we have and Mr Speaker, with your permission, I quote:
“An Act to amend the Education Act, 2008 (Act 778) to review the duration of the senior high school from four to three years”.
I think the Committee -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon Member for Sekondi, the amendment filed by the Chairman of the Committee, is it in the name of the Committee? I just want to know.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:15 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:15 a.m.
it is an amendment in the name of the Committee. However, if Hon Members will recall, it was stated in the Committee's report that the Committee proposed this amendment by majority vote. There was no unanimity, there was no consensus.

Indeed, just recently, the Chairman of the Finance Committee completely withdrew a Report of the Committee. I am saying that the point I am making is not contrary to the spirit of the Committee's Report. This is because the Committee recognized that indeed, it was by majority decision, which is something very rare when it comes to committee reports in this House. It was not unanimous, it was not by consensus, it was by a majority, which implies that at the committee level, there was strong and strenuous opposition to the proposed amendment.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:15 a.m.
Hon
Members, we devoted a lot of time during the Second Reading and it was very clear that positions were taken on this matter.
However, I will take a few more Members and then if I am properly advised, I will put the Question.
Mr Avoka 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is my
humble view that clause 1 of the Bill, as it stands now, is inconsistent with the memorandum of the Bill as well as the Long Title.
Mr Speaker, the memorandum is
very clear that the purpose of the Bill is to reduce the length of second cycle education from four years to three years in accordance with current Government policy. So the emphasis is to reduce the number of years in the second cycle school, from four years to three years.
Now, if you look at the Long Title of the Bill, it says that and with your permission, I quote:
“An Act to amend the Education Act, 2008 (Act 778) to review the duration of the senior high school from four years to three years.”
So, those two documents are consistent.
Now, if you come to look at clause 1 of the Bill, it says that, and with your permission I quote:
“The second cycle level of education shall consist of not less than three years …”
When you say “not less than three years”, then it stands to reason that in some schools, it is possible for them to adopt five years, in some schools, they can even take six years, in some schools, they can take ten years, et cetera.
What law is it that we are making for the guidance of this country? That in some schools - the law says that “not less than three years” we have decided to make it five years and they are at liberty to do so because the law entitles them to do that. In some schools, they can take four years, in some schools, they can take ten years as Hon Balado Manu is saying. Is that the type of law that we are passing here? That is certainly inconsistent with the spirit of the memorandum and the Long Title.
It is in this respect that I hold the
view that the proposed amendment by the Committee is in place. It is going to make the law clear, that all senior high schools are entitled to do three years and
Mr Avoka 11:25 a.m.


not any more.

The re fo re , no headmas te r o r headmistress can unilaterally decide to make it five years or six years because of lack of logistics or teachers or whatnots in their schools, or for whatever reasons. It is neater to accept this amendment because the principle of law-making is that the law must be precise, clear and very certain.

The type of amendment or the type of law we are trying to propose, if we do not accept it; it is going to make the law ambiguous. It is going to make the law very, very ambiguous, it is going to make the law uncertain and therefore, its application will depend on the whims and caprices of heads of institution and not what the country is looking for and that is not the spirit of this Bill.

So it is in this respect that I invite Hon Colleagues to accept and vote for the amendment proposed by the Committee.
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on a point of order.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
You are
on a point of order against who?
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker,

Mr Speaker, the point canvassed by the Hon Leader is completely misleading to the House. Because what this amendment seeks to do is to say, ‘for three years'. Mr Speaker, what the Hon Leader is saying cannot be true, because if I have a private institution and I believe that I need four years or six years to prepare the students for the ‘ O' Level, let it be so. So why should we --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Hon Members, Hon Hackman Owusu- Agyemang has the floor.
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 11:25 a.m.
I have the
floor, and Hon Members should make sure they listen because some of us are very senior in this House, they must listen to us.
The point that I am canvassing is that, Mr Speaker, the Cabinet, the Hon Minister and those who brought this document, does not mean that we cannot change it. What I am saying is that education in this country is not hundred per cent provided for by Government. There are also institutions like the Catholic Church, churches and private institutions.
So if the Hon Member is saying that we should compel everybody to do the course in three years, it will depend upon the facility one has. But if we say “not less than”, then we are on safe grounds. The Hon Minister himself wants that proposition; I do not see why the Hon Chairman of the Committee, especially, when he did not get the consensus of the Committee, and the Leader is misleading by saying that we should necessarily make everybody stay for three years.
So Mr Speaker, the Leader is misleading the House.
Prof. Dominic K. Fobih 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
I rise to oppose the amendment on grounds that, what indeed the Committee discussed was that, there was inconsistency in what is in the Memorandum and what was also in the Bill. So this should be clarified. That is because in our view - the minority view expressed, that during the transitional period, if we convert to a three-year programme, there will still be students doing the four-year programme, and at any point in time, we are going to have that system ongoing.
So at least, during the transitional period, this phrase “not less than” is more preferable to a definitive period of years. That is why we strongly suggested a minority view on the Report. So I think
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Hon Prof. Fobih, you are on the floor.
Prof. Fobih 11:25 a.m.
Mr Speaker, what I said was that the committee observed the inconsistency in what was in the Bill itself and what was expressed in the memorandum and then came out with the point that this should be properly clarified. This is because in our view, during the transitional period, there would be some students doing the three years and there would also be students doing the four years. So the “less than” is more preferable.
For that reason, we took a minority view that we were opposed to the three- year programme, and that is why your Committee's Report strongly expressed this view. So I am saying that if the sector Ministry would go in for the “less than”, it would be more compromising on our part for us to accept the amendment.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:25 a.m.
Hon Members, I will take one from each side and put the Question. The battle lines are drawn; it is clear.
Mr Joseph Y. Chireh 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think that in making laws, this House has to be very specific. Indeed, if you look at the subsection of the Act that we are amending, it was very specific. It mentioned four years, it did not say up to four years or less than four years or not less than four years; it was specific.
I have heard the argument about what to do with the students who are going to their fourth year. Administratively, people do re-sits, people do extend; if there is a strike action, people go and do extra things. Those things are administrative.
People are also arguing that we should not be frequently changing the number of years as per government that comes. Education is so important that this Parliament must always have a say and be interested in what it says. You cannot make a law which leaves a gap open like that -- anybody can decide and you cannot enforce it.
If somebody decides that his school will be five years, what are you going to say? It is this Parliament that has to make the correct decision and the amendment that the Chairman has proposed is the one we all should vote for. This is because, it clarifies the issue, it accords with the memorandum, and I still believe that all of us know that we cannot just make a law in anticipation of other people coming and administratively administering it, no. It should be concrete.
This decision also is because if you look at the whole of West Africa, what is the period used for senior high school or relevant or similar institutions? Are we Ghanaians less intelligent that we must spend four years? No. Are we less intelligent than those who are even in war-torn countries? No. We have to make sure that the measures that are also in us, in terms of supervision, and in terms of all the things that we need to do at the basic level -- they are very important.
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
a point of order. I think he is misleading the House. The point he has made is very serious.
Nobody has said Ghanaians are less intelligent than other people from West Africa. We are just arguing for a particular
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon
Member, you have made your point.
Mr Chireh 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, that is why
I said that -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon
Minister, kindly wind up, I want to put the Question.
Mr Chireh 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker, in our view,
we need to be specific as law-makers and not make a law for anybody to decide what interpretation he should put on it. Parliament too should be interested in all things affecting education because it is so key to our success that we should not make any mistake about it.
I, therefore, ask that all of you, including my Hon Colleagues who are here, who are convinced by the argument, but who may be following a Party Whip, to just vote for the purpose of that. That I beg them, they should not let this opportunity to make a specific law elude them.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon
Members, I have listened to both sides of the House and it has followed the pattern of debate during the Second Reading. The House is divided. I will put the Question so that you vote. There is nothing - nobody from any side is taking any position, which is different from that. I will put the Question, otherwise, we will continue this ad infinitum.
Question put and amendment agreed to.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:35 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
I am challenging your decision. This is based on Standing Order 113(2), and with your permission, I beg to quote:
“A Member may call for headcount or division if the opinion of Mr Speaker on the voice vote is challenged.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:35 a.m.
Hon

Let us have the division bells rung and

Hon Members, you know that we do not have real division rooms; we do not have proper division rooms, so what I intend doing - it is on the advice of the Clerk - is to have the registers, everybody goes to sign.

Yes, we will have the registers here but you need to appoint tellers, one by each side. So let me know who the tellers are, then the signing too, two by each side.

Hon Members, who are your tellers? Hon Members, I will ask for the last time - if I do not, I will defer the process because -
Mrs Gifty Kusi 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we are here. Hon Ntim and myself.
Mr Owusu-Agyemanag 11:45 a.m.
Mr Speaker, according to the Standing Orders, are you clearing the lobby? The Standing Orders say that the lobby should be cleared. Are you clearing the lobby?
First Deputy Speaker: I have already directed on that.
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 11:45 a.m.
All right, thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Members, on the right side are the Ayes and then on the left side are the Noes. It does not really matter because the whole thing has turned into a partisan posture. So all those who are signing this are for the - [Pause.]

Question put and the House counted.

AYES --106
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, you have announced the results of the division?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
I have announced the figures. I have not yet announced the results of the division.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, all right, may I then sit down and -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
I have announced the figures -
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the figures of a division?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
The figures of the division and I am now going to announce the results.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
That is so. Mr Speaker, may I know the import of what you have done?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Refer to Standing Order 114 (5).
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, with respect, I will read for the elucidation of all herein assembled, since you called for a division.
The Standing Orders provide that we clear the lobbies; this was not done. [Uproar.] Mr Speaker, the Standing Orders provide that what we did, what we did will not amount to results.
First of all, in a division, you will sign to indicate your presence; that is what is contained in the Standing Orders. And for the elucidation and education of Hon Members, let me read -- you cannot announce any results because no voting has taken place.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I have announced for the clearing of the lobbies; I have announced for the ringing of the division bells; I have said those things and the Hansard will bear me out.
Hon Member, why I gave you the floor was that our rules allowed a Member who thought that he had voted wrongly to be given an opportunity to vote again. And so, when you got up, I thought you were taking advantage under that Standing Order. I am now going to announce the results.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker,
let me indicate that this leap-frogging is totally unknown to our Standing Orders. [Uproar.] It is totally unknown to our Standing Orders and let me say, this shouting would not prevent me from stating the correct position of the Standing Orders.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Members --
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, you cannot be circumventing the Standing Orders of this House. As the presiding Member, you cannot circumvent the Orders of this House. What you have done is totally unknown to our Standing Orders. You did so the other time; we allowed you to go free and you have done the same thing. It is totally unknown to our Standing Orders. What is this?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:25 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I have ruled; I have done according to my understanding of the rules. Your understanding might be better than mine. If you think that yours is better than mine, there are procedures to follow. The procedure that you are following is not the right one.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:25 p.m.
Mr Speaker, you are totally wrong. [Interruptions.]. Mr Speaker, you are totally wrong; we have never seen such a biased Speaker in this House before. You are totally wrong; the rules provide and it is in simple language. The provision of the rules is in simple language. What is this that you do in this House?
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon
Members, we are still at the Consideration Stage - Hon Members, I am not taking
any comment from anybody on this matter. I am not taking any comment from anybody on this matter. The last time -
Mr Moses A. Asaga 12:35 p.m.
You cannot talk
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members - Hon Members -
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
I will not enter disputations with him because he does not understand the rules- [Interruptions.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members, we are - [Interruptions] -
Hon Members, the figures given to me - the rules say that you appoint tellers and the tellers are Members of Parliament. They will give the figures to the Clerk and the Clerk will give me the figures to announce. The figures that I had were the figures given to the Clerk by the tellers, which are from both the Majority side and the Minority side. I have not conjured any figures from anywhere to announce to this House.
Hon Members - Hon Members, - Hon Christopher Ameyaw-Akumfi, you have an amendment there, do you want to proceed with your amendment?
Mr Owusu-Agyemang 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, point of order, please - [Interruption.]
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Majority Leader -
Mr Avoka 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the intervention by the Hon Minority Leader is just to draw the attention of the House to the provisions of the Standing Orders.
I have also looked at the Standing Orders and there is no provision anywhere
Mr Avoka 12:35 p.m.


saying that if there is no clearing of the lobby and the rest of them, the vote is vitiated or frustrated or undermined - the results stand. The results stand - [Interruption] - So, the effect of the division is clear and I would want to plead that against the background, let us proceed and do some work for mother Ghana.

I thank you.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members, -- Hon Members, when I preside here and I make rulings, I do not expect everybody to agree with me. But when you decide to disagree with me, there is a procedure to follow. I have not been informed by the Clerk that the tellers have disagreed with the figures and our rules say that if the tellers disagree, the Clerk shall report that matter to the Speaker. The Clerk has not done that we are still at the Consideration Stage.
There is an amendment there standing in the name of the Hon Member for Techiman North. If he wants to move his amendment, let him go ahead and move it.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, as you directed, because you have ruled, I was not minded to go back; but since the Hon Majority Leader is insisting that what I did was wrong -- please, if we advert our minds to Order 114 (2) - [Interruption.]
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
Why will you not hear me? You allowed him to speak; why will you not hear me? [Interruptions] - The Majority Leader just spoke, why will you not hear me? -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Minority Leader, I gave you the chance to speak - and that was why I balanced it by giving the Majority Leader the chance to speak. You have spoken, he has spoken; I called the Hon Member for Techiman
North to move his amendment. When you speak, he will speak again, another person will speak.
I am in charge of the order of this House - and you are supposed to assist me. You are supposed to assist me as Leaders to do that. We are not here calling for the interpretation of the Standing Orders of the House. I have announced the results given to me by the tellers.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, that is not in doubt - [Interruption] - I am not doubting the results that you have pronounced. All that I am saying is that the process was not followed through because Order 114 (2) provides us that we should sign to register our presence; then we go through and then we vote. What you have done, you are using the registration as a vote, which is wrong; which is all that I am telling you -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Members -
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
This is all that I am telling you - [Interruption] - and the Majority Leader rather unfortunately, jumped into the fray because he has not even understood the provision of the Standing Orders.
Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:35 p.m.
He does not even understand the provision of the Standing Orders and he intervenes wrongly. It is totally sad - [Interruption] - it is totally sad -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Member, I have looked at those provisions; you were not here when the division was claimed by the Hon Member for
Sekondi. I made the announcement that the lobbies should be cleared; I made the announcement that the division bells be rung and what you are talking about now was what was agreed on and announced by the tellers -- two from each side. What was done was what was agreed by the people implementing it - I did not go there - yes.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
What was done - what was done - what was done was -- so I do not really see the point.
Hon Member for Techiman North, kindly move your amendment, so that we would make progress on this matter -
rose
Prof Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, these subsequent subclauses are being -
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Member?
Prof. Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move, the clause, add the following new subclauses:
“(b) Any second cycle institution in which for three consecutive academic years, seventy-five per cent (75%) or more of its candidates fail to attain the minimum entrance grades for public tertiary institutions shall be considered as a weak school and shall run a four-year second cycle programme.
(c) An institution which is running a four-year programme and improves its level of achievement for three consecutive academic years as stated above qualifies to run a three-year programme but shall make arrangements for the completion of the four-year batch.”
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:35 p.m.
Hon Member -
Prof. Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:35 p.m.
Mr Speaker, these additional sub-clauses are being recommended to enable the Ghana Education Service and the Ministry of Education to deal with the large number of weak schools that we have in the system.
Mr Speaker, during the Second Consideration Stage, we did present arguments showing clearly that there were schools that had consistently been under performing for a number of reasons.
Therefore, most of these schools are not in a position to run three-year programmes.
This is why there is the need for us to look at some sort of flexibility but such a flexibility ought to be supported by law because the number of years that we are going to run, the programme should be supported by Government by public funds.
Mr Speaker, there is evidence from the league table which has been prepared, at least, for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008 and I believe such an analysis is also ongoing for 2009.
I believe that this concern is expressed by both sides and why this has become necessary is that, I did indicate that of all
Prof. Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:35 p.m.


the schools that we have, if you take only 20 per cent, provide up to 75 per cent, 71 per cent of those who gain aggregate 24 and there was some consistency; the tables are here. There are schools that clearly, over the years, have not even been able to produce 5 per cent of the total enrolment as qualifying to enter our tertiary institutions. So, this provision is going to make it possible for us to support such schools.

We are not saying that forever and ever they have to be running a 3-year programme or a 4-year programme. If the performance improves, they only have to complete the cycle and they get back into the 3-year programme. It is on this basis that I think that we ought to look at these subclauses and see how we can use them to help institutions that are currently weak.

