Debates of 27 Jun 2013

MR SPEAKER
PRAYERS 11:20 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Members, Correc- tion of the Votes and Proceedings of Wednesday, 26th June, 2013.
Page 1…7 --
Mr Frederick Opare-Ansah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, number 35, on page 7, I have been listed as absent. The same Votes and Proceedings records me as having proposed an amendment, to which a Question was put on and agreed. So, I was wondering --
Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Member, I saw you in the Chamber yesterday, so, the Table Office to take note.
Page 8…13 --
Mr Patrick Y. Boamah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, sorry to take you back to page 9 on the Resolution, paragraph (4), the last paragraph -- “One Billion United States dollars (US$1,000 million.)” I would want some clarification on that.
Dr Anthony A Osei 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on the same page, we did not resolve for the Minister to issue a “Second”; that is not what we are asking him to do. We are asking him to issue a bond for US$1,000 million. What is that “Second” there
Mr Opare-Ansah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, what was contained in the Resolution?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
A “Second International Sovereign Bond …” We did not ask the Hon Minister to issue a “Second”.
This is a new Parliament. We do not know about the first --
An Hon Members 11:20 a.m.
That was the title.
Dr A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
But it is wrong. That is why I am asking us to look at it carefully. This is a new Parliament --
Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Members, this was what we resolved yesterday. As the Ranking Member, you should have drawn our attention to it. Whichever way you look at it, if you want to look at it as a nation, we had the first Eurobond and this is the second -- I agree with you because, what is important is not the “Second” but it is the going to the Bonds market. You should have drawn our attention to it yesterday, but that was what we resolved.
Hon Member for Old Tafo, do you have the Order Paper of yesterday with you?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
This one is for Tuesday; I was looking for the one for yesterday. Mr Speaker, if that is what we resolved and we are correcting proceedings --Maybe, we would have to look at it some other time.
Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Yes, both sides also have a point. As a nation, it is the “Second” The “first” was the very first one. But the “Second” does not really -- You should have drawn our attention to it yesterday for us to take a look at it.
Mr James K. Avedzi 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think as you have rightly said, as a nation, this is the second time we are going to the market to borrow. So, the reminder that this is the second time we are going to borrow is not the real issue. This issue is that we are allowing the Hon Minister to go to the market and raise the bond to the tune of one billion United States dollars. But for purposes of the reminder, it does not change anything; we should maintain it. It does not make any difference.
Mrs Gifty E. Kusi 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, so, if we are going for the hundredth time, are we going to put it there like that? I do not think we should set this precedent. If it is a mistake, it is a mistake and we should change it. If the third one comes, we would put it that way and if the fourth one comes, we would--
Mr Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Members, what we resolved yesterday is what the Table Office has captured in the Votes and Proceedings. If the House thinks that we should remove the “Second”, that is a totally different matter. But it cannot be taken under Correction of Votes and Proceedings because this was what we resolved to do.
Page 12, 13 --
Maj. Derek Oduro (retd): Mr Speaker, I am sorry to take you back to page 5, number 176 -- “Odoro, Derek Yaw (Maj.[Rtd]).” On a number of occasions, I have corrected this anomaly. “Yaw” is not part of my name in Parliament here even though I was born on a Thursday. Each time I got this error corrected -- [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker, that is the question that you asked the other day I brought this issue up, whether “Yaw” was not my name and I said that was my name but it is not my documented name in Parliament.
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Well, the Table Office has taken note. But what is surprising is the fact that you were born on Thursday?
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
The Table Office should look at the names submitted by the Electoral Commission and amend them accordingly to reflect his name as submitted by the Electoral Commission.
Page 13 … 15 --
Mr Avedzi 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, page 15, item number 25 -- This amendment was proposed by the Hon Chairman, the “Question was proposed: Debate arising. Debate deferred”.
I had expected that we would have clause 25 as one of the amendments in today's Order Paper. But if you go to page 3 of the Order Paper, from clause 7, you go to clause 26. So, I would like to know what happened.
Alhaji Amadu B. Sorogho 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, after adjournment, some Hon Members went for winnowing at the end of which it was agreed that the amendment which stood in the name of the Chairman should be withdraw. This is because it was not necessary.
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Members, I think the point he has raised are in order. Our Votes and Proceedings are saying that we have deferred this matter. You do not go to winnowing and change something that the House has deferred. So, it is right that the Hon Member has drawn our attention to it. You have to come and announce on the floor that you are withdrawing your amendment.
Alhaji Sorogho 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, precisely so. I think it was during the typing that something went wrong, and it would be corrected.
Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 11:30 a.m.
I had amendments on some of the clauses that did not appear. They had been advertised for three to four days. I was not at the winnowing yesterday and my amendments were winnowed -- [Interrup- tion] -- Briefly; before we started discussions --
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Members, let us concentrate on the Votes and Proceedings.
Mrs Kusi 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman is saying that it was a typing mistake. He also said that he asked them to withdraw it; which is which? Whatever he is saying, I do not know. I do not want to say he is not saying the truth because he said -- [Interruption.]
Alhaji Sorogho 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I thought that my Hon Sister had found a nice way of saying that I am not telling the truth.
Yes, I would want to stand by the second one, that it was an oversight from the -- So, we will correct it. When we get there, we will propose that amendment, Mr Speaker.
Mrs Kusi 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am not his sister here. My mother's children -- I do not know the line where he is -- We are all Hon Colleagues here, please. [Hear! Hear!]
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Members, we are on Votes and Proceedings.
Page 16…17--
Hon Members, the Votes and Proceedings of Wednesday, 26th June, 2013 as corrected, are hereby adopted as the true record of proceedings.
Hon Members, we do not have any Official Report for correction today.
Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Leadership of Parliament has taken notice of some publications both in the print and electronic media regarding the Public Accounts Committee writing to organisations that they are supposed to play oversight over, seeking financial support to carry out their work - - [Inter-ruption.]
Dr A. A. Osei 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I think this matter may be better held in a Closed Sitting.
If it is before Leadership and they are investigating it, I think it is all right. But it involves the rights of a committee of Parliament and it may have some serious implications.
So, I crave the indulgence of the Leadership --
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Member for Old Tafo, this morning, we had a long discussion with the Leadership of both sides of the House on this matter and that
is why we delayed. The position that was taken was that the Hon Leaders from both sides make a brief comment on the floor of the House on this matter.
I must say that I have taken a very serious view of the publications in the media. Whether they are true or not, is a different matter. But I believe that the best regulation is self-regulation.
Dr A. A. Osei 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I totally agree with you. I think that because --
Mr Speaker 11:30 a.m.
So; I do not expect them to go beyond the ordinary. They are supposed to -- So, let us listen to him.
Alhaji Muntaka 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if my Hon Colleague had waited to listen to what I was going to say, he would have realised that it would have been necessary, but all the same --
The publication that is going round is of great concern to us and we would want to crave your indulgence for the Leadership to look into the veracity of whether some letters have been written and under what circumstances they were written.
But the unfortunate situation is that, Mr Speaker, the leadership of the Public Accounts Committee are currently not within the jurisdiction, and we are promising you that we are going to engage them to listen to their side and report to you appropriately. We would crave your indulgence for you to allow the Leadership to take this step first and, probably, report, so that if there is the need for us to do anything, then you may direct.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Dominic B. A. Nitiwul 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the issue raised by the Hon Majority Chief Whip and Acting Leader on this side of the House, like you rightly said, was discussed this morning, and as he promised, the matter has now been brought to the attention of Leadership. We are going to deal with it very seriously and then get back to you on this very matter.
But it is a warning to all Hon Members of Parliament (MPs) because if you deal with a company or an individual and the matter is leaked, it is a very serious matter.
We hope to report to you and take a serious view on it, Mr Speaker.
Dr A. A. Osei 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think that I agree with you. Self-regulation is good, but we must be seen to be equitable. This is because they are matters that have come into the Papers. I do not want to mention names, but Leadership did not advert their minds to them; perhaps, they could. So, if we start setting precedents like that, then we are going on a path -- that we have to be consistent.
As I said, I do not want to mention examples. That is why I thought that we should discuss it in the Committee of the Whole, so that we set the precedent. This is because you have opened the room -- anytime there is a publication, for an Hon Member to come on the floor and get into matters that are best discussed among ourselves --
We should be seen to be equitable. That is why I thought that even though you have discussed it deeply, we have to be cautious. This is because, right now, the precedent has been set. And any Hon Member, including myself, if I see any publication, I would want us to go the same way.
I would expect Leadership to pro- nounce on it --
Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Member, the truth or otherwise of the publication is a different matter. That is why the Hon Majority Chief Whip indicated that the leaders of the Committee are not in the jurisdiction, so they will wait for them. When they come, they will do the necessary consultation and then --
Dr A. A. Osei 11:40 a.m.
I am referring to the forum, especially because we do not know the veracity or otherwise --
Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Member, I have even taken the view, and I want to tell Hon Members -- I have taken the view that the proper committee of the House that handles these matters is the Privileges Committee.
I have drawn the Leadership's attention to it, that I want to refer this matter to the Privileges Committee to look into it. But the Leaders said “No, the leadership of the Committee are not available now, so, let us wait for them.” They are the Leaders of the House and I work with them; they assist me in running the House. They said they would go into the matter and report.
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I hope this would not be setting a precedent. However, occasions come, and as a House, we need to take the opportunity to take certain actions.
Mr Speaker, I am sure that whatever it is, we may be doing a lot of things as a House, as committees, as individual Hon Members of Parliament (MPs), which we may never consider to be inappropriate. This is because, we know situations where committees may even write to Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) for support.

