Debates of 13 Jun 2006

MR. SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10 a.m.
CORRECTION OF VOTES 10 a.m.
AND PROCEEDINGS AND 10 a.m.
THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
Order! Order! Correction of Votes and Proceedings, Friday, 9th June 2006. Page 1, 2 --
Mr. B. D. K. Adu 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, on
Friday, I was at Akosombo to attend the environmental seminar and I have been marked as absent.
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
Hon. Member for Okere,
we have yet to go to “absentees”. What is your problem now?
Mr. Kojo Armah 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker,
similarly, I was also at Akosombo with hon. Lee Ocran on one of your committee's
-- 10 a.m.
rose
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
Hon. Member for Wa West, I have not called you yet -- [Laughter.]
Mr. Lee Ocran 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I have
the same problem; I was at Akosombo on Thursday and Friday.
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
All the necessary
corrections would be done. Page 3 . . . 5 --
Mr. J. Y. Chireh 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
We have noted your
concern. Page 6 . . . 10. Hon. Members, we have two Official Reports for Wednesday, 7th June 2006 and Thursday, 8th June, 2006. [Pause.] Hon. Members, we move to item 3 -- Questions.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 10 a.m.
MINISTRY OF WOMEN AND 10 a.m.
Minister for Women and Children's Affairs (Hajia Alima Mahama) 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, a total amount of ¢920 million (nine hundred and twenty million cedis) was allocated to women undertaking cropping through Agricultural Develop- ment Bank and ARB Apex Bank in the Upper East Region.
An amount of ¢350 million (three hundred fifty million cedis) sent through the ARB Apex Bank has been disbursed to Chiana, Navrongo, Zebila, Sandema and Fumbisi women groups. The Agricultural Development Bank received an amount of ¢570 million (five hundred and seventy million cedis). ¢130 million (one hundred and thirty million cedis) has been disbursed to groups in Pusiga and Garu. Currently, ¢440 million (four hundred and forty million cedis) is being disbursed.
As per instructions to the banks, they were responsible for full recoveries and accordingly bear all credit risks.
Therefore, the banks were conducting screening and animation of the groups to determine their creditworthiness before disbursement.
Mr. Ndebugre 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister who decided on the groups of women to benefit from this fund.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, many
different women's groups brought request to the bank for support, and usually, we would ask them to pass them through the District Assemblies because we are not in every community and we want to ascertain that the women actually exist in those communities.
Mr. Ndebugre 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to know further from the hon. Minister whether her Ministry has involved Members of Parliament from those areas she has mentioned in her Answer in deciding on these groups or at least providing them with information about these groups.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker,
Members of Parliament do bring in requests to the Ministry and when they bring in their request and we can honour them we do honour them. Sometimes, District Assemblies also bring in requests and we do honour them when we have the resources to do that.
Mr. Ndebugre 10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would
like to know from the hon. Minister whether she does not think that it would be useful for Members of Parliament to be given advance notice about these disbursements so that they can effectively play their oversight role.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I do not understand the Question, if he can explain illustratively.
Mr. Speaker 10 a.m.
Hon. Member for

[HAJIA MAHAMA] Zebilla, you may kindly repeat your question.
Mr. Ndebugre 10:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, for
example my constituency or my district is one of the districts to which these disbursements were made but I am not aware. That is why I am asking whether it would not be useful for the Minister to give advance notice to Members of Parliament about these disbursements so that they can more effectively perform their oversight function.

Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament usually bring in requests. As I indicated, when they do bring in requests and we can honour them, we do. But we do not present our periodic programmes to hon. Members of Parliament to approve as to whether we should implement them or not. I do interact with a lot of hon. Members of Parliament and they bring in their requests, and when we have the allocation and we are disbursing and it is possible to honour them, we do honour them.
Mr. J.A. Tia 10:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I want
to know from the hon. Minister whether members of a group are required to individually have their own bank accounts before they can access the facility, or the group as a whole should have one bank account.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, the
requirement is that it is a group and the group should have one bank account. The problem has been that we gave 100 per cent credit risk to the banks and the banks were supposed to take full recovery. In fact, I am proposing that this be reviewed. Once the banks are taking 100 per cent credit risk and recovery, they apply all their rules.
So the banks sometimes insist, and in fact, many of them do insist that within the group accounts individuals should have their own accounts so that they can monitor them individually. That is a requirement from the bank, not from the Ministry.
Mr. Tia 10:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, will the
hon. Minister agree with me, and if so, what would be her recommendations to the banks that the requirement that each individual in a group should have an account is delaying the process of accessing the facility? As she is aware, this credit facility was in 2005.
Some women who were to benefit from my constituency, as at now, are unable to benefit because of the requirement of opening individual bank accounts. The amount they are going to be given is so small so if you ask them to go and open individual bank accounts, they shy away. What would be the hon. Minister's recommendation to facilitate quick access to this money by the women?
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I
agree with him that the requirement for opening an individual account can cause problems. Indeed, one of the reasons the ADB gave for not disbursing was that the money came in late, when the agricultural cropping calendar was almost over and that if they were going to disburse, the money would not be used for agricultural purposes, the purposes for which the money was given.
The main problem is the fact that we have given 100 per cent credit risk to the banks so they insist that if they do not apply their procedures, they would not be able to recover the money. They also say that once the money is due, they are debited at the Bank of Ghana and it reflects

[HAJIA MAHAMA] in their books and they need to ensure that all moneys given would be recovered.

Mr. Speaker, my take on that is that, the Government should take 50 per cent risk. The Government should bear part of the risk and the whole 100 per cent should not be borne by the banks. Especially when it is micro-credit - ¢1,000,000, ¢500,000 - we should bear the 50 per cent risk. Therefore, we would be able to hold the banks to do some of the things that we think we would expedite action on the disbursement of the funds.
Mr. C. K. Humado 10:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister, apart from the requirements from the banks, what other criteria are used in selecting women beneficiaries and who in the District Assembly is supposed to do that selection.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, as you are aware, the Ministry has not got staff at the district level and we do a lot of travelling with our regional staff and even at the head office. When the names of some groups are brought, we need to ascertain whether they are really there. So I write to the District Assembly or I call them to say, this group has come, are you aware of their existence? What is their position in the area?”
We also take groups from known associations, for example, Christian Mothers Association. Everybody knows that Christian Mothers Association exists and we cannot dispute that. So if the leadership of the Christian Mothers Association brings requests, I can immediately honour that. Presbyterian Women Association and all the faith- based associations are identifiable, we know them, and we can verify from their organisations. These days, we have so many associations and we are not in a position to verify some of them, but if it
is an association that we can verify, we go ahead and provide training for the groups or even ask them to provide training for their groups so that we can disburse.
Mr. A.K. Agbesi 10:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Ministry for this laudable work it is doing for our women. I want to ask the hon. Minister what amount has been sent to other areas, like the area being referred to, and whether such amounts have been sent to other areas of the country for us to know. Particularly, some hon. Members of Parliament are not aware that these facilities exist in the Ministry for our women.
So I want to know from her whether other provisions have been made for other areas so that we would be able to tell our constituents.
Hajia Mahama: Yes, Mr. Speaker, provisions are made for other areas and we ensure that all areas access the funding. I would like to say that this micro-credit programme has been on for the past five years and the money in the system is up to ¢70 billion, and in every region we had these amounts. What I would tell hon. Members is, we should endeavour to also find out what moneys are located in the banks in our communities.
We would usually want the moneys to be there to serve as revolving funds. So in addition to the moneys that we give every year, there are moneys in the banks and in the system that the banks are recovering. We need to continue to provide women groups with access to those funding that have been recovered.
Programme for Women and Children in Bongo District
Q. 526. Mr. Albert Abongo asked the Minister for Women and Children's Affairs, the Ministry's programme for

[HAJIA MAHAMA] women and children in the Bongo District.

Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, the Ministry has since its inception undertaken a number of initiatives to improve the welfare of women and children in the Bongo district. Specifically with regard to women issues, the following measures have been undertaken:

Collaboration with the Ministry of Local Government's District C a p a c i t y - B u i l d i n g P r o j e c t (DISCAP) to establish Gender Desk Offices (GDO) at all the District Assemblies in the Upper East Region including Bongo district.

300 women have benefited from micro credit support from the Ministry to women in the Bongo district.

In 2003, two women groups were given shea-butter extraction mill and a grinding mill each. These mills were installed by the women groups with support from the Bongo GDO and District Assembly and are known to be functional. The mills can be found in Bongo town and in Bongo Beo.

In col laborat ion wi th other development partners such as Action Aid International Ghana, PRIDE, ACDEP, RISEG NET, Diocesan Development Office, Single Mothers Association, Widows and Orphans, and the Regional F.M. station amongst others, the Department of Women of MOWAC has been organizing and supporting advocacy programmes aimed at reducing the high incidence of negative cultural practices against women in the District, notably “Taazaba”, widowhood rites, the high incidence of teenage pregnancy, high rate of female dropout of school, etc.

“Taazaba” is a local word which

means taking a female relation to bed and failing to take responsibility for marrying and honouring her children. This is done through collaborative workshops and seminars, follow-up community durbars and radio discussions.

The Ministry's plan for the district includes the following:

To increase micro credit scheme to more women

To engage and support women to engage in income-generating activities such as animal rearing.

Similarly, the Ministry intends to put

in place a number of measures to address health, educational and cultural issues confronting children in the district. These include --

Organize community durbars, workshops and fora on girl-child education, good parenting, maternal health, NHIS, ECCD, Children's Act, and issues on child labour and child rights, Human Trafficking Act, Domestic Violence Bill and other women's rights generally.

Collaborative with the District Assembly, GES and NGOs to assist in the development of ECCD centres.

P rov ide wean imix cen t r e s , support the education of mothers on childcare and preparation of weanimix or weaning foods.

Oganize durbars with chiefs, opinion leaders and community elders to abolish “taazaba”, early marriages, child betrothal and other harmful cultural practices that mitigate the proper development of children.

Formation of district multi-sectoral committees on child protection and

[HAJIA MAHAMA] volunteer child teams to handle child abuse cases at the community level.
Mr. Abongo 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister -- She said under paragraph 3 that some disbursements have been made to 300 women in Bongo District. I would like to know how much this is.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I can get the definite figures and amount but it ranged from five hundred thousand to one million cedis. If he wants to know which specific woman got what, it ranged from five hundred thousand to one million cedis.
Mr. Abongo 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister also said that she intends to increase micro credit to the women and also encourage them to get involved in income-generating activities such as animal rearing and so on and so forth. I would like to know from the hon. Minister when this programme would take off and how much she would be putting into it.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, it is an ongoing programme. The credit programme is ongoing and the interaction with women on increasing income- generating activities are also ongoing. As I indicated, we have a gender desk officer in this particular District. We do not have gender desk officers in all districts but Bongo happens to be one of the places that we have gender desk officers and we have the regional officers so they would work together to continue this programme.
Incrementally, this year, we would send some money and next year we would send some money, incrementally. But I cannot say exactly how much we would be giving this year. We would try as much as possible to ensure that every district in
the country gets small so that everybody would know that micro credit is happening in the whole country.
Mr. C. S. Hodogbey 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the perception of the communities to which these moneys go is that they think it is politicized. They think the District Chief Executive, being an appointee of the Government and the money also coming from the Government, is always politicized. You would think Members of Parliament even if they are from the same party should be involved so that there will be equitable distribution of this funds.
Mr. Speaker 10:20 a.m.
Hon. Member for North Tongu, this is not a supplementary question. It is not a supplementary question. If you have other questions, please, go ahead.
Mr. Hodogbey 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, my question is, does the hon. Minister have any intention to involve Members of Parliament in the distribution of these funds?
Mr. Speaker 10:20 a.m.
Hon. Member, would you be kind enough to repeat your question?
Mr. Hodogbey 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is, would it be appropriate or better to involve hon. Members of Parliament when it comes to the distribution of these funds to women? [Interruption.]
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:20 a.m.
None

Some hon. Members: Sit down!
Mr. Speaker 10:20 a.m.
Order! Order! Hon. Member for North Tongu, if you have other supplementary questions, ask please.
Mr. Hodogbey 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat. Would it be appropriate to

[HAJIA MAHAMA] get hon. Members of Parliament involved when it comes to the distribution of funds to women in the Bongo District?

Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Bongo has been interacting with me and when he brings a group and we have the resources, we will consider the group. He has been coming to me and we have been talking about it.
Mr. Tia 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would want to know from the hon. Minister whether she would consider involving all hon. Members of Parliament in the disbursement of this credit facility.
Plans for Alleged Witches of Kukuo Witches Village
Q. 582. Mr. K. Karim Wumbei asked the Minister for Women and Children's Affairs what plans the Ministry had to make life worthwhile for the supposed witches in the Kukuo witches village of the Wulensi constituency.
Hajia Mahama: Unlike the other “witch camps”, supposed witches in the Kukuo community are not isolated but rather integrated into the community. In order to generate a reliable database for decision-making for any meaningful intervention, the Ministry in collaboration with Tiyumtaba Integrated Development Association (TIDA) has obtained secondary data regarding the ages of these supposed witches and how long they have been in the camp.
The information obtained revealed that the longest-stayed alleged witch is 20 years while the newest entrant came in only 2 months back, as at the time of writing this Answer. Their ages however range between 10 years and 80 years.
The younger ones are engaged in food crop farming -- cassava, maize and
groundnuts being their favourites because these do very well in their location.
Furthermore, the Ministry has undertaken a number of sensitization programmes and this has contributed to the reduction of population of inmates of the camp over the years (from 137 in 2001 to 114 in 2005).
We will continue to interact with them and sensitize the community on women's rights issues, and support them in their economic activities.
Mr. Wumbei 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I think
you can see the enormity of the case of the witches in Kukuo. Girls as young as ten years old are branded witches and sent to that village. May I ask the hon. Minister what support programmes she has got for these girls, especially those who are still attending school.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, 30-
year olds are not girls. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that in Kukuo, the supposed witches are part of the community, it is not like Nyaani where the witches have their own camp. They are integrated in the village and they are part of the communities and their grand- children live with them and they do go to school. The younger witches, it is our plan, hopefully together with the hon. Member, that we should continue to provide sensitization workshops so that the younger ones would be allowed to go to school.
He knows that we have that problem and even in my constituency, we have that problem. It is an attitudinal issue and once it is an attitudinal issue, we have to work on it in terms of sensitization and awareness-raising.

[HAJIA MAHAMA] 10.30 a.m.
Mr. Wumbei 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I am asking the hon. Minister what specific programme or support she has got for the people of the Kukuo witches village.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I have
indicated that the specific activity we want to do in the community, and we have started and is ongoing and we would continue to do it with the support of the Member of Parliament and the District --is sensitizing the community about labelling people as witches and isolating them. It is very important and that is the basis and that is where we need to start from.
Mr. Wumbei 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, according
to her figures here the number has reduced from 137 to 114. What has brought about the reduction? Is it by death or transfer to other camps?
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, the
sensitization programme carried on in the area is a contributory factor to the reduction in the number of inmates in this area and usually, some of them go back to other communities; they move out to other communities and are not identified anymore as witches within the Kukuo community.
Dr. Benjamin Kunbuor 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker,
I want to ask the hon. Minister whether it is acceptable to designate a segment of the community as witches and to even institutionalize it and make provision for it.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I have
also a witches camp in my constituency and I know that we have three witches camps in the Northern Region -- Gambaga, Nyani and Kukuo. The Kukuo one is relatively the more integrated one and Gambaga and Nyani follow next.
Mr. Speaker, it is unacceptable to have witches camps in these days. The human rights of women should be observed. But Mr. Speaker, the relevant point is that some of these women are isolated in their communities, beaten up and stoned and historically the witches' camps have served as refugee camps for the witches.
If I were to stand here and say that the witches' camps should be abolished, the chiefs would be willing to allow them to be abolished but then these women may go back to their communities and be lynched; it has happened before. I am aware that it has happened on different occasions when women have gone back to their communities and they have been killed.
So the witches' camps, if we talk about international human rights and even within our Constitution and within our human rights observance, we would want to say that there should not be camps' but if we go now and fight for the abolition of the witches' camps, I am not going to be there twenty-four hours to ensure that when they go back to their villages they would not be lynched. This is the dilemma that we have, Mr. Speaker.
Dr. Kunbuor 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, witchcraft,
as it were, seems to be an African reality. Why is it that you do not have wizards' camps but you only have witches' camps?
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, I do
not identify witches and I know that it is with African tradition. Everybody talks about witches -- religiously -- I am a Moslem and I know that my religion talks about evil and good. Christianity too talks about evil and good and so is traditional religion and if it is translated into the form of witches, sometimes they have wizards but if they translate it from witches and say that witches are the ones, I am not here to deny whether witches exist or not.
But Mr. Speaker, I also know, and research has also indicated, that a woman in her menopausal stage reacts under certain circumstances in the night. She wakes up, she is sweating all over and maybe a child is sick then people would jump to the conclusion that, “look at her, she has just come out from a witch hunt and that is why she is sweating”.
So we need to continue to do a lot of education on this programme. There are different reasons why women are looked upon as witches and the menopausal stage is a health issue. We need to continue to educate our community. If a woman wakes up in the night and she is sweating, it does not mean that she has just come from witchcraft hunting, or if a child is sick in the house and has temperature, it is not necessarily the woman. We need to look at all issues related to malaria, related to infant healthcare.
Mr. Speaker 10:20 a.m.
Minister for Women and
Children's Affairs, thank you very much for appearing to answer these Questions; you are discharged.
MINISTRY OF LANDS, 10:20 a.m.
FORESTRY AND MINES 10:20 a.m.
Minister for Lands, Forestry and Mines (Prof. Dominic Fobih) 10:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the Forestry Commission in 2003 produced the “Shai Hills Resource Reserve Tourism Development Framework”. This document outlines plans to fully secure the 31km-long perimeter fence, improve resource protection and diversity in the reserve, rehabilitate and extend the tourist

road network and develop a range of visitor/tourism facilities and amenities to cater for day visitors and overnight guests.

During the same year (2003), an attempt was made to introduce some private sector investment into the reserve and a tender was launched. A lodge site concession was subsequently offered through an open tender process. There was little competition for the site, but Marina Travel and Tours Limited submitted the best tender of the two (that is Marina Travel and Tours Limited and Ecofest Foundation) that were received. It has not been possible to conclude the concession agreement because there were few issues to be sorted out with the developer. Marina tours plans to develop the following on a 3.6 sq. km. portion allocated to the company:

A Safari Park

A 300-bedroom facility at the northern end Upgrade the entire road network at the reserve

A golf course at the northern end

A 100-bed eco-lodge between the hills.

Just a few weeks ago, the management team from the Wildlife Division of the Forestry Commission, the Ministry and representatives from the private sector company held a meeting and resolved all outstanding issues. This has paved the way to finalize the agreement document for the commencement of the project.

It is hoped that the development of the Shai Hills resource reserve will contribute significantly to the promotion of the tourism industry in Ghana and also generate foreign exchange earnings for

the country.
Mr. Avedzi 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when exactly the document will be finalized for the commencement of the project. Can he be specific on the date that the document would be finalized?
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Presently, the document
that has been agreed upon by the three parties, that is the Ministry, the Wildlife Division and the Marina Travel and Tours has been given to me for my perusal. A copy is also being submitted to the Attorney-General for his comments and after that, the document will be signed and work can immediately begin.
Mr. Avedzi 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I listened
to the answer from the hon. Minister but I want a specific time. In his own estimation, how long will it take for this process to be concluded?
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I have said that the document has been submitted to the Attorney-General and I cannot say it will be concluded at this hour or the next hour. But I am sure that we will press on to get the document from the Attorney- General and as soon as we get it, we will sign it and work will begin; as soon as possible.
Mr. Asamoah Ofosu 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would want to ask the hon. Minister whether it would be compatible to have a 300-bedroom facility, a golf course and a 100-bed eco-lodge within a perimeter of 31km and still maintain and promote wildlife.
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Yes, it is. We examined
it critically at the technical level and we ceded 3.6 km to the private sector developer. We think within that context, the development could be possible.
Alhaji Collins Dauda 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, in the Answer offered by the hon. Minister, he indicated that the delay of the conclusion of the concession agreement is due to issues that needed to be sorted out between the Ministry and the developers. He also indicated that a few weeks ago, a meeting was held to resolve these difficulties. May I know from the hon. Minister what some of these difficulties are.
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the
issue was with who collects the gate fees. We examined this and came to an understanding as to the way it should be sorted out; so gate fee collection was one of the issues.
Mr. S. A. Kwao 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker,
according to the hon. Minister, the concession was offered through an open tender process and two companies offered themselves for the competition and one had the best. I think when two things are being compared, we do not have the best, we have the better. So how is he sure that the option of Marina Travel and Tours was the best?
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Well, Mr. Speaker,
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 10:40 a.m.
Mr.
Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that a typical safari park should not be less than 36 sq.km, and if he is aware, how can he say that of the 31sq.km facility that we have, we are going to have a safari park, a 300-bedroomed facility, a golf course, a 100-bed eco-lodge and things that he has alluded to. Does he not think that this really is an incompatible land use that he is talking about, and indeed, that the parcel of land that he has cannot accommodate all these things that he has talked about?
Prof. Fobih 10:40 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, we think
otherwise because the developer is
restricted to the 3.6 sq.km and this is the degraded portion of the resource. And of course, of the reserve, there are sufficient lands there for him to add on if he needed to. So we think that after careful scrutiny of this -- and the consultant of the private sector has also closely examined the details of this plan -- we found it to be feasible without any interference or jeopardy to the main reserve that is left.
Mining in Forest Reserves
Q. 464. Mr. Evans Paul Aidoo asked
the Minister for Lands, Forestry and Mines why mining was going on in the forest reserves of the country.
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, prior to
March 1996, some companies had been permitted to carry out mineral exploration within some forest reserves. However, because of growing concerns for the depletion of our forest reserves and the degradation of the environment generally, the Ministry of Lands and Forestry (at that time) considered placing a ban on mineral exploration in forest reserves in March 1996.
It was however, recognized that some of these companies had already spent substantial sums of money, reached advanced stages of their exploration activities and had also identified significant resources. Additionally, they had not been found to have contravened any of the terms of the forestry permits under which they were operating.
Af ter a ser ies of s takeholder consultations that is between (Ministry of Lands and Forestry, Forestry Department, Minerals Commission and Chamber of Mines), it was agreed that companies which had reached advanced stages in their exploration within the forest reserves should be allowed to complete their exploration programmes. Seventeen (17)

of them were identified to fall within this category.

Operational Guidelines for Mineral Exploration in Forest Reserves (1997) were subsequently set out in September 1997 to regulate exploration activities in forest reserves.

Five (5) of these companies which have been granted permits under this framework, have defined commercial gold deposits. These are:

Newmont Mining Corporation (Akyem Project) in the Ajenjua Bepo Forest and then the second is AngloGold Ashanti Limited (Kibi Project), the Supuma Shelterbelt. The third is Golden Star Resources (Opon Manso) in the Opon Manso Forest; and the fourth is Chirano Goldfields Limited in the Tano Suraw Forest Reserve; and the last one and the fifth is Wexford Limited (Akyempim Project) in the Subin River Forest.

In line with the New Patriotic Party

(NPP) Government's policy of ensuring minimal harm to the environment, the Government gave approval to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to develop special guidelines -- (Environmental Guidelines for Mining in Productive Forest Reserves in Ghana, May 2001) for mining in productive forest reserves where logging is already allowed.

The additional requirements imposed by the special guidelines aimed at protecting the forest include:

1. additional public hearing, beyond what is required for mining in non- forest reserve areas;

2. more stringent and frequent monitoring funded from the extra 0.6 per cent additional revenue that is levied;

3 . s t r i c t e r r e h a b i l i t a t i o n a n d reforestation requirements, that is, additional off-reserve affore-station equal to the size impacted upon in the reserve; and

4. payment of additional royalty of

0.6 per cent above the normal 3 per cent royalty to meet the cost of monitoring and enforcement.

