Debates of 26 Jul 2010

MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:40 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:40 a.m.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 10:40 a.m.
Hon Members, Correction of Votes and Proceedings of Thursday, 23rd July, 2010.
Page 1 ... 6 -
Mr Ambrose P. Dery 10:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
on page five, item (iii), the Members who were absent with permission, my name is omitted there and rather, it appears on page six as having been absent. I had duly filled the forms to be absent on Friday. So it is an omission not to have my name among those who were absent with permission.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 10:40 a.m.
Thank
you.
Page 6 --
Mr E. T. Mensah 10:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, page
six, item 36, I was present; I was not absent on that day but I have been listed under those who were absent.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 10:40 a.m.
Thank

The Votes and Proceedings of Friday, 23rd July, 2010 is hereby adopted as corrected.

Hon Members, the Official Report

dated Thursday, 15th July, 2010.
Dr Anthony A. Osei 10:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 10:40 a.m.
All
right. Delete “are” so that it reads thus: “... matters that if interrogated properly ...”

The Official Report of Thursday, 15th

July, 2010 as corrected is hereby adopted as the true record of proceedings.

Item (3) - Questions.

Hon Minister for Employment and Social Welfare?

Question number 475 stands in the name of Hon George Boakye, Member for Asunafo South.
Mr Augustine C. Ntim 10:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Member is not in the Chamber and he has asked me to crave your indulgence to ask the Question on his behalf.
ORAL ANSWERS TO 10:50 p.m.
QUESTIONS 10:50 p.m.
MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT 10:50 p.m.
AND SOCIAL WELFARE 10:50 p.m.
Minister for Employment and Social Welfare (Mr E. T. Mensah) 10:50 p.m.
Mr Speaker, before I answer the Question, let me crave your indulgence to, for the purpose of the record, correct an impression which was created here, that I had run away.
This “Ken Korankye”, the media -- he said certain things. I want to say that
when I was leaving, I filled the Leave of Absence Form and personally handed it in to the Majority Secretariat.
In addition to that, the Chief Director wrote that I was going out on official duties and that I would not be around. I spoke to my Friend or the Hon Member who would ask the Question on labour that I would wish that my Deputy came in to answer the Questions but he pleaded - He is here and he can corroborate it -- that he would want me to answer the Questions myself. So, that is where we left off and I spoke to the Hon Majority Leader and it was agreed.
So I was surprised when I read on the Internet when I was outside that I had run away and that Ministers, Members of Parliament were after my blood. It is unfortunate and I think the media's recklessness would have to be put to sleep.
I want Ken Korankye to know that I love this House and I am loved by people in this House and nobody in this House would go after my blood for not coming to answer a Question. There is no Question that I cannot answer; if I cannot answer, I will ask for time to go and research and come and answer the Question.
I thank you, Mr Speaker, for indulging me.
Mr Speaker, the ICCES is an agency under the Ministry of Employment and Social Welfare with policy objective to increase access of young persons to skills acquisition for productive employment.
The vision of ICCES is to reduce youth unemployment and rural-urban drift with its attendant effects like juvenile delinquency, child exploitation and abuse, teenage pregnancy, drug abuse and other social evils.
Since its inception in 1987, under the PNDC regime, the ICCES has trained 100,000 unemployed youth in order
to render them employable within and around their own communities.
A total of 6,000 youth are under training at any given time in ICCES throughout the country.
The ICCES is currently providing skills training of 2-4 years duration in 65 centres in 52 districts and in nine regions of Ghana except the Upper East Region.
Mr Speaker, I have listed the regions and the towns in which these employable skills are provided:
Ashanti Region --
Ejisu Juabeng Muncipality (Baworo ICCES), (Akutuase ICCES)
Asante Akim North Municipality (Dwease Praaso ICCES)
Atwima-Nwabiagya Dis t r ic t (Nerebehi ICCES)
A t w i m a - M p o n u a D i s t r i c t (Otaakrom ICCES)
Bosomtwe District (Tetrefu ICCES), (Konkoma ICCES)
Atwima Kwanwoma District (Twedie ICCES)
Amansie Central District (Afoako
ICCES)
Offinso District (Amoawi ICCES)
Amansie East District (Abosamso (Asiwa ICCES)
Bekwai Municipality (Ofoase Kokobeng ICCES)
Kumasi Metropolitan -Kumasi Prod. Unit (Edwenase ICCES)
Ejura Sekyedumase Distr ict (Ejuraman/Aning ICCES)
Brong Ahafo Region
Asutifi District (Gyedu ICCES)
Asunafo District (Akrodie ICCES)
Mr Ntim 10:50 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I thank the Hon Minister for the comprehensive Answer so given but bringing him to the last paragraph on page 36, if I may read part of it:
“With the Government's ‘Better Ghana Agenda' and its commitment to job creation, it is in the interest of all stakeholders, that all unemployed Ghanaians especially the youth, are given employable skills and encouraged to set up their own businesses.”
Mr Speaker, you would agree with me that the major stakeholder in this context is the Ministry of Employment and Social Welfare. May I find out the Ministry's level of commitment towards the development of ICCES in the 2009 Budget and what plans he has for the development of ICCES and the various youth centres with respect to the 2010 Budget?
Thank you so much.
Mr E.T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, our commitment as a Ministry is total and absolute but we have a limitation. The limitation is what we link up with the provision that was made in the 2009 Budget--and I spoke about it. We prepare the budgets which are wishes for tooling, retooling and making enough money available for qualified people to train people out there but when it comes to the nitty-gritties, they reduce our budget and then we find ourselves in a situation where we cannot do anything.
So the stakeholders, Government is also informed and interested and we are saying this here that we all take this issue seriously to tool and retool. Once that is done, our youth will acquire employable skills.
Mr Ntim 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, from 1987 to date, when UNICEF and other UN agencies handed over ICCES to Government, there has not been any proper administrative appraisal to oversee the objectives and visions underlying the establishment of ICCES, hence this numerous challenges. Would the Hon Minister consider establishing a board that will help the Ministry to address these challenges?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, with the appraisal, I think we are ahead of this question. We have set up a committee, which is doing performance and financial audit and also addressing the numerous petitions that have been sent to the Ministry, five, six years ago. The Committee, is currently working and when it finishes, we will then see our way clear. The issue that he raised, we want a board for them and we also would want to have a management board because it is such an important institution. When I read about them and why they were set up, I think that, as a people, we have not done justice to this thing, which is so important

to us. So some work is being done.
Mr Ntim 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, could the Hon
Minister tell whether there is any legal backing to support the establishment of ICCES and other youth centres in the country?
Mr E.T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, there is some legal backing, otherwise, there is no way they will be getting their salaries from the Consolidated Fund. There is and we are saying that we are going to review whatever is there and then improve upon it.
Dr Ahmed Y Alhassan 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the Hon Minister, in view of the fact that there is not a single centre in the Upper East Region and very few, as few as three in the Brong Ahafo Region and just a single in the Northern Region, whether he would consider establishing a few more centres in the northern half of the country to service the teeming youth in those areas.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the vision of the Ministry is to have at least, one centre in each constituency. When I read about ICCES, and when I went there, I was really very happy that if we should do something about this and put some money in, the situation of rural-urban-drift and unemployment would be a thing of the past.
So definitely, after we have assessed the situation based on the report that would come, our proposal would be that, we have, at least ,one in each constituency, which means that we will cover 230 constituencies and 230 centres instead of what we have at the moment.
Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on the same issue, I would
have thought that the aim of ICCES was very relevant to the northern sector. I see that the Northern Region also has only one and our Hon Colleague has said the Upper East Region has nothing at all.
Is the Hon Minister giving us a time frame when the Northern Region and the Upper East Region would be furnished with such centres to give employable skills to the youth as we believe that those are the areas that are in real need of this relative to the other regions? And when would New Juaben also be included?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, as I said, after the Report of the Committee assessing the needs of ICCES, we would increase the numbers and our vision is the 230 constituencies -- The 230 constituencies, to start with, would be involved.
We also said we wanted to engage the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development because if the Districts and Municipal Assemblies were up to their task, they are the ones who should embrace this concept. They have a responsibility in their Legislative Instruments (L.I.), all of them, to support such educational institutions.
This is a government one, so we will engage them and ensure that they support us. But as to the question of when, as soon as we receive the report and analyse it, we would come out with our programme for the increase in the numbers and New Juaben would definitely get it because I am also a Koforidua boy.
Mr Alfred K. Agbesi 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, there is this perception that rural-urban drift occurs a lot in Ghana. It is mentioned that there is always a drift from the North towards the South. I want to know from the Hon Minister why the Upper East Region has not been given a single centre. This is because we are saying that the aim is to avoid this urban-rural drift and the Upper East Region has been left out.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I also asked the question why Upper East Region had been left out when I read the handing-over notes and also looked at the Legislative Instrument which set up the ICCES. And as I said, we are going to address it. It would definitely be addressed after we have assessed the needs of ICCES as it is now.
Mr Joseph Kofi Adda 11:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Hon Minister if there are plans for any collaborative funding arrangements between the Government of Ghana and donor agencies or other international financial organizations to support the strengthening of the ICCES facilities and if so, which organisations is he working with so far.
Mr E.T. Mensah 11:10 a.m.
Mr. Speaker, yes, I have said it in my Answer before he came in and as one of the old boys who used to be in that block, he is aware that the Ministry has been doing some work with the donor agencies, namely, the Department for International Development (DFID), United States Agency for International Development (USAID), United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), name them.
But with these organisations, we need to go to them with a proper programme and plan. And we are saying that we have started doing the basic things; first of all, set up a committee and let them do financial and performance audit, after which we will look at what they have and also throw in our ideas and then through consultations with various players -- Of course, he will not be left out -- we will come out with a document which will meet the standard of the donor agencies. So that is what is being done.
I thank you.
Labour Strength of Ghana as at