We are having oversight of them. But gradually, we are moving away because we are allocating resources to committees.

So, Mr Speaker, I believe that while the Leadership has undertaken to look into the matter, this matter would not be considered in isolation, but may form part of a broad outlook that would be taken in respect of the Code of Conduct. That is also important.

So, I am appealing to the Leadership through Mr Speaker, that this should not be treated as an individual isolated matter, but in the context of how, as a House, in committees, we relate to others, and then we would be making progress as a House.

I thank you for your indulgence, Mr Speaker.
Mr David T. Assumeng 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee and I am actually at a loss. I do not know where he is coming from. So, if he can tell us the source of the issue that he has just raised, for us to address our minds to it appropriately.
Prof Y. George A. Gyan-Baffour 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am really not excited about what is going on here.
I think the practice in this House is that when an Hon Member is not here, we do not discuss the Hon Member. In fact, the Hon Chief Whip said that this Committee is out of the jurisdiction. Why do we not wait for them to come before bringing the issue to the floor? Now, they are not here and we are discussing an issue that is relating to the Committee.
I think we should not allow that to happen again. They have to be here before we can talk about them. Now, they are somewhere in Tamale or somewhere -- and we are talking about them when they are not around. How do they --
Mr Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Members, I thought that all of us should take a cue from the points made by the Hon Member for Sekondi, Papa Owusu-Ankomah.
Hon Members, you may recall that at our post-budget workshop at Koforidua, I did make some comments. I believe it is in the same spirit that the Hon Member for Sekondi also made his comment, that we should not look at it in isolation.
We must continue to improve upon our practices and procedures here, and this, generally, calls for having a Code of Conduct.
I gave the floor to one or two Hon Members just because they might help us guide the House. They are not discussing any matter here at all. But once you give the floor to one Hon Member, when another Hon Member gets up, you must give the floor to him also to balance the equation. That is why when the Hon Member for Old Tafo was on his feet, I recognised him because he had already raised a preliminary objection and I thought that I should also give the floor to him.
We are not discussing the matter at all. They are waiting for the leadership of the Committee to be in and then we would discuss it. It is not about any individual. It is about committees of the House and their practices.
Hon Members, we should end it there.
Hon Members, I have admitted one Statement for today, which stands in the name of the Hon Member for Shai/ Osudoku.
STATEMENTS 11:40 a.m.
Mr David T. Assumeng (NDC -- Shai- Osudoku) 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement on the upsurge of land guards in the country.
Mr Speaker, the upsurge of the phenomenon of land guards is becoming an issue of grave concern to many people in the country.
Land guards are a group of able-bodied youngmen and sometimes women engaged to protect landed property. They are either trained or untrained to carry all manner of weapons including guns, cutlasses, clubs and other offensive weapons during their operations.
Mr Speaker, the issue is becoming a threat to the nation and the earlier it is nipped in the bud, the better, due to the militancy of their operations.
In the Greater Accra Region, the operations of land guards have reached an alarming proportion.
Mr Speaker, the Shai-Osudoku District was in the news recently as communities like Abonya, Adjumadjan, Sota, Odumse, Fiakonya, Asebi, among others, were attacked by land guards who were recruited to provide security for lands in the area, resulting in injuries, death and destruction of property.
In such situations, women and children suffer the most. Abonya, for instance, was deserted for almost a week until the District Security Committee (DISEC) intervened.
Mr Speaker, may I commend the Dodowa Police Command for their proactiveness. I would like to use this opportunity to request for logistical support to assist them since the area is becoming a flash point for the operations of both land guards and armed robbers.
Mr Speaker, punitive sanctions must be taken to curb the action of land guards before it degenerates into an uncontroll- able state like the activities of Fulani herdsmen in the country.
Mr Pele Abuga (NDC -- Chiana/ Paga) 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Statement just made by the Hon Member is on a very serious issue that he has raised.
The land guard phenomenon has to be looked at more comprehensively as it relates to issues of land ownership, the ways lands are distributed and the way the ownership is moved from one person to the other, at times in violation of the laws of this country.
Mr Speaker, I would just give an example. At Oyibi, where I visited a few days ago, the settlers there indicated that these land guards have constituted themselves into a kind of criminal gang and they hold the whole area to ransom, to such an extent that they can boldly walk into any house, fire warning shots and take whatever property they want away. Various repeated reports at the police station have yielded no result.
So I think that while we are talking about the land guards, we should also be looking at the phenomenon of land acquisition, how the landowners themselves give out these lands and the

relationship between them and the land - guards. This is because to be a successful land guard, I think that they co-operate in terms of training, in terms of the kinds of weapons they carry, their attitude towards people and so forth.

So, in time, if this phenomenon is not checked, we are indirectly training militants, as he indicated in his Statement. The use to which these militants would be put, whether they would be exclusively used for the purposes of controlling land ownership or they would be deplored in other areas such as stealing, or even fighting, is one thing that can pose a grave danger to this society. So, I think that the issue of land guards should be looked at.