Mr Speaker, I do submit.
Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 12:45 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to support this proposed amendment.
Mr Speaker, it is interesting that today the Hon Member for Sekondi spoke eloquently on the need for us to maintain the original clauses as in the Bill. He has come to this conclusion because I am sure he heard Hon Fuseini, when he was speaking on Friday, 24th of November,
2008.
Mr Speaker, with your permission, I would like to quote the Hansard. Hon Fuseini said,
“I beg to move, that clause 1, subclause (2), after “and” and before “a” insert “not less than”.
  • [Official Report 24/11/08, column 2250]
    • Mr Haruna Iddrisu 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    thank you very much for the opportunity.
    I beg to oppose the proposed
    amendment and to urge the promoters of this amendment that the thrust and principle of their argument are not debatable; they are not in debate.
    It is true that there is a dichotomy between the so-called “privileged” and “underprivileged” schools, the so-called “better schools” and “non-performing schools”. But the thrust of the argument, as I listened to the very respected Professor and former Director-General of Education, was flexibility. With the law, it is certainty. The principle is not flexibility.
    If we allow this amendment to pass, we would be creating two cohorts of SSS students, one which would run for three years and the other which will run for four years. It would be a betrayal of the principle of competition among people in our senior secondary schools; it will be a disincentive. Indeed, it will be an incentive for laziness. All you do is that “do not do well and then instead of running for three years, you will do it for four years.”
    Mr Speaker, there is even a more important issue relating to this and I think that the comments of the Hon Member who proposed the amendment, in my view, are matters which the Hon Minister for Education will accommodate as administrative interventions to improve the performance of deprived schools in order that they can be taken on board.
    Prof Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:45 p.m.
    On a point
    of order. Mr Speaker, my very good Friend and student at some point, misled the House.
    Mr Speaker, in this country, in the mid- seventies, you may be aware that this country ran ‘O' Levels over a four-year period, when the regular period was five years; it has been done before.
    The argument is simple -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:45 p.m.
    Hon Professor; kindly wind up. You are actually debating the matter again.
    Prof Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is no question that we are going to get good students coming out of the three-year programme; there is no question about that. But the number of students in that category is so small that we ought to do something about the large number that is unable to go through; that is the point that I am making.
    Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he has made reference to a practice which existed. In all honesty, Mr Speaker, that practice was not backed by law. Show me a specific provision at that age of a legislation which said that you could do four years and do five years. It did not exist.
    But Mr Speaker, we could read the reverse of Prof's augment. If you suggest and I am just referring to your own proposition, that any second cycle institution in which for three consecutive academic years, they do well; if we grant them four years and they begin doing poorly, are we coming back to say that we are reversing the law because they are performing badly? So the reverse is true.
    Mr Speaker, the more important argument is that, the minimum qualification
    Dr Prempeh 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Member for Tamale South, the Minister for Communications, in his submission, is talking about expanding university places. Mr Speaker, I do not know the sort of weird argument that is. What has expansion of university places got to do with inability to attain basic entrance qualification?
    Mr Speaker, he must speak to the issue; 80 per cent of the schools are not even bringing out output to attain the basic entrance qualification; that is the issue and not the places. If there are thousand places and still people cannot qualify, what do we do about that?
    Mr H. Iddrisu 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, tertiary
    education in Ghana today goes beyond university education. There are other associated tertiary institutions such as the polytechnics and professional institutions such as Institute of Professional Studies

    (IPS) and many others.

    Mr Speaker, my argument is that if this amendment passes, it is a recipe for confusion because in his paragraph (b), as he will soon propose, in one breath, if we do well with three years, we run four years and in another breath, if we improve with four years, we reverse to three years.

    Mr Speaker, the law frowns upon this flexibility; every law must be definite and certain. And we are saying that for senior secondary school students, they must know the duration of their study and contact hours.

    Clearly, that amendment had been carried to be three years. Mr Speaker, the thrust of their argument, I agree with; we have all seen evidence of results. If you compare Karaga or Techiman Secondary School to St. Roses or Achimota Secondary School or to Mawuli Secondary School in the Volta Region, you will see significant differences but these are administrative issues and we must challenge the Minister for Education to address.

    With these, I oppose the amendment.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:55 p.m.
    Hon Minister, please wind up. Very well.
    Hon Minister for Roads and Highways. [Interruptions.] Hon Members, I am balancing the number of Hon Members to speak. I called two Members; I could have called two Members here before coming to the Hon Member for Manhyia but I decided to call two Members at a go. We do not second amendments at the Consideration Stage.
    Mr Joe K. Gidisu 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I equally want to throw my weight behind the opposition to the amendment. My Hon Colleague who spoke last advanced
    reasons we should not entertain such an amendment.
    Mr Speaker, this is to introduce a class system into the education set up of this country. A class system which, perhaps, is being influenced by the orientation of the proponents of the amendment.
    Prof. Ameyaw-Akumfi 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to object to some aspects of the language being used by my Hon Colleague.
    Mr Speaker, where are the indications of the class structure that he is talking about? On reflection, I hope Mr Speaker, that he will withdraw that kind of language.
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 12:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am only saying that looking at the structure of the amendment being proposed, it is a system which definitely is putting a class of schools in a particular category and this is a situation that is not obtainable anywhere in the world; that two systems run parallel for an educational policy of the type that we are talking about. Mr Speaker, I would want to say that there is the need for us to look behind to see what we have done over the years.
    In 2008, we said we had started the four-year programme, but if you go down the lane, into the schools, nothing drastic has been done to reflect the psychic and for that matter, the psychology that one would have expected to go with our programme towards increasing the number of years to four. If you go to the schools, how long did it take them to get the necessary textbooks or even the syllabus to reflect the four -year programme?
    Prof. Fobih 12:55 p.m.
    On a point of order. Mr Speaker, my Hon Minister is misleading this House. I can tell that there was enough work done to improve the psychology of the schools when the reform was mounted. But rather, what has dampened their spirit, is the attitude of the present Government when he took office, the kind of pronouncements made by public officials, that dampened the spirit of the schools. So, it is not that enough psychology was not done with the authorities.
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the basic situation we are talking about now in terms of the challenges, one is infrastructure, but since 2008, before the new Government took over, a full academic year went without anything significant at all on the drawing board with regard to the building of infrastructure to take care of the four-year programme.
    Mr Speaker, this is where we stand, that there is the need for political commitment towards policies that we implement or for that matter, we decide on. And I want to assure this House and Ghanaians that this Government, just like the time that the 1987 Educational Reform took off , there were people who were doubting as to what was going to be the way forward. That Government had the political commitment, the political courage and the allocation of the resources to push that agenda forward.
    I would want, therefore, to assure my Colleagues that the suggestions that
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    I think a few fallacies have been articulated which need to be corrected. I do not think that the amendment which I am supporting will create a parallel system, no. There is an exit modus for the proposal that is being made.
    Mr Speaker, with education, we seem to be rushing to produce the people, where are we rushing to? Sometimes there are not even jobs for them. We have to educate the people and the education of those of the older generation compared with the new generation, you can see the difference. Mr Speaker, it should not be regimented by law, that everybody should finish a particular course in a certain number of years. That is why a caveat, a proviso is being made, that those that are not able to do it, will improve upon it.
    Mr Speaker, I had an occasion to say that when I went to St. Augustine's College, it was a four-year course and for the longest while -- I went in 1957 and for the past ten to twelve years, we had been doing the four-year course for the ‘O' Level. But later on, they changed to five years and it might have had its reasons. Mr Speaker, it allowed you to be educated in
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 1:05 p.m.


    the proper sense of the word, to broaden your outlook and everything.

    But I cannot agree with the Hon Minister for Roads and Highways that the educational reforms of 1986/87, whatever, in those so-called revolutionary days were any better. In fact, the major reason for which we find ourselves in this quagmire was the fact that the so- called junior secondary school (JSS) and senior secondary school (SSS) were never provided with the means to produce them. There was not a single school that was provided with even a workshop, yet JSS was supposed to encompass that.

    So, I do not see how the Hon Minister can stand here and declare that there was commitment on the part of the Government to provide the infrastructure.

    Mr Speaker, basically, I think that education should not be so regimented. As I said, if you take MBA, you can go to United Kingdom (UK) and do an MBA from October to June but in America, doing the MBA takes two years. You can go to European Institute of Business Administration (INSEAD)which is one of the best in the world, and it is one year. You can go to London School of Business, it is two years.

    I do not think education needs to be so regimented to the effect that, as I said, we cocoon ourselves into a situation where we cannot opt out.

    What this amendment seeks to do, Mr Speaker, is the fact that, schools which are not performing -- and basically, those would be the government schools -- are given the flexibility to be educated so that they would pass.

    Mr Speaker, it does not speak well of a school at all when you find that the majority of the pupils cannot qualify for tertiary institutions. So, when we talk about tertiary institutions, we are not talking only about universities, we
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we
    should be putting this debate in the right perspective. Posterity will not forgive us if we are looking at basic education -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon
    Minister, are you on a point of order?
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he is
    misleading the House.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Very
    good. You ought to say that.
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my
    Colleague who is a senior Member is misleading the House.
    He is talking about secondary education and he is comparing it to MBA. MBA is in a class of its own and that is a structure that we cannot bring into this debate, for that matter, he should come on again. The comparisons are not compatible.
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 1:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    the point I was making is that in education, right from the kindergarten to even the PhD level, are different and they depend upon the facilities available in the school and the quality of students' input that you have.
    All that I am saying is that with the amendment now passed, it regiments the whole system to the fact that if you believe that your people are not ready, even in three years, they must go and sit, and when they sit and they fail, it dents their confidence. That is all that I am saying, and just choose the middle part to do the comparison.
    Mr Speaker, I support the amendment in toto and I think that we should, whichever way the Hon Minister for Education sees it, maintain that amendment so that some
    element of flexibility is introduced into our educational system. We are not a communist country; Mr Speaker, even if you are a social democrat -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, kindly wind up.
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 1:05 p.m.
    Yes, Mr
    Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, communism is long dead, laissez faire is what we are practising. Leave the children, leave the schools to determine whether - And fear is quite clear. If some of them do not do well to go to the university, we will give you the chance. So Mr Speaker, I urge Hon E. T. Mensah who is now standing -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon Member, kindly wind up.
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 1:05 p.m.
    I urge Hon
    E. T. Mensah and all my Colleagues on the other side to support this amendment overwhelmingly so that some element of flexibility would be introduced into the educational system.
    Mr Clement K. Humado 1:05 p.m.
    Thank you,
    Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to oppose the amendment. I would like to advance my argument on the basis of its implication for planning by the Ministry of Education as well as allocation of resources.
    The way the amendment is structured
    will definitely create problems for the Ministry of Education, because any time a school is not performing very well and it has to change its duration of the cycle, it would call for resource allocation -- for the provision of classrooms, provision of logistics and all that it takes to accommodate the change, either upwards or downwards.
    In addition to the various arguments
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:05 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, I will take one each and put the Question. Again, the battle lines have been drawn; it is clear, so going on is not going to - Hon Members, I will call the Hon Balado Manu and then Hon Fuseini and that will bring us to the end of the debate and I will put the Question, except the Leaders want to make some intervention.
    Mr Stephen K. B. Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr
    Speaker, I rise to support the amendment put forward by Hon Prempeh and Hon Ameyaw-Akumfi.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister for Roads and Highways (Mr Joe Gidisu) made a statement that when the four-year system was put in place, no steps were taken to remedy the infrastructural needs of schools. Mr Speaker, that is as untrue as it is untenable.
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as
    much as he was the Chairman, I was
    the Ranking Member. Mr Speaker, the projects we went round to inspect were those GETFund projects in the training colleges.
    Mr Speaker, we never went round the basic schools. He should mention one senior secondary school where we visited to inspect the construction of their buildings. He should mention one senior secondary school which he took the Committee to. We went to inspect infrastructural development and for that matter, in those training colleges that were having those projects and that are still ongoing.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, when the Hon Member for Tamale South (Mr Haruna Iddrisu) was on his feet -- [Interruption] - he made allusion to tertiary institutions.
    I want the Hon Minister to understand that the four-year system did not come as a single unit. It came as a package and the package involved teacher training colleges where teachers were being trained to come and teach the secondary schools.
    M r S p e a k e r , i n f r a s t r u c t u r a l development had started in the training colleges and they were going on at the secondary school, level, except that time could not allow us to visit the secondary schools - [Uproar] -- He cannot, Mr Speaker, tell me that secondary schools in this country did not have GETFund projects going on there. They had GETFund projects -- [Interruption.]
    Mr E. T. Mensah 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what
    the Hon Minister, Mr Joe Gidisu, said was that they did not visit any secondary school. So whether you had time to visit or not, the fact still remains that you did not visit any secondary school. So I think he should withdraw that aspect of the lie.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, some people
    Mr E. T. Mensah 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I
    take strong objection to his statement that some people have decided to make themselves professional -- [Interruption] - He must withdraw that statement. Who are those “some people”? There are no “some people” in this House. When I said “you people”, they took offence.
    I have taken a strong objection and exception, so Mr Speaker, I demand that he withdraws that statement.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if I am to withdraw, I would say some Hon Members have decided to become professional points of order makers - [Laughter.]
    rose
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon E.
    T. Mensah, do you have a point of order?
    Mr E.T. Mensah 1:15 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    The Hon Member has decided to be a professional rabble-rouser. He is just making empty noises and I think that this must be recorded.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, that is not a point of order.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I respect Hon E. T. Mensah for his age but I disrespect
    -- 1:15 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, I have ruled that it is not a point
    of order, so continue, proceed.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    But I disrespect his

    Mr Speaker, in one breath -- [Uproar] -- we are saying that the schools lack infrastructure, they lack motivated teachers, they lack textbooks -- [Interruption.]
    Mr E. T. Mensah 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    you are aware that the statement to the effect that people are being childish, is unparliamentary. He is hitting below the belt -- [Interruption] -- and we can join him in that gutter. To say that I am behaving childishly, is unparliamentary and he must be asked to withdraw it and apologise.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have said it
    once here in this Chamber that I am like the Israelite - [Some Hon Members: Eh!] - if you hit me, I will hit and hit you hard - [Laughter.] When he referred to me as a “rabble-rouser” he thought that was parliamentary -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Balado, when he made that statement, I quickly ruled that he was out of order.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    You may rule me for
    being out of order, for referring to him as childish --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, I ruled him out immediately and I did not expect you - so by ruling him out, I did not expect you also to “hit hard”, - To use your own words, I did not expect you, having ruled him out, to hit him hard.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker may rule me
    out as well -- [Laughter.] Mr Speaker
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, you are not in charge of the proceedings in this House - [Laughter]-- and I do not want this debate to be an exchange between Hon E. T. Mensah and your goodself. It is not in the interest of this House. He has taken offence to that word that you have used.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    He has taken offence just
    as I took offence a “rabble-rouser” --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:15 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, I quickly ruled him out and I was expecting - Hon Member, when I ruled him out, you did not insist that he should withdraw those words. I would have quickly asked him to withdraw them.
    Mr Manu 1:15 p.m.
    Because I knew I was
    going to hit harder.
    M r F i r s t D e p u t y S p e a k e r :
    Unfortunately for you, we have rules in this House. We are not supposed to use abusive words when we are speaking or objectionable words. He has taken objection to the use of that word.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with the respect that I have for the Chair -- for the Chair I mean, I consider those words withdrawn.
    Mr Speaker, continuing with the debate, I would say that in one breath, we are saying that the schools do not have the infrastructure needed --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, I want to remind you that we are at the Consideration Stage. But the way we are all debating, it is as if we are at the Second Reading of the principles. I want you to be brief. You either support or oppose and give reasons and sit down. So, if you can -
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I said from the onset that I supported the amendment and I am advancing reasons to show why I support it.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member, continue and wind up.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, in one breath, we are saying that the schools do not have the needed infrastructure, the schools do not have the motivated teachers that they need, the schools do not have the textbooks, and yet the students should do it in three years. And another school of thought is saying because the schools do not have the needed infrastructure now, because the teachers are not well motivated now, because the textbooks are not available in the needed quantities, let us give the students some time more to be able to go through the course.
    I find the first argument to be warped. If we really care about the welfare of the students, we will not commit them to taking the examinations despite the lack of these things, we tell them to take it in three years. One would have thought that it is reasonable that because the facilities are not there, you give the students more time -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member, wind up. Wind up.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    That is why the proponents
    Mr Puozaa 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think Hon Balado Manu has misled the House long enough -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member, speak into the microphone.
    Mr Puozaa 1:25 p.m.
    He knows just like any other educationist that it is the base that really matters when you want to improve on education; not the secondary school and whatnots that we are struggling over. So, the important thing that he should have been arguing for, is the improvement of facilities there and not talking about secondary schools and training colleges.
    Meanwhile, I was also an active member of his Committee; he knows that very well. All that we did through the country was to look at the universities, polytechnics and the colleges. We never ever went down to the basic level. That was during his time. And he knows that that was the wrong thing. If we really want to improve on education in the country, we should be targeting the first six; the basic level.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Balado, kindly conclude.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I want to say that as Hon Chairman of the Committee, it is incumbent upon him to try to interject when I am making such salient points.
    But what I would say is that though we did not visit second cycle institutions, nobody in this Chamber, who is truthful to himself, would say that no infrastructural
    development is going on at the secondary school level and even at the basic level. That is why even the kindergarten system was mainstreamed into the educational system. That is why I said from the onset that the reform was a package -
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that if we are really social- democrats as some people claim to be, we should be thinking about the welfare of majority of our students -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member, conclude.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    In conclusion, it is said that and it is proved that only 20 per cent of our students in secondary schools are able to qualify to go to tertiary institutions. So, if there is any idea to better the situation, we should be thinking about the 80 per cent who are not making it. That is why the amendment is seeking to make the system flexible -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Thank you, very much.
    Mr Manu 1:25 p.m.
    Thank you too.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member for Tamale Central, you are the last contributor, and then I will put the Question. Be very brief, then I will put the Question.
    Mr Inusah A. B. Fuseini 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this motion.
    Mr Speaker, I can understand the intention of the amendment but it is totally misplaced. It is misplaced because it
    Mr Inusah A. B. Fuseini 1:25 p.m.
    infringes the Constitution of this country.
    Mr Speaker, I wish to refer Hon Colleagues to article 17 of the Constitution, and in particular, article 17(1) and (2) which say that:
    “(1) All persons shall be equal before the law.