Government caused a ministerial and technical team to visit and study the five (5) sites within the productive forest that the mining companies had applications for mining lease.

Based on the visit and report by the ministerial and technical team, Cabinet in 2003 recommended the granting of mining leases to five (5) companies to mine in the particular productive forests.

More important of these is the fact that only mining proper will be allowed in the forest reserve. All other activities and infrastructure will be located outside the reserve. The mining companies are also expected to reclaim the areas they mine.

Reclamation bonds are to be posted by the companies to ensure that in the event that an investor does not carry out the required reclamation, funds will be available for Government to do so.

With strict implementation of the Operational Guidelines for Mineral Exploration in Forest Reserves (1997) and the Environmental Guidelines for Mining in Productive Forest Reserves in Ghana (May 2001), the coexistence of mining and forest is being carefully managed.
Mr. E. P. Aidoo 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether his Ministry, by giving out five productive forest reserves for mining, has complied with the Forestry Commission Act, Act 571, section 2, subsection (b), which talks about proper management of the nation's forest reserves and protecting areas by the Commission.
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, we have done so. As I read from my Answer, there was a consensus, taking into account the impact of their operations within the context of the locations in which they were to operate and within also the extra guidelines that were provided by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). And we thought the impact was minimal; so we did so. So there was no contra- vention here.
Mr. E. P. Aidoo 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, does the hon. Minister see this regulation of giving out our forest reserves to foreign investors for mining as a productive exercise?
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, we have not
in a wholesale manner given our forest reserves for mining activities. We do so with extra caution and that is why in my Answer, there were highly prescriptive stages that we went through, even crowned by a ministerial visit to the sites to assess the sizes and locations of these operations.
We also know that only the actual mining will take place in that particular spot but all other mining activities are supposed to take place outside the reserves. So we believe that in terms of the cost-benefit analysis of the specific area concerned, we were doing the right thing.
Besides this, the Kombi mine for AngloGold, for instance, is just like the
Mr. E. P. Aidoo 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, in the hon. Minister's Answer, he said that the New Patriotic Party (NPP) Government has a policy of ensuring minimal harm to the environment. Mr. Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister whether depletion of the forest cover and pollution of streams in those reserves can be considered as minimal harm to the environment?
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Yes, we do so and that is why we took extra measures to ensure that the decision we arrived at was guided by prudence. So we think that that takes care of our concern for the environment. Besides, we made arrangements that where a mining company operates in a forest reserve, they will have to create another forest in addition to the rehabilitation of the specific area that they are mining; and so this will even increase the size of the forest, as it were, after the operations.
Mr. J. K. Gidisu 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, in the hon. Minister's Answer -- I hope the hon. Minister is taking note of the question -- he said that based on the report of a ministerial and technical team, Cabinet recommended the granting of mineral leases to five companies. I would want to find out from the hon. Minister if these companies are different from the earlier five that he mentioned; and if not, what influenced the selection of the new companies that were identified after the team's visit.
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, in the first instance, these companies are not different from the five; they are the five that we have so far granted licences to operate.
Mr. J. K. Gidisu 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the
second part of my question has not been answered.
Mr. Speaker 10:50 a.m.
We will come back again. Let the hon. Member ask his supplementary question.
Mr. Raphael Kofi Ahaligah 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, with the answers provided as guidelines for the mining companies, how many companies are adhering strictly to the guidelines as he has just told this House?
Mr. Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon. Minister, is it clear or you want the supplementary question to be repeated? Hon. Member, will you be kind enough to repeat your supplementary question?
Mr. Ahaligah 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, the supplementary question I am asking the hon. Minister is this: He said there were rules governing mining in this country. So I am asking that with the answers provided for the guidance of the mining companies, how many companies are adhering strictly to the guidelines as he has just told this House?
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I do not seem to understand the question well; maybe, it is not audible to my ears.
Mr. Speaker 10:50 a.m.
He is asking you whether these companies are following the laws or guidelines.
Prof. Fobih 10:50 a.m.
Yes, they are doing so and they are being strictly monitored -- [Interruption] -- The five companies -- There are only five companies.
Mr. Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon. Member for Central Tongu, ask your supplementary question.
Mr. J. K. Gidisu 10:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, my concern was the fact that when the

NPP Government came, there were five companies which were operating under the operational guidelines of 1997, of which the hon. Minister and, for that matter, the NPP Government found some shortcomings and decided to let them come out with the NPP approach of causing minimal harm to the environment.

But they went round and came back to the same five companies which were identified. And I am trying to find out from the hon. Minister what new things or otherwise had been done to let them go back to the 1997 companies whose operations in the forest they had earlier had question marks about.
Prof. Fobih 11 a.m.
Initially, the whole idea was a new thing to us because we had just taken office, and so we needed time to study the details of why they had to be given permission to operate in the forest reserve. So we assembled a lot of data, including the guidelines he has mentioned, and then we also sensitized public opinion about this and the feeling was that if the sizes and the locations are in areas that would not heavily impact on the forest reserve, we would still need much stricter regulations as a deterrent to those companies which would be operating in the forest reserve; that is why we came by the 2001 EPA guidelines as well.
We also assessed the level of operations of the five companies and we found that these were companies which had got to the advanced stage and had also invested heavy amounts of money into the exploitation activities, and they could technically sue us if the conditions were such that we were not fair to them. So we looked at all the pros and cons and then took a decision as to what was feasible at the time.
Mr. Speaker 11 a.m.
Minister for Lands,
Forestry and Mines, thank you very much for appearing.
STATEMENTS 11 a.m.
Mr. Mahama Ayariga (NDC -- Bawku Central) 11:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I must say that the Statement made by the hon. Deputy Minister was a very brilliant one. I am rather surprised by the response to the definition of child labour coming from the hon. Member for Akim Oda ( Mr. Osafo-Maafo).
Mr. Speaker, the reality is that international orgazations that are fighting to ensure the elimination of child labour must, as a matter of practicality, devise a very broad definition so that they can capture every practice that conceivably will fall within the framework of child labour.
Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that in carving out a broad definition there might be some penumbral areas which might be problematic, in the sense that we do not know where child labour begins and where proper parental guidance, bringing up the child ends. Mr. Speaker, we appreciate that there is that difficulty and that difficulty should not lead us to reject in toto the definition of child labour which has been devised by the international labour and anti-child labour movement.
Mr. Speaker, he focused specifically on cocoa farms. We all have been children working with our parents on farms before and we appreciate that there were some instances where we just felt it was a duty. We were learning from our parents and we were part of the family and carried
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Mr. Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon. Minister for Energy, do you have a point of order?
Mr. Adda 11:10 a.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do have a point of order. Indeed, I think my hon. Colleague is misleading this House. What the hon. Member of Parliament for Akim Oda said was in effect to guide the international community to define child labour to make provision for some of the training activities that help to make a child grow up with character, without necessarily jeopardizing its right to education and growing up in the right manner.
I do not think he denied the definition that engaging a child in labour would necessarily end up making the child better. He did acknowledge that in some cases the child could grow up now having the
opportunity to go to school and be used in hazardous activities. Therefore, my hon. Colleague should not mislead the House. He should guide us to understand that if we are dealing with the international community they must acknowledge the fact that the cultural nuances of our environment should be reflected in the definition so that we distinguish between what is part of our training process but does not necessarily jeopardize their likelihood in the future.
Mr. Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Hon. Member for Bawku Central, you may continue.
Mr. Ayariga 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I fail to
Mr. Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon. Member for
Bawku Central, you only comment on this; do not invoke any debate. Just comment on this, do not debate.
Mr. Ayariga 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I was
Mr. Osafo-Maafo 11:20 a.m.
On a point of order.
Mr. Speaker 11:20 a.m.
I must have to call
you before you raise any point of order. [Laughter.] Hon. Member for Akim Oda?
Mr. Osafo-Maafo 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I
Mr. Ayariga 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I will
not get back to the debate about the NGOs' definition and the international community's definition because I fail to see where the difference really is. I believe that the international community's definition is clearly consistent with the NGOs' definition.
Mr. Speaker, I was saying that the problem of child labour is not only in the rural areas, but most importantly, these days, you would find it in the urban areas. If you drive from here to Madina, along the traffic lights you would clearly see that many children are engaged in activities that, under whatever definition we try to place it, would qualify as child labour; not only because children are engaged in labour but in terms of the hazardous conditions at traffic lights where you find children trying to sell certain goods.
Mr. Speaker, as clearly indicated by the hon. Member who made the Statement, we have a comprehensive legislative framework that deals with the issue of child labour. The question is, why are we unable to address this problem if we have
a comprehensive legislative framework? Is it because we do not have adequate institutional framework to respond to the situation? If that is the case, then we in this country must strengthen the institutions that are responsible for enforcing this legislative framework.
How many of us have ever stopped at the traffic lights to enquire about the background of that little girl who is selling chewing gum and then try to trace up to the parents and find out why the parents have allowed the child to go and sell chewing gum by the traffic lights? How many police officers, or social welfare officers have ever stopped at traffic lights and taken these little kids to their families to find out why they are there? And how many of us are trying, institutionally to make sure that we respond to these issues?
Mr. Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Order! Order!
Mr. Ayariga 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, we also have to look at the issue of poverty as a cause of child labour. There is no doubt that there is a relationship between poverty and child labour, even though I am not necessarily saying that when you are poor, you should allow your child to engage in hazardous work. But poverty sometimes is an inducible factor and we need to work very hard to ensure that we address issues of poverty.
Mention was made of micro-finance schemes for parents, et cetera. The
Minister for Women and Children's Affairs (Hajia Alima Mahama) 11:20 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I wish to identify with the Statement and to make a few remarks, specifically on issues that have been raised on the floor.
Mr. Speaker, the international definition focuses on worst forms of child labour. Everywhere, it is recognised that there is child labour. You go to the United States of America, Europe, everywhere, they have children selling newspapers; it is recognized. Mrs. Thatcher in one of her statements said that she sold in her father's grocery; and that was child labour.
Mr. Speaker, our concern is with the worst forms of child labour. Some of them can be assigned to the mining industry; some can even be diving down the river to disentangle nets. Some of these can be described as the worst forms of child labour, but the international definition does not take issue with child labour.
Again, Mr. Speaker, even with the definition of the worst form of child labour, governments are called upon to progressively take measures to ensure that they reduce the worst forms of child labour towards eliminating it altogether. So Mr.
Speaker, for international NGOs to write reports to the international community to say that Ghana is engaged in the worst forms of child labour, especially in cocoa plantations, is false and we must not accept it; this House must not accept that definition.
If an international organisation writes to say that Ghana is engaging in worst forms of child labour in cocoa farms, it is a general statement. If even the international organisation observes a child working in a cocoa farm, that does not entitle the organisation to write to say that we are engaging in the worst form of child labour in our cocoa farms.
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Mr. Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon. Member for Lawra/Nandom, do you have a point of order?
Dr. Kunbuor 11:20 a.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, we are stretching this whole notion of child labour and the fact that there are children who go to assist their parents in the cocoa farms rather too far. The statistical evidence in this country shows that about 70 per cent of children who migrate and
Mr. Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon. Members, we do not want to debate this, we only want comments, please.
Hajia Mahama: Mr. Speaker, our Children's Act allows children between the ages of 15 and 18 years to work, except that these children must not work in the night, they should work between the hours of 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.; the children should not undertake hazardous work, which within our laws, we can also describe as a worst form of child labour.
Mr. Speaker, child labour in the mining and other sectors are areas that we need
to continue to work on and to educate our mining communities so that the hazards that our children face we will continue to work on them.
We also have child commercial sex workers, which can also be described as a worst form of child labour. My Ministry has undertaken research with different organizations and we are working together with other stakeholders towards providing vocational training for some of these children so that they can leave that work. In this direction, I would want to call on the men who also engage young girls in commercial sex that it is illegal under our laws and we need to be disciplined and disassociate ourselves from such interactions.
The Quest for Attainment of Middle Income Status:
The Energy Implications and Challenges
Dr. Kwame Ampofo (NDC -- South Dayi) 11:30 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a Statement on the energy implications and challenges of our national aspiration to become a middle-income country within the next decade or so. Mr. Speaker, in making this Statement, I intend no malice or mischief. My intention is only to draw the attention of this august House to the rapidly deteriorating services in the energy sector, in general and the electricity sub- sector, in particular and to underscore how this situation could undermine our quest to attain middle-income status.
Mr. Speaker, in recent times (and currently), the power sector has been characterized by rampant and even consistent power outages. Massive voltage fluctuations and destructive power surges have also become the order of the day. This has led to extensive damage to electric and electronic equipment and appliances
Dr. Kwame Ampofo (NDC -- South Dayi) 11:40 a.m.
Secondly, as the country is now in the process of building its commercial, industrial, housing and transportation infrastructure, large quantities of energy- intensive materials such as iron rods, steel and cement would be required. The use of heavy-duty, energy-consuming machinery and equipment would also need to be employed.
Thirdly, the process of urbanization would intensify and this would have profound effect on the amount and mix of energy consumed. As industry and the labour force become more concentrated in urban areas, transportation needs would grow, food and raw materials would be hauled over longer distances and finished products would be marketed over wider areas. This process would lead to substitution of modern, compact energy forms for the bulkier biomass/traditional fuels.
Fourthly, as the economy improves and as incomes grow, demand for commercial energy would also grow with them, leading to changes in the level and mix of final energy consumption in favour of electricity and petroleum products.
Fifthly, the availability of cheap consumer goods such as radios , motorcycles, cars, air-conditioners, refrigerators, et cetera would increase energy use in the medium - to long- term. The situation could be further worsened by the dependence of more and more people on inefficient, imported second-hand goods (refrigerators, deep- freezers, TVs, washing machines, electric
stoves, microwaves, et cetera) that have flooded and would continue to flood our market. This trend would lead to wasteful consumption of electricity that would raise energy demand in the economy thus putting avoidable stress on the electricity supply system.