While we cannot suggest immediate answers, I think there has to be some legislation that controls the activities of these land guards and the punitive measures that should be taken should be implemented in a way that will discourage landowners from employing these young men who are not employed and who will not hesitate to use their strength, as a group and their co-operation to do other illegal things.
Mrs Gifty E. Kusi (NPP -- Tarkwa- Nsuaem) 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to the Statement on the floor.
Mr Speaker, as my Hon Colleague said, this issue should be really looked into to avoid the various strives that have been going on among family members. We know that families own land, from time immemorial. And leadership of families is supposed to be trustees of these lands. Our social organisation, our kinship system, indicate succession to this family leadership.
When families are in conflict, when, maybe, two families jointly own a piece of land, and there is a misunderstanding or something, one family may sell the land.
The other family may say, “I am not there and therefore, I was not part of the arrangement. Therefore, I think that I need to be part of the enjoyment.” That family will bring land guards to guard the land, so that the other family members who sold the land may not have access to the land.
Mr Speaker, my information is that the National Archives have a history of all the tribes in Ghana, leadership succession and everything. I think that the Ministries of Chieftaincy and Traditional Affairs and Tourism, Culture and Creative Arts should set up a joint committee -- This is because most of these issues are resolved with committees.
So, Mr Speaker, if they collaborate and work together, put up a committee that will look into this, go to the archives, find the history of all these lands that we have dispute over, so that in the end we will resolve this issue, then the issue of land guards can be abolished for Ghanaians, especially, those of us in Greater-Accra
-- 11:50 a.m.
Mr Bright E. K. Demordzi (NDC -- Bortianor-Ngleshie Amanfro) 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.
I would like to associate myself with the Statement.
Honestly speaking, this issue of land guards is a major problem in my constituency. Issues regarding land acquisition, and documentation are the major causes of some of these land guard problems.
It is important that State institutions like the Lands Commission, Land Valuation Board, and all the institutions involved in ensuring that the procedures that are involved in land acquisition are quickly streamlined, such that the period for documentation of individual lands can be such that within a short period of time, people can have documents on their properties. I think that is the crux of the matter.
The issue is that when people acquire lands, the period that they use to document their land, is so long that sometimes it results in duplications. They sell these lands to other people.
A case in point is that in my consti- tuency, when you want to develop your property, there is a boundary dispute. Land guards take advantage of boundary disputes to cause mayhem in a lot of communities in my constituency. The boundary dispute is a phenomenon that is worrying, especially in, Greater Accra. If you take Ga South and Effutu-Senya in the Central Region, there is a continuous fight between these two Assemblies just because of boundary dispute Land guards take advantage of this situation and cause mayhem in these communities.
It is my humble appeal to the authori- ties concerned, especially the Land Valuation Board, Ministry of the Interior, to ensure that the numerous boundary disputes that we have in this country can be resolved.
Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Mr Kofi Frimpong (NPP -- Kwabre East) 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your indulgence.
Mr Speaker, the issue of land guards has been with us for quite a long time. I would say that the Statement is long overdue because we can no longer distinguish between criminals in our society and land guards. From the Statement, land guards can go about as criminals; move into people's houses, steal their things, and they are regarded as land guards, and they are dealt with quite differently from criminals. When we see an armed robber -- The Police will deal with an armed robber quite differently from how he will deal with a land guard.
So, Mr Speaker, my concern is that, here again, we are talking about an issue which is very, very important to the community in which we live. After talking about this in Parliament, what happens? After debating this, Hon Members saying very nice things about this, making Statements, are we here for only our constituents to see us talking or what happens?
The other time, I urged the House that anytime there is such a Statement, let us bring the Hon Ministers here, so that they will tell us, in their contribution, the actions they want to take and not to come here and talk about it and that is the end.
A lot of things have been said about how these land guards are operating and what brings this about? Yes, it is true. The acquisition of land, people selling one parcel of land to several people, and if you want to maintain your ownership, then you would have to employ the services of land guards -- protector. Why should that happen?
I think that something must be done. Otherwise, criminals and armed robbers are going to operate under the guise of land guards and I do not think that will augur well for us.

So, my appeal again here is that, there must be Hon Ministers around when such Statements are made on the floor of Parliament. Otherwise, we reduce the House of Parliament here or the Chamber into a mere talk-shop, so that we come and talk and there is no action taken on the fine things that we say about this.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the Statement made by my good Friend on the other side.
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Members, I would take the last two contributions from the Hon Members for Keta and Assin Central.
Mr Richard M. Quashigah (NDC -- Keta) noon
Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.
Mr Speaker, I think the issue of land guards is a very, very crucial and disturbing one, disturbing b ecause as has been alluded to by Hon Members who spoke earlier, it is breeding, to a large extent, criminal activities in this country. Often times, land guard issues are treated, not with the toughness that one would expect, as would be the case with armed robbers and other similar vices.
What sometimes bothers me a lot is the fact that when somebody sells a piece of land to two, three people, we do not seem to take action against the one who sold the land to a number of people and those who bought the land would now have to struggle, to employ land guards, to protect the land because they have invested money into it.
I think that it is time that, to a large extent, those who sell the lands to different people, should be brought to book and I think that if that is done, to a large extent, we would be addressing the issues.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr Ken O. Agyapong (NPP -- Assin Central) noon
Mr Speaker, I rise to contribute to the Statement made by my Hon Colleague.
This land guard issue is becoming a serious problem that we need to address. If we sit here as Members of Parliament, discuss this issue and nothing is done about it, I am afraid, tomorrow, we will come back with another Statement.
What is happening in this country is that if you buy a land from party A, you take the documents to the Lands Commission to do a search, you will find that party A is duly registered. When you start your project, within a month, party B will also come with documents. When you go to the Lands Commission and do a search, he is also registered. So, the issue is not only talking here.
It boils down to what I said yesterday -- the civil servants; how they are able to register one land for two, three people. This is where the land guards come in because if I buy a property and it is duly registered, and my Hon Colleague also comes with his documents and he is also duly registered at Lands Commission, who made that mistake? I will be forced to go and protect my land and therefore, I will fall on the land guards. I am not finding any excuses for them.
rose
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Member for Bekwai, do you have a point of order?
Mr Osei-Owusu noon
That is so, Mr Speaker.
The Hon Member for Assin Central is grossly misleading the House.
The submission that lawyers knock the heads of parties against each other is grossly misleading. Lawyers do not go to court; clients engage them, so, they only go and tell the story of clients, the parties, the litigants on their behalf -- they are the only persons trained to do so. If you fight your fight and you engage me to make your case out for you, I am not hitting your head against the other.
So, Mr Speaker, I think that submission is grossly misleading and should be withdrawn.
Mr Agyapong noon
Mr Speaker, I said “some lawyers”. But I still maintain that even if your client comes to you and tells you a lie, the onus has on you --
Mr Speaker noon
Did you go to court with your lawyer? [Laughter.]
Mr Agyapong noon
Precisely so, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker noon
Did you tell him the truth? [Laughter]
Mr Agyapong noon
Yes, I did. [Laughter.]
Mr Speaker, we need to address all these issues and how a case is handled by the court itself, is also an issue that we have to look into. Sometimes, it is ten years. You have paid your money; this litigation will get your money stuck for so many years. You could have used it
rose
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Member, do you have a point of order?
Mr Francis K. Arthur noon
Mr Speaker, I have a point of order because I am the Chairman for the Committee on Defence and Interior and to my knowledge, the Ghana Police Service do not supply armed robbers or land guards or whatever with ammunitions. So, the statement is misleading.
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Member, what is misleading?
Mr F. K. Arthur noon
Mr Speaker, he said the police have been supplying --
Mr Speaker noon
Have you not heard that some security officers supply arms to criminals? If you say, not all of them, I will agree with you. But there are cases where people are arrested and they trace it to our security forces.
Mr F. K. Arthur noon
Mr Speaker, he made a general statement that the Ghana Police Service have been supplying them. If he had even limited it, good, but he made a general statement that police have been supplying them. That is why I said it is misleading and he has to reframe his statement.
Mr Agyapong noon
Mr Speaker, I will still sit on the fence, in the sense that if there is an element of truth that one police officer supplied weapons to the land guards, I can say that it is the Police, because he is a police officer --
Mr Speaker noon
Some of them. Not all of them.
Mr Agyapong noon
Yes, not all of them. I agree. So, I am surprised the Hon Chairman of the Committee on Defence and Interior --
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Member, conclude.
Mr Agyapong noon
My Hon Colleague, the Hon Chairman of the Committee on Defence and Interior should be interested in calling the police or the security forces to caution them about this issue. It is a serious issue that we are discussing here.
So, all I will say on the land guards issue, before we tackle them, we need to clean the House and these are the areas we have to tackle before we will have the courage to deal with the land guards.
With these few words, I support the Statement by my Hon Colleague.
Mr Speaker noon
Hon Members, that brings us to the end of Statements.
We now move to the Consideration Stage of the Ghana Investment Promotion Centre Bill, 2013.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:10 p.m.
STAGE 12:10 p.m.
  • [Resumption of debate from 26/06/ 2013]
    • Dr A. A. Osei 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we are at the Consideration Stage and the Chairman and the Hon Minister are not here. Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence that this House should be suspended to find out why they are not here. [Interruption.] We have been sitting here for two hours and they are now coming.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Clause 26 --
    Chairman of the Committee (Alhaji Amadu B. Sorogho) 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we would beg that we go back to clause 5. This is because we had clauses 5 and 6 and we have had a meeting with Hon W. O. Boafo. So, we can quickly go through that one.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, I have called clause 26.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 26 is deferred for more consultation.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Is it only clause 26?
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clauses 26, 27 and 28 because they relate, so that we move straight to --
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, this is a major policy area. The Hon Member for Sekondi keeps on saying that it is important that we get the exact policy behind some of these things. They are clear policy areas and therefore, we want to know exactly what is the policy in these areas. So, I hope you would be able to consult in good time and then come and inform the House, so that we would know the kind of amendments to file.
    Hon Chairman, so, you said we should go to clause 5?
    Mr James K. Avedzi 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I made reference to clause 25 early on when we were correcting the Votes and Proceedings. But I have an amendment there and that is why I am interested in that.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Yes, because from the explanation of the Chairman, if clause 25 has not been finished, it means that the Question has not been put on the entire clause, and I do not see why it has vanished from the Order Paper. So, no decision has been taken by the House on clause 25. I do not know.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg, I think we would come back to clause 25.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Very well. So, if you want us to come back to it, it is another matter.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:10 p.m.
    We will come back to clause 25, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Table Office, make sure that tomorrow, we see clause 25 properly captured on the Order Paper.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the issue raised by the Chairman of the Finance Committee is a very important matter. This is because this is potentially how we could legislate something and then it would disappear.
    So, it is not a small matter that you are raising. I thought the entire Committee ought to give us some explanation how between themselves and the Table Office -- It would disappear. We had mistakes in the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIS) Act; we had mistakes in the Education Act; this is a very important Bill. So, I would want to understand.
    Mr Joseph Y. Chireh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, once the proceedings have captured it as deferred -- But really, at the winnowing, it was agreed that the Chairman, who was sponsoring the amendment should drop it. That was the agreement.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    So, they have to bring it for us to put the Question on the entire clause?
    Mr Chireh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes. That is why I am saying, I do not know why they did not list it. But the understanding was that he will not even move -- So, if it had not be captured as deferred, what could have happened is, as soon as you call clause 25, they would just read it and then whoever now wants amendments to be made, should have been made.
    But once it has been captured in the Votes and Proceedings as deferred, it should have been listed. I think it should or it can be re-instated for us to go ahead.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Very well. So, Chairman, which clause do you want us to take?
    rose
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause
    5.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    But before then, the Hon Member for Old Tafo is on his feet.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this explanation is even putting us in more dangerous grounds. What he is effectively saying is that the Table Office is responsible. That is what he is saying. That is why I am saying that we need an explanation. It cannot be. This process must be understood. It cannot be that the Table Office would, on its own, just decide that.
    Somebody must have been giving them instructions and that is the matter that we are raising. But this explanation that we agreed and therefore -- You cannot do that. It is a serious matter.
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my Hon Colleague from Old Tafo may be right because it is in the Votes and Proceedings that it should be re-advertised. But he should remember, anytime we go for winnowing, things that had been advertised could be agreed to be dropped.