January 2009

Q. 591. Mr Justice Joe Appiah asked the Minister for Employment and Social Welfare about the labour strength of this country as at January, 2009.
Mr E.T. Mensah 11:10 a.m.
Mr Speaker, one major challenge facing the Ghanaian labour market is lack of regular and timely availability of labour statistics. This is obviously blamed on lack of investment in the collection and analysis of labour market indicators on regular basis. Generally, labour market data and statistics in Ghana are often sourced from population censuses and other household surveys, such as the Ghana Living Standards Survey and Core Welfare Indicators Questionnaires.
The most recent labour market statistics can be obtained from the fifth round of the Ghana Living Standards Survey conducted in 2005/2006.
The Ministry is currently analysing the employment module of the Ghana Living Standards Survey and Population Censuses and make it available to the public.
Based on the fifth round of Ghana Living Standards Survey in 2005/2006, Ghana's working population (that is, those aged 15 years and over) was estimated at 13.58 million in 2006, compared with 10.27 million in 1999, representing annual growth rate of 4.07 per cent. On the basis of this, an estimated working population in 2009 stood at about 14.13 million.
The labour force (made up of employed and unemployed) or economically active population aged 15 years and over, was estimated at 9.61 million in 2009 based on estimated 1.99 per cent annual growth rate of the labour force of 8.21 million and 9.423 million in 1999 and 2006 respectively.
Females constituted 51.5 per cent of the labour force, while males account for
the remaining 48.5 per cent. About 37.1 per cent of the labour force is in the urban areas, compared with 62.9 per cent in the rural areas
In addition, it is estimated that about 9.14 million adults were in various types of employment in 2006, out of which 54.9 per cent was in agriculture, compared with 14.2 per cent in industry and 30.9 per cent in services. Manufacturing (which is a subset of industry) accounts for 11.2 per cent, while wholesale and retail (a subsector in services) constitute about 16 per cent of total employment.
Wage employment accounts for only 17.5 per cent as against 55 per cent and 20.4 per cent in self-employment and contributing family work respectively. This yields vulnerable employment rate (one of the Millennium Development Goals employment indicators) of 75.4 per cent.
It is also estimated that about 26 per cent of employed people are working poor (that is, living in households that earn below the upper poverty line) as against 16 per cent considered to be extremely working (poor, that is, living in household, that earn below the lower poverty line).
Estimates from the fifth round of the Ghana Living Standards Survey also indicate that about 2.65 million adults were not working for various reasons, out of which less than a million (only 636,848) were available for work, yielding broad unemployment rate of 6.5 per cent. Broad unemployment rate refers to the proportion of labour force that is not working and is available for work (but not necessarily looking for work). The rate was 10.3 per cent in the urban areas and 4.3 per cent among rural adults. Broad unemployment rate among the youth aged 15-24 was estimated at 22.9 per cent in
urban areas as against 8.9 per cent among rural folks.
Narrow unemployment rates defined as the proportion of labour force that do not have jobs, but available for work, and actively looking for work was estimated at only 3 per cent in 2006. The lower narrow unemployment rates appear to convey somewhat misleading information, considering the fact that in Ghana many jobless people who are available for work do not see the point in looking for work for various reasons or have limited opportunity to do so. This is evident in much higher broad unemployment rate of 6.5 per cent (13.5 per cent among the youth).
The quality of the labour force in the country measured by the level of formal education completed is quite weak. Estimates from the fifth round of the Ghana Living Standards Survey indicate that about 35 per cent of the labour force has not had any formal education and about 51 per cent has either tasted or completed basic education. Only 7 per cent has had some secondary education while 2.5 per cent has completed tertiary education. This development has implications for the kind of job openings in the country.
Below is a table showing relevant labour market indicators computed from the Ghana Living Standards Survey.
Mr Appiah 11:10 a.m.
According to the Centre for Policy Analysis (CEPA) and the Government's obsession at obtaining a low inflation target, young people are not recruited into the Public and Civil service. What plans does the Ministry have to create jobs for the youth of this country?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:10 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it
is public knowledge that job creation in any part of the world is a function of the economy. As the economy grows, opportunities are created in the system

for jobs to be made available. We have done something and I have said this, and in all the Ministries and Departments, including Parliament, we do not have the full complement of the staff that we need to service the economy for the economy to grow and the reason is not far-fetched.

The vacancies are there but ISD will tell us that they do not have what it takes -- The Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning, if they do not have - If the economy is not growing in that area for

We have analysed the reason that went into that I have talked to those people who were part of it, and it is something which was not sustainable. People work for two years and they exit and most of the work that they are doing are core functions

of the District Assemblies. So if we can increase the inflow of the Common Fund to the District Assemblies, I believe that they will take those people on and that will be addressing the unemployment situation as opposed to what is happening now.

We said that the other leg of it is to create employable skills where when people exit, some will go and look for jobs, some can come together and form co-operatives, create jobs and employ some of the people out there. There is a lot that has to be done and we are looking at all those to roll it out.

Thank you.
Mr Appiah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, may I crave your indulgence to read an extract from the Daily Graphic of 19th March, 2010 --
“One million six hundred jobs have so far been created for the youth as a result of interventions pursued in selected sectors of the economy under the Mills Administration, a Deputy Minister of Information, Mr Samuel Okudzeto-Ablakwa has said.”
Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Hon Minister, by the Answer provided, is there no current data to show us the level of employment in this country. I want to ask the Hon Minister if he can prove what Mr Okudzeto-Ablakwa has said; if yes, he should give us the statistics, if no, then why?
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if I
may refresh our memories of the Question from Hon Justice Appiah -
“To ask the Minister for Employment and Social Welfare about the labour strength of this country as at January,
11.10 A.M. PAGE 4
2009.”
So I need notice to go and investigate what was said by - [Interruptions] - The statement was made by Hon Okudzeto- Ablakwa; I want to go and investigate and find out the authenticity of what he rolled out.
Mr Appiah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer but I will go ahead.
I want to know from the Hon Minister how many jobs have been created in the Civil and Public Services since the NDC Administration assumed office.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister [Interruptions] Order! Order! Order!
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I want to ask my Son -- I want him to find another question, I will go through and find out how many jobs were created by the Kufuor Administration, number one - [Hear! Hear!] - and also come with jobs created by the Mills Administration so far.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister, reference to history will not answer questions. If you will kindly answer the question.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the question that he is asking is history because the statement was made many months ago -- is history - [Interruptions] - Whatever happened, yesterday would be history. So I am not challenging the Speaker; I am only putting the issue in perspective. Whatever happens today, tomorrow it will be history. So what I am saying is that, I need notice to go and verify. I did not make that statement; that is it.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister, you may provide us with current statistics and then make reference to any
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I answered the Question that was filed.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Thank you very much.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
The issue that he has raised is another matter altogether and I am asking your leave if any other Hon Member can come with the Question or he can come with a specific Question, I will research and come to answer. That is the point which I am making.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Thank you very much.
Yes, Hon Deputy Minority Leader?
Mr Ambrose P. Dery 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I just want to emphasise the point that looking at the Question that was asked, which sets the limits at January, 2009, it is quite legitimate for the Hon Minister to say that he needs notice. Except to say that when he says he needs notice, he should not in that response want to plant his own “Question”, that he is going to give statistics to what happened in previous years. He will only be competent to come and answer a Question here and not to set a Question. That is what I want to put on record, Mr Speaker.
rose
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister, you have not been asked any question. The Hon Deputy Minority Leader -
Yes, Hon Dr Akoto Osei?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, in the Answer to the Question, paragraph 2, the Hon Minister talked about an estimated
working population of 13.58 million in 2006. Then he goes on and says that it represents an annual growth rate of 4.07 per cent.
Mr Speaker, an annual growth rate of 4.07 per cent means that for 2007, the number should be 14.13 million. But he says that in 2009, it was 14.13 million. Is the Hon Minister aware that an annual growth rate of 4.07 per cent cannot yield 14.13 million in 2009 - if it is an annual growth rate -- unless of course, the advisors have misinformed him ?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we picked this from a source and I have indicated the source - Ghana Statistical Service - That was where we picked the numbers from. So if they made a mistake -- human beings are fallible and that is it. But we picked it -- I cross-checked it again and again and that was what was picked; it was not that I was misadvised by any advisor.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Thank you, Hon Minister.
Hon Dr A. A. Osei?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:20 a.m.
The information given to us is emphatic. Whether they picked it from GSS or anywhere, somebody is supposed to check it. It is saying that annual growth rate is 4.07 per cent. If we multiply it, it means that in 2007, it should be 14.13 million; not 2009. So he is providing an incorrect answer. It is misleading; simple. I am not saying where he picked it from -- I am saying that this information is misleading,
Is the Hon Minister aware that it needs to be corrected because whoever prepares the Answer must at least, check the accuracy of the information before he gives it to the House? That is what I am saying. I am not saying it is his fault; unless of course, the statement is incorrect. That is why I was not sure.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will take note and go and verify and make the appropriate correction.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
Hon Minister, when can you have this filed with the Table Offic, just to complete the record?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, for the Table Office, we can give them up to Friday -
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:20 a.m.
By Friday, you will have the figures appropriately laid --
I thank you very much.
Mrs Akosua F. Osei-Opare 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, in the Answer by the Hon Minister, he said one of the major challenges facing the Ghanaian labour market was lack of regular and timely availability of labour statistics. I would like to know from him, what is the status of the labour market information system that is being developed by the Ministry and to what extent the draft Employment Policy recommendation to make employment generation a criterion for award of government contracts is being implemented.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the
Hon Member is aware that there is no capacity there. Yes, the labour market information system has been put in place; there is no single expert on labour issues in that Ministry and one long-term consultant has been appointed and he has been striving to get supporting staff to work with. That is what I stated in the Answer that the capacity is just not there and that makes it so difficult.

The issue about making employment generation an issue in contract awards and all that, we have said it and I have forwarded it to Cabinet. So our problem in this country -- We have beautiful institutions and we need human beings to work in these institutions to make things happen. That is where we are and we have been trying to figure out if we can get support from outside to sponsor people to come to that Secretariat.

The long-term consultant is being sponsored by DFID, not by Ghana Government but these are issues that are very important.