    Indeed, Mr Speaker, if they do not appreciate how your economic or social status can affect the school - [Interruption] - Mr Speaker, I think that I need to demonstrate that indeed -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    Hon Member, you have the floor.
    Mr Fuseini 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we need to know that when the New Patriotic Party (NPP) Government said they were setting up model schools in all regions in this country, it was a manifest appreciation of the fact that some secondary schools of some regions were deprived by way of social or economic status.
    Dr Prempeh 1:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, around 2.00 p.m., 14th November, 2008, Honourable - [Interruption] - He is misleading the House.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:25 p.m.
    How is he misleading the House? Tell us.
    Dr Prempeh 1:25 p.m.
    On 14th November, 2008, Hon Inusah Fuseini was a lawyer and he is still a lawyer. And we have not changed any provisions in the Constitution he quoted. But I want to remind him something.
    Mr Speaker, why he is misleading the House is because of political expediency. This was what he said -- Mr Speaker, Hon Inusah was introducing an amendment to a Bill the NPP Government had introduced that it shall be four years. And listen to what he said. It is profound --
    “Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 1,
    subclause (2), after ‘of' and before the ‘a' insert ‘not less than'”.
    It is amended to read:
    “The basic level of education shall consist of not less than” .
    Mr Speaker, I am moving for the further consideration of this provision because the provision as it stands, appears to be so rigid that we must make provisions for persons within the educational system who are exceptionally talented, such that we do not hold them compulsorily to a six-year period at the primary level or a two-year understudy at the kindergarten level or a three-year study at the junior secondary school level.
    Again,
    “In any case, if we insert ‘not less than', we are only admitting to the fact that three years become the norm and in the exceptional cases or in cases where we have slow learners, the educational system would take care of them by repeating them such that they will catch up with the level…”
    Mr Speaker, I am quoting his constitution -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, that is not a point of order.
    Dr Prempeh 1:35 p.m.
    He is misleading; I am quoting.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    That was the view he expressed in 2008; if he has expressed it again on the floor today and he has gone ahead today in the debate to say something contradictory, then you can refer to it. It is a really a point of argument.
    Hon Fuseini, go ahead.
    Mr Fuseini 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have had interesting discussions with my Hon Colleague. But he needs to know that before I was a lawyer, I was a teacher and I knew exactly what I was saying. I stand to repeat them, meaning, you form the same years, you agree that education should be three years or four years and you provide an opportunity to repeat people to be able to catch up. I did not say that you treat different people differently. I never said that.
    Mr Speaker, what I am simply saying is that, and I am inviting Hon Members to appreciate that, yes, people could be slow learners. Indeed, when we were still in those days, they repeated some of us; slow learners, and those who were brilliant were jumped; fast learners. But what I am saying is that Mr Speaker, when you look at article 17 of the Constitution, this House should not tolerate this amendment; this
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, wind up. I want to put the Question. Make your last statement.
    Mr Fuseini 1:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we will be setting a very dangerous precedent for the people who are unfortunate to be in deprived areas and we will be sending a message to those schools which would be pursuing a four-year course that they are so bad that they cannot be given the privilege of pursuing a three-year course like their counterparts in other schools. Let us not go that way; we should stick to three years and three years, it shall be.
    Question put and the House was counted.
    AYES -- 78

    Amendment negatived.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:35 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, that brings us to the end of the Consideration Stage of the Education (Amendment) Bill, 2010.
    Hon Members, item number 8 on the Order Paper.
    Mr Asamoah Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is something very important that I want to draw attention to. We cannot just gloss over things like that, no, no, no.
    Mr Speaker, you called for “Ayes” Votes and “Noes” Votes. I did not vote in any of them. I thought you were going to call for “Abstentions” before going ahead

    to announce the results. It cannot be a true reflection of the voting.

    Mr Speaker, I need your guidance on this. You called for “Ayes” and called for “Noes” and did not call for “Abstentions”. I was sitting here; I did not vote in any of the two; it cannot be a true reflection of the vote.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, you are right. When I was calling, I watched round and I did not see anybody sitting down even though I had to call. Are you abstaining?
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want you to
    call for me to stand and be counted before you declare the results.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon

    Hon Members, that does not change anything. If any Hon Member wants to abstain, let the Hon Member let us know.

    Hon Minister, if anybody wants to abstain, let us know. Fortunately, this is a headcount and we have the figures here. So if you are abstaining, stand up to be counted.
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you have
    declared the results, what are we doing?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Member, if you are abstaining, stand up to be counted.
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think having
    declared the results, this is -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, if you are abstaining, stand up to be counted. Are you Abstaining?
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Yes.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Members, Abstention - 1.
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I further wish
    to draw your attention. I stood up for some time.
    Mr Speaker, to the fact that in an earlier voting, you said you announced that the Public Gallery be cleared. Mr Speaker, your Clerks were here, the Marshal is here and everybody was here, it was not cleared. You still sat in the Seat and presided over the gross defiance of your own order and went ahead to declare the results.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, you are out of order. I did not say --
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    All your rulings and orders are -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Member, if you want to quote me, quote me correctly. I never said that the Public Gallery should be cleared.
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am saying that you presided over a defiance of your own orders.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:45 p.m.
    Hon Member, I did not say that the gallery should be cleared; I said the lobbies should be cleared. And therefore, the lobbies are different from the galleries.
    Mr Ofosu 1:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, were the lobbies cleared? Were they cleared?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Education, item number 8.

    Suspension of Standing Order 131 (1)
    Minister for Education (Mr Alex N. Tettey-Enyo) 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to
    move that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 131 (1), which require that when a Bill has passed through the Consideration Stage, the Third Reading thereof shall not be taken until at least twenty-four hours have elapsed, the Motion for the Third Reading of the Education (Amendment) Bill, 2010, may be moved today.
    Mr J. Y. Chireh 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    BILLS - THIRD READING 1:55 p.m.
    Mr K. T. Hammond 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with all deference to the Chair, there must be some fairness in this House. Mr Speaker, we do not want to do certain things in this House with a segment of the House going out to feel, particularly, better about our proceedings and processes in this House. [Interruptions.]
    Mr Speaker, when the young man sitting there got to me during the counting,he pointed to me as number 85. I was standing here when he pointed to me as 85. Mr Speaker, under what circumstance does that metamorphose into 79 in the total, when all those Members here had not been counted? Mr Speaker, we are extremely unhappy about the counting process in the House which did not go on properly and we feel aggrieved.
    Mr Gershon K. B. Gbediame 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, when we had the first vote, where Hon Members present were made to sign their names, we had 79 from that side.
    Mr Hammond 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he supports the point I was just making. I was not here on the first occasion, so if we had 79, how come that when I added my vote to it, we got back to 77? Has he not buttressed the point I have been making? This is unfair and the tellers should be doing their work properly.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, we can express our opinions on the floor but the last thing we should be seen as Hon Members of this House to be doing is to try and draw in the Clerks -
    Mr Hammond 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with all deference to the Chair, this is not an attack on them, because if he had said that at time of counting, it was 79, when some of us were not here, how can we be here and the number reduces? When he actually said I was 85, when I heard him say 85 and at the end of it, he says we are 77, it cannot be so.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon K. T. Hammond, when you were speaking, I allowed you to speak. The least I expect is that when others are speaking, you will also allow them to speak -
    Mr Dominic A. Azumah 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, some of us are lost where we are.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, I direct that we Sit outside the prescribed period.
    Mr Azumah 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, a decision was taken, you announced the decision, the Third Reading was taken and we have moved from there. At that time, he should have intervened. I do not think we have to revisit things that we have already gone
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon
    Chairman of the Finance Committee, are your reports ready for laying?
    Mr Avedzi 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes, the reports are ready.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Where is the Ranking Member? Hon Member for Sekondi, you are a member of the Committee, are the reports ready?
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not know which report you are referring to.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    Hon Member, we were laying some reports and objection was taken about the reports and I asked you because you are a senior Member of the Finance Committee.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, unfortunately, I cannot be definite but we delegated the Ranking Member to liaise with the Chairman to deal with all issues, since recommendations are unanimous, except that now the Ranking Member is not here. I cannot be definite about it.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just conferred with the Majority Leader, and we had the Ranking Member with us. He has indicated to us that, there are some considerations that he thinks should be factored into the Committee's Report - [An Hon Member: Which one?]-- That is the STX -
    Mr Avoka 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think it is in respect of item 4 on the Order Paper.
    Those are the non-controversial Loan Agreements. [Interruption.] But STX is only one of such. But we can lay the others that are not controversial and then defer the other ones for further consideration.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:55 p.m.
    That is what the Minority Leader is saying. He is saying that apart from the STX, the rest should be laid. Is the STX Report not ready?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, exactly what I was saying; that we just conferred and the indications were that, they needed to factor certain considerations into that Report and I am told that, in respect of the ninth one, the Committee has not met at all on it.
    Dr A. A. Osei 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think what my Leader is saying is correct. On number (ix), the Committee has not even met. We are still working on the STX. The Chairman informs me that the corrections we went out to make on the rest are completed, so I have no reason to doubt otherwise. So, once those are completed, I think we can lay them.
    Mr Avedzi 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the issue about the STX is that, this morning, I -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, what I intend doing is that those Reports that are ready, as I call them, you advise me and those that are not ready, you advise me. I will start the laying of the Papers all afresh because I do not want anybody midway to take any objection. That is why I am clearing the preliminary points before we start the laying. So, we go back to item 4, then we will start -
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am sorry but we are laying the foundations for democracy and good -- [Interruption] -- Standing Order 75, we have been over indulging the committees to the extent that we are breaking our own rules. Standing Order 75 reads:
    “As soon as sufficient copies of a Paper for distribution to Members have been received in the Office of the Clerk notice of the presentation of that Paper may be placed on the Order Paper, and as soon as Mr Speaker announces “Papers for Presentation” the Paper shall be deemed to have been laid on the Table.”
    So, what it means is that, these documents should be ready in, at least, 230 form, given to the Clerk before it is even put on the Order Paper but we have been breaking the rules all along and sometimes we lay Papers which we have not seen.
    Two days, the Paper has been laid and we have not seen I do not think that for convenience sake, we should really ride roughshod on our own rules. I have spoken to you in private that they should make 230 copies available to the Clerk , even before it appears on the Order Paper, that is what it says. And now, if you want to make exception - we cannot continue indefinitely to -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    Hon

    Member for New Juaben North, we have taken note -
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am protesting that the rules must be followed. The Standing Orders must be followed and if you want to circumvent it, then you must come properly and tell us that we are suspending that particular -We cannot continue -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    Hon Member, that is why I started the process of hearing from both sides of the House on the Committee whether the Papers are ready to be laid. And they said, yes, some are ready and some are not. Hon Members, we will start afresh, by the Chairman of the Committee. item 4 (i).
    PAPERS -- 2:05 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, we have two other items there. Is it the case that those two are not ready? Is that the understanding?
    Mr Avoka 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, they are quite ready. We can take item 10, the Economic and Organised Crime Bill, 2009.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, I was finding out from you whether those Papers to be laid are the ones I have called; the ones that are ready. You are in charge of Government Business, I want to get that confirmation from you.
    Mr Avoka 2:05 p.m.
    That is so, Mr Speaker. Those are ready and we just need time for them to be distributed to Hon Members before we take them on after they have been laid.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:05 p.m.
    What about the other two, are they working on them to have them laid?
    Mr Avoka 2:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes. Item number (viii), we are still discussing that one.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, as much as possible, if you want to take these two matters before we rise, let us make sure that they are laid as soon as possible.
    Hon Members, we now go to item 10 on the Order Paper, which has been properly captured on the Order Paper Addendum.
    Hon Members, have you got the
    Addendum to the Order Paper?
    Some Hon Members 2:15 p.m.
    No!
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Education, will you be taking the Students Loan today? Are the reports ready?
    Mr A. N. Tettey-Enyo 2:15 p.m.
    The Report was laid and we are ready to table the Second Reading.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Some Hon Members are saying they have not got copies of the Addendum - All right; yes, so let them finish with the distribution and then we can take it. [Pause.]
    Hon Members , Economic and Organised Crime Bill, 2009 at the Consideration Stage -
    BILLS - CONSIDERATION 2:15 p.m.
    STAGE 2:15 p.m.
  • [Resumption of debate from 30th July, 2010]
    • Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, we are at the Consideration Stage, clause 75 -
    Mr Bandua 2:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not know whether I am to move this amendment because this clause was taken at the previous stage and -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Yes Chairman of the Committee, clause 75 -
    Clause 75 - Interpretation.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr

    Emmanuel K. Bandua): Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 75, Interpretation, definition of “gift”, line 2, after “indirectly” insert “before or”.

    So it would read as follows:

    “Gift includes a transfer of property by a person to person directly or indirectly before or after the commission of a serious offence by the first person for a consideration the value of which is significantly less than the value of the consideration provided by the first person, and to the extent for the difference between the market value of the property transferred and the consideration provided by the transferee.”

    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    We now go to the Schedule of the Bill. Yes -
    Mr W. O. Boafo 2:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you will recall that when we were considering the Bill, clause 75, and we came to the interpretation of “serious offence”, the last leg of the definition, that is paragraph (c) which reads as follows:
    “any other offence punishable with imprisonment for a period of not less than 12 months”
    We expressed some misgivings about the quantum of punishment -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Hon Member for Akropong, we are on clause 75. Is it part of clause 75?
    Mr Boafo 2:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we are moving
    Mr Boafo 2:15 p.m.


    to clause 76, that is why -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Yes. Very well. Hon Attorney-General -
    Mrs Betty Mould-Iddrisu 2:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in view of the concerns that were raised, we proposed that we delete paragraph (c).
    Thank you.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:15 p.m.
    Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, are you going to find some other means of bringing it in terms of imprisonment, because in my previous life, there was a precedent whereby a Legislative Instrument, they can add - they can bring it to -- in terms of the number of years.
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:15 p.m.
    That is so, Mr Speaker. We fully intend to do that. We have not had enough time to confer to come out with a more sustained, more non-controversial rendition of this. So for the meantime, I propose we delete and then we would look at putting something in the Legislative Instrument (L.I.).
    Thank you Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Hon
    Chairman, in view of what the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice said, would you propose the amendment, you and the Hon Member for Akropong, so that I put the Question and then we move on?
    Mr Boafo 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the proposed
    amendment is to delete paragraph (c) under the definition of “serious offence” in clause 75, page 36 of the Bill.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Hon
    Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, is it not to say that
    “for the term of imprisonment as
    may be indicated in an L.I.?”
    Is it possible? This is because we cannot close the matter at that level, so there is a serious challenge there. I know there was a practice where if you want to add a certain offence, then you come by way of a certain method so that it is in the Bill, giving you power in the Bill.
    Otherwise, if that power is not in the Bill and it is coming just like, it would appear like it is standing on its own. I do not know. There should be a way out; I do not know. If it is not even here, there should be a way out to solve that problem because in my view, deleting it completely also is a problem.
    Mr Boafo 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my original
    move was to ensure that we upgrade the term of imprisonment, not to advocate for its entire deletion. But I was just following the opinion expressed by the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice.
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,
    it is a problem. Maybe, we can do what you suggest because this also has to be in tandem with another Bill that we are looking at, which is the Public Officers' Liability Bill. We came across the same provision here. Unfortunately, the drafter has left now and I am in somewhat of a quandary, because I would have to come back to amend the law to provide for that deletion.
    But just to make sure that the Bill is actually passed, I am not sure whether or not we can do that in law, whether you can create an offence by the L.I. which is not in the parent Act.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    That one is difficult. What about using the classification of the offence, as to a certain degree of felony? This is because I see the difficulty there; there is a real difficulty. I now see your difficulty.
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think for the meantime, we could put your rendition there and if we delete “with imprisonment for a period of twelve months” and we substitute “as shall be provided for in the L.I. made under this Act”--
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, my attention has been drawn to certain provisions of the Constitution and that the law creating this thing must be certain. So, that earlier suggestion I made has challenges, but our only problem -
    Again, the thinking of the House last Friday was that the 12 months imprisonment is a bit - So, we may have to retain it here and then -- we have to retain that amendment.
    Hon Boafo, there are series of such challenges to that amendment because we can also not create it and leave out issues of imprisonment completely under the serious offence.
    Mr Boafo 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the certainty of the crime which you referred to, my understanding is that nobody can be charged with a crime which at the time of its commission was not in existence. I think that is the constitutional provision, that nobody can be charged with a crime which at the time of its commission, was not described as an offence. That is to the best of my recollection.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    The provision I was referring to is article 19(11) of the Constitution--
    “No person shall be convicted of a criminal offence unless the offence is defined and the penalty for it is prescribed in a written law.”
    So, the question is that, can that penalty
    be in an L.I.? If it cannot be in an L.I., then we have to put it in an Act because the offence is being created by this Act.
    Hon Boafo, did you get it?
    Mr Boafo 2:25 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker. I quite agree with your position and I would urge you to accept the proposal by the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, that she would soon come back to Parliament to amend it so that -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    That is a different law that -- Why do we not keep the original rendition as it is here, because we are faced with challenges? I was one of the people who shared the sentiments you are expressing on the floor now. But now, we are confronted with real challenges.
    So, Hon Boafo, I would think that if we can leave it here, then maybe, we can find a way of operationalising it.
    Hon Minority Leader, I thought you
    were going to make some submission?
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, not in particular, but I thought that a way out would be to put within some confines and because this whole Bill, the Long Title provides for “offences to recover proceeds of crime and to provide for related matters”. I thought for the clause 75, we could have some clarification to, maybe, insert the word “related.”
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:25 p.m.
    The certainty becomes a problem. Hon Members, for now the “12 months” there is the minimum. Is that right? It is the minimum, so let us go with it. We will withdraw the amendment; let us go with it and let us see how it is being operationalised, then we can come back as a House. So, let us -
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 2:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what I was saying, because “serious offence” has been defined in (a) and (b), I thought that for (c), we could just insert the word, “related” between “other” and “offence”, so that we have “any other related offence possible” -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    Hon
    Minority Leader, jurisdiction is conferred by statute and therefore, if somebody goes and interprets it and adds some other offence which the makers of the law did not anticipate at the time the law was being made -- so let us keep it there. I was a proponent of the amendment but when I saw it now, I realised that there are real serious challenges to the amendment. So that amendment is withdrawn.
    Clause 75 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 76 -
    Hon Member for Akropong, do you have something to say?
    Mr Boafo 2:35 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    You have
    the floor.
    Mr Boafo 2:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is the first time that we are seeing this proposed amendment with a tabulation. No notice of this amendment was previously given to us. I challenge the Table, they can produce it. I will sit down.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, you remember last Friday you were informed that there was a Schedule to the Bill and we all agreed that they should show us the Schedule today. That is what they have brought to us now. It is actually in reference to the Narcotics Control Law. Is that correct?
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:35 p.m.
    That is correct, Mr Speaker. What it is, is that we realised during the drafting that the main Bill deals with recovery of proceeds of crime and PNDC Law 236 has provisions in it relating to recovery of proceeds of crime. So we were advised by which, is the Inter Governmental Action Force against Anti Money Laundering and Financial

    Terrorism (GIABA). We are in West Africa, which is an ECOWAS agency; we were advised by them that we should look at repealing the PNDC Law 236, which is the Narcotic Drugs (Control, Enforcement and Sanctions) Act, 1990 in order to reflect the fact that these provisions are contained in the main Bill.