    Mr Speaker, when we went for winnowing yesterday, it came up because the debate was on and there was almost a general consensus to drop it.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, but not what the House has deferred. Not what the House as a House has deferred. That is the point that they are making. This is because the problem is that if the Chairman of the Finance Committee has not drawn the House's attention to it, we would not have had the opportunity of putting the Question on the entire clause.
    So, it would have meant that the House as a House had not taken a decision on clause 25 of the Bill. That is the point. Let us accept that --
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I perfectly agree with you. What I am saying is that the emphasis that he is putting on is my worry. This is because he is putting a lot of emphasis as if some criminality --
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    He is putting the emphasis, so that we do not repeat this mistake. That is my understanding of the emphasis that he is putting on it.
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thought that that was noted and we all agreed that, yes, it was an omission.
    So, if he could kindly let us make progress, we would be very grateful. But what you are saying is right, but we are only saying that the emphasis --
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Member for Old Tafo, the Hon Member has agreed with you.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am assisting the Leadership -- That is my job -- To do work and he is complaining. Mr Speaker, it goes beyond this. The Committees cannot take hold of our rights. That is a simple matter. I am assisting him and so, he should not complain at all.
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is true that the Chairman and I gave an instruction to the Table Office not to table it. We really made a mistake because we had forgotten that it would appear as a deferred thing. Otherwise, we were going to be silent on it, so that when we got there, Mr Speaker would just call it and then take a vote on it.
    So, it was an error on our part because we had actually thought that since we were not going to submit an amendment, it was not necessary to have appeared here. Maybe, we erred. So, Mr Speaker, maybe, let us move on.
    Mr Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Members, the Chairman said that we should go back to clause 5.
    So, clause 5 --
    Mr William O. Boafo 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 5, subclause (1), paragraph (b), subparagraphs (i) and (ii), delete.
    Mr Speaker, the amendment is consistent with the proposed amendment which was agreed to yesterday in respect of clause 13. Further, Mr Speaker, if you go down to look at (ii), the Chairman is coming up with a new proposed amendment whereby a different set of ex- officio members are being recommended for appointment to the Board.
    Mr Speaker, I do not have to waste the time of the House on this particular proposal. It is a foregone conclusion. The amendment seeks to delete the appointment of Deputy Ministers for Finance and Trade and Industry to the Board.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member for Akwapim North, yes, I have seen the import of your amendment and the consequential amendment, which is the (ii) that you have referred to, standing in the name of the Chairman of the Committee. But I want us to get the sense of the House. Is it the understanding that the other Deputy Ministers for Interior and Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration should refrain? But where is the amendment deleting them?
    I just want to know, so that I know what I am doing? If it is not there, then you add it to your amendment and you move it --
    rose
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    I have seen the mistake; you should have joined them. Yes, after the winnowing, the amendment should have stood in the joint name and which should have been (ii). So, in that case, move it. You and the Chairman will move it and therefore, it will stand in your names -- the Chairman will come in and then I will put the Question.
    Mr Boafo 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with your permission, I beg to move accordingly.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Very well.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, subclause (1), paragraph (b), delete and insert the following:
    “(b) the Governor of the Bank of Ghana or his representative not below the rank of Deputy Governor;
    (c) Director-General of the National Development Planning Commis- sion; and
    (d) a representative of the Minister for Finance not below the rank of Director”.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Is it the Minister?
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:20 p.m.
    It is a representative of the Minister for Finance not below the rank of a Director.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am a bit confused. I thought the consensus was that Deputy Ministers should not be on; that is one. But they have not explained why sector representatives are being taken off; that is number two. There are four sectors; is that not it, in the original Bill? The fact that you have taken off the Deputy Ministers, does not mean that the sector representatives should not be there.
    He has not made that case. In any case, it should be the representatives of the Minister; it is not in his personal capacity. Could he explain why suddenly, you do want the Interior and Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration there? Their representatives may be there but you have not explained sufficiently.
    This amendment, if I take it, means that they are gone. You have brought back somebody from the Ministry of Finance; the Ministry of Trade and Industry's representative is gone; the representative of the Ministry of Interior is gone; the representative of Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration is also gone and there is no explanation.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, on clause 10, the technical committee is taking care of all those that Dr Osei has mentioned. We thought that on the Board itself, the rationale for taking out the Deputy Ministers was because of a policy -- a
    constitutional issue -- that you cannot make Deputy Ministers members of the Board against the Ministers. That was a constitutional issue that we all agreed on -- from the same Ministry. So, it was agreed and done. The rationale, the policy behind it -- we had to consult -- was that since the reason the Deputy Ministers were there was because we wanted a high level Board; then if the Deputy Ministers were being taken off, then we needed to get a very strong representation.
    Yesterday, at the winnowing, all of us came together and it was agreed that at that level, where the President is envisaging, it is very necessary that the Governor of the Bank of Ghana in terms of investment, must be made a member of the Board.
    Then coming down, because investments are normally about planning how to help the country achieve her economic potential, and being in line with the development partners, you need somebody from that place.
    This is because we do not want them to be lower than Deputy Ministers; it was agreed that we go in for a Director - General. At the Ministry itself, Mr Speaker, there is already a representative on the technical committee with all the others -- the GRA -- so many others to make it very strong, so that they can advise the Board. [Interruption] -- So, Mr Speaker, that was the rationale for taking the Deputy Ministers off and replacing them with these very powerful representatives.
    Dr Matthew O. Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    I thought we would comprehensively exhaust Hon Member for Akwapim North's amendment before we go into that because that is what is precipitating us. In the original Bill Mr Speaker, the clause 5, subclause 1 (b) --
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, the spirit of the amendment standing in the name of the Chairman of the Committee and the Hon Member for Akwapim North is to remove those Deputy Ministers there --
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am explain- ing something.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    All right. Very well.
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in clause 5, subclause 1, there is (a), (b), (d) and when you get to (b), there are, subparagraphs (i), (i), (i), (v). So, before you go to (c ) and (d), the (c ) in the original Bill is the Chief Executive of the Centre, (d) is five other persons.
    When we look at the combined effect the Hon Members for Madina and Akwapim North are envisaging -- if you look on the Order Paper today, item (ii) (b) -- the Governor of Bank of Ghana -- it means that you are replacing the whole of item (iii), which has four representatives as Deputy Ministers with only the Governor. Then for the (c) in the original Bill, which is the Chief Executive Officer, you are bringing in the Director-General of the -- [Interruption] -- Let me finish.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    The point he is making is that it should be ( i), (ii) and (iii) not (a ) (b), (c).
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Let me finish. There is a fourth Deputy Minister who will not be captured because they are four; so, we have only three.
    Mr Speaker, yesterday on the Order Paper, I had listed an amendment and that is why I am saying that I did not participate in the winnowing. My senior Colleague told me that the Winnowing Committee decided to drop all.
    Mr Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    We will come to your amendment and if you want to move it on the floor of the House, we will allow you.