Mr. Speaker, to attain the level of socio-economic prosperity of a country with GDP per capita of about $1,800, that is the level of Malaysia in 1987, our GDP in the years 2015-2020 in my estimation would have to be doubled to about ¢85 trillion at 1995 prices and exchange rates if population growth rate is to remain at the current high value. Such a performance of the economy would also require a doubling of total energy to about ¢50 million TOE which is over ten times what was required for the economy in 1995.

Mr. Speaker, assuming that by the period 2015-2020, the share of electricity in the energy economy of Ghana has reached about 15 per cent, we would require about 87,200 GWH of power per annum. This amount of power is more than ten (10) times all the power generated from our hydro resources in 1994.

In other words, to meet this future power demand, we would need over ten (10) of such generating capacity as the Akosombo Dam. Clearly, the magnitude of the energy implications of our development aspirations poses a great challenge to all of us, as there obviously would be several hard choices for us to make along the road to economic prosperity.
Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the major challenges would be the following 11:40 a.m.
Ensuring securi ty of energy availability and maintenance of high standards and quality of energy delivery service;
Alhaji Muntaka M. Mubarak (NDC -- Asawase) 11:40 a.m.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to associate myself with the maker of the Statement and to emphasize that it is very, very important that, as a nation, we all recognize the role energy plays in economic development. Mr. Speaker, earlier, hon. Members have
made mention of the importance of the energy sector. I would want to draw the attention of the sector Minister or Ministry to these few anomalies.
Mr. Speaker, as we sit here today, there is insufficient diesel supply in Kumasi and Greater Accra Regions, when we all know that diesel or energy for that matter, constitutes one of the most important factors of production. You would see most articulator trucks parked along the roads because they do not have enough diesel to move on. Meanwhile, factories in Ghana and across our borders would be waiting for the goods that they are carrying. Yet there is no sufficient diesel in the system to help these vehicles move across.
Mr. Speaker, another very important thing that we need to take notice of is the street lights in our cities.
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Mr. Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon. Member for Adenta?
Mr. Opare-Hammond 11:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It seems my hon. Colleague on the other side is misleading this House and the entire nation. There has not been any time in the history of this country since the New Patriotic Party (NPP) Government came into power that we have run short of fuel, diesel fuel -- [Interruptions.] It is true, Mr. Speaker. [Interruptions.]
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Order! Order!
Mr. Opare-Hammond 11:50 a.m.
It is therefore
wrong for him to say that cars and trucks break down on the highways as a result of shortage of fuel. Mr. Speaker, that is not right and we should ask him to correct

[CAPT. EFFAH-DARTEY (RETD)] that impression. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Alhaji Mubarak 11:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, my
rose
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon. Member, when
there is a point of order, nobody else can also speak on that matter.
Mr. Osei-Prempeh 11:50 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, it
is on a point of order of relevance. If I heard the maker of the Statement, it is on electricity, and not on other forms of energy. But Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. Member is veering off and needs to be brought back.
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Order! Order! Hon.
Member for Nsuta-Kwamang-Beposo, you have resumed your seat and probably so. Anyway, let us continue.
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon. Member for
Asawase, this is not a debate; you comment on it and let us go on.
Alhaji Mubarak 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Mr.
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon. Member for
Kwabre East, do you have a point of order?
Mr. Kofi Frimpong 11:50 a.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member on the other side is continuously misleading the House. Mr. Speaker, there is no shortage of diesel in the country. Mr. Speaker, he is reminding himself of what was going on in the NDC days -- [Hear! Hear!] For several times there was shortage of fuel in the country. Since the NPP Government took over the realms of administration, there has never been any shortage of fuel. This is what my hon. Friend is trying to tell us.
Mr. Speaker, he is telling us of what was going on during the NDC days and not during our time. So he is deceiving the House. He must withdraw and stop going that way. He must steer clear of waters and apologize to the House.
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Order! Order! We are
Alhaji Mubarak 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Mr.
Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one important thing that the sector Ministry has to take serious attention of is the frequent breakdown of street lights in our major cities. Mr. Speaker, one of the major streets in Kumasi runs through my constituency, from Anloga Junction to Airport roundabout. It is a ceremonial street. Everyone who comes to Kumasi goes through the street. Yet for the past one year, the street lights on this major street have been off. All efforts to get Electricity Company of Ghana to get them fixed have proved very difficult; and a lot more of our streets do not have their lights on.
Meanwhile, everyone of us will agree with me that at the end of every month, on our bill, there is an indication that we pay for street lights. I believe that it is important that the sector Ministry should

begin to find out how much electricity we consume by way of street lighting and the charges that they normally put on our bills as street light levies so that we will be able to put them on their toes to ensure that these street lights are permanently on.

Mr. Speaker, very recently, Electricity

Company of Ghana introduced a new measure that before they supply you with electricity in your premises, you will have to produce your building permit. We are all very aware that in this country, one of the biggest bureaucratic institutions that we have is in the area of land administration, where getting permits is so difficult. And if factories are going to be put up and then we insist that before they get electricity for them to go on with their production, they must submit their building permit, we will all agree it will take a very long period of time and then accessing electricity also takes a very long period.
rose
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Minister for Energy do
you have a point of order?
Mr. Kofi Addah 11:50 a.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker,
I do have a point of order. My hon. Colleague is misleading this House.
Nobody is deliberately creating problems so that they can get money on the side. The fact about the building permit is that many people who used to go and get electricity connected to kiosks and to buildings in which they were squatting would run away and not be able to pay those bills, and so this is part of the process to streamline the whole exercise. So it is not a deliberate effort.
If there is anything improper, the way he is talking about, it is not as a result of the policy of getting building permits. We must find a rational way of connecting houses and commercial establishments with electricity. And this is one way by which we do that. Therefore, he should not mislead this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon. Member for
Asawase, you may wish to wind up.
Alhaji Mubarak 11:50 a.m.
Thank you, Mr.
Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one other very important thing that I would want to draw our attention to is the attitude of Electricity Company staff. They seem to be more interested in refusing energy than allowing production to go on. For example, when there is any problem with a company's supply of electricity, the moment they get there, without even prior notice, all they do is to disconnect you and ask you to come to their office. I believe that the most appropriate way to help production in this country is to give them notice and possibly even take them to court and allow the company to run with the lease of electricity rather than to first disconnect and put the whole process of production to a halt while we go to resolve whatever problem that they have with you.
Mr. Speaker, the last point before I take
my seat is, sometimes in the daylight you run on our streets and you see most of the
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Mr. Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Minister for the Interior?
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
Thank you, Mr.
Speaker. Mr. Speaker, let me thank my hon. Friend for this Statement on the energy implications and challenges as we strive as a nation to become a middle income country. Mr. Speaker, let me also say that I was most impressed by the recommended policy actions that the hon. Member advocated. But I was also disappointed by some of the sweeping, inaccurate statements that he used to illustrate his points and also to introduce the subject.
An example, Mr. Speaker, was when he said
“. . . As if these were not enough, this year's People's Assembly held at the Centre for National Culture (CNC) in Cape Coast on Tuesday was brought to an abrupt end by power failure causing much embarrass-ment and security risk to His Excellency the President . . .”

Mr. Speaker, the only true thing about this Statement is that that power failure caused embarrassment and security risk to the President. But it was not the fault of the Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG); it was not the fault of the Volta River Authority (VRA). It was an internal
Mr. Speaker noon
Order! Order!
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
So, Mr. Speaker, there happened to be overloading in that particular building; so it was that meter that had a problem. In all other places, nearby houses in the area, there was electricity -- [Interruptions.]
Mr. Speaker noon
Order, order! Hon. Members, let us exercise sufficient patience.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
So Mr. Speaker, I think -- [Interruptions] -- I think that in introducing matters which are of that much importance, it is necessary that we do not bring in issues that tend to take away something from the very good Statement that was made.
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Mr. Speaker noon
Deputy Minority Whip,
Mr. E. T. Mensah noon
Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my hon. Friend, hon. Kan- Dapaah, alias “Affordability” is misleading this House. The Statement that was read, he accepted that that was a fact; that there was power outage there and that there was a problem out there. The President was there, so there was security risk. Yet he is going in circles and saying that the hon. Member being an acknowledged expert is disgracing himself by balancing the issue. The truth is that there was power failure and that the President was there and so that posed a security risk. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker noon
Hon. Minister for the Interior, you may wish to go on.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
Mr. Speaker, when we normally say there was power outage, we normally are saying ECG failed us or VRA failed us. The point I want to make is that on this occasion it was not the fault of ECG. It was not a distribution problem; it was not a generation problem. It was something that was the result of overloading in that particular building and that in nearby areas there was electricity. But Mr. Speaker, I think I can leave with the comments that my hon. Friend has made.
I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that I was also a little bit disappointed by some of the statements that hon. Dr. Ampofo made because I think he tried to oversimplify the issues. I can understand why people will make remarks as he was trying to make but I thought that with his expertise and having being an Energy Com-missioner before in this country, he is very much aware of the problem and that he would have tried to steer away from the oversimplification
that people who are not experts normally make.
Dr. Ampofo noon
Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is misleading the House and I think he is deliberately doing so because nowhere have I attributed the power failures to any institution. As I stated, I was making this Statement so that we draw attention to the problems and try to solve them together. That is why I went out of my way to list what I think, as he says, as an expert, the nature of the problems and went on to make recommendations.
The major one, I said, was that some of the things must be given legislative backing. These are very important things. Please, Mr. Speaker, he should not bring politics at all but rather go into the technicalities of the thing and let us accept that these are facts. I have avoided political issues in this thing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
Mr. Speaker, I think the point that I was making is that my hon. Friend has come up with a whole lot of problems within the energy sector and has gone forward to give some positive recommendations on policies; and the first one that he emphasized was the need for an energy policy. That presupposes that there was no energy policy; and all that I am doing is to bring to his notice that there is such a policy.
Dr. Ampofo noon
Mr. Speaker, again, on a point of order. I am rather disappointed at the hon. Minister's contribution because he has been the Minister for Energy before. He agrees that I am talking about things that I know and I am only trying to contribute, for us as a nation, to move forward because energy whether you like it or not is the limiting factor for our growth.
Mr. Speaker noon
Order! Order! Hon.
Members, it appears we will not have sufficient time to deal with this very important matter but whatever it is -- Minister for the Interior.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah noon
Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, but I just want to assure him that during the period that he was an Energy Commissioner, that problem was there. So he must not oversimplify it -- [Interruptions] -- He knows that during rainy seasons, these problems -- [Interruptions.]
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, it is important that when an expert is talking about an issue he does not oversimplify the problems, as I have tried to point out. But Mr. Speaker, I must say that I agree with him. I conceded at first that I agree with him that most of the recommendations that he was making were very positive and have to be taken into account.
Mr. Speaker, within the distribution system, the system losses are simply unacceptable and we need to do something about that.