    So it is merely textural, what we are doing now. The proposed amendments merely are amending or repealing the sections of 236 which deal with recovery of proceeds of crime and which are replicated already in the main Bill.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    Hon Members, let us get the Chairman of the Committee to move the amendment.
    Mr Bandua 2:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to
    move, Schedule-- add a Schedule as follows:
    “SCHEDULE
    (SECTION
    76)
    S E C T I O N 2:35 p.m.
    AMENDMENT 2:35 p.m.
    Mr Boafo 2:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the problem with this is that, as I earlier pointed out, no opportunity has been given to us to compare this with the provisions in PNDC Law 236 and it is going to be ascribed to us as Members of Parliament who have passed this law.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, I agree with you that you have a point but
    what I am saying is that a lot of work has been done on this and you also know some of the rules with regard to Consideration. At the Consideration Stage, you know that the rules are relaxed, notices may or may not be given and that does not prevent the amendment from - But as much as possible, I agree that it should be part of the process, and we must be sure that what we are doing is right.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    The Schedule as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Boafo 2:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is just
    for my guidance I need some guidance from you. I find it difficult to understand the amendment to the PNDC Law 236 being effected under this Bill. I thought the proper place for it to be effected would have been Law 236.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:35 p.m.
    My
    attention was drawn to it this morning when I saw it, I asked the Table Office and they drew my attention to what we have done before in this form, with regard to the Children's Act -- this morning because I wanted to be very sure that we have precedent to follow and the Clerk- at-the-Table showed me that precedent. Under this law, we are handling certain aspects of narcotic cases and therefore, there is need to do that cross-preference for the avoidance of doubt. I think that is what has just taken place by way of the amendments.
    Mr Boafo 2:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would have appreciated and understood this position if the amendment here was to be applied to the provisions of economic and organised
    crime per se. This is because if one picks the PNDC Law 236, then one will have to look for the Attorney-General and Minister for Justice's booklet on how the various laws affect each other before one can realise that the PNDC Law 236 has been amended to this extent by this Bill. That is the problem. That is the problem we are going to face as practitioners and also as legislators.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:45 p.m.
    I know
    where you are coming from, that you have not done the cross-references. But you know that under the rules, amendment can come without notice. I also agree that - You know that if you look at all that we have been doing, reference has been made to the Narcotic Drugs (Control , Enforcement and Sanctions) Act, 1990 by giving them this jurisdiction sort of. So it is important that we bring it in line with the current Bill that we are considering.
    Hon Attorney-General and Minister
    for Justice?
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I
    sympathise with the Hon Member. But we are putting into place a process by which the new laws would be made more easily available to the public and we would then put the public on notice and especially, the practitioners, and the Hon W. O. Boafo about these amendments. I appreciate the difficulty; we noted it and unfortunately, this was the only way that we could cater for this particular concern.
    So I thank you for your indulgence.
    Mr Kwame Osei-Prempeh 2:45 p.m.
    Mr
    Speaker, it is not a question of even we understanding it. What we are trying to do is very clumsy. If we are repealing sections of that Act, the PNDC Law 236 through this, it is easy. But the kind of substitution we are doing, I believe we need to tread cautiously. Otherwise, we will finish and it would be meaningless by the substitution of the expression “to show cause under section 17(1), by forfeiture”. Let us look at the section - section of what? If somebody who was not in this House, takes the Schedule section, of which Act? Is it section of the PNDC Law 236? And are the amendments being effected?
    The issue is not clear. If we are repealing the sections to become clear, we can repeal easily through this. But the kind of substitution we are doing, please, let us hold on. Perhaps, we need to get copies of the PNDC Law 236, so that we can help them to do a neate job. Otherwise, we will finish and we will have done nothing. That is my admonition.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:45 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, if the substantive law, the PNDC Law 236 has been amended, that might be neater. But it is also not illegal to go by this way. In fact, this morning, as I said earlier, when I saw it, I asked them -- In fact, that is why I have ordered that they
    have to print a new addendum in this form, to be very clear. This is because the one that they showed to me was in the form as captured on the addendum Order Paper and different from the way it was captured in the main Order Paper. That was done and that is what they have brought.
    I think the point that the Hon Boafo referred to - Hon Boafo, the point that you referred to in terms of repeals and savings, you know that this is done by the Attorney- General's Department for us to know the new laws that are passed; how they do repeal or save another piece of legislation and all those things? They normally do it and we fall on them as practitioners to look at them and be sure that they are very current with the new laws that are being passed, so that we will know which ones are in conflict and which ones are being repealed. I believe that they have taken their time and they have done that and they are bringing them to us to approve.
    Mr Boafo 2:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have heard the learned Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and we believe that she will accelerate and update that booklet for our use.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:45 p.m.
    Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice, are you giving assurance to us that you will speed up the process of the review that Hon Boafo is talking about?
    Mrs Mould-Iddrisu 2:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do
    give that assurance to Hon Boafo because we are presently going to undertake a review of PNDC Law 236. So we will definitely do that and we will also try to - We are actually presently coming out with an index of all the new laws that have
    been passed from January, 2009 to date. We are coming out with an index and we will publish it in the newspapers and it will be given to the Ghana Bar Association.
    So we will endeavour to take care of your concerns; indeed, those concerns are also our concerns.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:45 p.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of the Consideration Stage of the Economic and Organised Crime Bill, 2009.
    MOTIONS 2:45 p.m.
    Mr William O. Boafo 2:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion moved by the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    BILLS - THIRD READING 2:45 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, let me thank you very much. I think that this is one of the Bills that have taken us a very, very long time and it takes the co-operation of the Leadership and the whole House to get to where we have got to. You deserve to be commended as a House.
    Indeed, the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and your Deputy, we also thank you for your support and co- operation and understanding in this matter.
    Hon Majority Leader, there was a message that you sent to me earlier but I thought that we should take this matter before we get back to your message.
    Mr Avoka 2:55 p.m.
    Well, if it pleases your pleasure.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, the suggestion that we do some suspension, that was the message I got from the Leadership.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 2:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we must, really; it is for your benefit. You have been sitting down -- I have walked out of the Chamber for about thirty times - [Interruption.] So we agree.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.
    Hon Member for Sekondi, that is why -- [Laughter.]
    Hon Members, you know there is a Second Deputy Speaker, so when it gets to a point that I am - Hon Members, when I got the message, I thought that the Economic and Organised Crime Bill has been on the Order Paper for a very long time and today, we should bring the curtain to a close by taking that matter before we suspend Sitting.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.


    Hon Leaders, how long are we taking?
    Mr Avoka 2:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the time now is almost 3.00 o'clock, so we come back at 3.30 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, 3.30 p.m. or 4.00 o'clock?
    Mr Avoka 2:55 p.m.
    Thirty minutes break, just to wash -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:55 p.m.
    So it is 3.30 p.m.?
    Mr Avoka 2:55 p.m.
    Yes, 3.30 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, the House is suspended for thirty minutes. We shall reconvene at

    2.57 p.m. -- Sitting suspended.

    4.05 p.m. - Sitting resumed.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon Majority Chief Whip, the items (viii) and (ix) on the main Order Paper at page 3, are they ready to be laid before we move to the Motions? Are they ready to be laid before we move to the Motions?
    Mr Gbediame 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, item number (viii) is ready to be laid.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon Majority Chief Whip, I asked you a specific question. There were two Papers that we deferred laying - I want to find out whether they are ready to be laid now?
    Mr Gbediame 3:30 p.m.
    One is ready, Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    One is ready? Which one is that?
    Mr Gbediame 3:30 p.m.
    That is the one I drew your attention to, Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Which one is that?
    Mr Gbediame 3:30 p.m.
    Item (viii).
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman and I met a few minutes ago. We have a few minutes of some work to be done. So if you can wait a bit for it to be done - [Interruptions] - Lay what? You lay it.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, I am saying this because you will be moving a number of Motions in your name and I thought that by now we would have resolved those two items which would then be laid and then -
    Mr James K. Avedzi 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we met and resolved the issues. The Minority's concerns have been captured but there are a few corrections to be done on their concerns so that we can attach them to the Report. That is what the Hon Ranking Member is talking about. But in less than ten minutes, that would be done.
    Dr A. A. Osei 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is precisely what I said. We just left the room and he is waiting for me to give him some documents to capture. That is why I am saying, let us stand it down -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    All right, let us wait for the next ten minutes because I want to have those two other items laid. If we do not do those things, tomorrow we might not rise early. So -
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, certainly, the last Report cannot be laid today because the Committee has not met on it -
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 3:30 p.m.


    “Report of the Finance Committee on the Loan Agreement between Government of Ghana and the Unicredit Bank of Austria AG for an amount of €7,300,000.00 …”

    We have not met as a committee. So certainly, that cannot be laid today.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon Member for Sekondi, when the Hon Majority Chief Whip got up, he said item 4 (ix) is not ready but the item 4(viii) is.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 3:30 p.m.
    Yes.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    And that
    is the one we are talking about.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 3:30 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    But I just wanted the House to take note that even the last one, we have not met - [Interruptions] - No, I am just saying that - Mr Speaker said he was waiting for the last two because we will be rising and I said that no, on the last one, we had not met. So, the earliest we can lay this Report, maybe, tomorrow. I do not think that is contentious.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Very well.
    So, Hon Chairman, try and get in touch with the Hon Ranking Member so that we have this item 4(viii) laid as soon as possible.
    Mr Avedzi 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that will be done.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Very well. What item are we taking now?
    Hon Members, I want to inform the House - It may be recalled that we asked the Hon Minister for Local Government and Rural Development to come and brief the House or make a Statement on frequent
    occurrence of fire outbreaks. I want to say that the Hon Minister has delivered the Statement to me and that we will try to find space for him to make the Statement if that is the wish of the House.
    You would remember that last Friday when the Business Statement was read, some Hon Members asked him that and he promised the House that we would make the Statement before we go on recess. I just want to inform you that his Statement is ready.
    Hon Majority Leader?
    Mr Avoka 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, item 29.
    Mr Speaker, item 4(vii) on page 2 has been laid. So, let us take Motion number 29 at page 17. We can take that one now, Motion number 29 at page 17.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 3:30 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, Motion number 29 at page 17 of the main Order Paper.
    MOTIONS 3:30 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 3:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80(1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Mixed Credit Facility among the Government of Ghana, the Government of the Kingdom of Belgium and KBC of Belgium for an amount of €9,474,271.00 for the supply of additional fire tenders, aerial rescue and fire fighting platforms, water tankers and other related fire fighting
    equipment for the Ghana National Fire Service and a request for tax and duty exemptions amounting to €1,928,932.00 on the equipment/machinery to be imported in respect of the Mixed Credit Facility may be moved today.
    Dr A. A. Osei 4:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.

    Mixed Credit Facility Among GoG, Belgium and KBC of Belgium

    for Equipment for the Ghana National Fire Service
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr. James K. Avedzi) 4:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Mixed Credit Facility among the Government of Ghana, the Government of the Kingdom of Belgium and KBC of Belgium for an amount of €9,474,271.00 for the supply of additional fire tenders, aerial rescue and fire fighting platforms, water tankers and other related fire fighting equipment for the Ghana National Fire Service (GNFS) and a request for tax and duty exemptions amounting to €1,928,932.00 on the equipment/ machinery to be imported in respect of the Mixed Credit Facility.
    Mr Speaker, in doing so, I present the Committee's Report.
    1.0 Introduction
    The Mixed Credit Facility Agreement among the Government of Ghana, the Government of the Kingdom of Belgium for an amount of €9,474,271.00 for the supply of additional fire tenders, aerial
    rescue and fighting platforms, water tankers and other related fire fighting equipment for the GNFS and a request for tax and duty exemptions amounting to €1,982,932.00 on the equipment and machinery to be imported in respect of the mixed credit facility, was on Monday, 26th July, 2010 referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution and Order 171(1) of the Standing Orders of the House.
    The Committee accordingly met and considered the Agreement with the Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon Seth Terkpeh, Deputy Minister for the Interior, Hon Dr. Akwesi A. Apea-Kubi and officials from the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning and Ministry of the Interior and presents this Report.
    2.0 Background
    The GNFS under Ministry of the Interior is ill-equipped to carry out its most important function of fire fighting in the country. During the 1980s, there were forest fires in Ghana which caused a lot of damage to the forest as a result of severe drought. Economic tree crops like cocoa, timber and even food crops were destroyed. Ghana was plunged into famine by this occurrence and had to seek assistance from the international community to mitigate its adverse effects.
    As a result of the challenges faced by the Service, approval was given for the procurement of single-purpose fire tenders from India through the ECOWAS Bank for Investment and Development (EBID) and US Exim Bank for partial financing for the modernization of the Ghana National Fire
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr. James K. Avedzi) 4:15 p.m.


    Service to the tune of US$15,013,250 and US$49,062,541 respectively.

    3.0 Justification

    A review of the present capacity situation of GNFS to adequately carry out its functions shows that key regional locations including Greater Accra, Tema and Takoradi with huge socio-economic infrastructure and expanding industrial activities are in dire need of dual-purpose fire tenders which can handle both class A and the complicated class B hydrocarbon fires, and for hydraulic fire fighting platforms. Moreover, only a few of the 170 administrative districts of the country can boast of a fire tender.

    Consequently, Government has received an offer for concessionary funding for the procurement of fire tenders to augment those that are being procured under EBID and US Exim facilities. A Belgian company, Somati Vehicles NV, is to supply the fire tenders and fire fighting equipment to the GNFS.

    4.0 Terms and Conditions

    The financing terms and conditions are as follows:

    Total project cost -- EUR 11, 099,271.00

    A. Grand amount -- EUR 1,625,000.00

    B. Loan amount -- EUR 9,474,271.00

    Interest rate -- Nil

    Grace period -- 2 years

    Repayment period -- 9 years

    Maturity period -- 11 years

    Liquidity fee -- 0.30 per cent p.a.

    Arrangement fee -- 0.15 per cent (flat)

    Facility fee -- 0.35 per cent (flat)

    Commitment fee -- 0.25 per cent p.a. Grant element (A only) -- 24.56 per cent Weighted grant element (A&B) -- 35.88 per cent

    5.0 Observations

    The Committee observed that the project will be financed with a mixed credit facility from the Government of the Kingdom of Belgium and KBC Bank of Belgium with a grant element of 35.88 per cent. This funding satisfies Government's conditions for concessionary financing.

    The Committee observed that EBID credit is being used to finance the cost of seventy-five (75) fire tenders, related equipment and training. This does not include turntable ladders needed to put out fire in high-rise buildings which are springing up in our major cities. The US Exim Bank facility is being used to support additional ninety (90) fire tenders, four (4) turntable ladders, fifteen (15) water tankers and other related equipment, as well as four (4) service vehicles and (13) recovery trucks/wreckers.

    The Committee also observed that as

    part of conditions of the loan Agreement, all goods and services to be purchased from the loan are to be exempted from all local taxes and duties.

    The Commit tee was however, informed that the Customs, Excise and Preventive Service (CEPS) has done the necessary tax assessment arising from the procurement of the equipment. The total associated taxes and duties amounting to one million, nine hundred and twenty- eight thousand, nine hundred and thirty- two euros (€1,928,932.00) to be waived is provided for the consideration of the House. (Attached is the Tax Assessment Form.)

    6.0 Conclusion

    The Committee, after carefully examining the Mixed Credit Facility between the Government of Ghana and Government of the Kingdom of Belgium for an amount of nine million, four hundred and seventy-four thousand, two hundred seventy-one euros (€9,474,271.00) for the supply of additional fire tenders, aerial rescue and fighting platforms, water tankers and other related fire fighting equipment for the Ghana National Fire Service (GNFS), recommends that the House approves of the facility, in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution, sections 3 and 7 of the Loans Act, 1970 (Act 335) and the Standing Orders of the House.

    The Committee also recommends to the House to approve the request for the waiver and exemption of taxes and duties amounting to one million, nine hundred and eighty-two thousand, nine hundred and thirty-two euros (€1,982,932.00) on the said fire fighting equipment/machinery in accordance with article 174(2) of the Constitution and the Standing Orders of the House.

    Respectfully submitted.
    Dr Anthony A. Osei (NPP - Tafo) 4:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion number 30 on the Order Paper, that this House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Mixed Credit Facility between Government of Ghana and the Government of Belgium for an amount of €9,474,271.00, in addition, the exemption of taxes to the tune and over
    €1,982,932.00.
    Mr Speaker, the Ghana National Fire Service, we know, has in the last one and a half years experienced serious difficulty with respect to its capacity to stop fires including that of the former President, Flt. Lt J. J. Rawlings' residence.
    Aside from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration, there are other agencies that have suffered fire simply because the Ghana National Fire Service - [Interruption] - has not been equipped enough to do this.
    Mr Speaker, in the last couple of years, the previous Government and this Government have initiated various moves to address this gap. There have been facilities from the United States (US) Government, as well as the Indian Government, the ABIT facility at ECOWAS Bank in the Ivory Coast and this one. Those of us who know the history, know that this facility has been in the offing for a long time.
    The initial issue was the pricing. But
    Dr Anthony A. Osei (NPP - Tafo) 4:15 p.m.


    4.15 P.M. PAGE 7

    4.15 P.M. PAGE 8
    Dr Anthony A. Osei (NPP - Tafo) 4:15 p.m.
    4.15 P.M. PAGE 9

    in discussing the matter with the Deputy Minister for the Interior, it became clear that they have been able to do some comparative analysis and the pricing is not too much different from what obtained with the US one. For that reason, they are more comfortable to bring it now.