    The Member for Old Tafo is asking, are we removing all the four, and if so, where are we keeping that of Finance?

    That is the question that they want clarification. Is that not the point?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    To be more specific, even the sponsoring Ministry, they do not want them on the Board. That is what he is saying. I understand the difference between the Board and the technical committee but he cannot explain why the Ministry of Finance is there.
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Member for Old Tafo, but do you agree that these people should be on the Board?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    That is a secondary matter that I --
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    That is the amendment.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    Yes, but if he could clear --
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    You think that they should clear --
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    He should clear that one, then we take the second --
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    And pave way for --
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:30 p.m.
    I can see the planning person from National Development Planning Commission (NDPC) for obvious reasons. But the Governor or Deputy Governor, just like you want to waste the time of Ministers on this Board, you cannot convince me that the Governor or Deputy Governor has the necessary expertise on trade policy or investment policy; monetary policy is different.
    So, you are not making the argument convincing; you are not convincing us. Please, convince us and we will buy into it.
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, on the technical committee, I do not see the Governor of the Bank of Ghana there. It is a representative. Mr Speaker, this is completely different. “A representative of the Bank of Ghana not below the rank of a Director”, is not the same as the Governor --
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Chairman, the amendment there is that “the Governor of Bank of Ghana or his representative not below the rank of a Deputy Governor”. That is your amendment and I am telling you that in clause 10, we have the Governor of Bank of Ghana there. It is not there; have you removed it?
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:30 p.m.
    It is representative; that is what exactly I am reading, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, at the policy level, we should draw a distinction between the policy level and the technical committee level. This House must be very clear; the policy level must be very distinct from the technical level. It is very, very important. Otherwise, people who should be on the technical committee, we will go and put them on the Board.
    The Hon Member for Abuakwa North has been on his feet for a very long time; let me hear him and then I will take the rest.
    Mr Joseph B. Danquah 12:30 p.m.
    All right, Mr Speaker. I yield to the Ranking Member.
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, you can go and do further consultation; that was why we deferred the clause 5. You told us that you have resolved it. On the floor of the House, the resolution is not coming out.
    Mr Danquah 12:30 p.m.
    This is because the arguments must be put up clearly, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the arguments must be put up clearly, so that at least, the House will stand convinced if they are not convinced. -- [Pause.]
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    You have the floor.
    rose
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Yes, I will call everybody on this matter.
    Mr Danquah 12:30 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, the whole essence of removing the political actors or the Deputy Ministers was not to make this investment Board or the investment Council an array of political actors but rather to have it as an investor Council Board. Therefore, you needed some expertise; those who had a bit of financial -- a bit of international investment expertise.
    That was what necessitated the thinking of bringing in the National Development Planning Commission Head and then bringing in someone with requisite international flair when it comes to finance and other matters.
    So, if we believe that the technical committee that has all the Ministry of Finance and the Bank of Ghana and all the representatives, do not necessarily need to sit on the Board, then still the rationale that the person must have some investment analysis expertise, the person must have some financial analysis expertise, the person must have some international dimension expertise, still holds.
    If we do not want to have someone as a Deputy Governor or someone as a Governor to sit on the Board, if you do not want someone from the National Development Planning Commission to sit
    on the Board, still the argument that you need people of the calibre or having financial expertise, people with the calibre of having investment expertise, still holds. So, I do not see a problem if you have the Deputy Governor or a Governor sitting on the Board if he brings this expertise on the Board.
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the reason the Deputy Ministers were taken off as he rightly said was that, we did not want to politicise that institution. And in fact, the sector Minister had to go back to the President to tell him that we did not want that type of politicisation and his reaction was that he did not have a problem with that but what he wanted was a Board that will still inspire confidence to the investor.
    So, we sat down and decided that all right, if that is the case, then of course, the Governor of the Central Bank, yes.
    The Finance Ministry, the reason we put it there is that because we were looking at the finances in the two directions, that is the monetary policy and fiscal policy, there has to be somebody from that area. And our thinking will be that the Minister, knowing that the Governor is a member of the Board or his Deputy Governor is a member of the Board, will bring in the Deputy Finance Minister. But we did not want to make it as part of the law.
    So, if you were a Finance Minister and the Deputy Governor is on the Board, you are not going to bring a director. So, indeed, we did not even agree that it should go beyond Finance. We said it should be a representative of the Minister for Finance -- period -- without going to “not below the rank of a director”. That was not part of the winnowing; I think it is an error here.
    So, that was what we had; we have the Director-General of the National Development Planning Commission, the representative of the Finance Minister and then the Governor, so that we can have both monetary and fiscal policy represented in that room.
    Mr Speaker, so, that was what actually informed our decision there and probably, that is what the Chairman was trying to put across. So, we need people who have the stature to inspire confidence but we do not want them to be politicians. So, that was why we did what we did, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Let me hear from the Deputy Attorney-General, then I will come to the Minority Leader before I come to the rest.
    Dr Dominic A. Ayine 12:40 p.m.
    Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with you that we need to distinguish between the policy level and the technical level. And as Hon Prof. Gyan-Baffour has pointed out, at our discussions yesterday, we made it very clear that at the policy level, which is the Board level, there was the need for us to have the institutions of State that deal with policies that are germane to investment.
    I am very surprised that Hon Dr Akoto Osei is questioning the rationale for bringing in the Bank of Ghana at the level of the Board. The reason is because -- [Interruption.] No, no please. I heard him very clearly unless that is --
    Mr Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    He was asking for clarification whether they had been removed and were being replaced with those ones.
    Dr Ayine 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, may I continue?
    Mr Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Yes.
    Mr Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Attorney- General, I think that we need to defer this matter.
    Hon Members, do you know why we need to defer it? Let me give one example. At the end of the day, this Centre is responsible to the President. General policy of the country, whether we like it or not, the President is part of it --that driving force, we want to remove it in a way from the politician but we cannot divorce it completely from the role of the President, whether we like it or not.
    So, there should be a certain organic relationship between that office and the Presidency in terms of policy, then we can get the driving force at the technical committee to drive that policy without so much politicisation. Go back, look — For example, even though the Hon Member for Old Tafo did not say it, I will want to say for example, that nobody has convinced me why we are putting the Bank of Ghana on the Board and again, on the technical committee as an institution.
    The Bank of Ghana is an institution; nobody has convinced me why we are putting them on the Board and again, at the level of the technical committee. Nobody has convinced me.
    Mr Nitiwul 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to support your position that we defer this clause. We have taken over 30 minutes convincing ourselves on this floor and we are not. First of all, I have two — We have problems.
    Mr Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, let --
    Mr Nitiwul 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I personally have problems with two issues. One is the number [Interruption.] Please, if you allow it to pass like this, it is ten people and not nine. That is the first thing. You
    have the Chairman plus three; your amendment is three persons; that gives you four plus the Chief Executive -- five plus five others nominated. So, -- excuse me, let me explain.
    Mr Speaker, the second one is the membership. How are you going to convince me? Still, you have not convinced me that the sponsoring Ministry, that is the Ministry of Trade and Industry is not there. And then you have the Ministry of Finance there. Please, let us do more consultation, otherwise, why are you taking off the Ministry of Trade and Industry? Why are you leaving only the Ministry of Finance, meanwhile the Ministry itself that is sponsoring the Bill is not part of it?
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect to your Chair and guidance, we have done winnowing. Those who were interested in the winnowing were there, it was deliberated. We have made proposals to the floor and Mr Speaker, we will encourage you to allow us to deal with this.
    Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect, we have done so many Bills here and you remember that when a Board is set up, it is even allowed to set up committees within the Board. And in many Bills in this House, we even go ahead to say that if the Board member is there, he should even chair.
    So, nothing prevents someone from being on a Board, and being on a technical committee because the technical Committee only gives advice to the Board. The Board can decide to either take the advice or reject it. That is why at the point of the decision-taking, you have all the major key players.
    At winnowing yesterday on this issue, we spent well over one and a half hours and these were the compromises that came.
    Mr Speaker, if you ask us to go back, I can assure you, we can sit on this ten more times and each time it comes to the House and a general membership will have to contribute, there may be other divergent views. The thing is that we are here, let us put them to vote; if it is defeated, we can look at what to do, a second amend- ment or something.
    But we think that what we have is a comprised position, at least, for those who were there at winnowing, who were interested in making sure that this Bill passed at least, and had time to be there. Mr Speaker, I will plead with you not to ask that we stand it down further but to take the issues on the floor and deal with them.
    Mr Kwabena Donkor 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have only risen because of the issue relating the issue of the technical committee. What is the exact position of the technical committee? Under Act 8 (2) (1), the Petroleum Commission Act, the Board, you created a Local Content Committee under the Act, in the same way we are creating the technical committee here.
    The Board's position was that the Local Content Committee which is the equivalent of technical committee, is a sub-committee of the Board. That is the position. So, it is a sub-committee of the Board. If we understand that the technical committee is a sub-committee of the Board, then going forward is easier.
    Thank you.
    Mr Frederick Opare-Ansah 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not know why we are going
    round in circles about this matter. If you read the memorandum to the Bill, on page iii, under clause 5, it tells you the sense that the Executive had when they included those four Deputy Ministers. Now, we have agreed we do not want to have Deputy Ministers on the Board. And indeed, I disagree even having Deputy Ministers listed in this Bill because then you are forcing the President to necessarily appoint Deputy Ministers probably, just for the sake of sitting on this Board.