Mr. Speaker, for a very long time, the Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG) did not even have a scanner system such that if a fault occurred somewhere, they did not have a means of knowing. In recent times, last year, we introduced a scanner system -- [Hear! Hear!] -- The result of that scanner system -- [Interruptions.]
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Order!
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
The result of that scanner system that we have introduced
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Order! Hon. Member for Upper West Akim, do you have a point of order?
Mr. Sallas-Mensah 12:10 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the former hon. Minister for Energy is grossly misleading this House. This scanner acquisition started in 1998 when we approved it in this House -- [Uproar] -- He was an hon. Member; he was here. So what is he talking about that they introduced scanner system -- [Interruptions.]
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Order! Order!
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Minister for the Interior, are you yielding to the hon. Minister for Communications?
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Prof. Oquaye 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, thank you. My hon. Friend, if he had the chance to, is seriously misleading the House. Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about approvals or whatever. No scanner reached this country until last year, for the first time as a means for scientifically diagnosing what has gone wrong with our system and then providing the answers scientifically. Mr. Speaker, that is the fact of the matter.
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Minister for the Interior, you may wind up.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
Just to wind up, Mr. Speaker, one thing I have learnt in politics is that there is a whole lot of difference between “I will do” and “I have done”, and that was the point I was trying to make -- [Hear! Hear!]
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/ Bamboi, do you have a point of order?
Mr. John Mahama 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that it appears the hon. Member has forgotten that he is no longer the Minister for Energy. The hon. Minister for Energy is here and he is winding up the whole Statement. Mr. Speaker, he has carried on for too long.
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/ Bamboi, you have no point of order. Let him continue and wind up.
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, as the Spokesman for the Opposition in charge of Energy, I did learn a lot from the hon. Member (Dr. Kwame Ampofo). As the hon. Minister for Energy, he gave me so many free ideas. When such an expert makes a statement, it is important that I also give him the benefit of the experience even if I learnt some of them from him.
But, Mr. Speaker, the last thing that he said and I want to believe I did not hear it correctly -- Mr. Speaker, I would want to find out from my hon. Friend whether
he did refer to some power sector reforms initiated by the National Democratic Congress (NDC). Mr. Speaker, I am sure he did not say that. He wanted to say that the excellent power sector reforms this Kufuor-led Government has pioneered and has started, he was wishing that we would be able to carry it to its logical conclusion.
But Mr. Speaker, I would want to assure him that, having started it, having pioneered it, there is no doubt that we will carry it to its conclusion.
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Member for South Dayi, this is not a question for you to answer. I need one more before I call on the hon. Minister for Energy
Dr. Ampofo 12:10 p.m.
We have to correct the records -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
I have not called you. Hon. Member for Bole/Bamboi.
Mr. John Dramani Mahama (NDC -- Bole/Bamboi) 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I think that this Statement is important and rather than trivialize it the way the hon. Member who last spoke has attempted to do, I think it is a clarion call on our country to wake up -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, obviously, I take a very strong exception to the use of the word “trivialize”. When such a scholarly statement has been made by an expert and a former student has responded to it, we do not call it “trivializing”. So Mr. Speaker, if he can withdraw that word, I think it will allow -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/
Bamboi, the word “trivial” seems rather too strong a word.
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the word “trivialize”. Mr. Speaker, there are various subtle means of taking away from a statement and that is what the hon. Minister was doing; that was “Mark Antonia”, just taking the stings out of the Statement.
But Mr. Speaker, I would want to say that what the hon. Member has done is a clarion call to this nation that we should sit up because the rate at which our energy consumption is growing, if we are not careful, in a decade or two to come, we would find that we do not have enough energy to power this country forward. And I think that the Statement could not have come at a much better time.
Mr. Speaker, he has done all the analysis and one does not need to go through them. But obviously, there are two major problems that we face here. We face problems of bulk supply, that is, making sure that Volta River Authority (VRA), which is a power generation company, is supplying enough power for ECG to be able to distribute. And Mr. Speaker, in that sense, I think that two main developments here are important. That is the arrival of cheap gas from Nigeria to power additional thermal generation and also the development of another hydroelectric dam.
Mr. Speaker, the Bui Hydroelectric Dam project has been on the drawing board for so many years. Mr. Speaker, it has been set back with the cancellation of the Brown and Root Contract by my hon. Friend there when he was Minister for Energy.
Mr. Speaker, the development of the Bui Hydroelectric Dam project has been set back many years. Up till today, we are still waiting for any clear indication that
that project is going to go ahead. But that project is critical if we are going to meet the energy needs of this country. Recently, I hear that the Chinese are being attracted to come and invest in building the Bui Dam. I hope that it comes to fruition because we have waited for so many years.

Mr. Speaker, go to Abossey Okai where they sell generators and ask any of them, and they will tell you that generator sales have shot through the roof.
Mr. K. T. Hammond 12:20 p.m.
On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is that for 36 years nobody had attempted any refurbishment of the system, that is why he finds the system in the way that we find it now -- 36 years!
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, that is gross misinformation. I have been a Member of this House since 1996 and I know how many loans we have approved in this House to improve the Electricity Corporation of Ghana (ECG) distribution network. Mr. Speaker -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Order!
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, electricity supply, especially in the north-east that the hon. Member -- [Interruption.]
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon. Majority Chief Whip, do you have a point of order?
Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:20 p.m.
On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I believe if the hon. Member on the floor has better particulars he should supply us with them. But to lamely say that he has been a Member of this House, loans have been contracted, and so conclude that those loans have come and have been put to use, Mr. Speaker, with respect to him, cannot be sustained.
He sitting down, Mr. Speaker, with respect to him, knows how many loans were contracted for the Bole/Bamboi road -- Were they put to use? Mr. Speaker, so the fact of the contracting of the loan will not mean that the money has been assessed and that it has been put to use.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon. Members, we are commenting on a statement. Hon. Member, please be brief; we do not have much time.
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, no loan was ever contracted for the Bole/Bamboi road; no loan has ever been approved in this House for the Bole/Bamboi road. Mr. Speaker -- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Order!
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, we are currently approving loans in this House for electricity generation. Mr. Speaker, by the logic of what he said, if we approve the loans on the floor of this House, he is asking me whether those loans are actually used. How can I tell? Mr. Speaker, so I am saying that, based on projects that have been submitted by the Electricity Company of Ghana, this House has approved loans that have been used to improve the power generation system.
But I am saying that when tariffs
Mr. Adda 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I think my hon. Colleague on the other side is misleading this House. Just because we are contracting loans or paying higher tariffs does not necessarily mean that services should improve even though in theory that ought to be the case.
Mr. Speaker, he ought to put this against the fact that there is a higher growth in demand in services. Many housing units are expanding throughout the whole country. We are going to all the other regions and districts. This demand on the services of the power sector is not always making it possible for us to do what we want.
Mr. Speaker, if you take a typical example of a house in Dansoman, a house that was supposed to have just a fan and perhaps a refrigerator is probably a house that is having maybe two deep freezers, five airconditioners and so on and so forth. These things are happening along the same lines or at the same time that we were contracting the loans and therefore it is putting pressure on the Electricity Company of Ghana as well as the VRA.
So if he wants to make a fair statement on this and not mislead this House, he should position his point against the growth in demand for energy resources and services in this country.
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I am just winding up on this.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Yes, please do that.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Are you winding up?
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will make a final point and it is about renewable energy. Mr. Speaker, we pay lip-service -- [Interruption.]
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Minister for the Interior, do you have a point of order?
Mr. Kan-Dapaah 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to make a clarification. Mr. Speaker, it is true that any time the PURC has announced tariff increases, ECG has come forward to say that it has not given them enough to take care of their investments and that all that they have had is to take care of increased operational cost. So one does not normally expect any increase to lead to that sort of improved system -- [Interruption.] It is true.
And Mr. Speaker, I can only advise my hon. Friend to consult with the energy experts on this issue after the House rises. Hon. Dr. Ampofo will tell him what the reality is -- Dr. Ampofo knows.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/ Bamboi, please wind up.
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, between 2001 and 2006, tariffs in this country have gone up in excess of 400 per cent
-- [Uproar.] Mr. Speaker, I do not want to believe that the operation cost of the Electricity Company of Ghana has increased dramatically by 400 per cent; that is the logic of what the gentleman wants to tell us.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon. Member, are you winding up?
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I am winding up. Mr. Speaker, we are paying about 8 cents per kilowatt hour which is one of the highest rates for electricity you will have in the world. And Mr. Speaker, for a former Minister of Energy to tell me that that high tariff does not guarantee -- it only goes to pay operational cost, I cannot understand what policy is working here.
But Mr. Speaker, my last point is about renewable energy. Mr. Speaker, we have always paid lip-service to renewable energy. Hon. Kan-Dapaah said that there is a committee in the Ministry of Energy or there is something in the Ministry of Energy working on renewable energy strategy. Mr. Speaker, until we move it from the point where we just pay lip- service, we will continue not to derive the benefit from renewable energy.
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Order! Let us have decorum in this House.
Mr. Mahama 12:20 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I think the
Mr. Speaker 12:20 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/ Bamboi, there is no need for any copy to be served on the Minister. There is no need at all. [Laughter.] All of us are always in possession of the Official Report.
Minister for Energy (Mr. Joseph Kofi Adda) 12:30 p.m.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to comment on the Statement made by my hon. Colleague.
Mr. Speaker, before I go into the substance of my contribution, I would like to revisit the point made by the hon. Member for Bole/Bamboi (Mr. John Mahama) and to state for the general public that it is important for us to recognize that the more houses we build and the farther away we get from the distribution points of the Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG), making demands on their resources, is something that we have to grapple with one way or the other in talking about improvement in their services.
Mr. Speaker, I can count a number of hon. Colleagues in this House who have gone to outlandish areas to build their houses and they constantly troop to my office, demanding that the Electricity Company of Ghana should move their service to those areas. These are things that the public ought to keep in mind so that they would not be misled by what he is saying.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member
rose
Mr. Speaker 12:30 p.m.
Hon. Member for Bole/ Bamboi, we are not debating.
Mr. Mahama 12:30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, just to correct the record; the hon. Minister is misleading the House. He creates an impression like when new premises are connected they do not start paying the tariffs; it is like they are being connected for free. They are connected and they pay the increased tariffs, and that is what we are complaining about.
Mr. Adda 12:30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, again,
if my hon. Colleague could tabulate the investment cost, the cost of these infrastructure to go out there over perhaps a month or three weeks during which period they do the connection and start deducting from the tariff that they are paying, I am also sure that he can tell me that those tariffs can negate the investment cost or write it down immediately. That is the point I am making. All the loans that are being contracted, all the funds that are being taken on board are also being used to expand to new areas, and therefore it is not necessarily all of them that go into immediate improvement of services.
I did, Mr. Speaker, mention the fact that we are not complying with some of the directives of the Energy Commission and therefore the stress on the equipment, the infrastructure that we have in the system, is such that we cannot always guarantee improvement of services even though we are working very hard towards that.
Mr. Speaker, I was commending the hon. Member who made the Statement for doing such an excellent job; I am only a little bit surprised at some of the points that he has made. Indeed, if he had looked at the Ghana Poverty Reduction Strategy II (GPRS II) Phase II document he would not have found the need to make this Statement here. Mr. Speaker, the sector Ministry took pains to work into its strategic development document the key issues that need to be addressed, and the sector has also elaborated on the policy
Mr. Adda 12:30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, as I speak, $2 million

On the issue of alternative sources of energy, Mr. Speaker, enough have been said about the renewable side, solar or windmills, even bio-diesel. All those things have all been planned for and resources have been made available to move on that. And so I think my hon. Colleague, as much as his points are relevant, it is a little too late and he should have consulted the Ministry before making this Statement.