    You would note that if the Belgium Government had not done two things, maybe, the pricing would have been higher. The first one is the grant amount, as indicated on page (3), of €1,625,000.00; and the second one is to ensure that the interest rate is zero; this allows the pricing to be comparable to what obtains in other areas.

    Mr Speaker, I think all of us agree that the Ghana National Fire Service needs to be equipped and I want to urge all Hon Members to support this particular Report and adopt it so that our Ghana National Fire Service can be equipped to do what it has been mandated to do.

    Question proposed.
    Alhaji Sumani Abukari (NDC - Tamale North) 4:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am happy that at long last we are giving some attention to the very important Ghana National Fire Service under the Ministry of the Interior.
    As has been stated by the Ranking Member, last year, in this country, we saw some terrible fire outbreaks in very, very important State buildings, destroying a lot of records that had been kept over a period of time and denying us of the information therein.
    Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure and I believe the pleasure of all Hon Members of this House, that this House can associate itself with the moves by the Ministry of the Interior to properly arm the Ghana Nationa Fire Service so that future challenges can be met with efficiency and professionalism.
    Mr Speaker, I want to remind those of us who are old enough in this House about the fires in the 1980s in our forest areas which destroyed a lot of our commercial
    trees and forest products and which definitely sent or reduced grossly our financial standing.
    Mr Speaker, we also remember the numerous bushfires that occurred in the savannah areas annually and which destroyed a lot of crops, especially rice, and which denied the poor farmer the meagre income that he made on these ‘crops.
    Mr Speaker, it is my hope that with the equipping of the Ghana National Fire Service, as has been stated here, these fires can now be put out or be nibbed in the bud so that the destruction that they cause to our farmers and our forests can be averted.
    Mr Speaker, I will go on to say that the Ghana National Fire Service still needs a lot of assistance. We should not think that we have done a lot for them just by passing this Motion. Mr Speaker, the GNFS needs a lot of help from us. Those of us who watch the Cable News Network (CNN) and other European television stations, will remember that year in, year out, the United States of American Government sends helicopters around fire zones to put out dangerous fires from the air.
    Mr Speaker, I believe that we need such helicopters for our forest, areas, particularly because when the fires come raging, our poor GNFS men cannot go there in their trucks to put out those fires; we will need sophisticated equipment that fly over the fire and drop chemicals on them.
    So maybe, we should also think of not just high-rise buildings but thick forest areas which need to be dealt with or where fire needs to be combated when the need arises.
    Mr Speaker, with these few words, I believe that we will all unanimously and happily support this Motion to further equip our GNFS.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:25 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, this is not a controversial
    3801GOG/Kingdom of Belgium 2 August, 2010 Mixed Credit Agreement
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 4:35 p.m.
    On a point of order. Mr Speaker, as I said, unless you are told, it says “26 units dual purpose fire- fighting tender.” Then when we go to the next one, it says “4 units water tankers”. A water tanker for €930,000 divided by four. Mr Speaker, the price of the water tanker is adding up to something like, €25,000,
    which is about US$250,000. So unless we know the capacity; we would not be able - as I said, this was a controversial thing they brought, which I turned down, and I think Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah also turned it down, and it has come back again.
    So Mr Speaker, we need to do due diligence to find out how much it is. A water tanker cannot cost US$250,000. Mr Speaker, it is completely out of this world, and so we want to know precisely what they are doing because €25,000 , it is about US$300,000 and it is too much, on the high side. So we need to know the details, and I request that even if we approve it -- the Chairman of the Ghana National Fire Council is here, so the Chairman of the Committee on Finance should give us the details. Otherwise, something that I had seen myself before, that I thought was completely outrageous, I cannot give my vote for it.
    They need the equipment but let us know what it is that they are buying, and this way, we would be able to help the nation -- maybe, we can get about five or six times as many tankers as we have. So we need to know these details.
    Mr Speaker, I think we should be clear on that.
    Alhaji Sorogho 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I know
    very well that when we are saying “water tanker”, it is not the type of water tanker that we see going round and carrying and distributing water. Being a former Minister, the Hon Member who just spoke knows the GNFS water tanker is completely different -- four by four (4x4), it has fire fighting equipment, it has the pressure holes and foam compartment. So it is not the ordinary water tanker. [Interruptions.] We understand but we want to take - [Interruption.]
    Papa Owusu-Nkomah 4:35 p.m.
    On a point of order. Mr Speaker, I believe our Hon Colleague, the Hon Member for Abokobi/Madina and Chairman of the Ghana National Fire Service Council is attempting to respond to the issues raised by the Hon Member for New Juaben North (Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang).
    Mr Speaker, I posed all these questions at the meeting. Certain figures were given and the Hon Deputy Minister for the Interior, the Hon Chairman of the Committee will recall that he promised to bring us the comparative analysis. That is why I am surprised he is not here.
    When this Report was being debated, I signalled to the Whip, that “where is the Hon Minister?” Because I was hoping that he would be here to respond to some of these issues. With all best of intentions, I do not think the Chairman of the Ghana National Fire Service Council would be in a position to respond to these questions.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, when the Hon Member for Abokobi/ Madina said that he is talking about four by four (4x4) vehicles, the fire tankers of GNFS are not four by four (4x4); they are double axle vehicles. They are not four by four (4x4) vehicles. [Interruptions.]
    Alhaji Sorogho 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to thank the Hon Minority Leader very well but I want to tell him that even articulators, we have four by four (4x4), four by six (4x6); eight by eight (8x8) and eight by four (8x4). I am telling him today, that even in articulators we have them. [Interruption.] It is the wheels that pull them.
    But I want to assure my Hon Senior Colleague that if he wants to get the details of the equipment like he said, which I think during the Committee
    meeting, a similar request was made and answers provided. -- If he still insists that he wants to see the details, it is not anything which is bad, we will supply him with the details.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 4:35 p.m.
    On a point of order. Mr Speaker, I thought for the reason of the Hon Colleague's intervention, the Hon Member for Sekondi said that perhaps, it would have been more useful to have had the Hon Minister for the Interior -- because it appears my Hon Colleague really does not have the answers immediately.
    In any event, why does he say that we should approve of it before the answers are supplied to Parliament? They are required of us to do comparative analysis and indeed, for us to do serious diligence before we approve.
    Mr Speaker, as I told him, and he has graduated from four by four (4x4) and he is telling us of articulators. Mr Speaker, there is nothing called “articulator.” They are “articulated trucks.” Let him take it on board. They are articulated trucks not articulators.
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the Hon Chairman of the Ghana National Fire Service Council should understand that I was Minister for the Interior for over 18 months and so when I talk of tankers, I know precisely what I am talking about. I am not a novice in the game. I was there long before he came and I understand what I mean. So he must not make it look as if I am referring to ordinary tanker that come to feed his house. That is not what I am referring to. I am referring to water tankers used by Fire Service all over the world. So he should please, make
    sure that he accords me that knowledge.
    Alhaji Sorogho 4:35 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, you know, I borrowed the word “articulator” from Suame. [Laughter.] As you are aware, wherever you go in Ghana, if you want people to understand, you say the “articulator trucks” and the source is from Suame. So I just want to draw your attention to the cost of even a suite -- a fire fighting suit. One fire fighting suit costs in the region of GH¢39 million and I think the Hon Minister himself is aware that, because of its specialized facilities, it costs more than the normal tankers.
    So on this note, I want to urge all Hon Colleagues to support this Motion, so that we can give approval to the report for the GNFS to continue to deliver services when they are required.
    Mr Kwame Osei-Prempeh (NPP - Nsuta/Kwamang Beposo) 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:35 p.m.
    Hon Members, I have given the indication that I will give the chance to the Hon Member for Nsuta Kwamang/Beposo - (Hon Osei- Prempeh.)
    Mr Osei-Prempeh 4:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, really, I needed a clarification, let me just state it and allow the Hon Member --
    terms and condition
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    Hon Members, you are either making a contribution or you are not making a contribution. If you now want --
    Mr Albert Kan-Dapaah (NPP- Efigya-Sekyere West) 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what is emerging, is the same problem that we have been talking about for some time now. Obviously, the Committee on Finance has limited itself to looking at
    the finance issues. If this thing had been referred to a joint committee, probably, some of the issues coming up would have been cleared. I do happen to know about the background -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    Hon Member, you did listen to the Hon Member for Sekondi, who said that those questions that were being raised were asked at the Committee. You heard him say it.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Committee on Defence and Interior could have asked more probing questions than was probably asked at the Committee on Finance.
    But Mr Speaker, an important point that has been raised is that, at the Committee level, they asked for certain information and the Hon Minister promised to bring it. Up till now, he has not brought it. So, on what basis are we being asked to approve this? Very pertinent questions were asked about the pricing and to the extent that we do not have the prices now, why should we go ahead and approve it?
    Again if I can -
    Mr Moses Asaga - rose
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    Hon Member for Nabdam, do you have a point of order?
    Mr Asaga 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes, I have a point of order because just about two/three days -- last week, we were told that these joint committee meetings should just be by convention occasionally, and he was there. So, if for now, he is again asking that a joint committee should have been there -- meanwhile, a Member from the Minority was the one who raised this issue that we should not be having joint -- and he is sitting close to them. And they are keeping quiet, they will not tell him, “look, we say we do not want joint committee meetings”. [Laughter.] He is wasting our time and energy.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    Hon Members, this matter has been raised several times and my Hon Colleague, the Second Deputy Speaker, as I said

    last week, made a very brilliant ruling on the matter. And so, we have overflogged this issue.

    Hon Kan-Dapaah, you have the floor.

    Hon Member for Old Tafo, you want to say something?
    Dr A.A. Osei 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my Hon Good Friend, Moses Asaga is trying to raise an issue when we are trying to help build consensus on an important matter. As you said, the Second Deputy Speaker has ruled on this matter and why he got up to raise the point of order, I do not know. You are in the Chair and it is up to you to rule but if he wants us to go back, then we will go back and we will never have consensus.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    Hon Member for Old Tafo, the point being raised by the Member for Nabdam is that, this matter has been overflogged on the floor. And I say, yes, the Hon Second Deputy Speaker made a ruling on this matter only last week. So, he was just drawing the attention of Hon Kan-Dapaah to that. There is no need for him to repeat that. And I did say -
    Dr A. A. Osei 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, he should have said the Hon Second Deputy Speaker has ruled, not that a Minority Member - it was the Second Deputy Speaker who was in the Chair.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:45 p.m.
    No!
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not believe that there is anybody in this House who will challenge the need for the GNFS to be sufficiently equipped. Indeed, I can confirm that, probably, there is no one single GNFS station in Ghana today, which is sufficiently equipped to do the work that they are supposed to do. In many places, you have the building and
    the personnel but there is no fire tender to do the work for them. Therefore, any request for us to equip the GNFS stations, I believe, is something that deserves to be considered.
    But Mr Speaker, the Hon Member has just drawn our attention to something which we should not ignore. He said that even at the committee level, certain questions were asked and there was a promise by the Hon Minister to come and answer those questions. As of today, we do not have answers to those questions, so how do we go ahead and approve it?
    Again, when I go through the document, on the financing side, I am being told there is something called “liquidity fee”. This is the first time that we are encountering, “liquidity fee” in this House. I do not know what ‘liquidity fee' is going to do. Neither do I know what the ‘arrangement fee' is going to do. It would have been useful if the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning was here to also answer some of these questions for us.
    Mr Speaker, in the absence of the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning or the Deputy Minister for the Interior, I think we should not rush this particular thing. We should probably wait, tomorrow when the Hon Minister comes to give us the answers, then we can have the assurance that we need.
    Mr Speaker, I have always drawn the attention of the House to the fact that, when we would have passed these loans, they subsequently become the subject of discussion at the universities. They ask some of these questions and wonder what it is that we are doing here.
    If I can go back to my old question; this Report has the same defect as I have been drawing our attention to. It does not tell us about the stock of debts, the foreign debt that we have now. It does not tell us about how we will be able to sustain
    it. The sustainability analysis is also not attached. How can we possibly -
    Mr Joe K. Gidisu 4:45 p.m.
    On a point of order. Mr Speaker, I think my Hon Colleague opposite would try to be circumspect. I do not know why they are always apprehensive when it comes to getting to equip the security services. [Interruptions.] This is a situation I find mind-boggling. So, bringing in the balance sheet of the country in terms of foreign loans and all those things, I do not think it is very realistic. It is not a very realistic situation.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, to all intents and purposes, the Hon Minister for Roads and Highways (Mr Joe Gidisu) is out of order and perhaps, he has not realized that he is no longer in the Minority but now an Hon Minister, because the language that he employs in this House is unacceptable. [Interruptions.]
    Mr Avoka 4:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was just going to plead that we have a task ahead of us, so let us try and address the issues and
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I take exception to what the Hon Minority Leader has said. His position is equivalent to a Ministerial position in the House, and he is better expected to serve as a role model on the same plane - [Interruption] - This morning, he was very, very rude to the Speaker; he was very, very rude to the Speaker and he is now talking about role model. He cannot be talking about role model when he himself, not a typical example for anybody to emulate. [Interruptions.]
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I will not descend into the gutter with the Hon Minister - [Uproar!] I will not descend into the gutter with him - [Interruption] -
    Mr Speaker, I was not rude to the Chair. I pointed out that the rules had been circumvented; I pointed out that the rules of procedure had been circumvented. Mr Speaker, that is what I sought to do.That is not rudeness - [Interruption] -
    Yes, Hon Moses Asaga, if he is the advisor, he better advise himself. Because at least , when it comes to using language in this House, he is known in this House to have beaten his chest and said that “pound for pound”, “he is a better person than Nana Akuffo-Addo -- we know what he is capable of doing - [Interruption] - He said so in this House.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon Members - Hon Members, we have a Motion before us. Hon Asaga, because the Hon Minority Leader mentioned your name specifically, I will ask you -
    Mr Moses Asaga 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the Hon Minority Leader did mention that I have ever said “pound for pound”. But he did not mention what the Hon Nana Akuffo-Addo did say to me before I mentioned the “pound for pound” - [Interruption] - So I will end it there.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, I will not take any point on this matter again.
    Hon Kan-Dapaah, conclude.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 4:55 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I just want to put on record, the fact that it is never true that whenever it comes to doing something for the security agencies, we oppose it. We have always believed that when it comes to investing, putting money into the security agencies, we believe no Government in the history of Ghana can compare its record to what we achieved.
    Mr Speaker, I also want to say that, there are a number of Ministers and as Hon Members of Parliament, we are always called upon to deal with various Ministers.
    Mr Speaker, many people will confirm -- those of us who have had to deal with the Hon J.K. Gidisu, will say that he is about -- one of the best when it comes to relating to Members of Parliament. So I can only hope that what he said, he did not mean it. He is one of the best. When you go to his office, he is so good. So I can
    forgive him for something that -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon Member, conclude, conclude. Hon Kan- Dapaah, conclude.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 4:55 p.m.
    So Mr Speaker, I will not want it to go on record, what he said. And I believe, Mr Speaker, it would be useful if you were to ask him to withdraw the statement that he made to the effect that whenever it comes to doing something for the security agencies, we on this side of the House are apprehensive. I want my very, very good Friend, Hon Gidisu to withdraw that so that it does not go on record. - [Interruption.]
    Mr Avoka 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I had earlier pleaded that we should remain focused and not diversionary - [Interruptions] - what Hon Joe Gidisu said is his opinion. It is not the opinion of this side of the House; it is an individual opinion. It is not unparliamentary; it is not an insult to Parliament. He just said it from his own conviction; his own assessment. That is not the position of this side of the House.
    So if it were unparliamentary, if it were an insult and the rest, I can appreciate that. But if it is that man's assessment, he may be wrong, he may be right, as far as his standards are concerned. So I want to plead humbly that, following my earlier submission, let us remain focused and relevant to the debate and address the issues.
    Thank you.
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 4:55 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, what I said was my opinion. I would expect them to prove me wrong by the current debate and the subsequent debates that would be ensuing on the conditions and other terms of service of the security services. If they prove me wrong, then I would come to apologise. [Interruptions.]
    rose
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, when the Hon Minority Leader made the point, all that he was saying was that, we should be civil towards one another I thought that would have ended the matter with regard to this issue. So I do not know -- yes, Hon Member for Old Tafo -
    Dr A. A. Osei 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I just want to remind my Hon good Friend that just last week -- I do not know if he was not in the House -- Both sides of this House unanimously approved hundred million for the security agencies. So if he makes this type of statements, he is polluting the atmosphere. It is not good for the consensus of this House and not only that, we are thinking about approving this but that type of statement does not help; it does not help us.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon Minister for Roads and Highways, the point being made is that the statement you made is not factually correct -- That only last week, they did approve, you know, a lot of credit facilities for the security agencies. So that statement cannot be correct. What do you say?
    Mr J. K. Gidisu 4:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, what I said was my opinion. But taking a cue from what the Hon Colleague MP for Old Tafo (Dr Akoto Osei) said, that I should not “pollute the environment”. I would not want to pollute the environment to generate any further debate on this. On that score, I hope they would just take it that I have withdrawn this comment.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 4:55 p.m.
    Hon
    Members, I was going to put the Question - [Interruption] - but I saw the Hon Second Deputy Speaker on the floor - [Interruption] - oh, you have not concluded? But I asked you to conclude? Oh, my Friend, your last sentence. Hon Member, your last sentence.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if I would be allowed to say so, I want to plead with all my Hon Colleagues on both sides of the House that we should be very, very careful when we make statements that can end up politicising the security agencies - [Interruptions] -- we should not do that; it is simply not right, and I am very, very happy that my very good Friend has done that.
    Mr Speaker, two issues. We are being told that your Committee wanted certain information and certain clarifications.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Member, I saw the Hon Second Deputy Speaker on his feet and I wanted to give him the floor, but you conclude so that I will give him the floor.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, two issues. Your Committee is saying to you that it wanted certain information and they wanted to sight certain documents. These documents have as yet not been presented to them. There is the question of whether we can go ahead to approve this when the Committee itself is admitting that information has not been given to it and it does not have the benefit of having the Hon Minister for the Interior here nor his Deputy to give us the information that they promised to give.
    Secondly, Mr Speaker, I want the Hon Chairman also to tell the whole House -- the Hon Chairman or the Hon Deputy Minister, what is “liquidity fee”. The

