Debates of 7 Feb 2019

MR FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER
PRAYERS 10:50 a.m.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS AND THE OFFICIAL REPORT 10:50 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Members, correction of Votes and Proceedings for Wednesday 6th February,
2019.
Ms Sarah A. Safo 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I would humbly crave your indulgence and that of our Hon Colleagues on the other Side and come under Standing Order 53 to vary the order of business and take the Papers scheduled to be laid this morning.
Mr James K. Avedzi 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, it is in accordance with the Orders of the House.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Very well.
The order is hereby varied and we would take item numbered 4(a) instead of item numbered 3.
numbered 4(a), by the Minister for Energy.
PAPERS 10:50 a.m.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Hon Leader, do you want us to do the Motion or we should return to Statements?
Ms Safo 10:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we can revert to Statements.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 10:50 a.m.
Very well. I have admitted one Statement in the name of Dr Emmanuel Marfo, Hon Member for Oforikrom.
STATEMENTS 11 a.m.
Dr Emmanuel Marfo (NPP -- Oforikrom) 11 a.m.
Mr Speaker, for some time now, there has been public outcry for increasing Government's contribution to the development of Science, Technology and Innovation (STI) to close the technological gap between us and our contemporaries.
On 21st January, 2019, the President of the Republic, His Excellency Nana Addo Dankwa Akufo-Addo, at a national conference at Peduase on bridging the technology gap outlined Government's seven pillars of growth for Science and Technology in Ghana. To summarise, they are as follows:
1. setting up high-level Presidential Advisory Council on STI;
2. establishing Inter-Ministerial Coordinating Council on STI;
3. building partnership between government-public research institutes, scientific and academic community and industry;
4. committing, at least, one per cent GDP, in short-medium term and up to 2.5 per cent in the long term to the development of science and technology (STI);
5. promoting the teaching of Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM);
6. promulgating a legislation to support STI to implement national STI policy; and
7. focusing on the development of strategic technologies.
First of all, let us congratulate the Government and the President for outlining this vision, consistent with article 38 of the Constitution, to push STI forward to bring Ghana to needed level of development. Mr Speaker, the importance of STI to national development is too obvious and notorious that we need not over emphasise it.
Mr Speaker, for my purpose today, I would like to interrogate only one of the pillars and that is the commitment to providing, at least, one per cent of GDP to S&T development and to provoke a debate on this matter.
It is important to discuss the President's statement because Ghana, as part of our obligation under the SDG, has a commitment to substantially increase public and private spending on Research and Development (R&D) and to increase the number of researchers by 2020.
In addition, Ghana has subscribed to a number of continental-level obligations to commit, at least, one per cent of GDP to the development of science and technology.
Mr Speaker, at this juncture, let me indicate that the global indicator to assess the commitment of countries to the financing of science, technology and innovation is the Gross domestic expenditure on R&D (GERD), defined as
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:10 a.m.
Before I open the matter for debate, I want to remind Hon Members that it is our rule that Hon Members speak from their seats.
There are young people up there and they probably would have liked to know the name of the Hon Member speaking, but the name that came on the screen is Hon Abena Osei-Asare, even though they saw a man on his feet. So please be reminded that by Standing Order 86(1), which reads:
“A Member desiring to speak shall rise in his place, and address the Chair only after catching Mr Speaker's eye.”
Mr Ras Mubarak (NDC — Kumbungu) 11:10 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am very grateful and I would like to commend the Hon Member who made the Statement.
It is quite a very interesting Statement, well written and could not have come at a better time. And I think that as Members of Parliament and representatives of the people, we should be engaging our minds on issues like this.
Mr Speaker, aside the Ministries of Health and that of Education, if there is any Ministry that should be getting a lot of resource allocation, it should be the Ministry of Environment, Science, Technology and Innovation. And I say this because of the times that we live in.
Mr Speaker, if we look at countries that are generating a lot of resources from exports, they are countries that are exporting innovation. In this day and age, natural resources keep drying up, and there may come a time when we can no longer depend on the cocoa, bauxite, gold and oil that we have.
And the only thing that we would have an opportunity to be able to compete and actually take advantage of , is the area of science and technology. And I am happy that he mentioned research and development.
Mr Speaker, as a country and as a continent, we should be dedicating a lot of resources to research and development. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. Aside making beautiful Statements and commitments to dedicating resources, there are things that
we ought to be doing to ensure that our country also begins to produce or innovates in creating things.
For instance, there are a lot of mechanics in our country; if we go to Abossey Okai, Suame Magazine, and the rest of it. What if our country decided that we would no longer allow the importation of fuel guzzlers? And then, if people actually want to use vehicles that are fuel guzzlers within our own country, we would get people who would begin to think outside the box and create vehicles that can replace these fuel guzzlers.
However, we seem to have developed a penchant of importing just about everything, and we seem to be all right with importing them into our country.
I think the area of science and technology gives us a lot of advantages, and we should make good use of it.
Mr Speaker, on this Floor in this Seventh Parliament, this is about the umpteenth time that I have heard a Statement in respect of Science, Technology and Innovation, and every now and then, we keep discussing and debating it on the Floor and very little commitment is made to actualising the targets that we set for ourselves.
So I am hopeful that going forward, in a very bi-partisan manner, we would all support any efforts by the Government that would be geared towards promoting science, technology and innovation. And to be able to do that, we should be promoting science and mathematics.
If we look at our respective schools, whether at the Basic level, or the Senior High School level or the Tertiary level, the interests that are developed in the area of
science and mathematics seem to have gone down.
Mr Speaker, as a country, what is our place on the global ranking of countries that are doing very well in the area of science and mathematics? We are not doing well.
At the Basic level, we should be encouraging our sons and daughters to be interested in science and mathematics to promote it greatly and to support young people who have demonstrated an ability to be able to think outside the box and create things.
Mr Speaker, I am also hopeful that for the few people in our country, businesses and individuals who have, as a result of their own, created things, we should encourage Government to support these institutions and individuals to be able to do a lot more for our country.
Recently we were celebrating the All Nations University in Koforidua for sending an object into orbit. But since that Statement was made on the Floor and questions were asked, nothing has happened.
And if we were to speak to the All Nations University, they would tell us that they have received little or no support from the Ministry of Environment, Science, Technology and Innovation, and that is largely so because the Ministry itself it struggling with resource constraints.
Mr Speaker, so not to say much since other Hon Colleagues have a few things to say, I would encourage us to pay a lot of attention in dedicating a percentage of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to research and development.
And to try, as much as possible, to think outside the box and innovate, create and support people who have
Mr Ras Mubarak (NDC — Kumbungu) 11:10 a.m.


demonstrated an ability to support our country to grow.

Mr Speaker, today, America is making a lot of money with Apple Products. Just about everyone is using an iPhone or an iPad et cetera and if we look at the returns to the United States of America, it is huge. We can do something. There are opportunities.

Mr Speaker, finally, let us take, for instance, fuel. We have spoken about the effects of fossil fuel on our environment and the rest of it. People have used sugarcane as an alternative source even though others have protested against that because clearly, we cannot use food that are meant for human beings to create these, things.

But others are harnessing algae as an alternative source of fuel. And we have algae in just about every corner of our country. These are the source of things we should be harnessing.

I therefore endorse wholeheartedly the Statement ably made by my Hon Colleague and I echo the sentiments that he made.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Yaw Buaben Asamoa (NPP -- Adentan) 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to contribute to the Statement ably made by the Hon Member for Oforikrom. I seriously commend him on the Statement.
Mr Speaker, if our private sector which we have touted as the engine of growth is going to indeed, grow and drive this economy, we would need to focus on diversifying our colonial economy. Local
Mr Kwame Govers Agbodza (NDC -- Adaklu) 11:20 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the Statement ably made by my Hon Colleague from Oforikrom.
Mr Speaker, the Statement is very relevant today and it is at this time that we would have the opportunity to probably make things better. Indeed, we must be the generation to inspire our people to step foot on the moon or to colonise Mars. Science and technology are, indeed, no longer a choice for any society; it is just that you must be part of it otherwise.
Mr Kwame Govers Agbodza (NDC -- Adaklu) 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, we must first of all
acknowledge the fact that governments in the past took some steps or made efforts to improve on science and technology; right in schools, our hospitals, farms and everything. But I believe my Hon Colleague's attention is being drawn to the kind of investment we put in it.
But it is not going to be just as simple as increasing the budget of the Ministry of Environment, Science, Technology and Innovation and that would solve the situation. It has to be a collaborative effort underpinned by Government policy.
I do not see how giving a billion dollar to the Ministry alone would solve the problem when maybe, they do not even have the facilities; they do not have water and they do not have sustainable energy. So it has to be a combination of things.
Mr Speaker, we also need to review this from the baseline; where are we? Yes, we would want to go to the moon; we would want to be the people who use Tesla vehicles which means we do not use fossil fuel and other things but where are we at the moment? If we fail to acknowledge the baseline, we may be describing solutions that may not work.
Mr Speaker, it is not debatable but within some few years till today, we have made efforts; governments have made conscious efforts to improve the teaching and learning of mathematics and science right at the basic school level, the secondary schools and at the universities.
This is evident in the fact that we invested in Maths and Science Centres, improved the proficiency of maths and science teachers and other things.
Mr Speaker, it is also not lost to us that today, our farmers have better technology and better understanding of farming methods and food production and processing than before. I admit we can do better.
Mr Speaker, today, banking in our country is far better than in many places. You could issue instruction to your bank while sittin here this morning; and all these are developments that come at a cost to the State though it is not located in a particular Ministry; it is cross-sectorial.
Mr Speaker, I can see the Hon Minister for Communications; they have done a lot in terms of investment. As Mr Speaker may be aware, this House, in the past approved facilities that laid over 800 kilometres of fibre optics all in building the basis upon which science and technology can take place.