Mr. Speaker, the deregulation that the Government was able to get through with the help of this House has made it possible for independent power producers to be flooding the Ministry with various proposals ranging from $30 million, $50 million to $500 million and above all looking to the supply of energy requirement of this country. I do not think there is any greater political will than being able to push through the deregulation effort which some of my hon. Colleagues on the other side opposed. We are beginning to see the benefit of that, Mr. Speaker, and this strategically would move us in the direction of achieving the goals of GPRS II agenda.

Mr. Speaker, we all recognize the
Mr. C. S. Hodogbey 12:30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker,
on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I do have a high respect for the hon. Minister but the point Ghanaians want to hear and the point made in the Statement is about distributions and power outages. For the hon. Minister to come to the floor to make a list of proposals of what the Ministry is intending to do, that is not what Ghanaians want to hear --[Inter- ruptions.] Ghanaians want to hear when outages would stop or reduce; when power would go to other parts of this country; but to give us a list of intentions, with due respect -- I have a lot of respect for the hon. Minister and I think he should address the issues made in the Statement -- [Interruptions.]
Mr. Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon. Minister, I am sure you are about to wind up. Are you winding up? We do not have much time.
Mr. Adda 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, yes, I am winding up. I think my hon. Colleague was not paying attention when hon. Kan-Dapaah and others made those contributions.
Mr. Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Please, wind up.
Mr. Adda 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I think he
ought to know that with the over-aged equipment that we have and inadequate infrastructure, if we are not able to put the investment back in there, we cannot achieve the level that we want.
Mr. Haruna Iddrisu 12:40 p.m.
On a point of
Mr. Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Yes, I know.
Mr. H. Iddrisu 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I have
been trying to catch your eye to raise a point of order. I can understand that the hon. Minister is new at the Ministry of Energy but he seems to be mixing very relevant issues of deregulation and power sector reforms.
Deregulation, as he ought to know,
deals with downstream main petroleum sector. So for him to be dealing with Power Sector Reforms, he should not attempt to mislead this House by throwing in issues of downstream in addressing it.
Mr. Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon. Minister for
Energy, are you winding up?
Mr. Adda 12:40 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Speaker. I just want my hon. Colleague to know that I may be new in the Energy Ministry but I have been a Cabinet Minister since the second term of President Kufuor and I have been privy to all the policy documents that have come to Cabinet. [Hear! Hear!] So I can educate him better on that.
Mr. Speaker, I think it is also important for him to know that deregulating downstream petroleum sector has implications for thermal power generation. He should go and investigate that and educate himself better.
Mr. Speaker, I was at the point of saying that we, as a nation, recognising the management problems we have with power sector agencies and also bearing in mind that various Legislative Instruments (L.I.s) that are going to transform them in terms of management structure operations would improve the system, have an obligation also as consumers to keep to certain things.
L.I.s 1815 and 1816, as I said, would come into force in December, and by December we must all be mindful where we go to build our houses and the kinds of requirements that we have, and so on and so forth. The room air-conditioners and all those other things that the hon. Member, an expert of energy talked about have all been captured in this Legislative Instrument that came through this House.
Indeed, we ought to have known that these L.I.s have been passed and they would come into force by December and therefore these issues would be addressed through those Legislative Instruments.
Dr. Ampofo 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order because I need to put on record what I really said.
The hon. Minister is deliberately misleading the House by making it appear as if I have stated in my Statement that prices of power or energy pricing should be low. If he reads what is there carefully, I said we must pursue full cost-recovery pricing, which is what we have all agreed to do, but try to maintain prices low so that production can be competitive.
So he has to read the whole Statement in full. Full cost-recovery is what we need; it does not necessarily imply that prices must be charged as high as we can because this is economics.
PAPERS 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon. Members, we are deferring item 6 on the Order Paper.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:40 p.m.
STAGE 12:40 p.m.
Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
This is the end of the Consideration Stage of Internal Revenue (Amendment) (No. 2), 2006 Bill.

Persons With Disability Bill
  • [Resumption of Consideration from 9/06/06]
    • Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon. Member for
    Kwadaso, clause 14, have you been able to resolve it?
    Ms. Josephine Hilda Addoh 12:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, we have not come together but I think we are in agreement that we replace “and as far as possible” with “progressively”, unless maybe there is a new development.
    Mr. Haruna Iddrisu 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker,
    I beg to move, clause 14, subclause (1), lines 1 and 2, delete “and as far as possible” and insert “progressively”.
    Mr. Speaker, this is a very important amendment we have proposed; whether we would accept to include “progressively” or not, it is still important to delete the phrase “as far as possible” from this particular provision. The rationale, for those hon. Members who were not present, is that if we say that rehabilitation centres shall be established in regions and as far as possible in districts, it does not create any obligation for the State to want to deal with it. With the permission of Mr. Speaker, I
    think that the new rendition should be:
    “ T h e G o v e r n m e n t s h a l l progressively establish rehabi- litation centres in regions and districts for persons with disability.”
    If we find that acceptable, we will remove for the deletion of the phrase “as far as possible”.
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    And we will put the word “progressively” in its place. Is that acceptable?
    Ms. Addoh 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, that is
    accepted.
    Question put and amendment agreed
    to.
    Clause 14 as amended ordered to stand
    part of the Bill.
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Clause 17 --
    rose
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon. Majority Chief
    Whip, are you proposing an amendment?
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, I just realized that in the preceding provision we deleted the words “and equipment” so if we are bringing them back then we must delete those words. I think we should rather use “tools and facilities”, so I guess we rather go with “tools and facilities” instead of “equipment” because earlier on we deleted the word “equipment”.
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    But there is no
    amendment proposed in respect of clause 17? [Interruption] -- Chief Whip, I do not see any proposed amendment for clause 17 at all.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 12:50 p.m.
    Mr.

    Speaker, no, there is no amendment but I was saying that in an earlier provision we deleted the word “equipment”. But the hon. Deputy Minister is saying that she is comfortable with it, so if we should leave it I do not worry. I just wanted, for consistency, to bring us back to it but if they have no problems I do not have any hard feelings.

    Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 18 -- Free education and special schools.
    Mr. H. Iddrisu 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, clause 18, paragraph (a), between “education” and “for” insert “at all levels”.
    Mr. Speaker, the proposed amendment
    is to give express meaning to the intention of the framers of the first sentence, which intends to provide free education for persons with disability. Mr. Speaker, the provision there is kind of vague, in the sense that already under the Constitution, free, compulsory, universal basic education is a guaranteed constitutional right, which is supposed to be free. I thought that by the insertion of the words, “at all levels” then it means that persons with disabilities can be assured that they are entitled to free education, whether it is at the basic, secondary, technical or the tertiary level.
    The rationale is that many persons with disability do not earn income; even if they do it is not adequate enough for them to be able to support their families. So it is to create a social safety net for persons with disability so that from basic through secondary, technical and tertiary levels persons with disability can be assured of the right to free education.
    So the amendment is just to give express meaning to what is already provided for. It is said that Government shall provide free education, I am just trying to give meaning to free education at all levels. Because if
    we say free education without extending it further, it may be misconstrued to mean only free universal basic education as enshrined in the Constitution; but if we include “at all levels” then we know that we are guaranteeing the right to free education for all persons with disability.
    I therefore urge all hon. Members to support this important amendment.
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Vice Chairperson for the Committee, what do you say to that?
    Ms. Addoh 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I entreat
    the House to reject the hon. Member's proposal. Article 25 of the Constitution does not talk about education at all levels, so in conformity with the Constitution I think we should reject the “at all levels”.
    Mr. Yaw Osafo-Maafo 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker,
    this motion should be rejected outright. Mr. Speaker, we are talking about a person with disability who has parents. The fact that they do not have sources of income does not arise. Somebody with disability, fundamentally, like a normal child, also has parents. Some parents can afford to look after their children at all levels; and constitutionally, we have a definition of providing free education in this country.
    If you say at all levels and somebody wants to take education to a particular level and the Government cannot afford it because of numbers, what do we do? He can take the Government to court and demand it as of right, so it should not be so. If ever, for whatever reasons a disabled person cannot afford education at a higher level, scholarship can always be applied for. And indeed, as of today, any disabled persons who have applied to the Ministry of Education for scholarship have been granted wholesale. So the question does
    Mr. Mahama Ayariga 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker,
    first of all, I think it is fundamentally erroneous for anyone to say that our Constitution does not intend to provide free education at all levels. Mr. Speaker, I think that one would have to carefully read article 25 of the Constitution, and with your permission -- [Interruption] --Mr. Speaker, that was what was said; she said that the Vice Chairperson of the Committee -- [Interruption.] --
    Mr. Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Go ahead, hon. Member.
    Mr. Ayariga 12:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, with your
    permission let us read article 25 of the Constitution and what it says. It says, and with your permission I quote:
    x x x x x
    “25 (1) (a) basic education shall be free, compulsory and available to all;”
    then clause 1(b) reads --
    “secondary education in its different forms, including technical and vocational education, shall be made generally available and accessible to all by every appropriate means, and in particular, by the progressive introduction of free education;”
    That is secondary education. Then let us go down to (c). It says, and I quote:
    “higher education shall be made equally accessible to all, on the basis of capacity, by every appropriate means, and in particular, by progressive introduction of free education.”
    So clearly, it is the intendment of our Constitution that we should gravitate
    towards free education at all levels beginning from the primary, to secondary and tertiary.
    Mr. Speaker, so if that is the intention of our Constitution and we are dealing with a small class of people, that is disabled persons, and we all agree that historically, this class has been subjected to all forms of discrimination -- first of all they are discriminated against by their own family members who might not even enrol them in school -- So we are making it compulsory and an offence not to enrol them. And we know that because of that attitude towards them, people might not help them pursue education to its highest level. And because of the numbers involved -- they are not many -- we are proposing that we should make it an obligation on the State to at least ensure that this small category enjoys free education.
    Please, it will not cost us much, so let us begin to implement the intention captured in article 25 of the Constitution by ensuring that in the case of disabled persons, they should enjoy free education at all levels; because that is consistent with the intention captured in article 25 of our Constitution.
    Mr. K.T. Hammond 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think my hon. Friend has read article 25 out of context. Mr. Speaker, you read precisely the point that he is making in article 1, the very first clause, and then you go to (a) and the (a) is very specific -- “Basic education shall be free”. That is the only section where they have free basic education. So if he is progressing from there and still reads the (a) into the (b), (c), (d) and (e), Mr. Speaker, he is misleading the House. The Constitution makes no such provision.
    Mrs. Gifty Eugenia Kusi 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I also want to add my voice that we should reject this amendment because if we go to clause 19, which we are going to get to very soon, it is saying that where a person with disability has completed his basic education but is unable to pursue further formal education, the Ministry shall provide the person with appropriate training.
    Mr. Speaker, as he rightly said we are to introduce free education “progressively”, and we are not yet there to provide free education at all levels. We would get there as the Constitution says but now, we cannot, do that. So let us pick those who cannot as the Ministry is doing already. Let us reject this amendment.
    Mr. Charles S. Hodogbey 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think we should reject the amendment on the grounds that “at all levels” means that even if the person has to reach Ph.D. level, the State has to care for him. At the moment, we do not even know the number of disabled persons in this country, therefore we have to think of how much burden we have to put on the State. Let us not think of politics as at today; let us think of politics of tomorrow; that
    tomorrow when you are there, you could be putting a burden on yourself. Therefore, we should reject the amendment.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I associate myself with the principle raised by the Vice-Chairman of the Committee. Yes, the motive underpinning the amendment appears quite laudable but I do not think that it is necessary to add “at all levels”.
    Mr. Speaker, what does free education mean? Free education is free education. It is not qualified here. It says “provide free education for a person with disability”. Mr. Speaker, I guess the drafting is wrong; it should be “to a person with disability” -- “Provide free education to a person with disability”. Fancy somebody having gone through basic, secondary, tertiary education, and the person wants to pursue his Masters or Ph.D. and the nation is obliged to provide for that person. Why? What justification are you providing for that?
    Mr. Speaker, so to say that the State should be tasked with providing free education at all levels no matter what, with respect to my hon. Colleagues, is neither here nor there. So whilst I understand the principle, I do not think it is necessary to add the words “at all levels”. What is there is under-standable and the Ministry should be given the responsibility to do the other things that are required to be done.
    Question put and amendment negatived.
    Ms. Addoh 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, clause 18, paragraph (b), line 2, delete “formal” and insert “regular”.
    Mr. Speaker, your Committee believes that special schools are also formal schools.
    Mr. Osafo-Maafo 1 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think this amendment must be rejected. In the vocabulary of the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports a formal education -- we have formal and informal. The “formal” is the regular education system of Government. So I really do not see why they want to substitute “regular” for “formal”. Formal education is what is understood normally as being the regular education system of Government. Therefore, that is semantics.
    Why do you want to put “regular” for “formal”, when in our own system when you talk about formal education it is what the Government provides normally? The regular school is what we describe as formal and we always have formal and non-formal, so we should retain the “formal” to capture the concept of the educational system in this country.
    Mr. Speaker 1 p.m.
    Vice-Chairperson, what do you say to this amendment; do you want to move it?
    Ms. Addoh 1 p.m.
    Yes, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker 1 p.m.
    You want to; you are persisting?
    Ms. Addoh 1 p.m.
    Not really, he is explaining the system as it pertains in Ghana.
    Mr. Speaker 1 p.m.
    So are you abandoning it?
    Ms. Addoh 1 p.m.
    Yes, Mr. Speaker.
    Amendment by leave withdrawn.
    Clause 18 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 20 -- Refusal of admission on account of disability.
    Ms. Addoh 1:10 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to
    move, clause 20, subclause (1), delete and insert the following:
    “(1) A person responsible for admission into a school or another institution of learning shall not refuse to give admission to a person with disability on account of the disability unless the person with disability has been assessed by a team comprising representatives from the --
    (a) Ministry of Health,
    (b) Depar tment o f Soc ia l Welfare; and
    (c) Ministry of Education,
    to be a person who clearly requires to be in a special school for children or persons with disability.”
    Mr. Speaker, I would like us to delete “Sports and Science” for a simple reason. We would like it to stand the test of time; the name of the Ministry can change. If the House admits that, I would like to make that proposal.
    Mr. Osafo-Maafo 1:10 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I
    think we have to look at this amendment
    Mr. Ayariga 1:10 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, the essence
    of the amendment clearly is to define appropriate authority in the original clause 20. And so, Mr. Speaker, clearly the hon. Member for Akim Oda who happened to have been the Minister for Education, Sports and Science for a long time is
    indicating that -- who was the Minister for Education; sorry for that -- who was the Minister for Education and Sports for a long time, clearly, is indicating that the Education Ministry is in the process of developing an authority with the competence to carry out this exercise.
    Therefore, the attempt to further define “appropriate authority” here by expanding it to include other Ministries is clearly inappropriate and inconvenient.
    Mr. Speaker, I will support the argument
    that has been put forward by the former Minister.
    Mr. Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Are you saying that we
    should abandon the entire amendment?
    Mr. Ayariga 1:10 p.m.
    That is so, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament is proposing that we rather insert “Ministry of Education” in place of “appropriate authority”.
    Mrs. Akosua Frema Osei-Opare 1:10 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, I do appreciate the need to have a Ministry that has the key responsibility. But there is a reason for having a team because this is already in place, that when children are being assessed, particularly those with dicey situations, it is not always clear whether they can be accepted or not. So this composition is to bring in the relevant expertise who then can assist the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports in assessing the suitability of that child to enter the institution or not.
    It is a practice; it is not something that we are now bringing on board. So I will propose that we can make it, “The Ministry of Education in collaboration with the Ministry of Health and the Department of Social Welfare . . .” There are special roles they can play in assisting the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports.
    Mr. H. Iddrisu 1:10 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think that the intention of clause 20 is clear. It is to ensure that persons with disability are not discriminated against and that after a careful assessment, they ought to be admitted into our formal educational institutions. And since the mandate is that of the Ministry responsible for education, with your indulgence, I would want to suggest a new rendition. We can maintain clause 20 (1) as it is, but in the third line, substitute “Ministry responsible for Education or an appropriate authority”.
    So it will now read this way, Mr.
    Speaker, with your permission:
    “A person responsible for admission into a school or other institutions of learning shall not refuse to give admission to a person with disability on account of the disability unless the person with disability has been assessed by the Ministry responsible for Education to be a person who clearly requires to be in special school for children or persons with disability.”
    Mr. Joseph K. Adda 1:10 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I also do appreciate the good points that are being made by the hon. Member for Akim Oda as well as my two other hon. Colleagues on the other side. I would have gone along with their proposal if we were looking at admitting kids into schools just in Accra or the urban areas where we are sure that some of the people from the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports would be mindful of all of the implications of their decision not to admit the kids into school.
    But when you begin to go out to the regions and the districts, people tend to be, I would not want to say erratic but they use their discretionary powers in a manner where they would not give any consideration to expert opinion. And here
    we are talking about the Ministry of Health being a Ministry which can actually assess whether or not health-wise these people are in the best shape while the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports would be able to look at the learning abilities.
    So I think there is a role here for the Ministry of Health. The same goes for the Department of Social Welfare, just because of the vulnerability issue. So I would want to go along with the amendment, the modified one by the Deputy Minister for Manpower, Youth and Employment in the way she put it -- “The Ministry of Education in consultation with Ministry of Health and Social Welfare . . .” because of the possible use of those discretionary powers that might discriminate against the kids in the more remote areas.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I rise to associate myself with the points raised by the Minister for Energy. Mr. Speaker, as he said, implementation of basic policy guidelines and laws could become a bit difficult as one veers off the urban centres and the big cities. So for that reason, we should be emphatic on who or which body we are placing some responsibilities on. And that is why I believe the amendment is coming in the name of the Committee; that we define the “appropriate authority” in this context so there cannot be any room for prevarication. We would know that this responsibility rests on this body. And Mr. Speaker, this law rests in the bosom of the Ministry of Manpower, Youth and Employment.