That is where we are, Mr Speaker.
Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, reading from the text of the Hon Minister, he indicates that the working population -- those aged 15 and over -- As far as I know, internationally, labour is calculated from the age of 16. Is this not giving the impression that we are using minors in the labour market, and why are we using the figure 15 when internationally it is 16? What is the basis for his assessment and for using the 15 years as the starting point for the labour market? I thought it was 16. Can he explain, please?
Mr E.T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, currently, it is 15. I just returned from an International Labour Organisation (ILO) meeting -- and even the issue about child labour, when we were blacklisted and threatened for our cocoa to be boycotted [Interruption] that is why I have been moving back and forth. The age limit is now 15. The definition of “youth” by the United Nations is 15 to 24'. Labour is now 15, based on the UN's position as defining “youth” from 15 to 24. The working age starts from 15. If you are using labour, which is under 15, then it is an infraction on the international convention.
Mrs Osei-Opare 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I think
regarding the working age, we could look at the Children's Act, which states
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, except that from 15 years to 18 years, you are not to do what they classify as “hazardous jobs” but with employment, yes, 15 years.
Thank you, and I thank the Hon Member.
Mr Albert Kan-Dapaah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Question is a very, very simple one -- What was the labour strength of Ghana as at January, 2009? In the Hon Minister's response, he talked about so many things, but the Question -- Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the Hon Minister, what is the labour strength in this country as at January 2009.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, this is
not a yes or no Question and that is why it has been answered that way. If the Hon Member reads the Answer carefully, he will find his answer.
Mr Kan-Dapaah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, in the
Hon Minister's response, he used the word ‘unable' - Is he saying that he is unable to tell us what the labour strength is? [Some Hon Members: Tell us.] I do not know; I am not a Minister. [Interruption.] I know that the Hon Minister has a new sheet, probably, he is going to give us a figure now.
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if you
will indulge me with your permission, I will read the third paragraph of the Answer
-- 11:30 a.m.
Dr A. A. Osei 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I need
to be guided. This is where his question is relevant. Somebody has taken the indicators as of 2006 and supposedly applied an annual growth rate to give us the estimates for 2009 but that number does not add up. That is the point. That is why he said “even though it is 9.61 million”; if you apply the growth rate, it becomes 10.3 something.
As he said, he wants to go and check and come back. I think it is a better answer because if we accept the numbers that are being provided, we will not get the same numbers that he is alluding to; it cannot be 9.61 million. So I think it would be better for the Hon Minister, as he said, to come back to the Clerks-at-the-Table on Friday so that he can answer the Question as he has been asked to because the estimation is not adding up.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon
Minister, sometimes we may want to give an answer by way of certain earlier assumptions, and apply them on the assumption that this was the position some five years ago -- if this was the rate of growth, then the supposition is that we will have this. That is a conditional answer. If the answer is not available now, will you please, want to have some time and then come again on this?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, all these answers are based on assumptions, so I will add the explanation to what we said earlier and give it to you on Friday.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:30 a.m.
On Friday? Thank you very much. On that, we will ask the last question because we expect the Hon Minister to be here again with further answers.
rose
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:30 a.m.
By way of gender balance, the Hon Member for Lower West Akim.
Ms Gifty Klenam 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker apprenticeship is seen in this country as a stop gap measure to ease the unemployment situation but there is no law that guides apprenticeship in this country. May I find out from the Hon Minister when he intends to put up a law that will guide apprenticeship in this country?
Mr E. T. Mensah 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I
need notice to give the Hon Member all the details she needs about when we are bringing a law or whether there is, a law or not.
Thank you.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Thank
you very much, Hon Minister, for attending to the House and answering our Questions.
This will end Question time.
Hon Members, at the Commencement of Public Business, item 5, Laying of Papers, Minister for Finance and Economic Planning.
Mr Abdul-Rashid Pelpuo 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Minister for Finance and Economic Planning is out of town; he travelled with the President and we

would seek your indulgence to allow the Hon Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning to lay the Papers.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon
Deputy Minority Leader, any objection?
Mr Dery 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you
for the opportunity; no objection to that. I think the Deputy Minister can do that.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Thank
you very much. The Hon Deputy Minister may lay the Papers accordingly.
PAPERS 11:40 a.m.
Mr Albert Kan-Dapaah 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, if I can seek your guidance on this matter, which we have been facing over the months. For instance, the first Paper that was laid, that is the Additional Financing Agreement for the Ghana Energy Development and Access Project; this has been referred to the Finance Committee.
Similarly, (v), the Additional Credit
Agreement for the E-Ghana Project has also been referred to the Finance Committee. In both cases, the Energy Committee and the Communications
Committee are not involved.
Mr Speaker, we are talking about major projects and I do not think we are only interested in the financing arrangements. There is a project to be reviewed in the first place. When you leave out these committees, are we not leaving something important out? And should these Papers not be referred to the Joint Committees as opposed to the Finance Committee alone?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, my senior
Colleague on my right has been a Member of this House since 1997. With respect to him, our Standing Order 171(1) is very clear on what you may do. With your permission, if I may read:
“ W h e n a L o a n A g r e e m e n t or an international business or economic transaction that requires the authorisation of Parliament through a resolution is laid before Parliament it shall be the duty of the Committee on Finance to examine the Agreement or transaction and make recommendations to the House.”
Mr Speaker, the principle he is espousing, I do not disagree with, but we are working by our Standing Orders which we are yet to change, and we are constrained by that. So I am expecting, to the extent that we are law-abiding lawmakers, we will abide by our own laws and move to change our Standing Orders if we so want to be making joint references. But we are working by this “Bible”. I am told that in Parliament our Standing Orders together with the Constitution are what we work with. So until we have changed them, I do not see how we will want to violate Standing Order 171(1).
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon
Members, it shall be referred to the Finance Committee, excluding all others, if it is in the wisdom of Parliament to so
do -- it shall of course be referred to a particular committee. It is not necessarily exclusive of others, is it so?
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, what you are saying is a truism; it is borne out by our Standing Orders. This is because even by our Standing Orders, we can decide as a House, not to apply our Standing Orders depending on the circumstances of each case.
However, it also has to do with the way Parliament has decided to carry out its constitutional duty, because article 181, particularly clause 3 says, and with permission, I beg to quote:
“No loan shall be raised by the Government on behalf of itself or any other public institution or authority otherwise than by or under the authority of an Act of Parliament.”
Article 181(1) says:
“…Parliament, authorise the Government to enter into an agreement for the granting of a loan out of any public fund or public account.”
Then article 181(5) says:
“This article shall, with the necessary modifications by Parliament, apply to an international business or economic transaction to which the Government is a party as it applies to a loan.”
Mr Speaker, the combined effect of this Act is that Parliament shall authorise.
Parliament, through its Standing Orders

has decided that this should be the method. However, over the years, Mr Speaker, you will agree with me that it has always been a difficulty.

I appreciate the point the Hon Member for Efigya-Sekyere West (Mr Albert Kan- Dapaah) is raising. But experience also shows that when you combine that project analysis function and the loan function in one committee, the committee is unable to do an effective analysis in respect of the project aspect.

To that extent, I will agree with the Hon Member for Old Tafo (Dr A. A. Osei) that in the future, we may have to change it, because I believe the project analysis should come before the loan itself is presented to the House.

We may then have to amend our Standing Orders to indicate that before a loan transaction is presented to the House in respect of a project, the project analysis must have been approved by Parliament.

This is because really, if a loan is brought and the project itself has already been completed, it is based on the project analysis and the report that government intends to enter into the loan. However, that aspect is always lost on Parliament, and strictly speaking, I believe that project analysis is also very, very key. So as suggested by the Hon Member for Old Tafo and Ranking Member for the Finance Committee, it is something that we should look at seriously.

Mr Speaker, I have been talking a lot

on this because I gave a piece of advice as the former Attorney-General and Minister for Justice in respect of this matter and it did not find favour. Indeed, before Parliament came into being, there was a Public Agreements Board and that Public Agreements Board also analysed the project aspect of loans. Now, it seems it is lost. When one goes to Cabinet, indeed, for Cabinet to engage in these project
Mr Alfred K. Agbesi 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker,
we are all learning. It is interesting to know from my Hon Colleague that in other jurisdictions, Parliament employs consultants. Mr Speaker, it is a good idea, it is good that we should do every work diligently and to the best of our ability.
Mr Kan-Dapaah 11:50 a.m.
On a point of
order. Mr Speaker, this is to correct something that my Hon Friend just said and indeed, that was earlier said by the Hon Member for Old Tafo. Mr Speaker, it used to be the practice in this House for such Papers to be referred to the joint committees. The impression is being given that it never was the practice in this House.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Thank
you very much for the intervention. [Interruptions] Order! Order!
Dr Kojo Appiah-Kubi 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I do appreciate the point cited by Hon Dr Akoto Osei that such issues bordering on finance should be assigned to the Finance Committee alone. It is also interesting to know that Hon Papa Owusu-Ankomah said that if something is assigned to two committees, that will impede the work of the committee. I do not see how if something is assigned to two committees, the work of the committee would be impeded and cross-fertilisation of ideas would not be enhanced. I think that it would rather even be better - [Interruption.]
Papa Owusu-Ankomah 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, on a point of order. Mr Speaker, I think the Hon Member on the floor is misrepresenting what I said. I never said that it impedes the work of the committee. I just said that we do not seem to thoroughly do the work that either committee is supposed to do. That does not mean that it impedes the work of the committee. [Interruptions.]
Dr Appiah-Kubi 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I do
not see any difference between what he just said and what he said previously.
Indeed, I believe that it would even enhance the work of the committee. He also made the suggestion to separate even the technical analysis from that of the finance. It would also be appreciated that if this technical analysis is done, and I would
even suggest that -- why is it not possible to have two reports in one; the technical analysis and the financial analysis? I do not see anything different from presenting these two reports in one.
So, I would suggest that instead of just ignoring the technical aspect or changing the order before we can assign something to two committees, I believe that it is possible right now, to assign to two committees and allow these two committees to prepare separate reports and present them as a single report.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Thank
you very much.
The final contribution will come from Dr Matthew Prempeh.
Dr Matthew O. Prempeh noon
Mr Speaker, I rise to speak in support of Hon Kan-Dapaah. Standing Order 188, it says -
“The Committee on Mines and Energy composed of eighteen Members shall examine all matters relating to mines and energy generally.”
Mr Speaker, Standing Order 182, and it states -
“ T h e C o m m i t t e e o n Communications shall consist of eighteen Members, to which shall be referred matters relating to communications generally.”
Likewise every other committee, Mr Speaker.
Recently in this House, a committee went to examine a Loan Agreement and subsequently -- I remember very well when the matter was being referred, Hon Members suggested that the committee on Works and Housing should be added. It was not done, Mr Speaker. Subsequently,

after the committee had done its due report and recommended to the House that it should be passed. In discussing the report, we realised that we should go back to the Committee on Works and Housing to be also involved.