Mr Speaker, I believe today, when we say over 30 million people have access to telephony, it is an achievement. It means that we have improved our quality of life and we can make things better for ourselves.

Mr Speaker, I have seen other things being done by people in schools, and one of my Hon Colleagues just mentioned a university collaborating with some people in Japan to launch satellites among others. Indeed, that is an achievement although the satellite was not built in Ghana.

It was launched in the United States of America but the fact that a Ghanaian child could understand that people from his own stock could think and collaborate with others to do this is an improvement.

Indeed, Mr Speaker, even if a Ghanaian never sets foot on the moon in our lifetime, we should be the generation to inspire that

possibility and Parliament could be a good source of that inspiration. I would encourage the Government to rather have a holistic policy towards this.

I cannot see how a government can invest heavily in science and technology when even the gadgets it wants to use cannot have sustainable power supply. Which scientific laboratory will you operate or which scientific operation would you improve when electricity does not improve?

Mr Speaker, today, there may be Ghanaians who could even afford a Tesla car but they would not because they cannot power it.

Whereas transportation is a critical part of the show of development in science and technology, I cannot see a deliberate effort by the Government to catch up with others because, Mr Speaker, not to draw you into it but yourself being an expert in transportation in some sense, some vehicle manufacturers say that by 2020, they would cease the production of vehicles that use fossil fuel.

What this means is that over a period of time, if we do not take things seriously, there would be none of those vehicles coming to Ghana.

A Tesla vehicle is just US$33,000.00 which is cheaper than a Land cruiser but nobody in Ghana can use it because it is simply not possible for one to charge it safely.

I think it is not difficult for us to do that, so whether it is science and technology, healthcare, agriculture or transportation, the Statement is calling upon Parliament and the country to consider the baseline and make the

necessary investment so that we do not fall behind in terms of what the world is doing.

Indeed, science and technology is money. When we hear China and others fighting to be the ones to go to the moon, it is not for funfare. Some people even believe there are resources on those other heavenly bodies that could be tapped for economic purposes.

So I believe the Statement is apt and it should ginger our minds to see how we could all collaborate with Government to develop science and technology to make a better world for ourselves and for others.

I would want to commend my Hon Colleague for making the Statement and encourage other Hon Colleagues to support same.

I thank you very much for the opportunity.

Deputy Minister for Environment, Science, Technology and Innovation (Ms Patricia Appiagyei) (MP): Mr Speaker, I thank you and would like to commend the Hon Member who made the Statement for such an interesting one which I believe every Member of Parliament must pay attention to and contribute to.

There is no denying the fact that the President has stated that he has launched a policy that would place science, technology and innovation at the centre of the country's development.

The Hon Member who made the Statement interrogates the basics of how we would achieve this. How would we allocate the right resources and moneys required?

He identified in his Statement that, even if we are to allocate one per cent of our budget for 2019 for research and
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:30 a.m.
Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation, is it the Ministry of Finance or this House that would allocate?
Ms Appiagyei 11:30 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I am sorry. I withdraw that statement.
I would like to encourage every Hon Member of this House to ensure that when the President makes the final commitment, the budget would ensure that we have adequate funding.
Currently, if I have to place it in the African context, one of the countries that have actually put science, technology and innovation at the core of its development is South Africa and our percentage of GDP is not even one per cent. It is about 0.88 per cent at the moment.
As a country, it only needs our commitment and, therefore, Hon Members of this Parliament should ensure that we underscore the need to place science, technology and innovation at the core of our development. We have to ensure that we allocate the right funding for the science and technology agenda.
We also have to ensure that we have the right data to drive this agenda.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Dr Heloo?
Dr Bernice A. Heloo (NDC-- Hohoe) 11:40 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would also want to commend the Hon Member who made the Statement and all other contributors for the insightful contributions made.
Mr Speaker, I have only two points to make. One of them is about the fact that we, as Ghanaians, do not seem to respect our own innovations. We put a lot of money and we even look for more, which is in the right direction; but when products are produced, we tend to neglect those ones and purchase cheaper ones from other countries.
I would talk about the fufu powder that was promoted by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR). This is a very quick way of making such food, and it saves a lot of time and energy; but what do we see? As soon as it became popular on the market, machinery from some countries have come into the market, and we have neglected what we produced ourselves.
Mr Speaker, we talk about the economy of scale. Sometimes people compare the prices of Ghana-made items based on innovation with those that are imported.
The fact is that if we do not patronise, how would the products become cheaper
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Leader -- ?
Ms Safo 11:40 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I have a point of information to the Hon Member.
All the two pick-up vehicles that are in my constituency are Kantanka made. [Hear! Hear!] Before I entered Parliament, I liked the handmade Kantanka vehicle that people thought was not too good.
That was what I used for my campaign, and it is still in my house as we speak. [Interruption.] So we encourage them to join -- I commend her, but that information should be on record.
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
I know two Hon Members who use Kantanka vehicles apart from her. I am one, and Hon Patrick
Boamah also uses two pick-up vehicles from Kantanka. So I would want to see more of us buy from Kantanka and promote it. I use Kantanka K71.
Dr Heloo 11:40 a.m.
The offer or privilege has not been extended to me. [Laughter.] If it is done and I understand it, I would use the vehicle.
On that note, it is high time we like, appreciate and promote our own innovations.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:40 a.m.
Hon Gyato wants to speak; I have not heard his voice for a while.
Mr Michael Gyato (NPP-- Krachi East) 11:40 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I also thank the Hon Member who made the Statement.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Member who made the Statement actually touched on what we could do on research and development. Most of our industries and factories are supposed to devote part of their revenue to do research and development; but in most cases, they do not even undertake them.
In this global village, a commodity is produced today and the same thing is produced by somebody in another country. Before one realises, there is a proliferation of those items in our country.
So while I commend him for the able nature in which he made the Statement, I would also want to urge our industries to devote some of their revenues or profits to research and development.
The Government cannot do it alone. So if they a re able to spend some of their moneys to do further research --
today, one would come up with a very nice door; tomorrow, somebody would come with another door with some additions.
With the additions, the first one is out of use and people would not patronise it again. So I would want to use this opportunity to appeal to our brothers and sisters who are into industry to spend part of their moneys in research and development.
I would also want to add that when we were young, we used to do art and crafts. Through that, people came out with some innovations. When those innovations are harnessed, it would go a long way to help us.
Unfortunately, in our schools now, we do not have the arts and crafts ongoing; but be it as it may, we go to our villages or on social media and realise that people come up with a lot of innovations. Sometime past, I saw some remote doors and wardrobes that were developed by somebody using technology, such that one could use the knob or a finger to open it.
Unfortunately, these people are not helped so they are not noticed, so that they would bring them to the fore. We urged them to actually develop these products as they go along and we leave them to rot at the end of the day, we do not do anything about it.
Mr Speaker, most of our universities actually come up with a lot of research and innovative issues that need to be harnessed. Unfortunately, we did not use them.
That is why I would want to urge that the submission made by Hon Patricia Appiagyei that we should have a central
pool where those who are able to come up with innovations, are encouraged and resourced to further develop it so that at least, the country would benefit from their toils.
Also, we should go for the universities and encourage them to come up with the innovations that could help them so that at the end of the day, Ghana would be the beneficiary.
Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity.
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon Chairman, after this, I would take one more from either Side and then --
Mr Ebenezar Okletey Terlabi (NDC -- Lower Manya Krobo) 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I thank my Hon Colleague for coming up with this Statement.
Mr Speaker, going through the Statement, I recognised the fact that the issues raised are not new as we have always talked about them insofar as the promotion of science, technology and innovation is concerned in this country.
The bottom line is money; how much are we prepared to put into innovation? How much have we spent insofar as innovation is concerned in this country, and are we prepared to do that?
Mr Speaker, I do not think that we are ready because if my memory serves me right, we have set up a lot of committees and commissions, -- I remember the first Vice-Chancellor of the University of Ghana -- I have forgotten his name -- from Professors Baffour and Addai-
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
All right, I will give you the last word on the Majority Side.
Mr Alex K. Agyekum (NPP -- Mpohor) 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, let me begin my contribution by thanking you for showing leadership for the fact that at least, you have decided to patronise the product of an industry in Ghana and that is the way to go.
Mr Speaker, I am looking out for a day where, as part of Government's policy, there will be a direction that all Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) that want to import a particular vehicle should channel their resources through Kantanka Automobile and if they do not want Government's support, they should go their own way, but if they really want the support of Government, that is the way to go.
I believe that by so doing, the improvement that we all expect from Kantanka Automobile to exhibit compared to the foreign products will be enhanced.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Member who made the Statement touched on very critical points and I would want to believe that at the pleasure of Mr Speaker, this debate will be re-visited for us to have an in-depth look at it.
Fortunately, we have the Hon Deputy Minister for Environment, Science, Technology and Innovation here and she has not come here to give us a policy statement of her Ministry but at least, the
points that she outlined, gives us a synopsis of what she intends to do with her substantive Hon Minister.