    But if we are taking off these Deputy Ministers, it does not mean we are taking off the sectors that they are representing. All we are asking is, if you have taken off these other sectors, give us reasons. If you have included the Bank of Ghana on there, give us reasons. Looking at the way they are struggling to adduce these reasons. And so far, I have not heard any reason at all why you excluded the Ministry of Trade and Industry or the Ministry of the Interior. I have not heard any reason. But the original Bill that came has those Ministries listed.
    So, tell us why? That is all we are asking for. And it is clear that notwithstanding the one and a half hours that the Winnowing Committee spent yesterday on this particular matter, they have clearly not succeeded in doing any winnowing. They could not even combine the first two amendments on that clause, yet that is the essence of winnowing.
    The amendment that stood in the name of Hon W. O. Boafo and the subsequent Amendment, should have been combined. that is what winnowing is about.
    I do not understand the Majority Chief Whip's insistence that those who had time and those who wanted to be at winnowing were there. What is he talking about, that those who did not come to the winnowing and are in the Chamber, were not interested in winnowing and so, we should not talk? We will talk. Mr Speaker,
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I wish and demand that Hon Opare-Ansah withdraws the statement that he made, trying to paint the picture that the Winnowing Committee did not know what they were doing and that we went and spent the time. Mr Speaker, all those amendments stood in the name of Hon Boafo. Hon Boafo could not attend because he needed to go and pay homage to his creator.
    He said, normally, he does not want to mention that and he was there, and he apologised that he could not come. So, how do you expect us to sit and imagine what Hon Boafo could have brought on board? And he (Hon Opore Ansah) was there; he only came and when I begged him to sit, he only came and left. Not on the “face of any pink sheet.” [Laughter.] We do not have any pink sheet here. We do not have any pink sheet here; we have a yellow, a yellow and a white.
    There is no pink; this is not pink; this is yellow, a white and a green. So, he cannot say that. He was there and I begged him to sit in but he only came for one — and he left. When I begged him, he said he did not have time; he was going somewhere. Yet he comes here to
    condemn -- Hon Members, like Mr Joseph Yieleh Chireh, Prof. Gyan-Baffour -- to say that what we did, we did not know what we were doing. He needs to withdraw that and apologise to us. Please, I seriously demand that he withdraws those statements that we could not even marry the two. Where is he coming from? Mr Speaker, I demand that he withdraws that one and apologises.
    Mr Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Members, this is a very important Bill. We need to pass a law that can withstand the test of time; so, we need to hasten slowly. There is no need to rush. Even though the Hon Majority Chief Whip has made a special application to me, that I should put the Question, once Hon Members are not satisfied -- It can go through a Second Consideration Stage and then — As for putting the Question, it is not a difficulty for anybody presiding over this House.
    They can put the Questions but if Hon Members are not convinced, they will come by a Second Consideration Stage; file so many amendments and you would have to pass through a Second Consideration Stage if the House so desires.
    If you are making a policy, the way the current amendment is -- I am sorry- - I do not want to take part in the discussion. But if you are making an amendment --The Hon Member for Old Tafo is asking -- Are we giving enough clout to the Board by removing those Ministries? Are we giving enough clout to them by removing those Ministries from the Board?
    I know how the Director-General came about. It was the point raised by the Hon Member for Old Tafo. But are we giving them enough clout?
    Alhaji Sorogho 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is your Report and here Hon Members are free to propose any amendment. If they think that there are others who can serve in a better way -- When Hon Members get up to contribute, they should just go straight and say that, “this is what I think should be done”. But when they go round and dance round, say we should go, for winnowing, when they know that when we go, they will not be there, and then they come tomorrow and draw us back; it is not fair.
    Mr Ken O. Agyapong 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe this is simple, in the sense that clause 5 (1) (b), the four Deputy Ministers there can be represented with, just as my Hon Chairman said, those in the Ministry who are not below the rank of Directors.
    I also disagree with the Hon Ranking Member because if you go to clause 5 (d), it gives you “five other members at least, three of whom are persons appointed from outside the Public Service and at least, two of whom are women.” This is where the Attorney-General and Minister for Justice needs the expertise. Expertise would not necessarily come from the Ministry or the Bank of Ghana. So, we can tap people with a clear knowledge from these five appoint-ments.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    In fact, that is precisely what I am also driving at. The point made by the Assin Central MP is the point that I am driving at. So, if we want expertise, the clause 5 there is where we would get the expertise, the other one must be blended with political clout, so that they can drive the organisation.
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we are removing Deputy Ministers from --
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    You are the Ranking Member?
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    I am the Ranking Member, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    I thought you were the Hon Ranking Member on the Special Budget Committee?
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am a de facto Ranking Member for the Special Budget Committee -- [Laughter.]
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Oh no. As for the Special Budget Committee, you are the de facto Chairman?
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    Yes, I am the de facto Chairman.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    But are you a member of that Committee?
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    But you are not the Ranking Member?
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    No, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    There is no Ranking Member; so you are the Chairman and the Vice Chairman. All right.
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    But Mr Speaker, if you want to remove Deputy Ministers from this group, they were there not necessarily because of the institutions that they belong to, but because of the clout that you need for such a Board, that when somebody is coming from outside and he knows that the Board is made up of people of that stature, then it inspires confidence, in addition to the knowledge that they have.
    But if you reduce it to that of Directors of Ministries, that confidence is lost. That is why we moved these Directors into the technical group; that is number one.
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Members, I will hear from the Hon Member for Ahanta West who was the immediate past Chief Executive Officer of the Centre --
    rose
    Mr Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Do not worry, I will call every Hon Member. Let me hear from him and then I might --
    Mr George K. Aboagye 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you very much.
    Mr Speaker, the background to bringing on Deputy Ministers was virtually a negotiated position that was taken by Cabinet after the idea of having an oversight -- The GIPC would be responsible to the President and then the President would have a Minister to have an oversight -- The idea was to give clout and high status to the Board.
    So, Deputy Ministers were proposed, so that decisions can be taken at the Board, which would be implemented without delay; decisions relating to immigration, decisions relating to taxes, levies and decisions relating to other issues like this.
    When the Deputy Ministers are on the Board, they would take such decisions to their Ministries and they would work with them. That is the main reason they were put there -- and also to give clout to the Board.
    Here, we came to the conclusion that we may not need the Deputy Ministers. I personally do not see any problem with having the Deputy Ministers on the Board. But the issue was whether the tenure of the Deputy Ministers would be consistent because they could be changed in a reshuffle or whatever. But it is not the persons for whom the position is created. It is the office, and that is why we had them there.
    If we step them down to a Deputy Governor, a Director-General, it does not give the same clout; it does not. So, as far as I am concerned, it does not really --
    Mr Speaker 1 p.m.
    Deputy Attorney-General and Deputy Minister for Justice, do you have a way out?
    Dr Ayine 1 p.m.
    Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
    I just wanted to touch on the point that you raised about the organic linkage between the Government and the Board. I think that we wanted to address that issue by making the Minister of Finance of his representative a member of the Board, so that we create that organic linkage and also because of the financial and fiscal implications of investment regulation. That is why we suggested that the Minister for Finance should be on the Board.
    Secondly, on the Bank of Ghana -- and I would wish that I be allowed to make this point without interruption, because it is very important --
    Mr Speaker 1 p.m.
    Hon Deputy Attorney- General and Deputy Minister for Justice, it depends on how you make your point. If in making the point, you are in breach of any of the rules, definitely, Hon Members would interrupt you.
    Dr Ayine 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would not want to breach any of our Standing Orders.
    The point is that when we are dealing with investment, it has a relationship with the capital account. It has implications for balance of payment and it has implications, as Hon Prof. Gyan-Baffour has said, on foreign exchange. That is why at the policy level, it is important that we have the Governor of the Bank of Ghana or his representative on the Board.
    At the more technical level, which Mr Speaker has pointed out, we can have a representative of the Bank of Ghana to
    do the day-to-day work on foreign exchange, capital account, balance of payment, that the Governor cannot be doing on a daily basis. That is the rationale for having the representative of Bank of Ghana on the technical committee as well as on the Board for purposes of policy.
    So, I do not see the point of us debating the representation of these institutions -- the National Development Planning Commission is very, very critical because investment must feed into the develop-ment plans of the country. So, the National Development Planning Commission is critical to this process.
    When it comes to aspects of finance, for instance, the exemptions that we grant have fiscal implications. They may lead to a reduction in the government revenue. In that respect, we need the Hon Minister for Finance or his representative also at the technical level. So, this is the rationale for what we are doing, and I believe that Hon Members should support us for us to make progress.
    Dr Prempeh 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I wonder why the Hon Deputy Attorney-General and Minister for Justice is traversing this same point that has been expertly dispensed with by the Hon Majority Leader of this House, quoting article 58 of the 1992 Constitution and its relation with bringing Deputy Ministers onto the Board.
    Mr Speaker, we would want to make a headway. When he talks about organic linkage, there is no more organic linkage than --
    Mr Speaker 1 p.m.
    He did not make that point. It was made by the Hon Member for Ahanta West.
    Dr Prempeh 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the organic linkage has been settled by putting it under the Office of the President, the President designating a Minister and the Minister bringing regulations and whatsoever into this House. We have gone past that.
    It is about the Board. You do not tell us that every investor that is coming appears physically to a Board for members of the Board to have a certain stature.
    The current thinking in the investment world -- we call something “politically exposed persons”. Businesses do not even want to deal with political actors when it comes to investment; it is a fact. That is why the amendment that some of us proposed, that was absent on today's Order Paper, was talking about bringing experts in investment analysis, financial analysis, international trading and development.
    I totally agree that if you say we should bring development partners, NDPC, I do not have a problem -- [Interruption.] --
    Mr Speaker 1 p.m.
    Those are technical matters.
    Dr Prempeh 1 p.m.
    No! It is not the technical matters. It is the Board -- We are talking about the Board. If we are going to bring politicians on the Board, then it does not work. That is why I do not believe that maybe, we should step it down or defer it.
    But the thinking that we should go along with it is that we should define those expertise that are needed on the Board, and let us tie the hands of the President that: --
    “yes, you can appoint the whole nine-member Board but there should be somebody with a development background, and somebody with an