So Mr Speaker, if the Standing Orders have not appropriately addressed this issue, I think being the Chair, and every Chair who sits in Chair, should encourage both committees, the one relevant and the one specific, in this matter, the Finance Committee, the joint referrals would be made so that the House will indeed , serve a good purpose.
Mr E. K. D. Adjaho noon
Mr Speaker, I think Standing Order 171 with regard to matters of loans is very clear. Mr Speaker, if you look at the Papers that have been laid, they are standard IDA Loan Agreements. So they are ones that we have handled several times on the floor. I am yet to be told when an IDA Loan Agreement of this nature had been referred to a joint committee.
I think that the joint referrals or hearing another technical group doing another thing and others, I do not think that there is need for it. I think that this is a matter that should be handled effectively by the Finance Committee without any problem. Any of the relevant committees that wants to do anything, they have powers -- Parliament has given them funding to have oversight over these various MDAs --- they can always call them to their meetings to get further and better particulars on some of these facilities and I think that should be the best way to go.
Mr Ambrose P Dery noon
Thank you very much Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.
Mr Speaker, I think that points have been made very clearly in this matter. The need for a prior technical assessment of the area where the loan or facility is supposed to be applied, we may consider. And so I agree that in reviewing our
Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
Thank you very much. In the light of previous rulings, we would basically stand by Standing Order 171 and the main point of call is the Finance committee of Parliament. Wherever it is desirable that another committee should be added to the Finance Committee, a special case must be so made and a ruling thereon would be made accordingly.
In this particular case, no such special case has been made and we would therefore, ask that the matters be referred only to the Finance Committee. This is not to say that there would not be cases where it would be desirable and proper that joint committees should act in this matter.
Thank you. Mr Hackman Owusu-Agyemang
- rose -
Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
Majority Leader, item 12 - item 12, Hon Members -- [Pause.]
Yes, Hon Hackman Owusu-Agyemang?
Mr Owusu-Agyemang noon
Mr Speaker, you have ruled. I do not intend to challenge it and I believe that I should have come by a substantive Motion. But what I want to suggest in view of the very sagacious ruling that you have made, that we would make a recommendation to the Speaker, the three Speakers, to make sure that in future, whenever a Member has a case to be put, it would be put.
As you rightly say, Sir, these are additional loans, so it is assumed that they have been looked at. Some of them are for waiver of taxes and what have you and the rest. But there are certain instances - I remember making the case
that the STX Loan Agreement should be referred to a joint committee; it did not receive approval. So the point that we are making is that we have to go by the best practices that we have and the best practices elsewhere.
Those of us that have been here long enough know that the late Justice Annan used to quite fairly, frequently refer a lot of these things to the joint committees. I agree with you, Mr Speaker, but I believe that it is about time we took a look at the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders Committee, which is reviewing this must do it.
For example, I personally feel that the Appointments Committee should not be an omnibus committee. If there is a Judge to be appointed, then the Legal and the Constitutional Committees are the ones to examine the credentials or the man or the woman whether he/she is qualified to be a Judge of the Superior Court or not. If it is agriculture, the Committee on Food and Agriculture should do it and not the Appointments Committee of which I happen to be a member. That Appointments Committee should look at each and every referral because it is an appointment.
So I think that it is time that we took a look at our Standing Orders to make sure - because I really do not see how the Hon Minister for Health should be the subject matter for the Appointments Committee. I believe that we need to take a look at the Standing Orders.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
Thank you very much, Hon Member. These are all very useful discussions and I believe that they would be taken on board at the appropriate time.
rose
Mr Second Deputy Speaker noon
Yes,
Hon Majority Leader - I think at this stage, with all respect, Government Business must go on.
Hon Members, item 12, the University of Ghana Bill, 2010 at Consideration Stage.
Mr Pelpuo 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon
Minister is here and the Hon Chairman of the Committee is here, so I think we can go ahead with item 12.
Mr Dery 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I heard my Hon Colleague, the Hon Deputy Majority Leader say the Hon Deputy Minister is here. He was, I do not know if he is still there. He might still be there in spirit but we would rather that he be here in flesh.
Mr Speaker, except to also say that we have got additional proposed amendments that have been printed. And I would ask that in considering them, we do consider the latest proposals, alongside what have been advertised.
Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
I hope Hon Members have got copies of the White Paper because we will be moving vis-à-vis the yellow and white at this point of the Consideration Stage.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION 12:10 p.m.
STAGE 12:10 p.m.
  • [Resumption of debate from 22nd July, 2010]
    • Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Clause
    3 -

    Hon Member for Asawase (Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka)?
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to moved, clause 3, subclause (2), delete.

    Mr Speaker, I am still insisting on its deletion and I hope most of my Hon Colleagues would support this. In the sense that if we restrict movement within or into the universities, I can assure you, we will gradually be turning our universities into secondary schools.

    I have heard arguments from Hon Members talking about international best practices. Mr Speaker, I have had the opportunity of going to Harvard, there is no main entrance. You go to Oxford, there is no main entrance. You have an easy access around. It is only when you want to enter any building or any facility, that is when it will be required.

    Mr Speaker, if you look at the University of Ghana today, even the road leading from Tetteh-Quarshie to Madina is part of Legon. If you say, upon entry you need permission, that means, all the tro tros that ply that route must have permission. All the taxis must have permission.

    Mr Speaker, as Hon Members of this House, if you are not an alumnus of the University of Ghana, Legon and there is anything that you need to do to enhance your supervisory role, you would need to ask permission.

    Mr Speaker, knowing the systems that we run very well, if you want to go to take permission and somebody is very much aware - let me use this unpopular example, the current unrest with regard to Commonwealth Hall, and maybe, as an alumnus - or no, maybe, as an Hon Member of Parliament, you think you needed some information to make a Statement to either support or against whatever they are doing and you were going to enter the university premises, I can assure you, Mr Speaker, even when you go to ask permission, the university can decide to deny you.

    Therefore, you will not have entry. I think we will be making the university - Mr Speaker, I hate to say -- a kind of - it

    is an ivory tower but we will be making it too restrictive. I do not think even the seat of government in this country, you need permission to go to the Castle. What you need is, when you get to the gate, they will find out what your permission is, whom you are going to see, then they will facilitate to make sure that you are screened to go and see whoever you would want to see.

    But what we are going to do, I can assure you, at the main entrance of the University of Ghana, a security man would ask you for your permission and without it, he would not ask you to enter.

    With this, Mr Speaker, I would want my Hon Colleagues to carefully think through this. If we want to restrict it to the use of their facilities, yes. But to say, “no entry”, Mr Speaker, I wish that this subclause was completely deleted.

    I thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Dery 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I totally agree
    with the concerns expressed by the Hon Member for Asawase to the extent of entering the university premise per se. But we should be careful that in trying to solve that problem, we do not over-open the doors to such an extent that university facilities could be abused.
    I thought we could say:
    “A person who is not a member of the university, shall not have the use of the facilities or privileges of the university without the permission of the university.”
    Then you delete “shall not enter the premises of the university”. We would have solved that problem of mere entering and also giving the university the authority, the chance to grant permission for you to use their facilities or their privileges.
    That, we should not take away from them. So, I think it is just a matter of some plastic surgery; cutting out the “enter the premises”.
    Dr Prempeh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thought those who were proffering this secondary amendment would have put their thoughts on paper and let us see what they really want to do.
    I totally agree with my Hon Friend from Asawase. Mr Speaker, even Burma Camp, it is not in any law that we shall not enter Burma Camp. It is not in any law. But it is a restricted - it is not in any law but it is a security zone - [An Hon Member: There is a law.] - By which law in Ghana?
    rose
    Dr Prempeh 12:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have the floor - what are you coming on?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
    Hon Member for Old Tafo (Dr A. A. Osei), do you rise on a point of order? Hon Member for Old Tafo, you may speak. I have noticed you and you have liberty to speak.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I will take this matter up at the appropriate time. He is saying there is no law and I am saying that is not correct.
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is no
    law; it is a security zone that has been so designated. And even that, you can enter but you are screened at the point of entry.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, are security zones duly recognised and determined by law?
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, security zones are duly recognised by the security
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Order! Order!
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    -- decided to declare Kotoka International Airport and its environs a security zone; it was not backed by any law. Mr Speaker, what we are saying is that, it is true that Legon must have restricted access, but that should be catered very well by its bye laws or its statutes or its regulations, not in a law. Mr Speaker, what is put down here, when you get to the gate and the security man asks you, “where is your permission before you enter”, what do you say? And the explanation given at the Committee level, Mr Speaker, is somebody's interpretation -- [Interruption]-- He is a senior lawyer; if this goes to the law courts -
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, are you standing on a point of Order! Order!
    Dr Appiah-Kubi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I stand on a point of order. I believe that the Hon Member is misleading the House. There is no way that anybody entering premises be asked: “Where is your permission?” Rather, one would be asked: “What is your mission?” That is what would be asked, and there is a big difference between “What is your mission” and “Where is your permission?” Because the permission means, you should hold an identity (ID) card or a permit before you
    Dr Appiah-Kubi 12:20 p.m.
    That is the difference -- [Interruption]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Order! Order! I do not think if the Hon Member starts bringing a very useful idea of “mission”, it is something to laugh about at all, because you could imagine, could we not look at the issue of “mission” as also worthy of attention? Otherwise, can a university premises be such that every hawker, or every person can also go just freely, if a matter of “mission”, does not matter? So please, let us look at this thing analytically without shouting down some of those arguments.
    Hon Member, you may continue.
    Dr Prempeh 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if the Hon Member cared to have read what it says; it says and Mr Speaker, with your permission, I read:
    “A person who is not a member of the university shall not enter ...”

    “. . . the premises of the university.”

    That is one, or

    “Shall not have access to the privileges and facilities of the university without the permission

    . . . .”

    It did not say “without stating your mission at the gate”. Mr Speaker, this is a fundamental issue, we cannot create by law -
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, do you stand on a point of order?
    Mrs Osei-Opare 12:20 p.m.
    On a point of Order. Mr Speaker, the clause is very clear. If you are not a member of the university, they say you cannot enter without permission from the university. This is very much in order for any institution. The point is that the university is an institution with its own rights and it has a right to regulate how people should enter or exit -
    An Hon Member -- rose -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, you will remain seated while the Hon Member is speaking on a point of order.
    Yes, Hon Osei-Opare, you may continue.
    Mrs Osei-Opare 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you go to Aburi Secondary School, you cannot just enter because your daughter is there. If you go to Achimota school, you cannot just enter because your son or daughter is there. What this is saying is that, the university has a responsibility in an area that is demarcated as University of Ghana. Now, the university has to be given the right to make rules and regulations concerning entry and exit of that premises, it is in their right.
    When we say that ‘without permission', it does not mean that you have to stand at the gate before that permission is granted. The university would make rules and regulations concerning the entry and exit. It is their right and it cannot be taken away from them.
    Therefore Mr Speaker, this clause is in good intent, it is correct, and should be maintained.
    Mr Alfred K. Agbesi 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if we go to the interpretation column of
    this Bill, “member of the university” means, the Chancellor, the Chairperson, and Members of the University Council and College Councils, Junior Members, Employees, Alumni, Pensioners, Honorary Degree Holders and former Members of Council, and College Councils. Mr Speaker, it means that these are the members of the university. If you are not one of these, then you cannot enter. -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    You cannot enter without permission. Or if you want to enter, you get permission.
    Mr Agbesi 12:20 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, as now, we have many institutions - [Interruptions.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Order! Order!
    Mr Agbesi 12:20 p.m.
    We have many schools, work places, which if you want to enter, you are given permission. That is an arrangement made at the entrance of such institutions, that when you get there, you are asked a question, then you are permitted to enter.
    Mr Speaker, we have other facilities, other institutions within the university premises. For instance, I have an account with Ghana Commercial Bank. With the current banking system, I can go to any of their branches and cash money. Now, I am around the university campus and I need money. Ghana Commercial Bank also operates at the university campus. Mr Speaker, it should be possible for me to get to that place and cash money by asking permission at the entrance. That should not be stated in the parent law that governs the university.
    Mr Speaker, the argument has been made that even in the university, there are people who are committing crimes like rape and other things on the campus. Mr Speaker, that is not a valid argument. The point is that crimes are being committed in schools and institutions. What should
    the authorities of those institutions do to control such crimes? It is not a matter to say because crimes are being committed there, individuals from outside cannot enter. It is a matter for the authority to take hold and control that situation.
    Mr Speaker, to say that if you are not a member of the university, you cannot enter; it is like you are creating a situation whereby you must necessarily be a member of the university before you go there. Mr Speaker, this is a far-fetched provision and I believe that the amendment is proper; we should support it to say that if you are not a member, once you are going to perform a function and you go there and your function is reasonable, it is within the law that you should go to that place and perform that function, you should be permitted to go. But that should not be put in the parent law.
    I am against the law as it is now but I support totally the amendment that has been proposed.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, last week, the Speaker in the Chair ruled that on this amendment, there was a court case. Leadership, before it was brought back - [Interruption.] That there was a court case - Please. The previous Speaker -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    Has the matter been ruled upon?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker; specifically that Leadership, because of -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:20 p.m.
    It appears on the Order Paper?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:20 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker. That is why I am asking. Because his directions were that, because it was a court case, Leadership should go and interrogate -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, clause 3 is deferred.