Mr Speaker, I am happy --
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon Member, hold on. Yes, Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation?
Dr A. A. Osei 11:50 a.m.
Mr Speaker, I just want to remind my good friend that in this House, we do not refer to our Hon Colleagues as ‘he' or ‘she' but we use; the Hon lady or Hon Deputy Minister. That is the norm in this House; the Hon Member cannot say ‘she'. There is no ‘she' here.[Laughter.]
Mr First Deputy Speaker 11:50 a.m.
Hon Member, be guided.
Mr Agyekum noon
Mr Speaker, I am guided. She is not a ‘she', she is an Hon lady. [Laughter.] -- The Hon lady will be at the forefront in championing the very things that she has stated this morning.
Mr Speaker, research findings pay, and especially in our global settings where we collaborate in the field of agriculture and industry, there is always the need for cross-fertilisation of ideas.
One would go into a particular research that is so innovative in the field of agriculture but one does not keep that on his shelf. There are so many international bodies that need some of these findings.
Mr First Deputy Speaker noon
Hon Member, the statement is that, the President has committed to allocate 1 per cent of GDP to science, innovation and technology. He is asking how as Members of Parliament (MPs), we would ensure that it is actually allocated?
If his allocation is this much, how do we know where it goes? Let us discuss our role in ensuring that the President walks his talk so that we can truly ensure that indeed, the President has done that.
Let us discuss that one. As for the money not being there, the President knows, but he decided that he would give 1 per cent. All he would want us to discuss is how Parliament ensures that he gives us the 1 per cent.
I think we have driven too far, but please conclude.
Mr Agyekum noon
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am guided by that.
I am just asking for a collaboration between the academia and industry, but I believe we, as legislators, can also do more, especially when there is a particular industry that comes up with innovation.
As a House, we must ensure through our Committees that the relevant tax holidays and exemptions are given to such industries so that it would make them more competitive and allow them space to develop.
Mr Speaker, finally, I would want to draw your attention to the basis of what we are talking about. We are talking about all these things because we would want to be in line with the global research and development so that as a country, we would not be left out. But it begins from where we are training our children.
Mr Speaker, we sometimes visit our wards in various schools; we go there during their speech days; the children exhibit some kind of innovation and even when it is time to go and see what our children have done, we leave without inspecting them. Some of these are part of the things that would also enhance the innovation that we all cry for.
Again, the resources that could be allocated to some agencies like the Ghana Association of Science Teachers (GAST), I believe the Ministry of Education and
Parliament's Committee would take note of that and ensure that the Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVET) programme that the Hon Minister has outlined is supported in terms of budget allocation so that the vision could be carried out.
Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity and hope that at the appropriate time, at your pleasure, these debates would be revisited so that we can all contribute meaningfully to it.
Dr Kwabena Donkor (NDC -- Pru East) 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I would want to appreciate the President for pledging 1 per cent of our GDP to research and development.
However, in appreciating the President, I would still want to say that he is not doing this in his personal capacity as Nana Akufo-Addo but in his capacity as the President of the Republic of Ghana. Therefore it is the Ghanaian State which is making this pledge.
In recognising that this pledge is coming from the Ghanaian State, I think the pledge is a little too low. one per cent is on the lower side. If we take the critical role of research and development in the 21st Century, a nation devoting one per cent of its GDP to research and development is a nation just beginning to recognising research and development.
Mr Speaker, the private sector might be expected to play their part, but if we look at the history of development in the last years, especially of developing countries, the State has been pivotal to the development of other nations.
Therefore, if there is any blame for inadequate application of research and
development in our national life, it should squarely go to the Ghanaian State.
Mr Speaker, the State has a responsibility to create the enabling environment for other non-State actors to play a leading role.
Therefore, if an enabling environment is not created or if the result of today is that we have very little research and development taking place in Ghana, it means the Ghanaian State has failed in one way or the other. Research and development is guided by public policy; state policy and by state leadership.
The Ghanaian state represented by governments, both past and present, has always paid lip service to research and development. Therefore it behoves us, especially as representatives of the people, to make this absolutely clear that the State has failed in our research and development agenda.
Even with the little budgetary resources made available to state research institutions such as the CSIR, you would still find out that they dissipate these resources so unproductively. I was surprised when I saw the college of CSIR also running master's programme that are being run by our existing universities.

Are they doing this just for revenue generation or to meet their core business? Every single course being run by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research at the masters level is already being provided by our public universities.

Why the duplication, instead of concentrating? Their core mandate is not training, even though training comes into it.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Would the Leadership like to contribute to this Statement? Very well.
Hon Members, I think there is a suggestion in this Statement which we have not addressed, and the suggestion is how in the view of the Hon Member who made the Statement we can ensure that the money, if allocated, is properly measured.
The suggestion is that we either have to establish a Budget Analysis Support Unit, which Parliament is already in the process of doing, or that we have the Joint Committee on Environment, Science and Technology, Finance and Government Assurances -- that is why I want to hear the Hon Minister for Monitoring and Evaluation.
There is a suggestion in the Statement that to be able to determine -- what is the baseline for determining the one per cent, and whether indeed, we do get the one per cent allocated.
There is a proposal that we have a Joint Committee of Environment, Science and Technology, Finance and Government Assurances to agree on a certain modality. What is your view on that?
Dr A.A.Osei 12:10 p.m.
I think it is in order. Experiences in other countries suggest that even though they have not gotten to one per cent, there should be a target. Starting from where we are now, we would gradually move there, and as a percentage of GDP, it would be quite sufficient.
I think we need to get that Committee to recommend to the Executive to bring the proposal for us to start from the next five years to move forward. So I think it is in order.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Can I ask you to lead a joint committee of the three Committees?
Dr A.A.Osei 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I am already on the Finance Committee, but since all the Committees have chairpersons, I believe they should lead, and we would join them.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
But this is a special committee.
Dr A.A.Osei 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I think we would get the same results if we work in that way.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Very well.
Hon Chief Whip, I think this is an important issue. I think our focus on science is rather low. We can do a lot more than we are doing, so I am wondering, Hon Majority Chief Whip and Hon Minority Chief Whip -- Hon Minority Chief Whip, you are not paying attention. I want to give the two of you an assignment.
I am proposing that the two Hon Chief Whips facilitate a joint committee of the Committee on Environment, Science and Technology, Finance and Government Assurances to prepare the baseline and report to the House in a month. Is that possible?
Alhaji Muntaka 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, we would try and get the Committee, and if it becomes necessary for them to get an extension, we would come back to the House and request for it. But we would try and do as you have instructed.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Thank you very much: I so direct.
Mr Titus-Glover 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the discussion is on industry, how we should enhance our research and development. It is proper that the Committee on Trade and Industry is added to the composition of the joint Committee to make it complete.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Hon Member, the Statement is titled “Parliamentary Oversight Over Science and Technology Development in Ghana, a New Window of Action”.
So it is actually how Parliament would ensure that the one per cent of GDP is truly allocated, the baseline for determining how it would be used and so on. So the Committees that are already responsible for that are what we are putting together, but thank you for your suggestion.
The direction is so given. Thank you, Hon Members.
We would return to public business. Hon Deputy Majority Leader, are we able to do item numbered 5?
Ms Safo 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, item numbered 5 is not ready, but item numbered 6 is ready.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Very well, item numbered 6, by the Hon Chairman of the Committee.
Ms Safo 12:10 p.m.
Mr Speaker, the Hon Chairman asked permission to absent himself and attend upon some other matters of importance, and so the Vice- Chairman is in to present the Report on his behalf.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:10 p.m.
Very well, Hon Vice-Chairman, you may present the Report.
MOTIONS 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX A 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX B 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX C 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX D 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX E 12:20 p.m.
APPENDIX F 12:20 p.m.
Mr Yusif Sulemana (NDC -- Bole/ Bamboi) 12:20 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to second the Motion on the Report of the Committee
Mr Yusif Sulemana (NDC -- Bole/ Bamboi) 2:30 a.m.


on Trade, Industry and Tourism on the Kintampo Waterfalls disaster. In so doing, I would want to make a few comments.