    international trading background, somebody with investment back- ground, somebody with a financial background”.

    So that we get the crowd of the Board, not people coming and just appearing before the Board. It does not work that way, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Peter W. Pepera 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I was with one of the members at the winnowing yesterday and I think that we ought to go back to the basic principles.
    Article 51 of the 1992 Constitution says that the President is the Executive authority. Hon Ministers of State report to him. So, it is the President making policy through his Ministers.
    The reason the GIPC reports direct to the President as opposed to all other government agencies is that, we want it to be a very strong policy-making body. That is why we said: “Look, if you check with our Deputy Ministers --” maybe, we will consider it too low. Yesterday, when we were talking, it was actually the Hon Minister for Finance who should be there.
    Why we said that is, if there is an important strategic investor coming into this country, it will be the Board which will deliberate as to, let us say, granting the person a special exemption or bending the current investment laws to grant that person exemption because of whatever the nature of the business is. That is why we said that those types of people making decisions should be at a very high level.
    rose
    Mr Pepera 1 p.m.
    All right; I withdraw the “small boys”; not that some Deputy Ministers take a decision and then their Hon Ministers do not agree or they feel constrained not to take a decision. That is why we decided on -- Even this business of the Hon Minister for Finance, I think we should leave it as the whole Ministry of Finance. After all, at the end of the day, when there is a Cabinet meeting -- The Hon Minister for Finance has time to go to Cabinet meetings.
    I think Ghana's investment drive is so important that if we are going to have the Governor of the Bank of Ghana there, I believe that the Hon Minister for Finance should make time to also personally be there. Then he can take high level decisions.
    The reason the Ministry of Trade and Industry is not there is that, in the normal course of things, the Hon Minister for Trade and Industry is actually the one who -- Even though it does not specify the Minister for Trade and Industry as the one linking to the President, there is some kind of understanding.
    So, we said that if you put the Hon Minister of Trade and Industry there, he will be reporting to himself as such. That is why the Hon Minister for Trade and Industry is not there. So, we have the two -- fiscal and monetary plus planning, and in my view, that is in order.
    Alhaji Sorogho 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that we need to read the entire clause 5. If you go down, all what Hon Members are suggesting have been captured.
    Mr Speaker, if you go down, the five other members, which we are proposing, should now be four members, are persons appointed from outside the Public Service and at least, two of whom are women.
    Mr Speaker, if you go there, the President shall 1 p.m.
    None

    “The President shall, in making the appointments under this section, have regard to the expertise, knowledge and experience of the person in matters relating to investments and private sector development.”

    Mr Speaker, so, if you just read it hanging and you do not link it, you would never, never understand it.