    Hon Boafo, I want to be sure. Is there an understanding on clause 4, so that we can proceed to clause 6?
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe it was deferred but the submission made by my Hon Colleague, I do not recall it properly because we are not in this Chamber to make a re-statement of laws. We are here to make new laws. That is why we even repeal existing laws. So if there is a court decision, we can make a new law to reverse the court decision. So I do not see the contention here.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    What clause are you speaking on?
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, sorry I was referring to clause 3.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, would you kindly speak on clause 4? Clause 3 is deferred.
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the entire clause 4 was deferred. The Question was not put on the entire clause 4.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    So can we proceed on clause 4 as per your amendment?
    We are proceeding with the white paper and yellow paper.
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, my amendment was originally not part of the proposed amendment considered on clause 4 at the last Sitting. So, I believe we can take it and if it is accepted, it becomes part of clause 4, when the Question is put later.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    Would you please, move the amendment then?
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4, paragraph (h), line (1), insert after “be” “available locally and further be”.
    Mr Puoza 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we do accept the modification.
    Mr Haruna Iddrisu 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I reckon that the Chairman of the Committee has supported the proposed amendment. But to put it in a much safer language, one would have preferred that even the reference to “abroad” and “locally”, is deleted entirely, so that we just say that “the fruits of research and knowledge generally, will be spread by the publication of books and papers” -- so that it speaks for itself.
    Mr Speaker, the expectation is that, you are yourself an academic. There are reputed journalists both within and outside the country to which they make publications which affect their ratings in terms of the number of publications and which category of journals you have sent. So, I would seek a further amendment, where it just read that --
    “the fruits of research and knowledge generally, will be spread by the publication of books and papers and by any other suitable means.”
    And leave it without any reference to local or international.
    Mr Boafo 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it kills the
    same mischief of limiting it to “abroad”, So it is accepted. In effect, the deletion would affect “abroad”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    For the avoidance of doubt, would you read it fully for the rendition to be clear?
    Mr H. Iddrisu 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the paragraph shall read:
    “the fruit of research and knowledge generally, will be spread by the publication of books and papers and by any other suitable means.”
    Mr Dery 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I admire my younger brother for having a frame of mind now. I just heard of his misfortune recently. But what he therefore, means is that, he is moving for an amendment of paragraph (h) by deleting “abroad” after “spread”. That is it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    So, let us get the rendition.
    Mr Dery 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is the way the amendment should be proposed, that we move to amend clause 4 (h) by deleting “abroad” in line (2) thereof. So the rendition, when we delete line (2), would then be --
    “the fruits of research and knowledge generally, will be spread by the publication of books, papers and by other suitable means.”
    But the Motion is that, we amend clause 4 (h) by deleting “abroad” in line 2.
    Dr Kojo Appiah-Kubi 12:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would like to propose that instead of “by”, the word “through” should be inserted.
    “The frui ts of research and knowledge generally, will be spread through the publication of books and papers and through any other suitable means”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:30 p.m.
    I will
    put the Question with regard to the original statement.
    “The frui ts of research and knowledge generally, will be spread by the publication of books and papers and by any other suitable means.”
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Boafo 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 4, paragraph (i), line (2), after “other”, delete “cultural”
    There is “cultural” to qualify the institution which the university can develop close relationships. I think such a restriction is not helpful. The university should be allowed to develop close relationships with the people of this country and any other institution. So, I am proposing the deletion of “cultural”, line 2.
    So, the new rendition, with your permission, will read as follows:
    “ ( i ) T h e u n i v e r s i t y w i l l develop close relationships with the people of this country and with any other institutions, whether within the country or outside.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee, the proposed amendment is clear.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Dr Prempeh 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, while Sitting in the Chair, the last time, we went through this, clause 4 (c), the word “promotion” as part of --
    “ in i t s ac t iv i t i es inc lud ing recruitment, admission, promotion and the provision of privileges, . . .”
    I propose that, we delete the word “promotion” as far as regards the conscious need for gender balance -- You said we should defer it to come back to -- the word “promotion”, that is what you
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Order! Order! The Chairman of the Committee to respond. Hon Members, let us not be too troubled about some of these things.
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this has already been done. It was taken care of last week.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    And for that matter, can you just refresh the memory of Hon Members what was done? At the Committee stage, it is like we are at the workshop, as the whole of Parliament and it will be advisable for you to tell the Hon Member what was done, so that he will be sure that his query is answered. Otherwise, I think he will be entitled to want it raised again.
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    What page is that?
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Please, refer him to the green paper then --
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you mean it is not here?
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am sorry. This amendment was presented the last time; it did not pass. The records show what we did to clause 4 (c) and this is what the official record is saying. This is the Thursday, 22nd July. “Amendment proposed”, that one was not part of it -- “line (c) delete “balance” and insert -”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, if that is so, then he may even be entitled to raise it now.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am saying if he wants to bring a new amendment, it is a different matter.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    But
    the fact is that the matter was actually discussed.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there is no record of it here. That is my point, there is no record of that.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, he will proceed.
    Dr Prempeh 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is not the Hansard; maybe, the Hansard would have even spoken about what the Speaker -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Dr Prempeh, I think we will -
    Dr Prempeh 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am proposing that the word “promotion” be deleted from clause 4 (c), in that recruitment and admissions into the university, we can take into cognizance gender balance and whatever but as far as promotion is concerned, we should not engage in promotion in the university based upon gender and other ethnic minorities. So, I propose that the word “promotion” be totally deleted from this clause.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee, my memory serves me right, that there has been a query on this matter over which the Hon Dr Prempeh made some strong comments. Chairman of the Committee, would you want to comment on this?
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I remember that Mr Speaker did say that in academia, people will laugh at the idea of promotion based on gender. I remember very well that you said something like that. And therefore, “promotion” was supposed not to have been part of this. So, if it is not recorded, then it is unfortunate and I think we can accept the proposed amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    What rendition shall we then have?
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just delete “promotion” and that ends it.
    Dr A. A. Osei 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, with respect, I mean, if this is the Votes and Proceedings and we are now saying that we should abandon it, I have a great difficulty. This issue came up, it was voted on and that amendment was defeated. But here, this is a record of it, there was no amendment to delete the word “promotion”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Hon Dr Akoto Osei, we will not want to belabour this point because at the Consideration Stage, we are even entitled to go forward and backward. So, Chairman of the Committee, I would want you to please, just let us make progress by telling us your position on the point raised by Hon Dr Prempeh, then we can proceed.
    Hon Chairman of the Committee first.
    Mr Puozaa 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I will support the amendment being made that the word “promotion” be deleted from this subclause.
    Mr Dery 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think that it will be a serious omission, serious lacuna to remove “promotion” because we have got trends just last -- on the same Thursday before I left, we were talking about the “African Charter on Good Governance”; we were talking about parity and whatever and you are saying that gender should not be considered when it comes to promotion. We cannot pass such medieval laws in this country, in this Parliament and in this age, 2010. We cannot do that because gender must be part of the consideration. It is part of it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
    Well, I think this alone tells us that the matter is not resolved. So Hon Minister for Communications, you may make your contribution.
    Mr H. Iddrisu 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I will plead with Hon Dr Matthew Prempeh to consider abandoning his amendment. As you are aware, within the university community, you have your own levels of progression -- Professor, Associate Professor. There are areas where even today, if you do an analysis of the gender composition of the academics within the University of Ghana, you will see a weaker link in terms of females having opportunity to grow the ladder. If for instance, you had five opportunities for promotion, because it affects other privileges and honours, and three were women and two were men but your opportunity to have the promotion done is maybe, just in respect of two, if we do not have laws of this nature, the tendency may be to give it to two male professors to the detriment and disadvantage of our female professors. If you read further on page 4, it says:
    “. . .will be conscious of the need for gender balance.”
    That qualifies the word “promotion”. It is not just saying that promote on the basis of gender but that be guided by gender considerations when there are opportunities for promotion.
    With that, I support the Deputy Minority Leader and would urge my Hon Colleague to take a second look at it.
    Dr Prempeh 12:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yourself being a member of the academia, we should not put things in law that actually makes us laughable. I remember very well, your comment that when it comes to the promotion in universities, there are well laid down criteria and to consider somebody because he is from a minority grouping -- so he should be considered or because of his gender -- Article 17 of our own Constitution frowns on that -- that will be discriminatory.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with you totally on
    Prof. Gyan-Baffour 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the trend of activities in the universities actually support the view that gender should be taken into consideration when you are actually promoting. Implied in that argument is the affirmative action position of the entire world. And in fact, it is because of the socially constructed reality of discrimination against women over a long period of time.
    So, what is here is actually going to say that assuming that a madam and a man are all equally qualified, with the same level, we have to give the chance to the woman. That is all that it is saying and it is actually in line with the best practices that are going on round the globe. So I think that we should not expunge “promotion” from clause 4 (c).
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mrs Eugenia G. Kusi 12:50 p.m.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    No. Hon Member, I will call you; but I thought there was nobody on my right. So, once there is an Hon Member on my right, I will call him.
    Dr Ahmed Y. Alhassan 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think the tendency is for people to always think that once consciousness of a minority group is introduced, in respect of benefiting from a facility, then you are lowering the standard to favour. It is not the case.
    It is just being said that, the university must look at itself in terms of equalling opportunity for all shades of opinion within its community. And if it becomes
    Dr Ahmed Y. Alhassan 12:50 p.m.


    necessary for the university to consciously discriminate to bring up those who are far behind in that community, so be it.

    That is not to say that promotion is based on merit, only on university campuses. Promotion is supposed to be on merit everywhere. If it is not on merit, something definitely is wrong. And in that light, I think Hon Dr Prempeh should be persuaded to drop his amendment.