The Hon Vice Chairman of the Committee mentioned very important observations that we made when we visited the Kintampo Waterfalls. We also visited Wenchi Methodist SHS and met the Hon Regional Minister who briefed us even before we started our work.

It is important to commend the Hon Regional Minister for his reception and also all those who were supposed to assist us. Indeed, we were happy that they gave us the necessary support.

There is the need for us to commend the Hon Minister for Tourism, Arts and Culture who followed us there with the Hon Deputy Minister and many other officials who did their work.

Mr Speaker, even though the Hon Vice Chairman made mention of some of the observations, I would want to touch on just a few of them. For instance, lack of information on imminent danger. We observed that for a public place like these waterfalls that many people visit for tourist activities, there was no information that would guide people in order that they would not fall into these dangers.

For instance, we did not see anything like a public address system which could be used to announce imminent dangers for people to run away from wherever the danger happens. Again, there was no Closed-Circuit Television which in our view could also help to prevent danger.

Mr Speaker, it would interest you to also know that we did not have a health post at such a public place and that accounted for most of the deaths that we

even had because if there were any around, some first aid could have been given and transfers made to the appropriate places for treatment.

Mr Speaker, it was also observed that there was no standby ambulance service. That also contributed to the number of deaths that we experienced on that sad day.

Mr Speaker, let me now move on to some of the preventive measures that the Committee recommended. For instance, one of the major causes of the disaster was attributed to bushfire and so, under that, we suggested the following preventive measures:

We thought that there should be a fence to wall the waterfalls enclave so that intruders do not just go there and do whatever they would want to do. We believe that some of the trees were burnt through bushfires and these activities were done by some intruders and it is because the place was not fenced. So, we thought that the place should be fenced.

We also thought that annually, fire belts should be created in order that bushfires would not get into the area to cause harm.

Mr Speaker, there were so many trees there that also beautify the place which we needed to maintain but in our interaction, we realised that there was no routine check and so, some of the trees were old and fell off leading to the unfortunate disaster that we experienced.

Mr Speaker, in talking about bushfire, it is important for us to make reference to PNDC Law 229. There is the need for us to enforce this to the letter.

In doing so, we would be able to prevent bushfire, and some of these occurrences emanating from the bushfire would not be encountered.

Mr Speaker, let me finally draw your attention to two very important points, and with your permission, I would refer you to paragraph 8.4, which is on sharing arrangement of proceeds — Very interesting.

We were told that proceeds from the waterfalls are shared among three institutions; the Traditional Authority, the Municipal Assembly and the Ghana Tourism Authority. We realised there was no law backing the sharing; it was just a gentleman's agreement and that in itself is a source of a problem.

Now, if an institution takes its share, it is likely it would spend it. Whatever is supposed to go into the maintenance of the waterfalls then becomes a problem. So, we recommend that there should be a law backing the sharing of those proceeds and to ensure that the Ghana Tourism Authority gets a lion's share of it in order to enable them to use part of it to maintain the facility.

Mr Speaker, finally, I also would like to talk about lack of insurance policy at the site. There is no insurance policy which implies that if anything should happen to anybody, the person would be on his or her own.

We think that there should be some kind of arrangement so that we have an insurance policy, not just for Kintampo Waterfalls but other tourist sites so that we would be able to reduce some of these harms that we encounter anytime we experience disasters.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:30 a.m.
I would want to listen to the non-Members of the Committee. I want other Hon Member's views on your work.
Hon Minister, you were part of the Committee, were you not?
Mrs Afeku 2:30 a.m.
Yes.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:30 a.m.
Very well. You would get the last word.
Hon Member for Wa Central?
Alhaji Abdul-Rashid Hassan Pelpuo (NDC--Wa Central) 2:30 a.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker for the opportunity to contribute to the Report.
Tourism is a very important industry all over the world. In Ghana, we are still at the teething stage of developing tourism as one of the major areas of our earnings.
So, when the disaster happened and the waterfalls recorded about 20 deaths and 21 injuries, according to the Report, it was a big blow to the tourism industry.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 2:30 a.m.
Yes, Hon Member for Kintampo North?
Mr Kwasi Etu-Bonde (NDC-- Kintampo North) 12:40 p.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity. I would like to contribute to the Report on the Floor; the Report of the Committee on Trade, Industry and Tourism on the Kintampo Waterfalls.
Mr Speaker, as a first-timer, I would say the Kintampo Waterfalls disaster was a baptism of fire because that was my first assignment. And I would thank the House for accepting my plea when I was allowed to make a Statement on this and I think most of the findings in the Report answer what I requested for the people of Kintampo.
Mr Speaker, I do remember that when this incident happened, the Executive went there without the Member of Parliament and that was a worry to me.
However, when this House, of which I am a Member, set up a Committee, I was invited to join the Committee for which I am most grateful. I am also grateful to Mr Speaker for referring it to the Committee as requested.
Mr Speaker, looking at the Report, there has been a lot of recommendations and I would look at it this way; the physical infrastructure that was recommended, I would say a lot of work has been done because of the Committee's recom- mendation which was given to the team that was on the site.
A typical example is the creation of fire- belts. As we speak, the community in conjunction with the Ghana Tourism Authority has started a lot of tree-planting exercises to cordon off the forest around the Kintampo Waterfalls so that fire may not enter the place as it happened.
Also, with the tree checks, most of the trees that were damaged by the bushfire which posed a threat to the people who visited the site, have been removed. So, the safety of the place has been enhanced.
I also thank the Ministry and the Ghana Tourism Authority for having put in place well-trained tour guards who also act as rapid safety response team at the Kintampo Waterfalls.

It is attracting the needed visitors and associated revenue. It would interest you to know that even though the Committee did not recommend a walkway, a beautiful
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
I think that is the more critical question. It is back but is it safe?
Mr Etu-Bonde 12:40 p.m.
The Kintampo Waterfalls is back to life and now safer than ever. So, I invite all of you to visit it and patronise the beauty we have in the centre of Ghana.
Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you for giving me the opportunity.

East): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Motion.

Mr Speaker, let me thank the Committee for coming out with this fine Report. If we could bring finality to this matter and give assurance to the people that the Kintam- po Waterfalls is back, it would give people the interest to visit Kintampo Waterfalls as well as other waterfalls in the country.

If we look at page 3 of the Committee's Report, under “Observations”, we are told that there were encroachers along the tributaries of the waterfalls. Also, some lands had been sold to private developers. In the Recommendations, nothing was said about these and no recommendations were made in this respect.

So, people would continue to encroach on the land and the traditional leaders would continue to sell the lands to private developers. If there are no sanctions and we do not take any steps to address these matters, they would continue to do it and we would revisit the same problem that befell the people of Kintampo and the people who visited the place.

The Committee has done well but they could have done better than this by giving us -- though they had their terms of reference which was about the causal factors of the tragedy -- the preventive measures to be put in place and the lessons that could be learnt to promote tourism in Ghana.

Since it has been mentioned that we have encroachers along the tributaries of the waterfalls and some parcels of land have been sold to private developers, what are we doing to curtail this? What kind of measures are we putting in place, so that it would serve as a disincentive to people to sell the land?

If it comes to the distribution of revenue, the traditional leaders, the District Assemblies and the Ministry of Tourism, Arts and Culture all get their share. The District Assembly looks on for people to encroach on this land.

We have the District Assembly, the Planning Officers and the District Coordinating Director. When it comes to revenue, they go there for their share, yet none of them takes keen interest in the maintenance of the facility.