    liquidity fee that we are obliged to pay on this occasion, I do not know what it is. Again, what is the “arrangement fee” for and who is to be paid the arrangement and liquidity fees?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, wind up.
    Mr Avedzi 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we want to thank Hon Members for the support given for this facility, that all the concerns that have been raised on the floor would definitely be taken on board this particular facility -- [Interruption.]
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Kan-Dapaah, I want to hear from the Hon Ranking Member.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I asked two questions. At the very least, the Hon Chairman should respond to them. The Hon Chairman told us in his Report and it has been confirmed here, that he asked for certain information and he does not have the information. Why does he want us to approve it?
    Number two, what is “liquidity fee”? Hon Moses Asaga, what is “liquidity fee”?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Kan- Dapaah, you are out of order.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, seriously speaking -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Kan- Dapaah, seriously speaking, you are out of order. You should have asked the Hon Chairman of the Committee who signed this Report to explain the word “liquidity” to you. That one, you would be within the order. But you cannot speak to Hon Moses Asaga.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, Hon Moses Asaga was heckling me, so I
    needed to respond to him directly. I want to find out from the Hon Chairman, what is “liquidity fee”.
    Mr Avedzi 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a technical term which needs to be explained and I am going to explain it.
    Mr Speaker, when you say “liquidity”, it is about how liquid in terms of cash or debts that can easily be converted into cash. We are taking this facility from the Kingdom of Belgium. We are working on the effect of that liquidity. By taking this money from them, we are reducing their liquidity level; therefore, they are charging us for reducing their liquidity level. That is what is meant by “liquidity fee”. So it is a technical term; if you do not know it, you will not understand.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think it will be useful if the Hon Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning was to throw more light on this for us because obviously, the explanation given by the Hon Chairman - [Interruption] -- Mr Speaker, I think this is very important and it would be useful for us if the Hon Deputy Minister can explain what is “liquidity fee” for us because I do not believe it is the same as was given by the Hon Chairman.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, you want to say something?
    Mr Seth Terkpeh 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I concur with the definition given by the Hon Chairman, and in doing so, would wish to say that, for example, with respect to “management fees”, I hold in my hand an agreement that was passed by this House, le Societie General, in which we have structuring fee 0.50. These normally have -- Financial deals normally involve arrangements by syndication and others, so these are used to meet these costs.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with respect to my good Hon Friend, he says
    he concurs. He is on oath. It is not a matter of concurring with what somebody -- This is his area. He should be specific to this particular transaction. He cannot generalise. So, if my Hon Chairman is speculating, my Hon good Friend should stay away from there and not concur with him, because it is specific to this particular bank. So he should go and tell us that -- He can come back and give us the information rather than concur because assuming he finds out that it is different, he would have lied to this House and I do not want him to lie to this House. So, he should just say that he will come back and give us more information on this one.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Members, what I propose to do is to put the Question and then direct that the information - What is the Hon Member - I am taking a cue from the Hon Ranking Member - Why are you undermining the Hon Ranking Member? I am only taking a cue from what the Hon Ranking Member just said.
    Hon Kan-Dapaah --
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, no, we are not undermining him. We just want it to be on record -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    Hon Kan- Dapaah, did you listen to the Hon Ranking Member on the Finance Committee? Did you hear him say that we should take the matter and then they would provide the documents later? And when he said he did not object - I am repeating what he said and you are objecting.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I did not direct the Speaker to rule.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    No, you did not direct me but you made a suggestion from which I took a cue.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was specific to my Hon good Friend, the Deputy Minister. He was trying to concur with the Hon Chairman and I am saying that I want him to think about what he is saying. I did not go further than that and I cannot direct Mr Speaker at all.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:05 p.m.
    I am going to put the Question.
    Mr Avoka 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have no objection. I am just pleading with the House that we have been here the whole morning and it is commendable and it should be more commendable if we come together and close the day well. So, I just want to appeal to Hon Members to vote for the Motion. That is all.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:05 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think ordinarily, one should not have anything against your putting the Question.
    Except of course - I think very serious matters have been raised. The Hon Chairman of the Committee on Finance is signalling that he is expecting some information, if I get his gesticulations right.
    Mr Speaker, the more relevant matter is, if the Hon Minister assured the Committee that he was coming forth with certain relevant information and it has not come -- Mr Speaker, would you be doing justice to this House and to our conscience if we just went ahead and approved of it, when we did not know the consideration, and in particular, when the Hon Deputy Minister, for all he knows, is not able to even define to us what the “liquidity fee” is?
    Mr Speaker, I think we ought to be very serious with that. And we are also being told that on pricing, some documents
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:15 p.m.
    Hon Members, this Report is a consensus Report; it is not a majority Report and as much as possible, when Hon Members on the floor, in the course of debate, raise certain issues, I expect the Committee members who prepared the consensus Report to help the House in providing the necessary information, so that all Hon Members of the House can also support their Report.
    What I intend doing is to put the Question but to defer the consequential Resolution.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    MOTIONS 5:15 p.m.
    Dr Anthony Akoto Osei (NPP-- Old Tafo) 5:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    GOG/IDA Additional Credit Agreement for the e-Ghana Project
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi 5:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Additional Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR29.6 million (US$44.7 million equivalent) to finance the e-Ghana Project.
    1.0 Introduction
    The Additional Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Associa- tion (IDA) for an amount of twenty-nine million, six hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR29.6 million)
    [US$44.7 million equivalent] for the financing of the e-Ghana Project was laid in the House on Monday, 26th July, 2010 in accordance with article 181 of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Ghana.
    Pursuant to Order 171 (1) of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report.
    The Committee subsequently met and considered the Agreement with the Minister for Communications, Hon Haruna Iddrisu, Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon Seth Terkpeh, and officials from the Ministries of Finance and Economic Planning and Communications and hereby presents this Report.
    2.0 Background
    The e-Ghana Project (IDA Credit No. 4226-GH) was approved by the Board of the International Development Asso- ciation (IDA) on August 1, 2006 in the sum of US$40million (SDR 26.9million), with Government of Ghana counterpart funding amounting to US$2 million. The project became effective on November 21, 2006 and the closing date, which will be revised, to be coterminus with the closing date of the additional financing of June 30, 2014, is March 31, 2012.
    The project was designed to promote the development of a formidable IT industry, and effectively deploy e-government application to improve transparency and accountability in the delivery of government services.
    3.0 Purpose of the Loan
    The purpose of the loan is to provide funding to meet the financing gap under
    original e-Ghana Project components, arising from modification and recons- struction of project activities. The scale-up activities would include a Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information System (GIFMIS) component to enhance development impact of the project as a whole; for further enhancement of accountability and transparency of government financial operations using ICT-based tools.
    The rationale behind additional financing of the project is to:
    i. increase employment and income generation in the ICT/ ITES sector;
    ii. increase competitiveness of the ICT/ITES industry in Ghana and opportunities for local businesses;
    iii. i n c r e a s e h u m a n capacity in
    the ICT/ITES sector;
    iv. increase ICT/ITES-led export revenues;
    v. increase contribution of the ICT/ ITES sector to GDP;
    vi. have a more e ffec t ive , transparent and accountable governance;
    vii . increase engagement of the private sector with the government;
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi 5:15 p.m.
    viii . improve the recording, accounting and reporting of domestic tax revenues using ICT; and
    ix. to strengthen the policy and regulatory framework to support increased competitiveness, de- crease telecommunication costs and improve service.
    4.0 Terms and Condition
    The terms and conditions of the credit are as follows:

    Interest rate -- Nil

    Grace period -- 10 years

    Repayment period -- 25 years

    Maturity period -- 35 years

    Service charge -- 0.75 per cent per annum on with- drawn credit amount

    Commitment Fee -- 0.5 per cent per annum unwith- drawn balance

    5.0 Justification

    The total amount of US$44.7million being sought as additional financing for the project is in respect of:

    1. Additional e-Government Application at a cost of US$9.76m

    2. Regional Innovation Centers (RIC) at a cost of US$1.3m

    3. Business Process Off-shoring (BPO) centre at a cost of

    US$5.2m

    4. Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information Systems (GIFMIS) project centre at a cost of US$28.44.

    6.0 Observation

    The Committee was informed that the total cost of the additional financing of US$44.7 million would remain unchanged from the original project which was destined to assist the country to generate growth and employment by leveraging ICT and Public Private Partnerships (PPP) in two ways:

    i . t o deve lop IT enab l ed service industry; and

    i i . c o n t r i b u t e t o i m p r o v e efficiency and transparency of selected government functions t h r o u g h e - g o v e r n m e n t application.

    The Committee also noted that the project is divided into four components, namely:

    Component One -- enabling environ- ment

    Component Two -- support to local ICT business and ITES in Ghana

    Component Three -- support to e-Government Programme

    Component Four -- support to Ghana Integrated Finan- cial Management Information Sys- tem (GIFMIS).

    The Committee observed that the original e-Ghana Project has been amplified to include; establishment and

    use of GIFMIS-based Public Financial Management (PFM) functionality at GoG treasuries; improved macro-fiscal discipline and management; improved MDA and sectorial management; and improved financial management, control and efficiency across government. Implicit in the outcomes under the project is also the positive synergy factor arising from the introduction of an electronic platform for the Ghana Revenue Authority.

    The Committee was informed that the e-Ghana Project is now under the supervisory role of the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning.

    The Committee noted further that the Regional Innovation Centres (RICs) will enhance ICT infrastructure and services and serve as innovation facilities for each of the 10 regional centres. The RICs will all be connected to the national e-government network and assure internet access; run applications that will be beneficial to urban communities; create easy access to relevant local and global information and improve the information exchange between communities.

    The Committee was of the view that during the project mid-term review, additional financing was made to IDA in the sum of US$44.7 million (IDA CR 4773-GH) to cater for additional e-applications, Regional Information Centres, BPO centre and Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information System (GIFMIS) for the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning.

    7.0 Conclusion

    The implementation of the project is expected to result in an effective and transparent Public Financial Management. The terms of the credit are also found to be concessional.

    T h e C o m m i t t e e a c c o r d i n g l y recommends to the House to adopt this

    Report and approve by Resolution the Additional Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of twenty-nine million, six hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR29.6million) [equivalent US$44.7 million] for the e-Ghana Project in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution and sections 3 and 7 of the Loans Act, (1970) Act 335 and Standing Orders of the House.

    Respectfully submitted.
    Dr A. A. Osei( NPP--Old Tafo 5:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second Motion number 24 on the Order Paper, pages 14 and 15. In seconding the Motion, I want to say a few words about this new additional credit.
    Mr Speaker, one of the things about the e-Ghana Project is that, it seeks to provide some uniformity among institutions of Government including the Judiciary and Parliament.
    Mr Speaker, at the committee level, one of the things we found out was that, the e-Government Project was trying to do something for Parliament. And the question I asked was that, is the e-Government Project trying to determine for Parliament what its ICT needs are? Or is it the Parliament's strategic plan that should be implemented by the e-Ghana Project and I think this is something we have to look at.
    The intention is good, but if we are not careful, the e-Ghana Project will appear to be determining for Parliament how it should be running its ICT business and I brought it to the attention of the Minister for Communications.
    Mr Speaker, the project now, as it were, is taking a new dimension, where a large
    Dr A. A. Osei( NPP--Old Tafo 5:25 p.m.


    proportion of the additional credit is really going to be supervised by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning.

    The Ministry is adopting the new Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information Systems (GIFMIS) at a cost of US$28,044,000.

    Mr Speaker, I want to urge the Ministry to be very careful about it. I do not know that if we try to add up all the amounts of money that the Public Financial Management (PFM) programmes starting from Public Financial Management Reform Project (PUFMARP) to Budget Preparation and Expenditure Management System (BPEMs) to -- you name it, what it has cost the nation in terms of our PFM systems.

    If the Ministry has decided that this Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information System (GIFMIS) is the ideal solution, what I want to recommend is that, it is important that the ownership belongs to either the Controller or the officers at the Ministry.

    The practice of hiring consultants to direct the project will not yield any meaningful results and I want to advise the Ministry to be very very cautious of that.

    The unsuccessful implementation of

    PUFMARP is because it was not owned by the Accountant-General. BPEMS has gone the same way. If GIFMIS does not avoid that, this money will go to waste.

    So, I want to urge the Ministry to particularly make sure that the consultants do not give themselves jobs permanently; if we allow it, it will be that way; that has been the practice. So, it is important that the Hon Deputy Minister pays attention to it. I know there are currently some consultants there but there should be a time line for them to work their way out

    of a job.

    Consultants do not like doing that but the Ministry should insist that after a certain period, one year, one and a half years, if they have not been able to transfer knowledge, then they have failed in their business and we should not allow them to continue because the project would not be successful and this is very, very important.

    Mr Speaker, it is important to know

    that, apart from this additional funding, I believe so far, the e-Ghana Project has spent -- as we are told in paragraph 2.0 about US$40 million already. This is an additional US$44.7 million. So right now, we are talking about almost US$90 million. We need to know how much additionality would be coming, so that when we are supporting the project, we will know what it is all about. But all in all, I believe that the e-Ghana Project is a good project, but if it is not managed properly, it will not help Ghana at all.

    With these few words, I want to urge

    Hon Members to support the e-Ghana Project for an additional sum of SDR29.6 million.

    Question proposed.
    Mr Albert Kan 5:25 p.m.
    None

    Efigya-Sekyere West): Mr Speaker, to all intents and purposes, I believe the evolving ICT revolution qualifies to be called an economic revolution and it is important that as a nation, we are not left behind. That is why I want to congratulate the Hon Minister for coming up with this project.

    Mr Speaker, today, the communications sector is one of the key sectors of our economy in terms of employment. In terms of tax generation, the communications sector is one of the key ones, which is why Mr Speaker, I would have expected that

    the Minister for Communications or his Deputy will be here to throw more light on this project.

    Mr Speaker, there are so many questions that one would have asked him to clarify and Mr Speaker, one is not sure to what extent the Committee was sufficiently briefed. One of the things that this project is going to do, Mr Speaker, is to, for instance, build a data centre next door to the Ghana/India Kofi Annan Centre for Excellency in ICT. Mr Speaker, this is brilliant and I think the country needs it. Again, Mr Speaker, this project is going to have a special ICT centre understand, somewhere in the Free Zone. This again, is very, very important and as a country, we need it.

    But Mr Speaker, I have some concerns and these concerns are as follows: we have given a similar funding of US$30 million for this project. The first phase received the grand sum of US$30 million. As of today, the Hon Minister has not briefed us how that US$30 million was utilised. Under that project, we have what is called the Ghana Information Communication Technology Directorate (GICTED) and yet, nobody in Ghana knows about

    GICTED.

    Not long ago, we were talking to the Hon Attorney-General and Minister for Justice when she said the Judiciary had embarked upon some computerisation programme. Mr Speaker, under the GICTED programme, there is some funding for the Judiciary and yet they did not know.

    Mr Speaker, not long ago, there

    was a report, an audit report on the computerisation effort of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration. Once again, we were told that they were not consulting with the Ministry of
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 5:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe the noise is so laud that after this, we must close. The noise is so much that I can hardly hear anything. So, when he finishes with his submission, probably, have to move that we should close and go. We are tired also and the noise is too much.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we
    are going to give a substantial part of this money to the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning to undertake what it calls the Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information System
    (GIFMIS).
    An Hon Member 5:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, can
    you hear? Mr Speaker, let us close.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:25 p.m.
    Hon Kan-
    Dapaah, you have the floor. I have directed that they should tell them to stop.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as I
    was saying, a substantial portion of this money will also go to promote what is referred to as GIFMIS. Mr Speaker, I am wondering, to what extent the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning found it necessary to brief the committee members about the BPEMS, which this is going to replace.
    Mr Speaker, for about twenty years
    Mr Chireh 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my good Friend is arguing on an issue of whether Budget Preparation and Expenditure Management System (BPEMS) was successful or not. But you see, he is not looking at the other advantages that this -- [Interruption] - Yes, a point of order, because the way he was going, he was directing the argument away from what we are to consider and the value.
    First, it was to enhance tax collection; it is to ensure that exports are well monitored, and in addition to all that, to now say that Ghana Integrated Financial Management Information System (GIFMIS) should be introduced. I agree with him only when he says that the system should be built and owned by the --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    Hon Minister, you are debating; you are not raising a point of order.
    Mr Chireh 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my point of
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the point I was trying to make is that, we do have a very, very serious problem that we need to contend with and I am happy that there is a new effort, a new solution to address that. The problem that we have is that, under the Financial Administration Act, every MDA is supposed to prepare for audit of its financial statements at the end

    of the year. To tell Ghanaians that monies from the taxes that we have paid, that was given to the various Ministries, they are able to account for it on paper. Today, no Ministry is able to do that.

    The system that they put in place to do that, it did not work. So, I am happy we are going to have a new one. But I am saying that somebody should tell us why the BPEMS and the 4, 5, 6 previous ones -- why they did not work and why they think this will work.

    Mr Speaker, there are a lot of technical issues and it would have been useful if this House had been given the opportunity to have a better understanding of it.

    Mr Speaker, as I speak to you now, the Public Accounts Committee has just been invited to a weekend seminar at Sogakope so that they would explain to us what it is that they are trying to do for GIFMIS. And even before they have done that we are being asked to approve this loan. Mr Speaker, it is not good enough. We should have had much more information what it is that they are giving to us.

    But I want to reiterate what I said at

    first, that I believe it is important that we are not left out of the ICT revolution. It is so important. As a country, as a continent, we were left out of other economic revolutions; we were not able to catch up. If this one leaves us behind, we will not be able to catch up. So, it is good but in doing so, let us be careful and do the right things instead of embarking on fanciful projects just because it has become the practice to engage in ICT.

    With these few remarks, Mr Speaker,

    I want to urge you to ask the Minister to come and give us some more technical information beyond the information he has given for the financing aspect of it.

    Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic planing (Mr Seth Terkpeh): Mr Speaker, I wish to clarify a couple of points that have been made in connection with this debate.

    Mr Speaker, my senior Colleagues of the profession on the opposite side are right in pointing out that the GIFMIS system is replacing the BPEMS, system that was actually initiated around the period of 1997 and 1998. Mr Speaker, the intention was that, it would have a pilot phase which was initiated again around 2000.

    For some reason however, Mr Speaker, the pilot BPEMS system stalled around 2003 and 2004 and that is why it was never deployed to the other Ministries.

    Mr Speaker, I wish to also note that we

    have actually, as I briefed the Committee on two points, taken the measures which the Hon (Dr) Akoto Osei mentioned, in ensuring that the Director of Budget and the Controller and Accountant- General would be in charge of the two elements of the system and we did inform the Committee, that they are members of the steering committee unlike the previous time, when they were not on the PUFMARP or BPEMS Steering Committees.

    Finally, Mr Speaker, the reason we did

    not hold the seminar until now is that we were holding consultations with MDAs and other stakeholders and we also wanted to be sure that we had negotiated funding for the projects. Otherwise, we would have been talking about only conceptual issues to members of the Finance Committee and the Public Accounts Committee.

    So, as has been confirmed by my Hon Colleagues, indeed, we are going to be holding a detailed technical seminar for the two Committees on the GIFMIS
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I must say that I am most encouraged by the response that the Hon Deputy Minister has given and I thank him for that. But Mr Speaker, it creates another problem for me --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, you know the rules -
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    Yes, I know - [Interruptions] -- But Mr Speaker, if you would just give me one minute --We are being asked to approve this loan on the basis of this Report. This Report does not address the real issues that should have been brought to our attention and I do not think the Report is good enough for us to vote on it. It does not address all the very important points which the Minister has just explained.
    As I have always said, these documents will subsequently end up at the universities where they would be reviewed. They will look at it and say to us, “these people did not know what they were doing.” On the basis of the information contained in this Report --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    Hon Member, the Hansard too is also there. So that whatever is not in the Report, it will capture the explanation given by the Hon Deputy Minister.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think
    the advice is that, in future, they should ensure that such important information are also contained in the Report.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    The Report is not
    only for the use of Members --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    I agree
    with you.
    Mr Kan-Dapaah 5:35 p.m.
    And then, number
    two, the absence of the Minister for Communications is unfortunate.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    Item No
    25 - Consequential Resolution.
    Mr Avoka 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to
    crave your indulgence and respectfully request that the Hon Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning who has been following the Committee and doing this work, be permitted to move the Resolution because the substantive Minister is not available at the moment.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 5:35 p.m.
    Mr
    Speaker, no objection.
    RESOLUTIONS 5:45 p.m.
    T H I S H O U S E H E R E B Y 5:45 p.m.
    Mr James K. Avedzi 5:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I
    beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Avoka 5:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would take motion number 14 on page 9.
    Suspension of Standing Order 80
    (1)
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 5:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80 (1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR49.7 million (US$75.0 million equivalent) to finance the Sustainable Rural Water and Sanitation Project (SRWSP) may be moved today.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to
    second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 5:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Hounourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR49.7 million (US$75.0 million equivalent) to finance the Sustainable Rural Water and Sanitation Project (SRWSP)
    Mr Speaker, I wish to present your Committee's Report.
    1.0 Introduction
    The Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of forty-nine million, seven hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR49.7 million) [US$75.0 million equivalent] for the financing of Sustainable Rural Water and Sanitation Project (SRWSP) was laid in the House on Monday, 26th July, 2010 in accordance with article 181 of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Ghana.
    Pursuant to Order 171(1) of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report.
    The Committee subsequently met and considered the Agreement with the Minister for Water Resources, Works and Housing, Hon Alban S. K. Bagbin, the Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon Seth Terkpeh, and officials from the Ministries of Finance and Economic Planning and
    Water Resources, Works and Housing respectively and hereby presents this Report.
    2.0 Background
    About 41 per cent of Ghana's rural population and small towns have no access to clean water and two-thirds do not have access to adequate sanitation. Water- related diseases, such as guinea-worm infections resulting from inadequate water supply and sanitation continue to plague the rural population. With the implementation of the National Community Water and Sanitation Programme (NCWSP), access to water supply in small towns and rural communities in Ghana increased from 27 per cent in 1990 to 59 per cent by the end of 2009. District Assemblies (DAs) have also been given control over all water supply and sanitation services at the local level.
    Although the increase in access to rural water supply has been remarkable, Ghana needs to continue the current efforts in order to remain on track to achieve the 2015 Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) target of rural population coverage of 76 per cent for water and 63 per cent for sanitation. Thus, the project is a follow-up of the Small Towns Water Supply and Sanitation Project (STWSSP).
    3.0 Purpose of the Loan
    The purpose of the loan is to provide funding to:
    i . Expand access to potable drinking water and improve sanitation in small towns and rural areas; and
    ii. Strengthen the DAs and sector in- stitutions to improve the
    imple- mentation of sub- projects and en- sure the long-term sustainability of water supply and sanitation.
    4.0 Project Components
    The Project has three components, namely:
    i . Ru ra l and Sma l l Towns Water Supply (US$47.6 million);
    i i . R u r a l a n d S m a l l To w n Integrated Sanitation and Hygiene Promo- tion (US$18.6 million); and iii. Institutional Strengthening and Project Management (US$11.1 million).
    Terms and Conditions
    The terms of the facility are as follows:
    Credit amount -- SDR49.7 million [US$ 75 million equivalent] Interest rate -- Nil
    Grace period -- 10 years
    Repayment period -- 25 years
    Maturity period -- 35 years
    Service charge -- 0.75per cent per annum on the onwith- drawn credit amount
    Commitment fee -- 0.5 per cent per annum on the un- withdrawn balance
    6.0 Justification for Government Action
    At the strategic policy level, the Growth
    and Poverty Reduction Strategy II (GPRS II) and the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) identified rural water supply and sanitation as priority areas. The SRWSP is intended to be one of the water sector operations contributing to the overall water sector effort to accelerate access to water and sanitation services, keeping in view, the need to achieve the MDGs.
    Moreover, the project will support the continued implementation of the National Community Water and Sanitation Programme (NCWSP), which aims at providing safe water, improved sanitation and hygiene services to rural communities and small towns. Thus, the Government's priority of providing safe and potable drinking water for about 60 per cent rural communities as indicated in the 2010 Budget Statement would be realised.
    Socio-economically, the project would contribute towards covering the financial gap of US$330 million identified by the Community Water and Sanitation Agency (CWSA) in its 2008-2015 Strategic Investment Plan (SIP). The SRWSP would also support scaling up project activities in additional towns, where access to clean water supply remains low, compared to the national average for rural areas and small towns and in districts with high incidence of water-borne diseases (example, guinea-worm infections).
    Additionally, it is intended to improve, deepen and sustain the achievement chalked during the implementation of the Small Town Water Supply and Sanitation Project; by strengthening the capacity of public sector institutions at the national, regional, district and community levels in policy-making, planning, implementation, co-ordination, monitoring, supervision and reporting of activities.
    7.0 Observations
    Dr A. A. Osei (NPP - Old Tafo) 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second Motion number 15 on the Order Paper and to request all my Hon Colleagues to support this rural water and sanitation project.
    Mr Speaker, the project, as has been stated by the Hon Chairman, has three components; the rural and small town water supply, the rural and small town integrated sanitation and hygiene promotion and the institutional strengthening and project management.
    Mr Speaker, one of the first things
    that came up at the Committee is that, yes, water and sanitation are two very important issues but if you look at this so-called capacity-building component, it is not small - US$11.1 million out of the US$75 million. Mr Speaker, this is one of the difficulties we have with such projects. It comes with its project implementation committee, et cetera and very often, it does not transfer knowledge.
    Other projects typically bring in external consultants who stay on for the duration of the project. At the same time the World Bank begins to blame governments for the slow implementation. Part of the reason is that, these consultants use so much World Bank procedures. It delays the implementation of the programmes. So, we have to be careful when we are applying for loans from World Bank to insist that if they are going to be creating Project Implementation Committees, then they ought to take note of the rate of implementation.
    Mr Speaker, right now, I am sure Government has over US$800 million worth of projects coming from the World Bank that are not being implemented. It is because there is always this so- called capacity building project. We keep creating consultants, as if there are no experts in Ghana. And I urge the Hon Minister for Water Resources, Works and Housing to look at this component very carefully. There are enough consultants in the country and in the Ministry to be able to implement this project. We do not need too many external consultants.
    Mr Speaker, the second thing, unfortunately, creates problems for Government and we have to decide which way we would want to go. There is a requirement of five per cent counterpart
    funding. If this provision is not made, the fund from the World Bank would not come.
    Very often, somebody forgets to put this as part of the Budget and therefore, there is slow implementation. And we - the Hon Deputy Minister is here - the way to do these things is that, you budget for counterpart funding first and if you do not have enough resources, then you know that at least, these projects that you are paying money for, because they are loans, will be implemented.
    Mr Speaker, we are told that six regions were chosen. Central, Brong Ahafo, Northern, Upper East and Upper West. Mr Speaker, we want to urge the two Hon Ministers to begin to consider the four other regions because water problems are everywhere, particularly in my constituency, as part of the Ashanti Region.
    Mr Speaker, with those few words, I want to urge Hon Members to support the Motion.
    I thank you.

    Question proposed.
    Mr Charles S. Hodogbey (NDC - North Tongu) 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion; but having said that, I want to make a small observation.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at your Committee's Report, it concentrated on only six regions in Ghana, especially those areas where there are water-borne diseases. If you go to Volta Region, particularly even in my own district, North Tongu, there are so many of these water-borne diseases - bilharzia and even guinea-worm.
    When you go further north of the Volta Region, Mr Speaker, Krachi West, Krachi East, Damango and others, some places are even further north than Salaga and other places. But these areas are not
    Mr Charles S. Hodogbey (NDC - North Tongu) 5:55 p.m.


    covered in this Report. It is unfortunate that your Report was not able to tell us the basis upon which these regions were chosen.

    I would suggest that next time, the basis of choosing these regions should be stated in the Report so that other Members can be able to contribute effectively on the Report.

    Mr Stephn K. Balado Manu (NPP

    - Ahafo Ano South): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion and to say that water is life and whatever any government can do to ensure that the people of this country have potable water, is a good idea and should be supported.

    However, I realise that the facility is limited to certain regions and certain districts and that is where I feel that we should expand to cover more districts, because water-borne diseases are all over the country and to select a few districts to give them water, is something that I think we need to look at.

    It is said that about 600,000 rural population would be affected by this facility. It is a good idea, because when the people are happy because they have good water, they can then work on their farms and other endeavours to boost production for the economy to grow.

    I, therefore, wholeheartedly, support the Motion and urge Hon Members to equally support it.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end - Hon Minister for Water Resources, Works and Housing, you have not added my region and you want me to call you. [Laughter.]
    Minister for Water Resources, Works and Housing (Mr Alban. S. K. Bagbin)(MP) 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just to try, in supporting the Motion, clear the minds of Hon Members, that this is just one of
    similar facilities that would be coming before the House, and this one covers the six regions.
    There are others that cover Volta Region; there are others that cover other districts and all the districts in these six regions are eligible.
    The target is to make sure we do not just meet the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), but that we exceed them. So, we have other facilities which would come and would cover the districts and regions of Hon Members. But this one cannot be spread so thinly that it would not make any impact; that is why it is restricted to the six regions and it is for water and sanitation.
    I thank you very much for the opportunity.
    RESOLUTIONS 5:55 p.m.
    SRWSP 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Seth Terkpeh 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that
    WHEREAS by the provisions of article 181 of the Constitution and section 7 of the Loans Act, 1970 (Act 335), the terms and conditions of any loan raised by the Government of Ghana on behalf of itself or any public institution or authority shall not come into operation unless the said terms and conditions have been laid before Parliament and approved by Parliament by a Resolution supported by the votes of a majority of all Members of Parliament;
    PURSUANT to the provisions of the said article 181 of the Constitution and section 7 of the Loans Act 1970 (Act 335), and at the request of the Government of Ghana acting through the Minister responsible fo r F inance and Economic Planning, there has been laid before Parliament the terms and conditions of the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR49.7 million (US$75.0 million equivalent) to finance the Sustainable Rural Water and Sanitation Project (SRWSP).
    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 5:55 p.m.
    H E R E B Y R E S O LV E S A S 5:55 p.m.
    Mr J. K. Avedzi 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Avoka 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, at this stage,
    we can take Motion No. 17, at page 11.
    MOTION 5:55 p.m.
    Mr James K Avedzi 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80 (1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR58.4 million (US$88.6 million equivalent) to finance the Social Opportunities Project (GSOP) may be moved today.
    Dr A. A. Osei 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we got this thing not more than three minutes ago.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:55 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee?
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 5:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, they are still distributing this GSOP Report and then you want us to -- You do not want us to read and you want us to just stamp, stamp like that without reading it? Mr Speaker, today, we started early and then they are now still bringing it; he just brought it, I have not even read the title -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:55 p.m.
    Hon
    Member, by the time the Chairman would finish moving the Report, I am sure you would have got the essence -
    Mr Owusu-Agyemang 5:55 p.m.
    We shall take it tomorrow.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:55 p.m.
    The ingredients of the Report. Chairman of the Committee.
    Hon Members, I think that the point being made by the Hon Member for New Juaben North (Mr. Owusu-Agyemang), is quite a valid one but we must also remind ourselves that I am also taking note of the fact whether those matters are controversial, and the sense that I get from the Ranking Members and the members of the Committee is that, they are not. So, those ones which are not controversial, let us take them so that tomorrow the workload would be a bit lighter.
    GOG/IDA Credit Agreement for
    GSOP 5:55 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Hounourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR58.4 million (US$88.6 million equival3nt) to finance the Ghana Social Opportunities Project
    (GSOP).
    Mr Speaker, in doing so, I present your Committee's Report.

    1.0 Introduction

    The Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for

    3855 Suspension of Standing Order 80(1) August, 2010

    an amount of fifty-eight million, four hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR 58.4 million) [US$88.6 million equivalent] for the financing of theGhana Social Opportunities Project (GSOP) was laid in the House on Monday, 26th July, 2010 in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution of the Republic of Ghana.

    Pursuant to Order 171(1) of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report.

    The Committee subsequently met and considered the Agreement with the Minister for Local Government and Rural Development, Hon Joseph Yieleh Chireh, the Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon. Seth Terkpeh and officials from the Ministries of Local Government and Rural Development and Finance and Economic Planning and hereby presents this Report. 2.0 Background

    Ghana has experienced two decades of strong and sustained economic growth, with balance between the agricultural and non-agricultural sectors. In the last nine years, the average GDP growth rate was 5.6 per cent. These significant economic growth rates have translated into substantial poverty reduction at the national level which is indicative of broad- based growth.

    According to the 2007 Ghana Living Standard Survey (GLSS) Report, the nation's poverty rate fell from 52 per cent in 1992 to 29 per cent in 2006.

    Government has over the years formulated social protection programmes, such as the Savannah Accelerated Development Strategy (SADS), National Social Protection Strategy (NSPS),

    and Livelihood Empowerment Against Poverty (LEAP) to address the issue of poverty in the country.

    3.0 Purpose of the Loan

    The purpose of the loan is to:

    i . improve t a rge t ed soc i a l protection spending

    i i . i n c r e a s e a c c e s s t o condit ional cash transfers nationwide;

    iii. increase access to employment and cash-earning opportunities for the rural poor during agricultural off-season and;

    i v. Improve economic and social infrastructure.

    4.0 Project Component

    The project has five components namely: i. Rationalization of National Social Protection Policy (US$2.5 million)

    ii. Labour Intensive public works (US$56 million); iii. Livelihood Empowerment Against Poverty (LEAP) programme (US$ 20 million);

    iv Capacity building (US$ 4.1 million); and v Project management (US$6.5 million); and

    5.0 Terms and Conditions

    The terms of the credit are as follows:

    Credit amount -- SDR58.4 million (US$ 88.6 million equivalent)

    Interest rate -- Nil

    Grace period -- 10 years

    Repayment period -- 25 years

    Maturity period -- 35 years

    Service charge -- 0.75 per cent per annum withdrawn balance

    Commitment fee -- 0.5 per cent

    on unwith- drawn balance

    6.0 Justification

    The Ghana Social Opportunities Project (GSOP), if implemented, will address the weaknesses in the current social protection pragmatic framework.

    The project covers most of the poorest districts from the three northern regions as well as a few from the other seven regions. The project is, therefore, expected to go a long way in bridging the gap between the northern and southern sectors of Ghana and thereby helping the country in achieving the Millennium Development Goals.

    7.0 Observations

    The Committee observed that the counterpart contribution by Government towards this project is five hundred thousand Un i t ed S ta t e s do l l a r s

    (US$500,000.00).

    It was also observed that the total
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 5:35 p.m.


    employment generation from the labour intensive public works is estimated at between 23.8 million person days for an estimated 275,000 individuals and 7.7 million for 150,000 individuals.

    The Committee also noted that the criterion for selection of districts was based on:

    i. headcount poverty ranking;

    ii. shortage of infrastructure; and

    iii. lack of growth centres.

    The Committee noted further that the approval of sub-projects would be as follows:

    P r o j e c t s c o s t i n g l e s s t h a n GH¢50,000 -- approval by DAs

    P r o j e c t s c o s t i n g l e s s t h a n GH¢150,000 -- approval by RCCs Projec ts cos t ing more than GH¢150,000 -- approval by

    NPSC.

    The Committee observed that as part of the conditions of the credit and in accordance with Schedule 4 to the Agreement, the Government of Ghana is expected to make some annual budgetary allocations towards the Livelihood Empowerment Against Poverty (LEAP) Programme. (A copy of the said Schedule is attached to this Report as Appendix 1.)