    Thank you.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Members, I think - Hon Mrs Kusi.
    Mrs Gifty E. Kusi 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am delighted here this afternoon that this Parliament, we have got men who are gender sensitive. And Ghana is going a long way by the way people have supported this idea. I congratulate them and urge you to go along with the Deputy Minority Leader and forget about what Dr Prempeh is saying. We support the men of this august House, all of you need to be commended.
    Mr Speaker, I thank you.
    Mr Joseph Y. Chireh 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the word “promotion” must remain because if you want to qualify the thing by the gender issue we are raising and you talk immediately of recruitment, admissions, then you leave out promotion, it does not make sense. In fact, if it is the discrimination, it started from the recruitment and admissions.
    So, how can you discriminate there and in the middle, leave the thing hanging? What my Colleagues have said previously is the correct thing to do. We always assume that when you talk about a woman getting a position, she is coming with a lower level of performance; that is not true.
    We have discriminated against them and I agree entirely with what he said that if you have done the interviews, you
    will see that the woman is at par but the tendency for you [Interruptions] oh, the man would have had so many people who have contacted you with drinks and all that; this woman would be restricted somewhere doing hardwork. She should be given the opportunity and that is all that this “promotion” is talking about. I support that it be retained. So his amendment should be rejected by a loud “no”.
    Dr Prempeh 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, taking a cue from what has gone on, I will abandon the amendment.

    Clause 4 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 6 - Office of the Chancellor.
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 6, subclause (1), delete and insert the following:
    “There shall be a Chancellor of the university who shall be one of 3 nominees of the President elected by an Electoral College.”
    Mr Speaker, the reason which I am making this proposal is that we must take cue from our circumstances. Mr Speaker, we are a developing country, we are a developing democracy. Mr Speaker, it is good to keep change and keep pace with modernity. But we should be careful moving from one extreme end to the other.
    It is good that when you want to make changes, you thread cautiously in a manner that will not derail the effort that you have made so far. Mr Speaker, we are moving from a place where the President used to be the Chancellor. I agree, the universities, we need to give them some room to be able to operate administratively
    without much problem.
    But Mr Speaker, if we take cue from what we did with the Public Utilities Regulatory Commission (PURC) -- the Act, where we said that the PURC will set its own tariffs, there will be no interference, there will be no directive from any quarters-- Each time they take this mandate and act, you have everybody calling “Government, Government, and Government”. We are in a developing country and as we Sit today, Government is still the main financier of the universities. And I think it will be a dangerous trend where we would say the universities should take their own procedure, elect a Chancellor, where the Government or the political head has no hand in it.
    That is why I am proposing, to be able to move away from the extreme end of the President being the Chancellor or appointing somebody to be the Chancellor, he nominates three persons, then they use the Catholic system to elect one of them so that there would be some kind of tandem with the political head.
    With this, I hope my Colleagues, being politicians ourselves, we need to be very careful the way t we throw our hands in a manner that when there are problems, we will not be in a position to be able to solve them. Therefore, I hope that Hon Members would support this proposed amendment.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Puozaa 12:50 p.m.
    The Committee really deliberated at length over this and --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    It is always useful to refer the proposal to the Chairman of the Committee and then after his comments, other Hon Members come to -- so it would be very good if Members will appreciate this.
    Mr Puozaa 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Please, the Chairman of the Committee will finish making his observation. I will advise Hon Members to please, maintain their cool. After a proposal has been made, the Chairman of the Committee is an appropriate person to comment thereon, thereafter, Hon Members may make their contributions.
    Chairman of the Committee, you may continue.
    Mr Puozaa 12:50 p.m.
    I am simply presenting to you issues that came up at the Committee's meeting and I think that is the right thing. - [Interruptions]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Order!
    Mr Puozaa 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, so the new proposition that is being made has no problem and we do not have a problem with it. But then, instead of three members, it should rather be four, in order to make room for the number of 21 members that we are envisaging. So, we propose that the number should be four and not three.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am sorry but I would have thought that after Hon Members have contributed, then
    the Hon Chairman would somehow have the last but one say, or the Hon Minister first and then the Hon Chairman would have the last say. For instance, I may disagree with the Hon Chairman and depending on the arguments, the Hon Chairman may well take note that, well he ought to amend his position and even the Hon Minister. But when the Hon Chairman and the Hon Minister start this argument -- the debate, it somehow does not give them the opportunity to listen to others and then give their final view. So, if you could permit us to contribute and thereafter, the Hon Minister and then the Hon Chairman, it may help us.
    Mr H. Iddrisu 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to strongly oppose the proposed amendment by the Hon Alhaji Mohammed-Mubarak Muntaka and in doing so, to refer you to article 21 and article 195 (3) of the Constitution.
    Article 21 of the Constitution talks about freedom of thought, conscience and belief, which shall include academic freedom. Article 195(3) of the Constitution states, and with your indulgence, I will quote:
    “The power to appoint persons to hold or act in an office in a body of higher education, research or professional training, shall vest in the council or other governing body of that institution or body.”
    Mr Speaker, therefore, to draw in the President in this matter, is neither here nor there. Even as we mature in our democracy, regrettably, we have been very petty as a country. We have seen it under the previous Administration; we are witnessing it under this Administration where appointments, purely on the basis of the President exercising his mandate, have been reviewed.
    I think that the university is such a specialised institution that if we need to enhance the frontiers of academic freedom, there should not be political interference in the process of appointing the principal and key officers of the
    Mr H. Iddrisu 1 p.m.


    institution.

    We, therefore, must assure the institution of independence in the decisions that they take in determining who the key officers are.

    With that, Mr Speaker, I would urge my Hon Colleague to withdraw his amendment and allow us to make some progress.
    Mr Dery 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I totally associate myself with the submissions of Hon Haruna Iddrisu, which makes this totally unconstitutional. But just to also refer to the purported support that the Hon Chairman of the Committee sought to grant the Hon Member of Parliament and to say that he talking about there being no modus, the way to nominate, clause 6 (4) clearly states it, and Mr Speaker, with your permission, I beg to quote:
    “6 (4) The criteria and modalities for the nomination and election of the Chancellor shall be prescribed by statutes of the university but the election shall be without debate.”
    Mr Speaker, that means that it is not only unconstitutional but there is no reason we should even go there at all, which makes it doubly wrong and should be abandoned ab initio.
    Mr Agbesi 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I also agree with the Hon Members who spoke earlier, that apart from the constitutional provision, the issue to take educational matters out of politics must be advocated for. It is on this ground that I also object and reject the amendment. Mr Speaker, the President - [Interruption.] Mr Speaker, I object to this amendment and so it should be withdrawn.
    Alhaji Muntaka 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, judging from the mood of my Hon Senior and other Colleagues, when they talk about the Constitution, I would have wished that
    they read the clause very well --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Hon Muntaka, are you winding up so that we put the Question or you are abandoning it?
    Alhaji Muntaka 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am winding up. Like I rightly said, I would want those who made reference to the Constitution to go and look at it very well. It does not refer to the Chancellor.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Very well. I will put the Question.
    Alhaji Muntaka 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, having judged the mood of Hon Members, I want to --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Very well, I will put the Question. All those in favour -
    Alhaji Muntaka 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I want to withdraw the amendment so that we can make progress.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    No, Hon Member, we can make progress by putting the Question. But let us learn to be fair to this House. When we have arrived at a situation where we know that we have to abandon a position, let us be honest with it or let us be frank about it and then we make progress. Otherwise, sometimes we do not really know what we are doing. Is the amendment abandoned?
    Alhaji Muntaka 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, rightly so.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, there is a further amendment on the White Paper.
    Mr Boafo 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move,
    clause 6, subclause (4) line 3, delete “without debate”.
    Mr Speaker, clause 6 (4) makes provision that the election of the Chancellor shall be without debate. I believe the Electoral College should be given the opportunity to express their views on the candidates who would be nominated for the appointment. It is in tune with the principle of democracy, which is underlying the provisions of the current statute before us.
    Mr Puozaa 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I do not think this amendment is very necessary because the position of Chancellor is a mere ceremonial position. It is the university Council that really runs the university. So that position should be without any debate as such because it is a ceremonial one and you do not need to campaign for it, so to speak. So I think there is no need for that amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    There is no need for that amendment?
    Mr H. Iddrisu 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to associate myself with Hon Boafo's amendment and that subclause (4), should read:
    “The criteria and modalities for the nomination and election of the Chancellor shall be prescribed by statutes of the university. . .”
    And it should end there; so we delete “but the election shall be without debate.”
    Mr Speaker, you have already indicated
    that -- [Interruption]-- it shall be prescribed by statute. So in defining, we will have an elaborate statute which will govern how this is done and the university
    itself will be guided by earlier practices. They have always in the last few years determined a Chancellor. So, we do not need to go further to say that “but the elections shall be without debate”. So, I support the amendment.
    Mr Pelpuo 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to give
    support to the proposed amendment by the Hon Minister for Communications.
    I think that if you are saying it should be
    in accordance with specified statute, you do not supersede the statute by some other reasons which you are indicating. Besides that, indeed, we actually would not expect that in academic circles, Chancellors or Vice Chancellors should be debating to be elected to occupy such positions.
    So, indeed, there should be no debate I support that but it should not be indicated in the law. Once we say it should be taken care of by the statute, that should remain there, Mr Speaker.
    Question put and amendment agreed
    to.
    Mr Puozaa 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 6, add the following new subclause:
    “(9) The Chancellor may delegate functions under subsection (8) by directions in writing to the University Council”.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I support the amendment but I was hoping that the Chairman would indicate to the House why this amendment.
    Mr Speaker, the Question was posed;
    so in the absence of the Chancellor, does it mean that you cannot have a congregation? That is what prompted this amendment, so that even in the absence of the Chancellor, the Chairman of the Council can preside over the congregation and then give the