I think the Committee could revisit this matter, visit the place again and put up some mechanisms, so that people would not take interest in selling the land to other developers and encroachers. Those who farm along the tributaries set the fire but there is no recommendation made --
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon Member, the question I would have thought the Committee would ask was to ask whether we have acquired any part of the land to protect the waterfalls. Maybe, when the Hon Minister comes in, I would ask her that question.
Mr R. Acheampong 12:40 p.m.
Mr Speaker, that is a very fair question. If you turn to page 5 of the Report, they said there should be a legislation. I beg to read for emphasis:
“The Committee is proposing stringent legislation to act as a deterrent to persons engaging in farming activities that lead to bush fires in the waterfalls area and its environs.”
They left the issue of encroachers and lands sold to private developers, yet these are some of the factors that caused the disaster. So we could handle the three issues together. If they are coming out with a legislation, we have to see those things in there on how to protect and
maintain the waterfalls and its tributaries at the very least. This would make the place safe for all to enjoy.
With these few observations, I think that the Committee has done well, though they could have done better than this.
At least, coming out with such a Report would give us hope that if anything happens in this country, there is a body that can, at the very least, tell us what happened and the preventive measures that we would put in place to safeguard future recurrence of the disaster.
Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you for the opportunity.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Minister for Tourism, Arts and Culture?
Minister for Tourism, Arts and Culture (Mrs Catherine A. Afeku)(MP) 12:40 p.m.
Mr Speaker, I rise to support the extensive work done by the Committee and also add my voice to sending our condolences to the victims of the March 2017 Kintampo Waterfall Disaster.
It would interest you to know that upon the recommendations of the Committee and even before it was presented to this august House, quite a number of the recommendations have already been implemented.
I would like to reiterate, Mr Speaker, as we are in this Chamber, there is a stakeholder engagement ongoing at the Accra Tourism Information Centre with the Members on the Subsidiary Legislation Committee and stakeholders in the tourism sector to work on a Tourism Site Legislation, 2019.
The fundamental flaw that we inherited in 2017, when we took office was that majority of the tourist sites were not under the Ministry of Tourism, Arts and Culture. A good example was the Kintampo Waterfalls.
It was in the hands of individuals, and when the disaster occurred, we quickly moved in and instituted a tripartite agreement that was an interim measure to put in some structures pending the passage of a legislation that your august House is working on.
Secondly, because the land was under the supervision of the traditional authorities --
rose
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:40 p.m.
Hon Minister, hold on.
What is your point of order?
Alhaji I.A.B. Fuseini 12:40 p.m.
My point of order is that the Hon Minister has just misled this House in stating that when they took over, the tourist sites were in the hands of individuals.
When we went to Kintampo, she was there with the Hon Deputy Minister when we were told that the Kintampo Waterfalls, at the time of the accident, was under the care and attention of the District Assembly.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Yes, Hon Minister?
Mrs Afeku 12:50 p.m.
Mr Speaker, it is as a result of our encounter at the time of the disaster that we put an interim measure -- a tripartite agreement with traditional authorities, the Assembly and the Ghana
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Minister, do not sit down yet. The Report says that there is a fence wall, but I find that in conflict with another part of the Report which says that portions of the land have been encroached and sold to private developers.
How do we resolve this conflict? If we do not acquire the land, we need to protect the Waterfalls? Is there any plan to acquire the portion we need to protect the Waterfalls so that the chiefs do not sell that part to any other person?
Mrs Afeku 12:50 p.m.
Mr Speaker, as of the time of the Report, that incident had already - This is after the action was taken. The Municipal Assembly, headed by Mr Mackintosh, has already worked with the traditional authorities and the legislation would cure that; they have oversight responsibility.
There is a wire mesh to fence it off and there is also a security gate so the encroachers cannot jump the fence.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
Hon Minister, for the avoidance of doubt, we cannot sit here and make a law to acquire somebody's property.
So, in consultation with the local authority, you should take the steps to demarcate the area you like and use Executive Instrument (E.I.) to acquire and pay the compensation to the owner. Otherwise, if you leave, they would come back and sell it. That is my suggestion to you.
Mrs Afeku 12:50 p.m.
Thank you, Mr Speaker; we would take that into strong consideration and act accordingly.
Question put and Motion agreed to.
Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
The Hon
Minister has confirmed that a lot of the recommendations have already been implemented and I pray that they would continue to implement the rest for the protection of the users of the Kintampo Waterfalls.
Hon Members, item numbered 8. We would continue with the Consideration Stage of the Payment Systems and Services Bill, 2018.
BILLS -- CONSIDERATION STAGE 12:50 p.m.
  • [Continuation of debates from 06/02/ 19]
    • Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Hon Members, we would continue from clause
    22
    Chairman of the Committee (Dr Mark Assibey-Yeboah) 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we ended at clause 20 yesterday, so you have to put the Question on clause 21 even though there is no advertised amendment on it.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Very well. So, I would put the Question on clause
    21.
    rose
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Member for Daboya/Mankarigu?
    Hon Member, I ruled this morning that every Hon Member should speak from his or her seat, so I would recommend that you move to your seat.
    Where is your seat? -- [Laughter] -- Very well; continue.
    Hon Deputy Minority Chief Whip?
    Alhaji Muntaka 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I had wanted to make a plea that in the nature of Consideration Stage, because Hon Members do winnowing, if you could kindly relax that rule so that Hon Members could sit together to confer. I believe it would be helpful to us all.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 12:50 p.m.
    Very well.
    Hon Member for Daboya/Mankarigu, let me here you.
    Mr S. Mahama 12:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am most grateful for saving me from travelling so many miles.
    Mr Speaker, if we read paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 21, there is a disjunctive clause that is used which is ‘'or'', but my considered opinion is that, it should be made a junction.
    Mr Speaker, the new rendition would be 12:50 p.m.
    ‘'Subject to this Act, the following may engage in an electronic money transfer:
    (a) a body corporate regulated under the Banks and Specialised Deposit-Taking Institutions Act, 2016 (Act 930) and authorised under this Act; and;
    (b) a payment service provider or a dedicated electronic money issuer licensed under this Act''.
    Mr Speaker, I so submit.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Chairman, is it “either or”?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, since these are being listed, if we left it at “or” it carries the same meaning.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Hon Members, the amendment is for consideration. I am trying to understand the clause myself.
    Mr Dafeamekpor 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I support the proposition by the Hon Member. This is because it is an imposition that we seek to make and so it should not be disjunctive.
    Alhaji I.A.B. Fuseini 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it should be a disjunctive. When we read it carefully, paragraph (a) is talking to a situation where an institution has already been licensed as a specialised deposit- taking institution. In that case, that institution can be authorised.
    The second one is that the institution is not a deposit-taking institution but it is licensed as a payment service provider or electronic money issuer. It must be licensed.
    Mr Speaker, in the second place, one must be licensed before they can do that. In the first place, they are already
    authorised and in existence. Authorised or licensed to take deposits. To be able to do this on this platform, one must be authorised. So it should be “or”.
    Clause 21 is ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 22 -- Authorisation of Electronic Money Issuer
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move clause 22, subclause (4), line 3 after “18”, insert “19”.
    Mr Speaker, clause 19 references fees and we want this to be captured here, too.
    Mr Speaker, we effected this in several other clauses yesterday. So this would be a consequential amendment?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    So should I make a consequential order or we should defer the amendment?
    This would be the last one standing.
    Question put and amendment agreed to.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Clause 22, (ii)?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would want to withdraw the amendment. This is because yesterday, we went through these and said we would come out with an omnibus clause that deals with all of these scattered amendments.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1 p.m.
    Very well. the proposed amendment in item (ii) is accordingly withdrawn.