    Mr. Speaker, it is their responsibility to ensure that the right thing is done. So in appropriating responsibility, one should ensure that they are also included so that
    Mr. Alex N. Tettey-Enyo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I would also want to associate myself with the proposal being made that we place the responsibility of assessment right at the door of the Ministry responsible for education because that is what it is at the moment. The only assessment centre we have now and for which reason we are inviting partners to help us to expand the assessment centres in the country is that of Achimota Assessment Centre.
    The responsibility over this exercise is given to the Ministry responsible for education. Unless we want to shift the responsibility to the Ministry responsible
    for the Department of Social Welfare, I would like us to place the responsibility with the Ministry responsible for education.
    Mr. Yaw Osafo-Maafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think we have to get certain points clear. We are talking about placement of basic responsibility. The clause starts with this: “A person responsible for admitting into a school …” Both regular schools and specialized schools are all under the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports. The Ministry of Education, Science and Sports is responsible for admission of children, no matter the type of these children.
    Therefore, if we want to define the placement of responsibility, it is different from the experts who will be involved in assessing. And that is what people are getting confused with. The Ministry responsible for education, as we do at Achimota Assessment Centre, uses experts. They use experts from the Ministry of Health and others to do that, but the responsibility is squarely on the shoulder of the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports and we should not take that away.
    We are talking about admission; and admission, whether to a special school or to a regular school or to formal school rests with the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports. The Ministry of Education, Science and Sports will not use ordinary teachers to do the assessment because they do not have the expertise. The expertise will differ from occasion to occasion and therefore, let us put the responsibility squarely on the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports and let them compose the team to do it, as they are already doing very ably at Achimota. So the question of Department of Social Welfare, Ministry of
    Mr. Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Deputy Minister for Manpower, Youth and Employment?
    Mrs. Frema Osei-Opare 1:20 p.m.
    No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do agree that we should put the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports as the main responsible Ministry, the lead Ministry. That is not in doubt and we accept that. What we are saying is that we do not want it to be incidental, particularly as the former Minister said, that there may be places where people may act on their own and say that this child cannot come and yet with the expertise of the Ministry of Health and the counselling that the Department of Social Welfare provides in facilitating
    these processes, we may find that the child could be admitted to the school.
    So we are agreeing to the main responsible Ministry being the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports but we are saying, let us not leave it in doubt as to whom they should collaborate with. This is because they have essential roles to play and we do not want chances taken elsewhere when our eyes are turned on the other side.
    Mr. J. K. Gidisu 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, though I am a member of the committee which sat on the proposed amendment, and having listened to the other comments coming up, I think we are going to rather compound the situation if we demand a committee involving the Ministry of Health, and Department of Social Welfare, more especially because when you go to the district level, not all districts have the Department of Social Welfare -- [Interruption] --Mr. Speaker, I can say that not all the districts have the Department of Social Welfare. They exist in name but the offices are not there -- [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon. Member, address the Chair and do not be distracted.
    Mr. J. K. Gidisu 1:20 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, so the point I want to make is that, like my other hon. Colleagues who said that we should limit it to the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports which has the primary responsibility for admissions, no matter the child's state of health, we should limit it to the Ministry of Health. And I would want to go with that new rendition as suggested by the hon. Member for Tamale South (Mr. Haruna Iddrisu).
    Alhaji A. B. Sorogho 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I am a little confused as to what is happening because watching and listening to all the comments coming from both

    sides, I am in no doubt that we need to really support what the former Minister for Education, Science and Sports who did not serve very long but did very well in that Ministry said. Mr. Speaker, we all know that even as we speak now, if somebody is sick, the person is sent to the Ministry of Health and then they compose a medical team to assess whether the person can be sent outside for medical attention or not.

    Even though we know that there are so many other Ministries, the Ministry responsible is the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports. And Mr. Speaker, I am beginning to be worried whether it is going to be left so that each person can just sit down and determine that “look, you are ugly, you belong to this party, I am not going to allow you to enter” or there is going to be a policy by which, from the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports level, it goes through the region and to the district.

    If we have this, I do not see where people should even fear that if you allow it, there may be other areas where the people will not want to do what the Ministry says -- no, Mr. Speaker.

    Mr. Speaker, I think that we will be compounding our problems if we do decide to say “in collaboration with the Department of Social Welfare or Ministry of Health”. We know for sure that when it comes to technical matters, whether it is written or not, Ministries consult each other, teams are composed and consultants are drawn from various areas to enrich whatever committee.

    I believe that since the emphasis is on admission into schools, admission is done by one Ministry and that is the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports, unless I am told that there is a different Ministry that admits people with disability.

    If that is not the case, Mr. Speaker, I do not see why there should be a problem. We should all go and say that as the former Minister said, the thing should be left for the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports to determine. The Ministry in its own wisdom will definitely draw other people when it comes to assessing the special characters of a person with that disability because a blind man will be different, a deaf man will be different, somebody who cannot walk will be different.

    So you need expertise from various angles and there may even be a time when Social Welfare and Health will not even matter at all and it will be for the Ministry to look for which appropriate Ministry to help in this instance. Immediately we start mentioning other Ministries and those two Ministries will not even come in, are we now going to come back and say because this Ministry's name was not mentioned it will not be their responsibility to help? Mr. Speaker, I think we should leave this thing to the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports so that they themselves, as it is being done, can work and then we get the thing going.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, hon. Sorogho has spoken at length and he kept repeating the same point, with respect to him. Mr. Speaker, the issue is, as advanced by the hon. Member for Akim Oda, that as we speak today, there is just one assessment centre at Achimota, and the Member admits that even today, even though it falls within the purview of education, they constitute a team and the team necessarily involves the Ministry of Health and the Department of Social Welfare.
    Mr. Speaker, the fear is that if one should say that this thing should be done by the Ministry of Education Science and

    Sports, then if you go to the rural areas, anything could happen. They perhaps will not bring in these people who need to be present. Mr. Speaker, so the issue is, if we agree that the team involves personnel from the Ministry of Health, the team involves personnel from the Department of Social Welfare, what is wrong in stating it in the Act that we need to get them?