    certificates. That is what has been done over the past three years or so. At least, at the time when I was a Minister; I attended two of them and it was the Chairman of the Council, not the Chancellor. But I was hoping that the Chairman, any time he proposes an amendment, would explain to the House, so that we do not have too much debate.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    And
    that is why after an amendment has been proposed, it is useful to call on the Chairman of the Committee, so that we will not have too much debate.
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, but this is an amendment from the Chairman himself on behalf of the Committee.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Yes.
    Dr Prempeh 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if that is
    the reason for this amendment, then it is totally out of place. Because Mr Speaker, if you read clause 8 (4), it is answered. Clause 8 (4) says
    “The chairperson of the University Council shall preside at meetings of the Council and where the Chancellor is absent, at congregations and other meetings and ceremonies of the university.”
    So if Mr Speaker, that was the only reason, then it is probably misplaced. However, I support fully the amendment but not for the reason the Hon Member for Sekondi just outlined. I have other reasons and with time I will put them across .
    Papa Owusu-Ankomah 1:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I thank the Hon Member for making this point so that it enables me to explain further for him to appreciate why this amendment is necessary.
    Mr Speaker, we are talking about a specific power conferred on a Chancellor, not to preside over congregations, confer on qualified persons, degrees, diplomas and certificates. You attend a congregation -- the congregation awards are conferred, but it is a general clause given for somebody to act in the absence of the Chancellor.
    However, it does not mean that the person has power to confer degrees, diplomas and certificates and that was why this amendment became necessary. Because at one time when a Chancellor wanted to delegate, he was asked, “do I have the power so to do in respect of the award of certificates and degrees?” That is the difference.
    Dr Prempeh 1:10 p.m.
    I beg to differ from my Hon Senior Colleague. Mr Speaker, when you look at clause 8, the Chairperson of the University Council when you look under the functions of the Chairperson of the University Council, it includes any time the Chancellor is not available; it is stated there black and white. So if that was the only reason, that was why I said I supported the amendment.
    But if it is for the only reason that it has not been stated in black and white in subclause (8) and we should add subclause (9), then it is wrong. [Interruption.] I still have other reasons. Mr Speaker, clause 4 does not restrict the University Council Chairperson for acting only at congregation, “and other meetings and ceremonies”. So there are three categories; congregation, other meetings and ceremonies. [Interruption.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    Order! Order!
    Dr Prempeh 1:10 p.m.
    I am being bullied.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:10 p.m.
    You
    will not be, Hon Member. Please, continue.
    Dr Prempeh 1:20 p.m.
    Thank you Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, I accept the fact that this has been lifted directly from the Constitution, when we read article 195(2), and Mr Speaker with your permission, I quote:
    “The President may, subject to such conditions as he may think fit, delegate some of his functions under this article by directions in writing to the governing council concerned or to a committee of the council or to any member of that governing council or to any public officer.”
    The President may delegate in writing these functions and it has been transplanted here.
    So, Mr Speaker, the Chancellor of the University, if he is not available for any ceremony at which he is due to be, then it is the Chairman of the Council that acts in his stead and it is covered by clause 8 (4).
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 6 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 7 - Vacancy in office of the Chancellor.
    Mr Puozaa 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 7, subclause (2), line 2, delete “a statute” and insert “the university's statutes”.
    Mr Speaker, this is just to qualify or to be specific on what statute we are referring to. We are referring to the university's statute.
    Question put and amendment agreed
    to.
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 7 deals with vacancy in the Office of the Chancellor and we have three events stated. And Mr Speaker, I seek permission to add the fourth one, and that is “by effluxion of time.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    You are adding “by effluxion of time”? Hon Member, we will get you but if you would simply elaborate it in a sentence or two why the addition.
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Chancellor from the three events listed is clearer that he is not elected forever. So, if his office term expires, there is a vacancy and that is what I am seeking to provide by adding “by effluxion of time”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    So that it will read as follows:
    “The Office of the Chancellor shall become vacant on:
    (a) resignation,
    (b) death; or
    (c) removal from office.”
    And then what? Do you want us to add that as (d) or what?
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as (d) or however, the draftspersons would arrange it as (d).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    So it will read as follows:
    “The Office of the Chancellor shall become vacant on:
    (a) resignation;

    (b) death; or

    (c) removal from office

    (d) effluxion of time”.

    Would you kindly elaborate on the words “effluxion of time” and in which circumstances, time is effluxed?
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have already stated what is meant by “effluxion of time.” Mr Speaker, if his term expires -[Interruption] - Mr Speaker, I prefer that expression because it is more crystalised.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, do you mean that by virtue of the fact that his term would have ended, The words “effluxion of time” could be rather vague, Hon Members? By effluxion of what time, without any reference at all to his contract or the period of his appointment or his tenure?
    Mr Emmanuel K. Bedzra 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 6 (5) has taken care of “effluxion of time.” It says:
    “The Chancellor shall hold office for the period of five years and he is eligible for re-appointment but shall not be appointed for more than two terms”.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    And which implies that his term ends at the end of the period of appointment. And that is why I was a bit skeptical about the adding of the words “effluxion of time.”
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I believe it does not spoil anything if it is inserted, it becomes more comprehensive and it becomes clearer to the person who will read it. He would not have to go back to clause 6 (5). But if that is the mood of the House, then Mr Speaker, I will abandon it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, you may want to proceed on the next proposed amendment on subclause
    3, line 3.
    Mr Boafo 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move clause 7, subclause (3), line (3), after “may” insert “in consultation with the Council.”
    Mr Speaker, the amendment is also to tighten the screws if I am to adopt some language by making it that the Chancellor in the exercise of the function assigned to him under clause 7 (3) should do so in consultation with the Council. So the new rendition will be as follows:
    “Without limiting the other roles of the Chancellor, where the integrity and welfare of the University are threatened by any matter, the Chancellor may in consultation with the Council use the good offices of the Chancellor to intervene.”
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    And the Hon Member would not want the Chancellor to come intervening without reference to the Council and to ensure that -
    Mr Puozaa 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is harmless.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    It is harmless and I will therefore, put the Question.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 7 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill
    Dr Prempeh 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, even though we have voted for clause 7, let us look at clause 7 (3) to see whether that is the right place it should be. The whole of clause 7 is talking about vacancy in the Office of the Chancellor, but clause 7 (3) is not talking about vacancy in the Office of the Chancellor. So, I think that when
    the drafters are putting the two together, they should move clause 7 (3) to clause 6 or somewhere appropriate.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Very well. The draftspersons may well take notice of that.
    Clause 8 - Chairperson of the University Council.
    Mr Boafo 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, under clause 8 (1), the right to appoint the Chairperson of the University Council is being vested in the Chancellor and he would do so from among the four persons nominated by the President as provided under clause 11 (1) (d).
    Mr Speaker, the amendment proposed seeks to continue with the concept of allowing the governing council of the university to make the appointment of principal officers of the university and the Chairperson of the Council is one of the principal officers of the university as provided by clause 5 (1) of the Bill. Mr Speaker, this proposal is in conformity with article 195 (5) of the Constitution which has just been read, that the power to appoint principal officers of the university shall be with the governing council or other higher authority of the university.
    If we proceed to adopt the provisions of this clause, we would be sinning against the provisions of the Constitution --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Member, if you would kindly read that aspect of the Constitution again for the sake of certainty and clarification.
    Mr Boafo 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, article 195 (3) states as follows -
    “The power to appoint persons to hold or act in an office in a body of higher education, research or professional training, shall vest in the council or other governing body of that institution or body.”
    Mr Speaker, this is clear.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Thank
    you very much, Hon Member. It is a constitutional matter.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    And we are very grateful to Hon Boafo particularly for matters regarding constitutional amendments.
    Chairman of the Committee, these matters should be taken note of in future matters.
    Mr Boafo 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this amendment seeks to deal with subclause (2), where the terms and conditions of the Chairpersons would be specified in the letter of appointment. Mr Speaker, we have a situation where the university is to provide for its statutes and if you go to the relevant provision in the Bill dealing with university statutes, that is clause 33 - it states, and with your permission, I quote clause 33 (1) -
    “The University Council may enact statutes for carrying this Act into effect and in particular to --
    (a) Regulate the;
    (i) Appointment; (ii) Conditions of service;
    ( i i i ) T e r m i n a t i o n o f appointment, and;

    (iv) Retirement benefit of employees of the university.