    Clause 22 as amended is ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 23 -- Operation as dedicated electronic money issuer
    Mrs Ursula Owusu-Ekuful 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I beg to move, clause 23, add the following new paragraph:
    “(b) the person is authorised to conduct electronic transactions under the Electronic Transactions Act of 2008 (Act, 772)”
    Mr Speaker, in the area of digital financial services, this electronic payment systems can also be defined as an electronic transaction which would be covered by the Electronic Transactions Act, the regulator of which is a national information technology agency.
    And so it is imperative that the Bank of Ghana collaborates and cooperates with existing regulators of existing enactment to ensure that no one falls through the cracks.
    Mr Speaker, while the Bank of Ghana is peculiarly situated to look at the financial aspect of electronic payment systems, it is the information technology agency which would be the proper agency to certify that the technical technological security components of this system are also properly certifiable.
    So in addition to an electronic money issuer satisfying all these criteria which are of a financial nature, it is imperative that the technological aspect of it, the platform on which this service is also being provided, is certified by the regulator mandated by law to certify electronic transactions.
    That is why I am proposing that in providing this service, the electronic money issuer must also satisfy the
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am inclined to disagree with the proposal by the Minister for Communications.
    Mr Speaker, the reason is quite simple --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:10 a.m.
    The electronic transaction does not want to be electronically captured.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is so strange that just when we started discussing electronic transactions, we seemed to be having a challenge of our electronic systems in the Chamber. [Laughter]
    Mr Speaker, the issuance of electronic money should not confuse the Hon Minister at all, because it does not fall under what the Electronic Transactions Act envisages.
    Mr Speaker, when we talk about the issuance of electronic money, it is the power we give to the financial institutions such as the banks to be able to come out with financial products such as the ATM cards; that in no way makes it an electronic transaction in itself.
    It is simply the authority that the bank has to define money in other forms, other than the currency that we are used to.
    As to what happens beyond the issuance, it is a different matter, but we are discussing the authority that the bank would have to be able to say, that when one holds a particular ATM card, one could go to a point of sale terminal and use same to make payments. That is the authority we are talking about here.
    Mr Speaker, I wonder how we would by any stretch of imagination say that when the Bank of Ghana is authorising a bank to be able to issue say Visa cards, then they require an authorisation from, let us say, the National Information Technology Agency (NITA). I do not know by what stretch of imagination we can make this argument, because it does not sit well at all.
    Mr Speaker, most often, we get confused and think that because these banks carry our electronic transactions, they probably own the infrastructure over which those transactions run; they do not. In most cases, they do not.
    Mr Speaker, what the Hon Minister is saying is equivalent to saying that if a bank wants to mount an ATM somewhere and they need authorisation from, let us say, NITA, because that ATM would be receiving Master cards, Visa cards and several other electronic money issued cards, which would perform transaction in same terminal -- I however, do not believe that it is necessary at all to include
    this requirement in the list of requirements that an institution needs to satisfy before it can be authorised.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Chireh 1:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, the amendment, as put, seeks to draw our attention to conflict of laws. Otherwise, we are making this law and subjecting it to another law; it is about authority.
    Indeed, by the Bank of Ghana authorising the person to do this, it is implied that one would use electronic means to do it, but if we are now saying that we must authorise them to use it, then why are we asking for such a thing to be done? This is because the Bank of Ghana is the authority that defines this.
    Mr Speaker, so, unless the Electronic Transaction Act is at variance with this one, it is fine. That one defines all electronic transactions, and this one is the authority for payment systems.
    Therefore, I believe that if we do not do this, we cannot go ahead and perform the functions that the Bank of Ghana is authorising a person to do -- So until the Hon Minister comes to clarify this, I do not believe that it is actually necessary to include it here.
    Again, this is because yesterday, we left a number of amendments that were proposed by the Hon Minister and a former Hon Minister for Communications. But in this particular case, unless there is a conflict between the two laws, we do not need this one here.
    Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
    Alhaji I.A.B. Fuseini 1:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would advise the Hon Minister for
    Communications to withdraw her proposed amendment.
    Mr Speaker, the first requirement for the issuance of a licence is that such a person, which is a company, should not be incorporated as a limited liability company.
    Any company that would be given permission to do electronic transactions under the Electronic Transactions Act, would be a limited liability company. So, that is already covered.
    Mr Speaker, two, the requirements as provided there include that the person engages only in the business of electronic money and other activities related or incidental to the business of electronic money, such as money transfer or remittance.
    So if a company is registered under an Electronic Transactions Act and meets this requirement, they would not need to demonstrate that they have already registered under the Act. So, if the Hon Minister's concerns are that there are companies already registered under an existing law that are doing such similar acts and so they should be issued, the law already provides for that.
    The law in sub-clause (a) and sub clause (d) already provides for that. So, her amendment is probably for the abundance of caution, but that law already provides for that.
    Mr Speaker, thirdly, respectfully, this Bill is consolidating all the laws and that is to presume that before the consolidation, the promoters of this Bill knew all the transactions that dealt with money transfers or electronic money businesses.
    Mr Shaibu Mahama 1:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, I follow the discussion and I would want to strongly kick against the amendment. Indeed, this amendment, if approved, would create a parallel authority. Act 772 has an authorisation and this Bill also has an authorisation.
    If we look at clause 23 (h), it says that the person has complied with any other requirement determined by the Bank of Ghana. So there is no need to repeat this or bring it into this Bill. I believe we could leave that out, and subclause (h) would take care of any other thing.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:10 a.m.
    Are we interested in any other requirement set by law or determined by the Bank of Ghana? I believe this is where the conflict is, but Hon Member, you may finish with your submission.
    Mr Shaibu Shaibu 1:10 a.m.
    Mr Speaker, perhaps when we come to subclause (h), we could look at that, but the concerns of the Hon Minister would have been taken care of under clause 23, in all its sub divisions.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:10 a.m.
    Yes, Hon Minister? The suggestion is that a company would have already been registered under the Electronic Transactions Act before it applies because it is implied.
    Mrs Owusu-Ekuful 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, it is not implied in there. It talks about registration as a limited liability company under the Companies Act. That is not a reference to the Electronic Transactions Act.
    It says that the person should only engage in the business of electronic money and other activities related to, or incidental to the business of electronic money, and that also has no reference to the Electronic Transactions Act.
    Mr Speaker, if I might just draw the attention of the House to the reason for the passage of the Act -- the object of the Electronic Transactions Act is to remove and prevent barriers to electronic communication and transactions, promote legal certainty and confident electronic communications and transactions;
    (b) promote legal certainty and confidence in electronic communications and transactions,
    (c) promote e-government services and electronic communications and transactions with public and private bodies,
    d) Develop a safe, secure and effective environment for the consumer business and the government to conduct and use electronic transactions.”

    Mr Speaker, it is not just the specific transactions that the Payment Systems Services Bill is envisaging. It is looking at the entire eco system of prescribing for digital financial services in this country.

    And it goes beyond the issuance of ATM cards or e-money.

    Mr Speaker, clause 20 of the Bill provides for technology, security and controls. I had some proposed amendments to that, but we would come back to that in the Second Consideration Stage. But even as it is, it reads:

    (1) A payment services provider shall have

    (a) an appropriate and tested technology system which is equipped with fraud monitoring and detection tools;

    (b) a valid third-party certification from a reputable certification authority or body on compliance status with relevant standards determined by the Bank of Ghana.”

    Mr Speaker, by our law, the only certifying authority envisaged by the Electronic Transactions Act, is the National Information Technology Agency (NITA) which is given the power to register and accredit certifying authorities.

    There is no way one can have an electronic payment system without valid authentication system which would give certainty, safety and security to the moneys and financial transactions that are performed on that platform.

    One needs an appropriate and tested technology system, equipped with fraud monitoring and detection tools. It is the National Information Technology Agency which is the only body established by law to make those prescriptions.

    So the only purpose of this amendment is to leave it not just within the ambit of the Bank of Ghana under clause 8 to determine what other requirements are needed, but to look at existing legislation and what has already been prescribed for in the existing legislation and the systems that provision has already been made for it and put beyond the discretion of the Bank of Ghana for the safety and security of the system that they seek to put in place, that before they issue a license to any person to operate, they would have also gone through the prescribed format in the existing legislation, which is looking at the technology.