    What is wrong, instead of leaving it to the discretion of somebody who would say that now the discretion is for me, it should be done by the Ministry of Education and so officials from the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports do the assessment themselves, even though we do know that we making the law today believe that it should involve representatives from these other areas? What is wrong if we go further to state it? How does it derogate from what we are doing?

    So in order not to give discretion to some officials who may abuse it, particularly in areas that are far from cities and urban settlements -- Mr. Speaker, I believe that if we go along with the formulation subject to the amendment -- the further amendments that have been moved by the Vice-Chairman -- Mr. Speaker, I believe we will be comfortable and we will be doing the right thing.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon. Members, we have two amendments. The first one is what appears on the Order Paper and the other one is the one proposed by the hon. Member for Akim Oda (Mr. Osafo-Maafo), that we delete the words “appropriate authority” and in their place insert “Ministry responsible for education”.
    Ms. Addoh 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, there is a third amendment, that it becomes the responsibility of the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports but in collaboration with the other two institutions -- Ministry of Health and Department of Social Welfare.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Are you therefore saying that there are two, in other words, that you are abandoning what appears on the Order Paper? In effect, that is what you are doing.
    Ms. Addoh 1:30 p.m.
    Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am going in for the modification, that it becomes the responsibility of the Ministry of Education, Science and Sports but in collaboration with Ministry of Health and the Ministry responsible for social welfare.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Osafo-Maafo 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I challenge your ruling. We are saying that -- I think there was something wrong with the Question; we have to be very clear. The question is that there was a further amendment made -- the further amendment was “in collaboration with these two institutions”, but there is an argument that it should be a primary function of Ministry of Education, Science and Sports period. Without “in collaboration”. Which of the Questions was put?
    Mr. Speaker, I think Members were not too clear because the original amendment as it stands was further amended and therefore that complicated the matter for all of us.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon. Members, we have to make progress. Nobody has really won, as far as I am concerned, the Ayes still have it. Let us continue. Or if you would want to reflect on this, we may decide to defer it and then you can come back later so that we will get the questions quite clearly. You are agreeable? Yes, we will defer that; we want to do justice to this situation.
    Clause 21 -- Special education in
    rose
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    There is no amendment there.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, just a small drafting problem. The second line, after “region” there should be a “,” and the insertion of the word “a” and then “training institutions” the “s” should go.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Chief Whip, is it a question of drafting?
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:30 p.m.
    Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is what I am pointing to so that they will take care of it.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Hodogbey 1:30 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, even though I am a member of the Committee, I think at one of our meetings -- [Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Which clauses are you referring to?
    Mr. Hodogbey 1:30 p.m.
    Clause 21 -- Braille writing and reading has become outmoded now in all advanced countries so we decided that instead of saying “Braille writing and reading”, we should put “appropriate technology there”. That was what we decided at one of our meetings, so if we put here “braille writing”, I do not think it will go with the changing technology in the world. Because we have programmes like JAWS -- nobody is using Braille any more.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Vice-Chairperson, what do you say to this? Do you want us to
    defer it for further consideration?
    Ms. Addoh 1:30 p.m.
    Yes, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Clause 21 is also deferred.
    Clause 22 -- Child accompanying a person with disability to beg.
    Ms. Addoh 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, clause 22, delete.
    The explanation is that the original clause portrays persons with disability as the only culprits of begging and it is therefore discriminatory. So the Committee proposes that we delete that.
    Mr. Ayariga 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that clause 22 (1) creates an offence that in my opinion, we should consider carefully before we decide to delete. Mr. Speaker, it says, “a person shall not request a child to accompany a person with disability to beg”.
    Mr. Speaker, whereas the crimi- nalization of begging is an issue that we might not agree with, asking a child to accompany a disabled person to go and beg is something that we might want to consider having in our legislation. I do not know whether those who are proposing that we should delete the entire clause 22 do not want us to look at the issue of those who ask children to accompany disabled persons to go and beg.
    I know that it has become the trade of some people to organize disabled persons, organize children and get the children to accompany disabled persons and beg and at the end of the day they share the proceeds; and even though we might not want to punish the disabled persons,we
    Mr. David Oppong-Kusi 1:40 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, I would like to support my hon. Friend over this particular clause. I think that we do not need to delete the whole clause. We need to keep clause 22 (1) because inherent in that is an offence. We have just finished discussing child labour and all those issues. So it is not just about begging, but as he has said, asking a child to accompany somebody will then be criminalized. So we should not throw the whole clause away but keep clause 22 (1).
    Mr. Haruna Iddrisu 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I
    rise to support the proposed amendment that the whole clause be deleted because even under our Criminal Code, begging is already an offence. I think that there has been some public discussion. I heard some strong comments from the Executive Director of the Centre for Democratic Development (CDD), Prof. Gyimah-Boadi, stating that they had made presentations to this honourable House to take particular interest in this particular provision, and they took serious exception to the fact that persons with disability were being discriminated against.
    After all, begging is not the preserve of only disabled persons. In this country, Mr. Speaker, even at the gate of Parliament House, I am sure if we need somebody who may properly qualify as a beggar we may find him here as an able-bodied person. Therefore, the whole clause is superfluous and the entirety of it must be deleted. I support the Vice- Chairperson on this amendment.
    Mrs. Kusi 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I want to
    agree with the proposal that clause 22 (1) should be maintained because the children being used by these disabled persons are
    being deprived of their education and training. So if they would want to beg they should not involve the children and waste their whole lifetime helping them to beg. I support the hon. Member for Bawku Central, Mr. Mahama Ayariga.
    Mr. Inusah Fuseini 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I
    rise to support the amendment proposed by the Chairman that the whole provision be deleted. Mr. Speaker, the basic reason is that it is discriminatory and frowns upon our Constitution. To say that a person shall not request a child to accompany another person with disability is to suggest that a person can ask a child to accompany an able-bodied person to go and beg. It means that this provision will discriminate against persons who are able-bodied and using children to beg.
    So if we want to prohibit children from going about with persons, able-bodied or disabled, then we should do so. But to say that they should not only go with persons who are disabled will mean we are discriminating against persons with disability.
    Mr. Osafo-Maafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker,
    I think we should support the Deputy Chairperson's position. To start with, it is a criminal offence to beg and that is in our Criminal Code already. And if we go out of our way to put this clause we would be connoting something -- because begging is not the preserve of the disabled. There are people begging who are not disabled and therefore this should not find its way in this law. We would be discriminating against the disabled and therefore I think we should delete the whole clause.
    Mr. Ayariga 1:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, it is not
    about whether I have lost or not. Mr. Speaker, I think that we are making an erroneous assumption that when we are legislating in respect of disabled persons

    then every other thing that even has to do with able-bodied persons must be captured, which is not the case.

    This is a specific legislation about disabled persons and we are looking at practices that relate to disabled persons. The hon. Member and I would agree that when you drive in town all we see are disabled persons accompanied by children who are begging. So the point is that I am against criminalizing begging but this provision does not even criminalize begging as such; it criminalizes begging by disabled persons at public places and it provides a very restrictive definition of public places.

    I am against criminalizing begging anyway, whichever, whether at public or private or religious places and so on. But I am saying that there is an aspect of clause 21 that might be very useful, which is the practice of having children accompany disabled persons to go and beg. I am saying that in the context of the debate that we had this morning about child labour, et cetera, we might want to criminalize that practice of having children accompany disabled persons to go and beg.

    If in principle we are not against that then let us consider it. But if we think that to make it better and look non-discriminatory, we should include “disabled or able bodied persons”, fine, we can do that. But the principle for me is that let us review our position on those who have engaged in the practice of getting children to accompany disabled persons to go and beg.

    I think there is something there that we can make good use of in terms of having a legislation that criminalizes that practice, that is all that I am saying. But most of the provisions of clause 21, I equally agree that we should delete them except 21 (1); there is something there that we

    can preserve.

    Question put and amendment agreed to.

    Clause 22 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clauses 23 and 24 ordered to stand part

    of the Bill.

    Clause 25 -- Importation of non-

    conventional vehicles.
    Ms. Addoh 1:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I beg to
    move, clause 25, subclause (1), add a new paragraph as follows:
    “(1) (a) An able-bodied person may import a vehicle adapted or modified for use by persons with disability with the approval of the Minister.”
    Mr. Ayariga 1:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, I think that the introduction of “An able-bodied person” in the proposed amendment does not really capture the point, to me. We can simply leave it out for it to read as follows: “a person may import . . .” and that will include any other person, whether disabled or able-bodied, that will be captured under that provision and so we do not need to add “able-bodied person”; we may simply say “a person may . . .” And when we say “a person may. . .”, it may even include legal entities like a corporation, a company or whatever it is.
    So to restrict it to able-bodied persons, for me, does not advance the purpose of the amendment.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, the hon. Member for Akim Oda (Mr. Yaw Osafo-Maafo) is comfortable but what obtains here in clause 25 is to allow for persons with disability to import their own vehicles made specifically for them and to prevent others who are not disabled from bringing in these vehicles.
    Now, the provision that he is inserting
    is giving the power to anybody to do that, except that if you are not disabled yourself then, you may need clearance from the Ministry. That is all that he is asking for.
    Mr. Ayariga 1:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, the issue of
    clearance from the Ministry is dealt with in subclause 2, which is based on clause 1, so I do not get the distinction that he seeks to draw that when persons with disability import them then they do not need clearance but when an able-bodied person imports the vehicles then that person will need clearance from the Ministry. Subclause 1 talks about importation but subclause (2) does not discriminate; it simply refers to subclause 1.
    So I am saying that if we limit these whole arrangements to only able-bodied persons or disabled-bodied persons -- If we read the proposed amendment “able- bodied persons . . .” I believe that it is meant to cure the defect in the earlier provision which is that only disabled persons should do this. I am saying that we can still capture the essence of this amendment by just saying that “a persons may import . . .” and we will still capture the essence of the amendment that has been proposed. I would like to hear from the proponents of the amendment whether
    the expression “a person”, will not still capture the essence of the amendment.
    Mrs. Frema Osei-Opare 1:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, I think the amendment proposed by the hon. Member who just spoke (Mr. Ayariga) should be considered. This is because really the effort was to ensure that disabled persons can import but then we also realised that others may import on their behalf -- organisations and others or even car dealers. So we felt that we should also make provisions for that. We were actually also concerned about a situation whereby adapted vehicles are imported, they get exemptions and then re-adapted -- with no offence meant -- at Magazine to make it able-bodied friendly vehicle after they have gotten the exemption.
    So we were really concerned about that. That was why we tried to separate them so that with the able-bodied persons the Minister will have the chance to assess whether there is really genuine reason and also enable them to track the use of those vehicles so exempted.
    Mr. Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    So what are you
    suggesting? That we should delete “An able-bodied”?
    Mrs. Osei-Opare 1:50 p.m.
    Mr. Speaker, to be
    honest, we want disabled persons to get exemptions but we are also concerned about people abusing the privilege and therefore we brought in this idea that if one needs to get clearance from the Minister, if he or she is an able-bodied person, then it means the Minister can assess and track the handling of those vehicles after they have been imported.
    So if we are to make it “able-bodied persons”, I am wondering whether we would have another clause that actually would deal with the abuse of this privilege. That is all. But I get the point he is making that if we say a disabled person can import and an able-bodied person can import then
    Mr. Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    If you need further
    considerations and you would want us to defer it so that we all put our heads together, we will. We do not want to spend time on that; we will defer clause 25.
    Clauses 26 and 27 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon. Members, it is about 2.00 p.m. and therefore we would want to take an adjournment at this stage.
    It is 2 o'clock and we are adjourning
    till tomorrow.
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Speaker, considering the mood of the House, I beg to move, that we do adjourn until 10 o'clock in the forenoon. But Mr. Speaker, I would plead, with respect and with your indulgence, that tomorrow we start early because there is so much to be done.
    Mr. Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon. Majority Chief Whip, what are you saying? That we should start early? [Interruptions.] At 10 o'clock?
    Mr. Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu 1:50 p.m.
    Mr.
    Mr. Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    You do not have to move,
    it is 2 o'clock. The House is adjourned.
    ADJOURNMENT 1:50 p.m.
  • The House was adjourned at 2.00 p.m. till 14th June, 2006 at 10.00 a.m.