    Mr Speaker, the Chairperson is one of the principal officers of the university and the proposed amendment seeks to provide that the terms and conditions should be specified in the statutes of the university.
    Dr Prempeh 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would like your direction from where we are going. Article 195 Mr Speaker, to all intents and purposes, is being used here very wrongly. Article 195 (3) of the Constitution, Mr Speaker, if I may read -
    “The power to appoint persons to hold or act in an office in a body of higher education, research or professional training, shall vest in the council or other governing body of that institution or body.”
    So Mr Speaker, it is explicit. It is only to the appointment in the body of that higher education or for that matter the University of Ghana; everything other than anything below the University Council. Because when you go to sub- clause (2), it states -
    “The President may, subject to such conditions as he may think fit, delegate some of his functions under this article by directions in writing to the governing council …”
    Mr Speaker, when you come to the Bill, it designates four people as principal officers of the university that the President might have to swear in or the Chancellor. They are the Chancellor, the Chairperson of the University Council and the Vice Chancellor. Mr Speaker, this Bill does not intend to make the chairperson of the University Council part of the generality or the general body of the University Council. He is a different person. He is the inter pares of the Counci, Mr Speaker.
    The amendment proffered by Hon William O. Boafo and his explanation that when you go to clause 11 (d), the Vice Chancellor should be one of those four persons appointed by the President is wrong. It is wrong in the intent of this Bill because the Chancellor, the Chairman of the University Council, the Vice Chancellor are principal officers of the university and they are to be treated separately.
    So Mr Speaker, even though we have gone past, I want to address your mind to articles 195 (2) and 195 (3) and how some of my senior Colleagues are going in a certain direction. Because very soon we would reach somewhere that we would have to go back to where we started from.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Members, “principal officers” is inclusive of an office in the university. The bigger word is “office”, and for that matter, for any office whatsoever in the university, the idea is to protect academic freedom and to insulate the university from political interference as much as possible, and that is very, very clearly provided for in that article and I do not think we have any difficulty at all.
    Prof Gyan-Baffour 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you are right. I think even putting aside the Constitutional issue, if the highest authority there, the Chancellor himself is not being appointed by the President, how come that a Chairperson who is below the Chancellor should be appointed by the President? Even if you look at the logic, it does not flow that way notwithstanding the constitutional provision. So I think the amendment here is right.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    And if we were to read the debate on the constitutional proposals, particularly from 1969 -- This comes from the 1969, 1979
    Mr Boafo 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, you were about to put the Question on clause 8 (2).
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Member, you wanted to make a contribution on clause 8(2)?
    Mr Bedzrah 1:30 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Speaker, the clause 8 (2) says that - “The chairperson” -- sorry, I have abandoned my -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    You have abandoned it?
    Mr Bedzra 1:30 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 8,
    subclause (3), talks about matters which should be taken into account when the chairperson is being appointed by the Council. Mr Speaker, it reads:
    “… the pe r son's academic qualifications, leadership qualities, e x p e r t i s e , k n o w l e d g e a n d experience in matters relevant to tertiary institutions.”
    Mr Speaker, the proposed amendment is to particularise the expertise, knowledge and experience in matters relevant to the internal organization of the university in particular and tertiary institutions in general.
    Mr Puozaa 1:40 p.m.
    What is the difference
    between that and tertiary institutions? “Tertiary institutions”, I believe - as it stands -- will take care of the internal organisations and other aspects.
    Mr Dery 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am sure we
    are having a second look at this. Because if you also look at the internal organisation of the university in particular, it will mean that you are eliminating a group of people who might have the same competence and coming from other tertiary institutions to take office. So, I do not know what purpose it serves. I am sure my Hon Friend, Hon Boafo, would think about it and advise himself and inform us.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    But
    let us be mindful of the fact that you have two legs. Mr Boafo, it appears this amendment stands on two legs. First, that the Chancellor, not the Council, should act. And you are proposing that “the Council” should be inserted in place of “the Chancellor”.
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is the
    first one.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Let us get them very clear so that we make separate judgements on both.
    In the first place, can you give your justification for substituting “Council” for “Chancellor”?
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is consequential on the amendment accepted in respect of subclause (1).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Hon Members, any objection to that? That is consequential. In fact, that is exactly why I wanted us to decouple Hon Boafo's -
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Then, the second leg. In place of “tertiary institutions” insert “the internal organisation of the university in particular”.
    Hon Boafo, are you inclined to abandoning that amendment?
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in view of the
    explanation given by the Hon Chairman, I abandon the amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Thank you, very much. We would proceed accordingly.
    Hon Boafo, you have another amendment, the last one as on clause 8.
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in view of clause 33 (1) which provides that the statutes should contain conditions of service and so forth, I would abandon the proposed amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    That also is abandoned. Then, I would put the Question on the entire clause 8 at this stage.
    Question put and motion agreed to.
    Clause 8 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 9 - The Vice Chancellor.
    Mr Puozaa 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 9 add a new subclause, the following:
    “(3) The Vice Chancellor shall hold office for a period up to four years and shall be eligible for reappointment up
    to another term only.”
    This really is to give a time limit other than what is stated here in clause 9.
    So, that is, if you go through the whole
    of clause 9, there is no place where a term of service is stated. So, it is important to add this new clause to it. That is adding a new subclause to clause 9. And I am explaining that, it is important to add it in order to give time limit to that position.
    Question put and amendment agreed
    to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Further
    amendment on the white paper in the name of Hon Boafo.
    Mr Boafo 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the proposed amendment seeks to adopt clause 8 (3) to apply to the Vice Chancellor. Clause 8 (3) deals with matters which should be taken into account in the appointment of the Chancellor, that is the person's academic qualification or - sorry Mr Speaker, I would abandon that amendment.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    It is
    abandoned.
    Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 11 - The University Council.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Hon
    Muntaka? - [Pause.] He is not here to pursue the amendment?
    Hon Chairman of the Committee, you want to pursue the amendment or it is better abandoned? Abandoned?
    Clause 11, Hon Chairman of the
    Committee?
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to
    move, clause 11, subclause (1), paragraph (j), line 1, delete “four” and insert “five” and at end of line 2, add “two of whom are women”.
    This has been necessary because we wanted to get an odd number. So we decided to increase the number of those to be appointed by Government to five. And then we also felt that we should take care of the gender aspect of it. So we stated categorically that two of them shall be women.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    So they should be five members?
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    But I always like this rendition: “At least, two of whom shall be women”. Because it is possible to have three of them to be women and so if three women are the best qualified, you are now trying to say they should not be and that cannot be. Maybe, the three women may be the best qualified. So, “at least, two of whom shall be women”. Agreable, Mr Chairman?
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Further amendment in the name of Hon Muntaka. [Pause.]
    Hon Chairman, do you want to carry any of those amendments in the name of Hon Muntaka or does any other Member want to carry it?
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think we can do without it.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    We shall move to the white paper then. Clause 11, further amendment in the name of Hon Boafo.
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, clause 1, the need for gender balance.
    Mr Speaker, the amendment seeks to include persons with disabilities.
    Mr Dery 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would like to say that whatever the motive, I believe Hon Boafo might have good motives for what he is talking about. But we cannot put gender balance with disabilities in the same line except that also saying that apart from balancing, you also have to go and look for people with disabilities, in which case, it would be discriminating against those who do not have disabilities or those who are differently able, as I prefer to call them.
    So Mr Speaker, I think if they decouple “disabilities” and place it somewhere, it might be acceptable. But it is unacceptable to put “disabilities” with “gender balance.” Because the provision by itself does not say all the people appointed must not have disability. It is gender, so one could have disabilities and still qualify.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, are you abandoning this particular amendment?
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is abandoned. Mr Speaker, in my constituency, I have two disabilities institutions and it is known to the Hon Minister for Education. I have School for the Deaf; I have School for the Blind. So I must, as a representative of that constituency, advocate for their interest.
    Clause 11 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 12 - Functions of the Council
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    There is no proposed amendment on the yellow paper; Hon Boafo's has proposed an amendment on the white paper.
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Members shall catch my eye by standing and not by whispering. [Laughter.]
    Mr. Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker,t his proposal - [Interruptions.]
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Order! Order!
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    If we can stand it down, I want to winnow it with the Chairman and the Hon Minister.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, you are not inclined towards moving the amendment at this stage?
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Not at this stage.
    Clause 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, what is your position at this stage?
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I did not think of a Second Consideration; I thought we had stood down certain proposed amendments and -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    At this stage, it is only clause 12 that will be stood down. But if you want us to have it stood down for now, while you consider further --
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Very well. Clause 13, no advertised amendment on the yellow paper. Hon Boafo has an amendment on the white paper.
    Clause 13 - Terms of office of members of the Council.
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 13, subclause (3), I think it should be placed under the Head notes: “Terms of office of members of the Council.” But clause 13 (3) deals with attendance at meetings. It has nothing to do with term of office of the Council. So my proposal is that the draftspersons should look at the proper place for its insertion. That equally applies to clause -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Member, can you go step by step?
    Mr. Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it should read: “subclauses 3 and 4” -- not “line 4”, remove and place under clause 14.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    So the word “line”, there should be “and”? So “subclauses (3) and (4), remove and place under clause 14”. Is that not so?
    Mr Boafo 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, subclause (3) under 13 deals with attendance at meetings of the Council, which has no place under the heading dealing with terms of office of members of the Council.
    And then subclause (4) deals with remuneration for members of the Council. It has nothing to do with the terms of office of --
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Members, having regard to the state of Business in the House and the time at the moment, I direct that proceedings be held outside the prescribed period.
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we accept the amendment -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee, is that agreeable to you?
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    Yes, Mr Speaker, we do--
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Chairman of the Committee, please, complete your statement.
    Mr Puozaa 1:50 p.m.
    There is a point of clarification. We do accept the amendment but I think it should go to clause 15 and not clause 14.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    That is its appropriate place. The draftspersons to take not of that.
    Mr Stephen K.B. Manu 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you look at the heading, it talks about terms. Terms can include conditions. If we go to the Ministry of Education and Ghana Education Service, to be specific, we have terms and conditions for teachers and they come under the same heading. So when clause 13 (4) is talking about remuneration and allowances and we are saying it has nothing to do with terms and therefor,e we should move it away, I think I cannot agree.
    Mr Dery 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as I indicated at the beginning of this whole exercise, namely, dealing with the University Bill, the amendments on the white paper were brought in today. We just agreed at the Leadership meeting that we should try and see how we could marry the two sets of proposals as we go along. But you can
    see now that we are grinding now to a halt and there is a lot of confusion.
    For instance, I agree clearly with what Hon Balado Manu said that we cannot move subclause (4) away because it is part of the “term” and I am afraid it might be necessary for us to provide space for Hon W. O. Boafo to sit with the Chairman of the Committee so that we streamline things and we can continue with the University Bill tomorrow.
    We will make better progress, otherwise, we are going to spend the next few minutes moving forward and coming backward and I do not know how to situate most of these proposals. It is just between Hon W.O. Boafo and the Chairman to see how they could -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Hon Members, I think it can be appropriately flagged and put to the draftspersons to put this at the appropriate place because we have nothing against the provisions. Is that not so? But it is simply a matter of placement. So draftspersons to make appropriate placement and resolve the problem.
    Shall we make progress? Clause 13 to stand part of the Bill save that draftspersons should consider making appropriate placement.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Clause 13 as amended ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 14 - Members of the University Council
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Hon Minority Leader made an observation earlier that there may be the need for the Chairman and I, to winnow on the proposals so that it would facilitate the

    work of the House.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, if there is the need for winnowing of a particular clause, we will consider it on its merit separately. So if you may move this amendment -- or do you want this also to be stood down for further consideration later?
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if that is the wish, I think I will proceed with the -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    You want it also to be stood down or you want to move the amendment?
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you will allow us to move the amendment so that the rest would be subject to -
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Hon Boafo, are you inclined towards moving the amendment to clause 14?
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Please, proceed.
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 14, subclause 5, delete.
    Mr Speaker, clause 14 (5) provides that a member whose office has or will become vacant is legible for reappointment or re- election. But Mr Speaker, we have under clause 13 (1) and (2), same provisions. Clause 13 (1) deals with the members of the university other than the Vice Chancellor. It provides that they should hold office for a period of two years and it is eligible for reappointment for a second term. And clause 13 (2) deals with the members of the Council who are not members of the university. They shall hold office for a period of three years and they are eligible for reappointment for a second term.
    So Mr Speaker, I find clause 14 (5)
    redundant since it also deals with members of the University Council which has already been taken care of by clause 13 (1) and (2).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    So it is a mere repetition then?
    Chairman of the Committee, do you consider that as a mere repetition already provided for?
    rose
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Hon Member, are you inclined towards assisting the Chairman of the Committee?
    Chairman of the Committee, you have assistance, so you can come in later.
    Mr Bedzrah 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there are people who might not necessarily be the Vice Chancellor or Chancellor but they have enormous experience whose experience we need in the Council and when their term of office has expired, they can also be eligible for reappointment. That is why this clause is there. Therefore, Mr Speaker, I think the clause should remain.
    Mr Boafo 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I think my Hon Colleague is not appreciating my point. My point is that looking at clause 13 (1) and (2), we have provisions relating to the tenure of office and eligibility for another term by members of the Council who are members of the university and also members of the Council who are not members of the university excluding the Vice Chancellor; and clause 14 (5) appears to be a repetition of clause 13 (1) and (2).
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    There is a clear repetition. Hon Member, I am sure you have appreciated that?
    Mr Bedzrah 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, yes.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr Manu 2:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I rise on Standing Order 48 (1) and with your indulgence, quote that:
    “The presence of at least one-third of all the Members of Parliament besides the person presiding shall be necessary to constitute a quorum of the House.”
    Mr Speaker, if I look round, I can hardly say that we have one-third of all 230 Members of Parliament being present to make this deliberation a necessity. I therefore, beg to move, that given the lack of quorum, your Speakership, Sir, may consider bringing proceedings to a close.
    Mr Pelpuo 2:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I myself have been looking at you and have appreciated very much the length of time you have Sat, which in recent times, has been - is very scarce and I suppose that we could seek an adjournment. We simply did not put it forward. He has come on with the question of quorum, which also requires that Mr Speaker may allow ten more minutes while deliberations go on. But it has been our intention to seek an adjournment, so Mr Speaker may use his discretion to do so.
    Mr Dery 2:10 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I had indicated earlier that you could see from the sense of the House that we actually decided that we should give priority to the University of Ghana Bill. Otherwise, these proposals that were brought by Hon W. O. Boafo, we could have held the discussion for another
    day but we decided to start and to see how far we could go. But clearly, we can see now that -- I have been working with him here sometime to let him withdraw some of the amendments so that we can make progress. So, I believe if we continue tomorrow, he will use this afternoon with the Chairman to make sure that-- We might even eliminate some of the amendments and then we move forward.
    Mr Second Deputy Speaker 2:10 p.m.
    Thank you very much.
    Hon Members, the House will be adjourned till tomorrow 10 o'clock in the forenoon.
    ADJOURNMENT 2:10 p.m.