    And that is why I am proposing the amendment that, that person—
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon Minister, I have heard you. I am with you all the way but I would want to listen to what their objection is in addition to this.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, I beg to quote Standing Order
    128 (2):
    “At the Consideration Stage of a Bill the House shall not discuss the principle of the Bill but only its details.”
    Mr Speaker, we are on a particular clause —
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, she is only justifying. But let me ask you; by this Bill, are we giving, under clause 20, the power to determine whether the electronic system has the security et cetera to the Bank of Ghana? But what clause 20 seeks to do — Technology, security and controls.
    “20 (1) A payment service provider shall have
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, there are several levels of requirements. If we say, the entity needs to satisfy some environmental regulations, they would go to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and do same.
    If they have to satisfy some legal considerations, they have to go to the Registrar-General. All of those would be done. In this case, to issue electronic money or offer a payment service, register with the Bank of Ghana.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    But you have not just ended. You said it must be a corporate body registered under Act 179.
    And so what is wrong with saying that it should also have the license under Act
    772?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, then we are now going to list all licenses that — even the requirements in paragraph (a), the Companies Act, if we took it off, there would be no injury. The paragraph which reads:
    “the person is incorporated as a limited liability company under the Companies Act of 1963 (Act 179);”
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Do you mean you have already taken it off?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have it but there would be no harm if we took it off. But bringing in, registering with National Communications Authority (NCA), National Information Technology Agency (NITA) et cetera —
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Already, that problem is existing.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Which is?
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    We know that some telecommunication companies are being regulated by the Ministry and the Bank of Ghana is challenging them. Let us avoid this conflict by providing for that.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is not the case.
    Mr Speaker, MTN is regulated by NCA. What we are doing, it is a subsidiary of MTN that would issue MTN Mobile Money, regulated by the Bank of Ghana.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    What about the electronic part of the transaction, it would be regulated by who? — A person engages only in the business of electronic money and other activities related or incidental to the business.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:20 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, that is why I believe the Hon Chairman drew your attention to the fact that we are at the Consideration Stage of the Bill and so, we have to take each clause and consider it on its own merit.
    With what we are doing now, we are opening up to debate the principles of the Bill.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:20 p.m.
    Hon Member, you drew our attention to paragraphs (d) and (e) and I am referring to the same thing you have spoken to, and you are saying we are opening up the debate.
    It is the same subclause you referred to that I am relying on.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in my earlier submission, I explained that the issuance of electronic money does not constitute an electronic transaction. It is the power or the authority — Indeed, I know some electronic money issuing entities who do not even own merchant terminals by themselves.
    For instance, the visa platform which allows the issuance of visa electron and other visa products, none of the banks in this country own the visa platform. The visa platform sits elsewhere and yet all these entities are authorised to issue visa cards. It is because that card is the electronic money and that is what we are talking about.
    It is not the subsequent transactions. There are other clauses beyond this which I have seen the Hon Minister file amendments to as well. But if we would want to take all of her amendments at once and at a go and debate them, we are ready to do so.
    Alhaji Mnntaka 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am a bit worried about what is happening. This is because, if you look at the Bill itself, clause 2 talks about “Application of relevant enactments”.
    It mentioned in it the Electronic Transactions Act of 2008 (Act 179) but we would need to be very clear on it. The policy drivers -- the Minister for Finance and in this case, the Minister for Communications -- I am sure these are things they should have sorted at Cabinet level as to what clearly they would want to do.
    Mr Speaker, is it that they would want part of the payment system to be sitting with the Ministry of Communications or they would want everything that has to do with payment to be under the Bank of Ghana?
    That is something that we should know because if we are not careful, what would happen is that we would finish the Bill and we would then have a parallel system running and that would create conflict. If it is the policy directive that all electronic payments in this country should be controlled by the Bank of Ghana, that is a policy matter.
    We should not take the Floor to be arguing as to what should be changed and what should not be changed.
    Mr Speaker, for example, if we look at clause 23, while they were going to make reference to ‘incorporation', they specifically mentioned the Company's Act of 1963 (Act 179). The Bank of Ghana does not control that; it is controlled by a different Ministry.
    But when it came to other electronic payments, maybe, because they have mentioned enactments in clause 2, it is assumed that we would have to comply with those ones.
    Alhaji Mnntaka 1:30 p.m.
    But does it also mean that anything
    that you do that has some component of electronic application must be authorised by the Minister for Communications and its Agency?
    Mr Speaker, I also believe that is what we need to look at. To give an example, the microphone on the console we are using here uses a lot of electronics and other things; do we have to get authorisation from Ministry of Communications to install these gadgets and use?
    That is not a core function that we would be doing and so we did not have to do that. But I believe that the bottom line is a policy drive that has to be done by Government.
    And they should make it very clear so that we would avoid the temptation of just trying to introduce clauses that by the end of the day may distort the purpose for which the Government has brought this Bill to us. I believe this should be very clear.
    Mr Speaker, but I would want to entreat the Hon Minister for Communications to engage the Hon Minister for Finance, so that if there are areas that she strongly feels that if this Act is passed in its form, would take away some of the functions of National Communication Authority (NCA), she should let it be known so that they resolve it at the level of Cabinet.

    Mr Speaker, that would be my general comment on this.

    I thank you.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    My attention has not been drawn to clause 2, and I believe clause 2 settles all the issues relating to other Bills. Clause 2 reads:
    “Application of relevant enactments
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, we have deleted clause 2.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    You have deleted clause 2? Then I do not see why she cannot bring this matter back. I thought clause 2 was still there. If it was there, then it would have been important that it is read together with these.
    It means that you need this amendment, that application and any other. But if you have deleted clause 2 then the amendment is appropriate.
    Yes, Hon Chairman of the Committee?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, the reason for deleting clause 2 was that, the list there was not exhaustive. So we said there is no need listing a few and so we should delete clause 2 — that is the reason.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, if you can put the Question on the Hon Minister's amendment then we can make some progress.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Member, it is because you have finished making your point. [Laughter] Hon Chairman, if you have no point to make, kindly resume your seat for others.
    Mr Chireh 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the issue is that if you look at the amendment; if it was standing on its own as a substantive clause or additional clause, that would have been fine. But where it is being situated, you would have two authorities dealing with the same problem and that is where the difficulty arises from.
    It is because you start with Bank of Ghana and then under the Hon Minister's amendment, the person is authorised to conduct electronic transactions under the Electronic Transactions Act of 2008.
    Mr Speaker, what it means is that after the Bank of Ghana has identified and agreed for somebody to do this, at the same time you would need this authorisation from Act 772 and that is the reason I am saying that if it can be relocated.
    But in its form and where it is being situated, you are creating two authorities in the same clause to function and that would defeat the purpose of this exercise.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would like to draw our attention to Section 3 (2) (b) of the Electronic Transactions Act of 2008 (Act 772). With your permission, I read:
    “Unless otherwise provided, this Act shall not be construed as prohibiting a person from establishing requirements in respect of the manner in which that person would accept electronic records.”
    Mr Speaker, this is under the heading ‘Scope of this Act'.
    What we are seeking to do in clause 23 is to establish the requirements under which Bank of Ghana will accept for an institution to issue an electronic money. Ultimately --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:30 p.m.
    Hon Member, ‘accepting electronic record' --
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, if you allow me, I would get there.
    This is because ultimately, these electronic instruments will result in the generation of electronic records. So, by determining how that is done --
    Mr Speaker that is why I earlier said that we are at the Consideration Stage dealing with clause by clause. So, it may sound funny; at one point, you may not want to talk about electronic transaction; because the particular clause we are dealing with has nothing to do in itself with electronic transactions.
    It is about the authority that the Bank of Ghana will give to a financial institution that it has the power to issue electronic money, and the issuance of electronic money is not an electronic transaction and so is not covered under this law.
    Mr Speaker, that is the reason I am drawing attention to this prohibition in Act 772, that this is in preparation for the bank to make a determination as to the type of records it would accept. So we should not bring in the Electronic Transactions Act as a prior requirement before somebody would be given the power to issue electronic money.
    Mrs Owsusu-Ekuful 1:30 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the Electronic Transactions Act of 2008 applies in section 2 to electronic transactions and electronic records -- they are two separate things. We are talking about electronic transactions here and not electronic records.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, the clause quoted --
    Mrs Owsusu-Ekuful 1:40 p.m.


    The Hon Member for Suhum relates to prohibition from the manner in which persons will accept electronic records.

    Now, clause 23 of the Bill provides for the issuance of a licence to a person to operate as a dedicated electronic money issuer and not a record. It gives one authorisation to operate as an electronic money issuer.

    Now that we have been informed that the Payment Systems and Services Bill, 2018 does not even make reference to the Electronic Transactions Act, it is even more imperative to specify that any --

    We should not pass a law which will be at variance with another existing law. That is why we are the legislative body thus required to have cognisance of Acts and Laws that have already been passed by this House so that we do not proceed to act in conflict with existing legislation that we have already passed.

    It is important that our minds be adverted to legislations which already exist which require persons seeking to conduct electronic transactions to do so in accordance with the law that we have passed in this House.

    All that the amendment seeks to do is to require a person who wants a licence to operate as an electronic money issuer to go through the legal processes to operate and engage in electronic transactions as already prescribed by existing legislation in this House.

    Mr Speaker, instead of having people look at separate legislations to know what the requirements are, it is consolidating

    all the various existing legislations in one place, so when one seeks to engage in an electronic transaction, one knows that these are the processes that one needs to go through. One does not have to engage the services of a lawyer to dig through existing laws to know what else one needs to do to be compliant with the law.

    There are sanctions attached to acting in conflict with existing legislation. Just as the person is required to be incorporated as a limited liability company under the Companies Act, all it seeks to do is to be compliant with the Electronic Transactions Act as well, because what someone operating as an electronic money issuer does is to engage in an electronic transaction and there is an existing law which governs those transactions.

    Now, when it comes to digital financial services, as the name itself implies, there needs to be collaboration between various actors to enable the needs of the consumers to be protected, to have the requisite technology, safety and security systems in place to make sure that all our financial rules are also complied with.

    So, in this area, we cannot act in silos and say -- and this is in reference to the statement made by the Hon Minority Chief Whip, Alhaji Muntaka, Member of Parliament for Asawase.

    Cabinet is clear in its mind that in this area, it has to be a collaboration between the relevant agencies, i.e. Ministries of Communications and Finance, because we cannot act in isolation with each other. So we were clear in our minds that we consolidate all the relevant laws in one place and act in consonance with each other.

    Mr Speaker, so the proposed amendment merely seeks to state that there is an existing law which we have not

    adverted our minds to and seek to clean it up. If we could have done it without coming to this House, we would have done so, but it is incumbent on us even after Cabinet has looked at it to also see that, yes, there is this existing law.

    We pass laws in this House; we propose amendments; we work on them and finally come up with the legislation that would have satisfied all conside- rations because we are the representatives of the people mandated to pass laws in this country. That is the work that we do.