    A list of beneficiary districts for the Labour Intensive Public Works (LIPW) is attached as Appendix 2. It was observed

    that these districts are already beneficiaries of the LEAP Programme.

    8.0 Conclusion

    The project, when implemented will help generate a range of economic benefits to households directly participating in LEAP and Labour Intensive Public Works (LIPW), with resultant increases in household incomes and consumption.

    It is also expected to reduce asset

    depletion among households in the “hungry season”.

    The Committee, taking into account

    the foregoing issues, recommends to the House to adopt this Report and approve by Resolution the Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of fifty-eight million, four hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR 58.4 million) [US$88.6 million equivalent] for the financing of the Ghana Social Opportunities Project (GSOP) in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution, sections 3 and 7 of the Loans Act, 1970 (Act 335) and the Standing Orders of the House.

    Respectfully submitted.
    Dr A. A. Osei (NPP -- Old Tafo) 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker., I beg to second the Motion numbered -- Mr Speaker, just a minute.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 5:35 p.m.
    Hon Ranking Member, item numbered 18.
    Dr. A. A. Osei 5:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this new project called Ghana Social Opportunities Project (GSOP) is a very important programme. It is in essence, an expanded LEAP combined with a new capital intensive project called the Labour Intensive Public Works Programme.
    6.05 P.M. APPENDIX I
    Mrs Akosua Frema Osei-Opare (NPP - Ayawaso West Wuogon) 6:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion on the Ghana Social Opportunities Project. Indeed, the Report has duly recognized
    initiatives over the years that are targeted at the very vulnerable in our society, including National Social Protection Strategy (CNSPS) and the Livelihood Empowerment Against Poverty (LEAP).
    Mr Speaker, in fact, let me first commend also the effort of government to beef up resources to address issues that are targeted at the poorest of the poor, without which people are not able to access opportunities within the system.
    In looking at the components of the project, I would like to make the following observations.
    While it is good to allocate US$20 million, I am of the view, given the projections in the NSPS for the cash transfers over the next five years, that the US$20 million given is really inadequate. So, government will really need to bring its own resources to beef up because the strategy is not about just giving money. It is an important component to give the basic source of livelihood to poor people so that things like labour-intensive work, other kinds of economic opportunities can then be realised. So, you cannot just overlook the importance of the cash transfer.
    Indeed, it has been proved by research -- and I am confident that, the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning has access to this information --that when you give cash transfers, it turns to improve the local economy because these are people who actually spend within their locality and therefore, the whole economic situation within the communities are improved. So, it is important to look at this aspect of the loan which is only US$20 million out of the bigger sum.
    You look at the public-intensive works. Indeed, these have been recognized as a complementary activity to giving cash
    Mr Clement K. Humado (NDC - Anlo) 6:15 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to support this Loan Agreement. Indeed, as the Chairman for the Poverty Reduction Committee, I am grateful that you have given me this opportunity.
    It is true that Ghana has been said to make some progress in poverty reduction since the 1990 base year, that poverty reduced from 52 per cent in 1992 to 29 per cent in 2006. However, Mr Speaker, we all know, coming from constituencies, that the poverty situation is still there.
    Especially, over the past three years that we had a global economic recession, as well as price escalation of food items,
    the poverty situation, I believe, has worsened from the 2006 figure. It is, therefore, gratifying that this Loan Agreement is being contracted for social protection programmes to be expanded to the various areas of the country that need it.
    I have argued that basing poverty reduction on regional statistics alone will not help us to reduce poverty any further. It is, therefore, gratifying that, this time round, they have based the poverty reduction strategy on districts and no more on regions.
    In fact, if you look closely at Appendix II, you will find that a number of districts have been named to benefit from the social protection programmes. In certain columns, the incidence of poverty has also been mentioned and allocations for every district have been put there. I hope that this is the beginning and as said by the Hon Member from the other side, in almost every district in Ghana, you can find poor people.
    So we hope that the resources under the Ministry of Employment and Social Welfare will be stretched to complement what is being provided in this Loan Agreement, so that the benefits of the social protection programmes is spread as a nation, wide programme.
    Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the Loan Agreement.
    Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang (NPP - New Juaben North) 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I support in total this project. Unfortunately, Eastern Region has its share of poverty but we are only covered with one district.
    Mr Speaker, poverty in the urban areas sometimes can be more excruciating than poverty in the rural areas, so we need to take due cognizance of it.
    I note from the Report also on page 2,
    that by the 2007 Ghana Living Standards Report, the nation's poverty has fallen from 52 per cent to 29 per cent and whenever we say this, it is always challenged but it is here in the paper.
    Again it says: “The last nine years, the average GDP Growth was 5.6 per cent.”
    I think it will be higher because in 2008, it was 7.3 per cent. These significant economic growth rates have translated into substantial poverty reduction at the national level and it is indicative of broad- based growth. This is what we have been saying all along, that there has been growth, the economy is bigger and that indeed, poverty has reduced. And we were always challenged that it was not true.
    But this document produced by the Committee amply demonstrates that indeed, we have reduced poverty from 52 per cent to 29 per cent, which is a major achievement, as well as the growth in the last couple of 9 years which has also been a very major, major achievement.
    With those words and that track recognition, I beg to support the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    RESOLUTION 6:25 p.m.
    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 6:25 p.m.
    Mr James K. Avedzi 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Avoka 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, at this stage, I will humbly request that we do item 4 (viii) at page 3. We just laid the Paper in respect of the STX and then take the -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:25 p.m.
    What number?
    Mr Avoka 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, item 4 (viii).
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:25 p.m.
    Item 4 (viii)? Very well, Chairman of the Committee.
    PAPERS 6:25 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:25 p.m.
    Hon Members, we are deferring (ix). Majority Leader, for today, we are deferring item 4 (ix).
    Mr Avoka 6:25 p.m.
    That is so, Mr Speaker. So, we will now take Motion numbered 11 on page 8.
    MOTIONS 6:25 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee (Mr James K. Avedzi) 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80 (1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Additional Financing Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR46.2 million (US$70.0 million equivalent) for the Ghana Energy Development and Access Project (GEDAP) may be moved today.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Report of the Finance Committee on the Additional Financing
    Agreement between GOG and IDA for GEDAP
    Mr James K. Avedzi 6:25 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Additional Financing Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of SDR 46.2 million (US$70.0 million equivalent) for the Ghana Energy Development and Access Project (GEDAP).
    1.0 Introduction
    The Credit Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Association (IDA) for an amount of forty-six million two hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR46.2 million) [ US$70.0 million equivalent] for the Ghana Energy Development and Access Project (GEDAP) on behalf of the Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG) was laid in the House on Monday, 26th July, 2010 in accordance with article 181 of the 1992 Constitution.
    Pursuant to Order 171 (1) of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report.
    The Committee subsequently met and considered the Agreement with the Deputy Minister for Energy, Hon Inusah A. B. Fuseini, the Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon Seth Terkpeh, and officials from the Ministries of Energy and Finance and Economic Planning, and hereby presents this Report.
    2.0 Backgrond
    T h e a d d i t i o n a l f i n a n c i n g o f US$70million for the Ghana Energy Development and Access Project (GEDAP) was approved by the Board of the World Bank on 26th July, 2007 and was confirmed effective 6th December, 2007
    with a closing date of 30th November, 2012 and the Financing Agreement between the IDA and the GoG also signed on 7th August, 2007.
    GEDAP's development objective is to improve the operational efficiency of electricity distribution system and increase the population's access to electricity, and also to help the country transit to a low- carbon economy through the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.
    The project has four components:
    Sector and institutional capacity strengthening;
    E l e c t r i c i t y d i s t r i b u t i o n improvement;
    Electricity access and renewable Energy; and
    Expanded capacity for electricity distribution.
    The total cost of the project is estimated at US$ 210.6 million.
    3.0 Purpose of the Loan
    The purpose of the loan is to obtain additional financing for the implementation of the expanded activities under the Ghana Energy Developing and Access Project (GEDAP) in order to scale up the project's impact and effectiveness.
    4.0 Terms and Conditions of Credit
    The terms and conditions of the credit are as follows:

    Interest rate -- Nil

    Grace period -- 10 years

    Repayment period -- 25 years
    ANNEX A 6:25 p.m.
    Dr Matthew O. Prempeh (NPP - Manhyia) 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think my stand on some of these issues is very well known. I must commend the ECG for trying as hard as possible to improve the situation in Kumasi and its environs. Mr. Speaker, I totally support this project and this funding for ECG to improve. But Mr. Speaker, in supporting it, I would just

    like to draw your attention to two things.

    On this project, we are told that there is going to be a construction of bulk supply point in Nungua and that is going to cost 8.6 billion. Mr. Speaker, we are told there is going to be a second bulk supply point at the smelter area that is going to cost 3.18 billion; Mr Speaker, that is my problem. How many bulk supply points are going to be constructed in Accra?

    In 2006, this House approved money for a third bulk supply point in Accra that has not still begun. So, in approving monies for ECG and for the energy sector, Mr. Speaker, I think Parliament should find a way of causing accountability. That is all I am saying. We need more money invested in the energy sector but accountability is very important.

    Question put and motion agreed to.
    RESOLUTIONS 6:35 p.m.
    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 6:35 p.m.
    HERE- BY RESOLVES AS 6:35 p.m.
    MrJames K. Avedzi 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr Avoka 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if my Hon Colleagues would oblige to reduce our burden for tomorrow, we can just do Motion number 20, I beg you. We would do that one and then close - [Interruption] - I beg you; number 20 -- [Interruption] - the last one.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes, the spirit is willing but the flesh really, is weak, if we are to indulge the Hon Majority Leader.
    Mr Speaker, I believe one would not be wrong in making an observation. Apart from the Hon Minister for Water Resources, Works and Housing and Hon E. T. Mensah, the Hon Minister for Employment and Social Welfare, all the Ministers whom the loans relate to are not here. Mr Speaker, we are stretching ourselves so much and they are not here.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:35 p.m.
    Hon Minority Leader, I agree with you but for my sake. Today, the Hon Member for Sekondi was feeling for me. So, for my sake, I am pleading that we take it.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:35 p.m.
    That is so. But Mr. Speaker, before I sit down, let me also -
    Mr. First Deputy Speaker 6:35 p.m.
    Hon Members, the last item for today -
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, before I resume my seat, the -
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:35 p.m.
    Hon Members, the Hon Minority Leader is on the floor, let us hear him. The background noise is too much.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as I said, before resuming my seat, let me
    appeal -- because we know that certain Reports were laid early in the morning; they have not been distributed yet. There is this other last one that has been laid, that is the STX, and it has not been distributed. May I appeal that we have them distributed - all those that have been laid - so that we may read them overnight, so we come back prepared.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:35 p.m.
    I direct accordingly that all the Reports that have been laid should be distributed to Hon Members.
    MOTIONS 6:35 p.m.
    Mr James K. Avedzi 6:35 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, that notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 80 (1) which require that no Motion shall be debated until at least forty-eight hours have elapsed between the date on which notice of the Motion is given and the date on which the Motion is moved, the Motion for the adoption of the Report of the Finance Committee on the Financing Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Asso- ciation (IDA) of the World Bank Group for an amount of SDR6.6 million (US$10.0 million equivalent) to support the implementation of the Third Natural Resources and Environmental Governance Development Policy Operation (NREG- DPO III) may be moved today.
    Dr A. A. Osei 6:35 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Report of the Finance Committee on GOG/ IDA Financing Agreement
    for NREG-DPO III
    Chairman of the Committee(Mr James K. Avedzi) 6:35 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg move, that this Honourable House adopts the Report of the Finance Committee on the Financing Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Asso- ciation (IDA) of the World Bank Group for an amount of SDR6.6 million (US$10.0 million equivalent) to support the implementation of the Third Natural Resources and Environmental Governance Development Policy Operation (NREG-
    DPO III ).
    Mr Speaker, I present your Committee's Report.
    1.0 Introduction
    Mr Speaker, the Financing Agreement between the Government of Ghana and the International Development Asso- ciation (IDA) of the World Bank Group for an amount of six million, six hundred thousand Special Drawing Rights (SDR 6.6 million) [US$ 10.0 million equivalent] to support the implementation of the Third Natural Resources and Environmental Governance Development Policy Operation (NREG-DPO III) was laid in the House on Monday, 26th July, 2010 in accordance with article 181 of the Constitution of the Republic of Ghana. Pursuant to Order 171 (1) of the Standing Orders of the House, the Agreement was referred to the Finance Committee for consideration and report.
    The Committee subsequently met and considered the Agreement with the Deputy Minister for Lands and Natural Resources, Hon Henry Ford Kamel, the Deputy
    Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, Hon Seth Terkpeh, and officials from the Ministries of Lands and Natural Resources and Finance and Economic Planning respectively and hereby presents this Report.
    2.0 Background
    The Natural Resources and Envi- ronmental Governance (NREG) pro- gramme is to address governance issues in the forestry and mining sectors and to improve environmental management, forestry, wildlife and mining are currently the key to Ghana's economy and large numbers of people depend on the sector for livelihood. About 10 per cent of the country's GDP is lost annually through unsustainable management of the country's natural resources and through environmental health costs related to water supply and sanitation.
    3.0 Purpose of the Loan
    The purpose of the loan is to provide funding to support GoG reform efforts in the sectors of forestry and wildlife, mining and environmental protection, for sustainable growth and development. 4.0 Project Component
    The project has three components, namely:
    i. Forestry and Wildlife;
    ii. Mining; and
    iii. Environmental protection.
    5.0 Terms and Conditions of the Credit
    The terms and conditions of the credit are as follows:
    Credit amount -- SDR6.6million
  • [US$10.0 million equivalent] Interest rate -- Nil Grace period -- 10 years Repayment period -- 25 years Maturity period -- 35 years Service charge -- 0.75 per cent per annum withdrawn credit amount Commitment fee -- 0.5 per cent per annum unwithdrawn balance 6.0 Justification Strengthening environmental go- vernance is going to ensure that natural resources contribute to greater wealth and sustainable economic growth. There will be improvement in the management of government reve- nues and finances in the forestry and mining sectors; reduction in illegal logging and social conflict in forestry and mining communities. It will provide a framework for engagement of the World Bank in Ghana's natural resources gover- nance reforms programme aiming at achieving greater impact from the sector on the economy. 7.0 Observations and Recommendations The Committee observed that the Policy Reforms and Actions of the Ministry were implemented under the Forestry Sector in 2009. Four private commercial companies involved in the harvesting, processing and export of
    • Dr A. A. Osei (NPP-- Old Tafo) 6:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion numbered 21 on page 13 of the Order Paper.
    Mr Speaker, this loan facility from the
    World Bank on the Natural Resources and Environmental Governance Development Policy is something that has been going on. It has been part of the MDPS Programme and in particular, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources is being given an opportunity to make sure that all the timber that is being exported to the EU, passes some minimum standards through what is known as the Voluntary Partnership Programme (VPP). So, we are approving a loan to assist the capacity of the Ministry to ensure compliance.
    Otherwise, our timber that is going there cannot go there. So, it is not a new programme. But we must say that, it is one of those programmes that have some conditionalities. So, I want to urge the Hon Minister that they ought to keep their mind on those prior actions that need to be taken to ensure that the money will be disbursed.
    Question proposed.
    Mr Andrews Adjei-Yeboah (NPP
    - Tano South): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.
    Mr Speaker, the Motion before us and
    the facility that is being sourced, like the Hon Ranking Member said, is in support of an ongoing programme for the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, of which I played a very important role in the negotiations.
    Mr Speaker, like the Hon Ranking
    Member said, for the forestry sector, EU is very particular about what actually goes on as far as the harvesting and the transportation of timber from our forests are concerned.
    Prof. Mike A. Oquaye 6:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if my Hon good Friend's name has been spelt wrongly, he is very much entitled to point it out. But if he goes about making such comments about the name “Kamarl” he may be looking for trouble for us. It is a reputable Indian name, borne by many serious-minded respected Indians. Some of them are even resident now in this country. He should please, not go that way.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:45 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister, kindly conclude.
    Mr Kamel 6:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my name is “Henry Ford Kamel”; my name is not “Kamal”, so this is what I want corrected.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:45 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Minister, the point being made is that if your name has not been properly
    spelt, correct it and let us move forward.
    Alhaji Sumani Abukari 6:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to make a further correction. He may be right in saying that that is not how his name is spelt; that is it. I agree with him that that is not how his name may be spelt but the name “Kamal” is not what he is talking about. The name “Kamal” is a proper Islamic name. The full name is “Kamaldeen”, but some people choose to call it “Kamal”. So, if it is wrongly spelt for him, it refers to an Islamic name “Kamal”, not to the instrument he is talking about. So that is not his name, but this is a name borne by Moslems.
    Prof Oquaye 6:45 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my Hon good Friend on the other side may know about some Moslem interpretation but I am talking about the Hindu name “Kamarl” and he better not go that way.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:45 p.m.
    Hon Second Deputy Speaker, I thought he was supporting you from a different angle? He was supporting you from the Moslem perspective and you were speaking from the Hindu perspective.
    Hon Member, I think you have finished with your contribution.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    RESOLUTIONS 6:55 p.m.
    THIS HONOURABLE HOUSE 6:55 p.m.
    HERE- BY RESOLVES AS 6:55 p.m.
    Mr James K. Avedzi 6:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I second the Motion.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Resolved accordingly.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, that brings us to the end of today's proceedings.
    Mr Avoka 6:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to take the opportunity to sincerely thank you, Mr Speaker, and your staff and all Hon Members for their hard work, their industry and their resilience. I pray that if we are able to co-operate and work hard like this tomorrow, we may not even need to be here after mid-day or thereabout. So I want to thank you again and assure you that tomorrow, everybody will be happy.
    Thank you.
    Mr Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 6:55 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not think that I have to add anything to what the Majority Leader has said.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 6:55 p.m.
    Hon Members, on that note, the House stands adjourned till tomorrow at 10 o'clock in the forenoon.
    ADJOURNMENT 6:55 p.m.
  • The House was adjourned at 6.57 p.m. till Tuesday, 3rd August, 2010 at 10.00 a.m.