    I think that if you can put the Question, so that we can move ahead -- because asking us to go winnowing again, would be the third time and yet we would not come out with any --

    So, I think that the amendment as proposed by us must hold.
    Mr Joe Ghartey 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 5 of the Bill must be read together with clauses 4 and 10. This is because as far as the technical expertise is concerned, I believe that clause 10 of the Bill sought to address that.
    Clause 10 said that the Board may establish such committees as it may think fit. But it did not leave it there. It went ahead and the law established a technical committee. So, the place where the expertise would or should exist, is the technical committee.
    When you look at clause 4, it tells us the object of the functions of the Centre. When we come to the Board of Directors, we seem to also be looking at some super technical committee.
    Mr Speaker, even the wording, that it must be people who are interested or have knowledge and expertise in investment
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is precisely where we are now.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just as the Second Deputy Speaker said, when we are looking at the governance of any institution, we are considering a body that would drive the objects.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at a lot of these bodies, even the National Development Planning Commission, up till now, it has not really been effective because the1992 Constitution says we have to get Ministers and other Ministers nominated by the President to serve on it and that has been it. Then you have this very important Commission just being a Commission on paper and not able to have the clout that the Constitution envisages for it.
    Mr Speaker, arguments have been proffered ad nauseam, that “Oh, political direction, et cetera”. That may well be so generally. But in respect of this Centre, it is political direction that is needed. I have looked at this amendment and sometimes, I also do not blame us too much as Members of Parliament. The policy underpinning some of these clauses are not well-explained.
    Mr Speaker, you look at clause 5 (5) and with your permission, I beg to read 1:10 p.m.
    “The Board may in the implemen- tation of the objects of the Centre which is to create an enhanced environment, encourage, promote
    and facilitate investment in the country.
    (a) Design, review, formulate and adopt a national strategy for promoting domestic and foreign investment.”
    Do we really expect the Governor of the Bank of Ghana's representative, et cetera, to be doing this as proposed in the amendment? Then you look at the Director -General of the National Develop- ment Planning Commission, a represen- tative of the Ministry of Finance not below the rank of Director -- [Interruption.] No! I have seen the Governor of the Bank of Ghana.
    I am saying that if you look at the practice aspects of governance, we all know a Deputy Minister assists the Minister and a Deputy Minister has a lot of time on his hands. [Interruption.] A typical Deputy Minister has a lot of time on his hands.

    However, if a Deputy Minister is given a schedule by statute, there is an element of compulsion; it is a responsibility that has been assigned. He is not there probably, at the will or pleasure of the Minister, and he has time for it. So, if you look at the original rendition, it has been informed by practical experience.

    While I may have reservations about something, I do not think that political direction is wrong; political direction is the best. Technocrats advise politicians and politicians then decide to take the decision. And I would give you a personal example. I go to the Ministry and you tell me and I say, “Oh I give you the policy direction; advise me how best we can implement that policy.”

    So, Mr Speaker, I do not think we need to split hairs. And just as the Second Deputy Speaker said, there is a strong technical committee; these are advisers.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Members, I made the point that you should draw a distinction between the Board and the technical committee; I made that point very clear. This is the point made by the Hon Member for Assin Central, Mr Ken Agyapong, the Hon Member for Ahanta West, Mr George K. Aboagye, the Second Deputy Speaker and the Hon Member for Sekondi, Papa Owusu-Ankomah. At the end of the day, if the political will is not there, we would not be able to drive anything.
    One of the Hon Members made a very important point, if you have five others.
    That is where we are taking the expertise from. Why are we marginalising political direction for this very important Centre? That is why I say that you should go back and look at it.
    In fact, yesterday or the day before yesterday, the Hon Majority Leader made the point by reference to article 79 of the 1992 Constitution and said that Deputy Ministers are supposed to assist Ministers and therefore, there could be some constitutional challenges.
    I have been looking all this while at article 79 of the Constitution to see whether there are real constitutional challenges. If the Act of Parliament says that -- at the end of the day, it is the same President who is going to give the formal appointment anyway. So, I want us to go back, so that we can combine the technical expertise effective with political direction -- policy and technical matters.
    So, I would want to defer this matter and we would get Hon Members to file amendments.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to advise the Hon Chairman of the Committee.
    The reason for my asking the question was that, I did not think he had sufficiently argued for what is in the Memorandum. He had the reason.
    Mr Speaker, if you go there --
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    I have read the Memorandum.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:10 p.m.
    He said he did not create a Vice Chair but he has put Deputy Ministers. So, when he now takes them off -- I am wondering but he has a justification. If the Memorandum is specific, then I support the Hon Second Deputy Speaker.
    Raising the question was to give him room to justify it. I agree that political direction -- The Director-General of NDPC or the Governor may not have the same clout as a Deputy Minister and they do not political clout either. So, he has to keep it. But he does not want to --
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, let me tell you something. I am presiding. In this House, it is not the matter of shouting Aye or Noe but you take the sense of the House, the Hon Members arguing -- It clearly shows that there is strong resentment to the amendment standing in the name of the Hon Chairman; that is the sense I get. I can put the Question but there would be challenges. So, there is nothing wrong --
    Alhaji Sorogho 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think you can defer it and we would go back and do more consultation today.
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the problem here is that we are actually looking at the traditional Boards where they do not have to be experts. Then there is another model that is evolving from the Memorandum that is saying something different. That is why there is confusion here.
    In fact, the original law does not have Ministers; it does not have anybody. All that it has is the Chairman, Vice Chairman, Chief Executive of the Centre and five other members, at least, three of whom are persons selected from outside the Public Services, just as they are suggesting. But when you look at the Memorandum, it looks like there is a model, a new thing that is trying to evolve. Based on your advice, maybe, we have to go back and look at exactly what that model is.
    This is because there are some countries where the Boards for the Investment Centres are made up of very powerful people, and not just anybody being put on a Board. So, let us go back and confer with the Hon Minister, so that we can actually come up with some response.
    Mr Jamal B. M. Ahmed 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that if you look at the old law and look at the new law, the new law is informed by practical experience from the old law.
    I agree with the Hon Member for Sekondi when he said that Deputy Ministers have a lot of time; it is true because if you are a Deputy Minister -- and even have their own schedules and the Minister directs that “Go this way,” you will go that way because you work in the shadows of your Minister.
    I think that with this law --We should always say that if we are here as politicians, politicians are experts in their own right.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:10 p.m.
    On a point of order.
    Mr Speaker, certain statements are not good. He says if you are a Deputy Minister and the Minister says “Go here,” then you go. So, if the Minister says “Go and die,” you will go and die? [Laughter.] Please!
    Mr J. M. Ahmed 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that when we are speaking here, we make submission to clearly show that our role as Deputy Ministers is to assist our Ministers. So, what I am saying is that once Deputy Ministers are in the committee, they will have enough time to attend and give it the political clout that we all need.
    I think that the Board should be differentiated from the technical commit- tee and we should keep the Deputy Ministers there. More importantly, the Deputy Minister for Trade and Industry must always be there.
    Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Members, I am deferring this matter. If tomorrow or any day we call this clause, whatever is there, I will put the Question on it for the House to take a decision.
    Hon Majority Chief Whip, it is almost 1:30 p.m. and we are only on clause 5.
    Alhaji Muntaka 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Committee will go and re-look at it.
    Mr Speaker, as they go to consider it, I would just want to draw the attention of all to something. If you look at the nine- member Committee, political appointees are six, at least, in the nine. This is because aside the Minister for Finance and the Chairperson, the President has the additional four --
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Member, we have deferred it. What is the next clause, or we adjourn till tomorrow.
    Dr Ayine 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as a matter of practice and convention -- I stand corrected -- there were references to the Memorandum and what it stated, when Hon Dr Akoto Osei was speaking. I do not know whether as a matter of parlia- mentary practice, the Memorandum is binding throughout the Consideration Stage of a Bill, so that it is not possible for Parliament to deviate from what the Memorandum has said. That is the impression I am getting.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    No! It acts as a guide. The Memorandum explains the mischief in the previous law which the current law is trying to address. That is the essence of the Memorandum. So, it guides us at all the stages. It will not be binding, but it guides us. In fact, if you know the current provision in the Interpretation Act, you can use it for purposes of interpretation under our current Interpretation Act.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Majority Chief Whip, let us adjourn.
    Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, taking a cue from the Chair and also from the House, I beg to move, that this House stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10.00.
    I would also want to add that --
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    You have to wait for the Mace to stand upright.
    Dr A. A. Osei 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I did not hear the Chair say that the Consideration Stage is over.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    I have asked him to move for adjournment, so it means that the Consideration Stage is over.
    Hon Members who have expressed diverse views on clause 5 should assist the Winnowing Committee, so that we can come to an acceptable rendition for clause 5.
    Mr Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Hon Majority Leader, you are welcome.
    Dr Bemjamin B. Kunbuor 1:10 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Pause.]
    Mr Speaker, I have been advised that in the circumstances, the House be adjourned to Friday, 28th June, 2013 at
    Mr Dominic B. A. Nitiwul 10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
    Question put and Motion agreed to.
    Mr Speaker 10 a.m.
    Hon Members, thank you very much.
    ADJOURNMENT 10 a.m.
  • The House was accordingly adjourned at 1.30 p.m. till Friday, 28th June, 2013 at 10.00 a.m.