    This is all that the proposed amendment seeks to do; to draw attention and to enable us to -- [Interruption] --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Hon Minister.
    Yes, Hon Member for Suhum?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am happy the Hon Minister for Commu- nications has made it clear that the document, as we received it without her amendment, is what Cabinet has intended for Parliament to consider and so, the amendments that we are looking at today is coming from her as a Member of Parliament and not Cabinet or her Ministry.
    Mr Speaker, I would just want to draw your attention to the Interpretation Section of this Bill and what electronic money has been defined as. Let us consider whether somebody who is being authorised to issue this needs to go to National Information Technology Agency (NITA) for any other authorisation.
    Mr Speaker, electronic money means monetary value which is stored electronically or magnetically and represented by a claim on the issuer which
    is issued on receipt of funds redeemable against cash and may be accepted by a person. That is electronic money. A clause we are dealing with is the requirement by which somebody will qualify per the Bank of Ghana requirements for them to qualify them and authorise --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Hon Member, can you go to electronic money issue, electronic money account and electronic money commerce? Are they not electronic transactions?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, the problem with the Consideration Stage of a Bill is that, we are dealing with a single clause. We are not yet in the realm of other definitions.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Now, we are dealing with a proposed amendment.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I agree with you but the proposed amendment would be looked at in respect of the original clause that it tries to amend.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Yes, Hon Member, the original clause is that:
    “The Bank of Ghana shall not issue a licence to a person to operate a dedicated electronic money issuer unless that person complies with the following requirements”
    So, it is the requirement for being licensed as an electronic money issuer and electronic money issuer is defined here.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, precisely.
    “Electronic money issuer” means a payment service provider that issues electronic money.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    So he or she
    is in the business of issuing electronic money which is an electronic business transaction.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    That is why I asked what electronic money is because that brings clarity to the question so we understand clearly what we are doing. This has nothing to do with electronic transactions, and this attempt to subject it to some authorisation or approval by NITA, I am totally opposed to it.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Why was this law until it was removed? Was it not a recognition that Act 772 would apply to this?
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    No, Mr Speaker.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    So, why was it added there: “This Act shall be read together with…. (d) Electronic Transac- tion Act.” We decided that it is not exhaustive so we are removing it.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in any case, all the laws of Ghana are read together unless you tell me that it is incorrect.
    Alhaji Muntaka 1:40 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, just to be able to make progress, I would want the Hon Minister for Communications to help us. If clause 23 is passed as it is without her amendment, which section of the Electronic Transactions Act would be offended?
    Mr Speaker, if she could help us with a section of the Act that would be violated without her proposed amendment, it would help us settle this easier and faster.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:40 p.m.
    Hon Member for Daboya first and then I would come to the Hon Member for Wa West.
    Mr Shaibu Mahma 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, in addition to the question by the Hon Minority Chief Whip, I would also want the Hon Minister to explain who an electronic money issuer is.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Are they the ones the Bank of Ghana would register? We are talking about those the Bank of Ghana would register.
    Mr S. Mahama 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, not at all. The requirement is to regulate and give meaning to who that person should be.
    The amendment here does not sit anywhere in clause 23. It just says that before one could become an issuer, one should have been a registered company or A, B, C or D.
    To say here that the person should have been authorised under the Electronic Transactions Act, 2008, which would have taken place with the telecommunication companies, on whose behalf they act, this amendment is misplaced.
    If there is anything at all, it should be somewhere else like you suggested in the case of clause 2. If we want the law to capture it and it would be read in accordance with that, then we put it under clause 2 if it is to be re-amended.
    Mr Chireh 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I have heard a number of my Hon Colleagues say that the thing should have been discussed at Cabinet.
    I would want to agree with the Hon Minister for Communications that if we are making a law and we are aware of an existing law, we need to be clear not to pass a law that would impliedly repeal the other one.
    Mr Speaker, in support of the argument, the Hon Minister should think about it clearly. When we want the money issuer to be compliant with the Electronic Transactions Act, 2008, who is that person?
    The other people who have - the big mobile phone companies that have already -- they have to comply with Act 772. So, we are now asking the lower people to also be compliant. If they were not compliant, they would not even be allowed to get the lower companies or subsidiaries to be formed.
    That is why I think that, as we have all suggested, if she feels strongly about this, we should step this down and -- [Interruption.] We could as well vote on it; but she, as an Hon Member of this House, is legitimately drawing our attention to the possibilities of passing a law that could ignore some basic information.
    I think that in this particular case, unless she answers the questions that I raised -- have the telecommunication companies and the others who have the authority to get subsidiaries been compliant with the Electronic Transactions Act, 2008? If they are, then it automatically -- we do not need to add more burdens to the companies that are to issue payments.
    rose
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    Hon Member, you tried to get my attention; I would want to hear you. You have not spoken.
    Mr R. Acheampong 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, when Hon Shaibu Mahama was on the Floor, I wanted to make a correction. He referred to the agents as the issuers. They are not issuers; the parent institutions are there, and they act as agents on their behalf. The parent institutions we have talked of have to get registered.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr Alexander Afenyo-Markin 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, when Hon Yieleh Chireh was on his feet, I noticed some obstructions. Hon Dafeamekpor talked with three ladies, which was obstructing.
    Mr Speaker, I needed to draw your attention --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    If I am distracted, I would draw their attention.
    Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, they moved from their seats to that place, and that is not right.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    From whose seat do you speak from?
    Mr Afenyo-Markin 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I am having a little discussion.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    All right; you can have a discussion; they too can
    -- 1:50 p.m.
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, I do not see what there is to winnow. A Bill that has gone through Cabinet has been sent to us by the Government, supposedly through the Committee on economic matters.
    Mr Speaker, the Committee met and considered this Bill and amendments have been proposed. Now, an Hon Member proposes amendments that fundamentally change the principles of the Bill. So, if the
    -- 1:50 p.m.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    How does that fundamentally change the Bill?
    Dr Assibey-Yeboah 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, this is a Bill sponsored by the Ministry of Finance, which gives the mandate to the Bank of Ghana to do electronic money issuance, payment service provision and all.
    If we go through all the amendments proposed by the Hon Minister for Communications, they fundamentally would change that mandate; it brings in
    National Communications Authority (NCA), National Information Technology Agency (NITA) and the rest.
    I think that if the sponsors of the Bill want to withdraw it, so be it; but so far as I am concerned, there is nothing to winnow.
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 1:50 p.m.
    It is not up to you to decide; winnowing is for the Leadership.
    Alhaji Muntaka 1:50 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, I would just want to urge the Hon Chairman of the Finance Committee to allow some winnowing, and the Leadership would be part of it. That would help resolve this because when we go - like I said, maybe because the Hon Minister is here, it may be difficult for her to immediately point out -- she should be able to point out how the Bill, if passed the way it is, would affect the operations of the Ministry of Communications or any of her Agencies.
    Once that opportunity is given and it is exhausted, when we come back to the Floor, we would have a sense of direction and be able to carry on without unnecessary delay with amendments.
    So I would want to urge my Hon Colleagues on the Finance Committee to just give it an opportunity for us to talk to see whether we would have a breakthrough. If that fails, obviously, we are to stand by the Bill as it came and pass it as the Government wants it.
    Mr Speaker, but I think that an opportunity for winnowing would not be a wasted effort.
    Thank you, Mr Speaker.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, respectfully, the House engages in winnowing when it is clear that if we take
    a particular clause, there are several amendments to it, some of which if were winnowed would consolidate some of them and make it simpler.
    Mr Speaker, I tend to agree with the Hon Chairman of the Committee. During the Second Reading of this Bill, we debated the principles. The Hon Minister together with the Hon Minority Leader were of a certain position, and they advanced their arguments; several other Hon Members also advanced theirs.

    Indeed, the Committee's Report was adopted as what would guide us in considering the Bill. That is why we are of a certain mindset in going forward regarding the consideration of this Bill.

    Mr Speaker, what we are doing right now is what I have sought to draw your attention to, right from the onset when the Hon Minister for Communications rose to move her proposed amendment.

    It is that we are beginning to open up debate on the principle as to whether this Bill should sit with the Ministries of Communications or Finance in respect of which Agencies will have the power to authorise the payment services.

    Most of the amendments that have been advertised by the Hon Minister for Communications and the Hon Minority Leader, seeks to create parallel authorisation processes where without the input of the National Communications Authority (NCA), National Information Technology Agency (NITA) and other Agencies of the Ministry of Communications, the Bank of Ghana will
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    Hon Member, it is 2 o'clock. There is nothing new we are adding.
    Mr Opare-Ansah 2 p.m.
    Mr Speaker, so, this
    winnowing issue, we do not know --
    Mr First Deputy Speaker 2 p.m.
    All you are saying now is that there is a conflict as to which level of authorisation we are dealing with and should it not be the reason we should sit together and agree on it?
    So Hon Members, it is 2 o'clock and that brings us to the end of the Consideration of the Payment Systems and Services Bill, 2018, for today.
    [Pause] --
    The House is accordingly adjourned till Friday, 8th February, 2019 at 10 o'clock in the forenoon.
    ADJOURNMENT 2 p.m.